Bleed Cubbie Blue

DML, whats your deal with Bonds, to call him

a cheater you have to call Aaron a cheater as well. Because it is highly suspected that players during that time were using Amphetamines(sp?) rampantly.

Nobody knows DML, so get off your high horse and enjoy the show that Mr. Bonds puts on, because it won't be going for much longer.

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Mr. Bonds is a cheat...

and good luck with that accusation of Hank Aaron...there is no evident symptoms of his abuse of anything...I think we all know the evident symptoms of Bonds's abuse. It's not a high horse...what's with you and your defense of a complete asshole who would toss you to the side given the chance to better himself. He is a selfish prick and deserves no admiration. Yes he has talent, but he tainted that in many of our minds by being the jerk he is while clearly breaking rules...

How exactly ...

... did Barry Bonds "clearly" break the rules?

save your time

this is one issue where people just don't listen to reason.

the same people going after bonds today are the same people who have never liked him.

as a result, the fact that steroids were not against the rules in baseball has no impact on their thinking. the fact that most of the people who have been caught with steroids, suggesting that it really doesn't have much of an impact, if any, on one's ability to play baseball doesn't sway the critics. the fact that pitchers also took steroids doesn't change minds. the fact that we have absolutely no way of knowing who has taken what and when is lost on people.

barry bonds is without question the best offensive player in the last 30 years and arguably much longer than that. if people want to diminish their appreciation of him because they think they know the kind of person that he is or that his achievements would not have happened if not for steroids, there's nothing any of us are going to be able to say to change their minds.

DSZ - March 2, 2006 reply

Because we think we know the man????????

You have lost it man! He is a bonafied, unquestionable, unrelenting PRICK! If you disagree, then I am sure that your personality doesn't fall too far from his. As for the roids...you're right, we will never agree, you think it is okay to defend obvious cheating and we don't. Issue is dead for me...he is a cheat and an asshole. Don't even need an education to assess either of these issues.

Based on what evidence ...

... do you state that Barry Bonds is an "obvious cheater"?

C'mon

don't play stupid. We can end this discussion but are you really gonna ask what I consider evidence of his steroid use? You can disagree but to me, anyone who bulked up to the size he did (like MacGuire too) were clearly using. You can try to argue that steroids aren't cheating like the other geniuses in here but I will never buy that claim...NO there is no positive test...that doesn't do it for me...he clearly discontinued the use when he had to to avoid detection.

All I am doing ...

... is asking you the question, and your response has been to become agitated, read subtext into my questions, and deliver ad hominem attacks.

You say Barry Bonds was "clearly using". On what evidence do you state this? It appears to be on the evidence of "He's such an asshole, and just look at him!!!"? If true, then that's not evidence. That's speculation.

It's OK to speculate on his usage -- to say, "I strongly believe he was using steroids, because of x, y and z" That's valid.

But when you say it's "clear" and "obvious" that Bonds was "cheating" by "using steroids", without any actual evidence, it subverts the credibility of your argument. It actually portrays your position as being unreasonable and hysterical. Is that the effect you're going for here?

Chuck

Actually...

It was both "clear" and "cream"

WGNstatic - March 2, 2006 reply

i think, azw

that you are assuming a lot of things you cannot know.

gaius marius - March 2, 2006 reply

a couple of questions

that i'd really like you to answer without engaging in personal attacks.

what does barry bonds' personality have to do with how much you appreciate him as a baseball player?
on what do you base your characterization of him as a prick?
did you hate barry bonds before the steroids allegations?

DSZ - March 2, 2006 reply

Because the man

CLEARLY went from a hundred and nothing to like three hundred pounds of purte muscle mass. Don't play stupid man...no there has been no positive test but if you have even half a brain, it is clear the man had some help bulking up to this size...you people choose to argue for the guy and it's like saying "there still is a chance to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" when we all know, even though there will always be more time to look, that the invasion had other agendas...and I will cease there because I don't want to go too far into politics...but you get the point.

Az, you are one crazy guy

seriously what did Mr. Bonds do to you? He is targeted and taken out of context repeatedly. I am not saying he is not partially at fault for his reputation in the media, but the media loves an enemy and a story and he provides that.

I will say you need to separate your hatred for Bonds as a person from Bonds as a player. He is simply amazing, the things he does even when injured, and no he has never tested positive for steroids and until he does I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Who knows what stuff would have been dug up about Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, and other greats if they had been under the same scrutiny that Bonds is under.

The pitchers he faces today on a consistent basis are not overworked like the pitchers of the past, thus Bonds is consistently beating fresher and better pitchers, not to mention that the pitchers are in much better physical condition today due to better training methods.

What Bonds does on the field is simply amazing. You just continue to be an asshole by focusing on his off the field conduct.

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

By the way, according to HOF standards

measure on baseball-reference.com, Bond's Batting stats are 2nd just behind Mr. Ruth.

link

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Well since we are tossing community standards out

I'm gona have to say that you are actually the asshole here for rattling off the same crap that I just acknowledged. Talent or no talent, the man is a prik...so I guess if the media is looking for the story, then him playing the role to a T is not his fault at all. Not really Will...you are the crazy one here.

If you are too blind to see that he deserves every bit of diminished respect because of his actions then you are pitiful. Toss your numbers out because I have never stated that his numbers aren't impressive, it is he who is not impressive...the obvious steroid use just makes it worse.

And being the brilliant opposition that you are, you chose to state that there has been no positive test which was pretty much a direct quote of my post so try thinking things through before you lash out and call others here assholes.

You're defending a prick...what does that say about you?

az, do you think

you really know something about the man because you watch sportscenter?

ask his wife if he's a prick. ask his kids. people are a lot more complex than they appear on television in 10-second soundbites.

fwiw, you might find fatty arbuckle interesting.

gaius marius - March 2, 2006 reply

I know what I see Gaius...

I take what is available to me.

what concerns me

is that you think you're getting very much regarding bonds as a person and a moral agent out of sportscenter.

i've had a number of disagreements with people here that are far more enlightening than watching them on tv for a few seconds every now and again would be -- but i'd never pretend to know that they were good or bad people because of it. people are simply too complex to be reduced so. good people have bad points, bad days, psychological complexes -- and remain warm souls in spite of it all.

gaius marius - March 2, 2006 reply

Gaius

a "warm soul" is hilarious. For me, what I see Bonds do in the public eye, represents what he sees fit to call approporiate behavior. I can most certainly ascertain what type of person someone is by what they think is socially appropriate.

Take Randy Johnson for example...another person i don't think too much of as a person however, when he made a mistake on his first day in the Bronx, he chose to rectify it publically. This to me, is enough proof of a man's integrity.

Bonds has never, and probably will never, take responsibility for his immature and inappropriate behavior. I have never heard him utter a word about responsibility, take a tiny bite of humble pie, if you will.

Heck, even Ozzie Guillen had the maturity and smarts to take responsibility for his omments which were also out of line. I could go on and on about people who depict the difference between proud and too proud. Bonds isn't alone here either, I think Frank Thomas is another one who doesn't know what it is to live in a world where he isn't the center of attention and then when things get hot, complains and moans about no respect and never acknowledges their own role in contraversy.

That is what I consider guidelines to judge another individual on.

what do you

consider his "inappropriate and immature behavior" as I didn't see anything remotely inappropriate or immature that you listed for one of the other posters.

This seems to be personal for you. You called him out for the "Paula Abdul stunt" but you are missing the "why" and it is 1) American Idol is a hugely popular show 30 million+ viewers and 2) it was a hazing ritual of the rookies in spring training. Every team does things just like that. He had some fun. I don't know how this situation made it onto your list.

It seems like you just don't like him, and it's okay. That's your view.

It is that I don't like him

have I denied this?

As for the Paula Abdul thing...I understand that teams do this but not all of them choose to go on a public stage and do ity for a bunch of reporters. Of course this helps his own cause because we have all heard that he has a reality show and wel gee...I guess I can't see how this publicity helps out good ol Barry Bonds. You can probably trace all that he does back to benefitting himself "Mr Bonds". That is called lacking selflessness which is something that I hold to be important when judging a persons' character.

Barry Bonds IS NOT A PERSON THAT I LIKE.

Some people here don't seem to pick that up so they keep reiterating that I just don't like him...why the heck else would I spend so much time arguing with you people?

He is not a good person in my book and I do not wish good things for him...period.

PS And Gaius, I cannot say that I have ever heard of the "good" selfless things that he does...please enlighten me.

emotionally engaged

in reading what you have written, your words and accusations don't add up. That's why you have had arguments with about 4 others on this subject. Your emotions have shown through. You just don't like him and are trying to justify your dislike for him. It's not necessary, AZ. He rubs many people the wrong way. If you want to take on his "me-first" attitude a more apropot argument would be that he won't let MLB use his likeness. But to reference a team event with him dressing up as one of the most recognizable judges is a reach.

This is really a joke...

tyhat was one of many things that I have listed that I do not like about the man. Apparently what we are caught up in is the fact that you don't like that I used the Paula Abdul thing as ONE of my many reasons to dislike the man and you have taken issue with just that. YOU can just say that you don't sgree with the Paula Abdul bashing and then we can put it to rest but apparently you are not capable.

missed my point

you are emotional about this. I am not. I don't think your examples are good. I could care less about Paula Abdul. It was an example of how your emotions have taken something meaningless to such an extreme.

And you must have missed where I basically said, you don't need to justify it as he rubs many people the wrong way. Not arguing with you here, pal. Sorry you took offense to my questioning your choice of words. No harm intended by it.

No harm done...

we're cool.

As much as I would love to continue with you guys

I have other things to do so I am done with this.

have you ever heard

of something extremely decent that he's done?

gaius marius - March 2, 2006 reply

Hey now, azweber

There's no need to get ad hominem with me, which is actually against the posting policies of the site. I'm just asking the question of on what you base your accusation. It's a fair question, isn't it?

At least you admit that there has been no test of Barry yielding positive results -- which there have been of at least ten other players, none of whom are nearly as talented or accomplished as Barry Bonds.

Until I see a positive test of or admission of guilt by the man himself, I will remain not fully convinced that what's he's done is illegal or against league rules. Believe me, I am open to the idea that he might have used illegal substances (and actually, that hundreds or even thousands of professional players, in every sport, have done so). I just need to see more evidence than merely, "He's such an asshole!!! And just look at him!!!!"

Chuck

I agree

Do I think he PROBABLY used something illegal? YES

Do I KNOW he did? Nope - and neither does any of you.

How a guy looks, his body weight, his dick or hat size are NOT proof in and of themselves.

My opinion is that you can walk him every time if you think that's the best way for your team to win the game... but to do it b/c u don't want him to break a record is stupid.

BCurt10 - March 2, 2006 reply

Yo, yo, YO!!!

Clean it up, you guys. There is no need for namecalling. I'm not going to single anyone out here, but this thread needs to be cleaned up. Now. Or I'll put a stop to it.

Al Yellon - March 2, 2006 reply

And sorry Al

I waited a few minutes to see if you caught the asshole comment before responding. It stops now (for me at least).

Sorry

I wasn't trying to call anyone stupid or anything like that.

BCurt10 - March 2, 2006 reply

Well Chuck

First off, I was responding to Will calling me an asshole...not to you.

As for my evidence, I have stated that there is no positive test to prove the fact that he used steroids but, I do however reserve the right to speculate all I want and to base my debate upon that alone.

Since my argument has never actually been "I have absolute proof that he used roids"...then I am not in the wrong here.

Others choose to speculate that a man can bulk up and build a body like his from a measley little body that he was without any assistance. I would have to argue that neither side has absolute proof because a lack of a positive test, when testing began after the time period during which he was suspected of using, also qualifies as speculation, doesn't it?

The only real proof would be a test from the years in question (I would say 1998-2001 would do). other than that, this argument continues to be "hysterical" as DSZ calls it. Bonds supporters have just as uncredible argument as the Bonds haters IMO.

And to answer DSZ...His personality has nothing to do with his talent which I have said before but you won't listen until I kiss his ass like you choose to...secondly, I characterize him as a prick because

a. He has made racist comments to others during his career

b. He consistently drags his son into the media circus that he himself causes by regularly making announcements that lack credit or validity

c.He whines like the biggest bitch I have ever seen

d. He makes comments that lack respect about people like Babe Ruth (ie. "Idon't care about records, I already got his slugging percentage, no one can take that) and then complains that he doesn't get enough respect

e. IMO, he cheated his way to the level of success he has had (whether you agree or not is not important to me)

f. He stands and watches every home run like a prick to show up the pitcher (and yes others do that too and I never think it is ok)

g. His stupid ass Paula Abdul stunt this week that makes me want to puke

h. His reality show that is coming out...to serve his constant need to be in the public eye no matter what it takes

i. IMO, he has taken away from a game that I love, not added to it like you think. I would be just as happy (probably more so) if he never played the game

j. And for the sake of time, I will cut to the chase and say that he is one of the most self centered, egotistical jerks I have ever seen playa professional sport.

And finally...I have always, since I knew of Barry Bonds, thought he was a cocky, arrogant prick...this will not change.

To you Chuck, I hope you realize now that I was responding to Will calling me an asshole not to your post...he chose to break the guidelines first, I simply defended myself.

I used the a-hole in reference to you

since you used it in reference to Mr. Bonds. If you can lay it out there on him, I figure its fair game for yourself.

As to Al, I am sorry for the obscenity, I believe it is one of my first ever on this site, and it will be my last.

Frick doesn't count as a swear word does it?

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Nice try man...

the guidelines talk about personally attacking individuals here at BCB. I believe that even Al has referred to players or other members of the baseball world with obscenities. So yes, I am allowed to "lay it out there" without having you personally attack me.

Now if I called you a prick or an asshole, then that would've been a different story.

First time or not...it is not acceptable for me to endure that because I have strong feelings about a player. If you were related to Bonds (which wouldn't really surprise me the way you jump at his criticism) then that would also qualify as a personal attack.

And frick suits you well...

Get a life man,

why don't you go to San Francisco and harass Barry directly. I can't wait till he breaks the Babe's record and then we will see about Aaron's record.

I can't wait for some more irrational Bond's hating from you and others to come.

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

This is funny and quite hypocritical

" It is really too bad for you man..

I think that you, among others, are missing out on the true meaning of baseball and fandom. It is a lot of fun and from my view, you don't know what that means.

So...

While you guys spend the time complaining and criticizing, I will enjoy the game of baseball for what it is...a game.

PS... you could probably shorten your posts a bit and save yourself (and us) some time if you didn't throw in so much extraneous verbage and simply cut to the point."

Do you get your fun from trashing the name of Barry Bonds with no evidence?

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Both of you...

... knock it off, NOW.

This is the last post in this thread. Please don't make me delete the entire thread.

Al Yellon - March 2, 2006 reply

It's more fun to go at it with you

because you make me laugh.

Ha you're funny!

I'm sorry for you.

See below

why is it so hard

for you to separate your feelings toward the person from your appreciation towards the ballplayer.

you've made it quite clear that you've hated bonds long before steroids entered the picture. but why is it impossible for you to recognize his talent and enjoy watching him play?

you accuse me of kissing his ass. not at all - i make no judgments on barry bonds as a person one way or the other. i find it helpful not to judge people i don't know.

but regardless of what you think of him as a person, i'd hope that as a baseball fan you would take the chance to go watch him play should you get the opportunity. the man has mastered the craft of hitting a baseball with consistency and power in a manner few have in the history of the game. but if you and others who muster such hatred for a man they don't know that it stops you from going to the ballpark to watch him play, i suppose i should be grateful - keeps ticket prices down on the secondary market.

DSZ - March 2, 2006 reply

Grand Jury Testimony

Bonds admitted that he used something that he claimed his trainer said was flax seed oil. They were illegal growth hormones/steroids. There is evidence that Bonds cheated. Just because killing someone isn't banned via MLB doesn't make it something players can do.

DmL

From steroids to growth hormones,

thats a big jump there, some of the growth hormones such as andro were not banned.

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

at that time,

and I believe if anyone was proven guilty of killing anyone, they would be in jail and thus unable to play in the major leagues.

Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Please...

... explain how you are able to make this disconnect. Steroids are illegal. Why is it therefore, okay to use them as a baseball player?

DmL

simple

they were not a banned substance for MLB's drug policy. Not saying right or wrong, but just stating the fact.

I understand

but they were illegal. Steroids are illegal. He is using substances deamed to be illegal by law. MLB cannot anticipate everything. The legality or lack there of has meaning and should not simply be dismissed.

this argument

is the same as speeding in a car. The law is there, but you are not guilty of speeding unless you are caught. And car manufacturers don't have an engine that only goes the speed limit.

Baseball didn't have a policy. He didn't break any rules as it pertains to playing baseball. And he hasn't been found guilty of anything pertaining to steroids outside of baseball.

I just don't get all the finger pointing to Bonds. Aren't the names Matt Lawton, Juan Rincon, Alex Sanchez proof to everyone that a large percentage (75%) of players were taking forms of steroids. These are the little pip squeak type guys and they were popped.

Where's the finger pointing towards Clemens? His body has taken on the same characteristics as Bonds did by age? How about Farns? It's silly to think Bonds has done it and he's one of 3 or 4 guys. I think maybe Canseco and Caminiti were more right than they were wrong.

Well Farns was a football player

and entered the league that size...as for the others, I agree that some take the steroids for production, not power, I just don't undersatnd how you could take the pic of him on the Bucs and put it next to the one, I don't know, from two years back, how you could deny the clear differences. Bonds is not one of these players that has publically disclosed this extreme workout regimin that could account for this.

I settled this with Will and admitted that much of this was anger with the man, but I will always figure that he was on something.

2 points

Farns wasn't the sculpted huge dude when he came up. He was rather skinny. He's puffed out some over the last 4 years.

Bonds has disclosed his workout regimen. It is the hardest off-season workout that just about anyone could go through. I've read articles that players train with him to get ready for the season. One being Gary Sheffield who couldn't even complete the daily workouts Bonds puts himself through. Bonds does have legendary workouts.

One thing I thought about last night as people try to compare Bonds from his Pitt days. Does anyone remember when he won the HR Derby embarassing McGwire in the finals? If McGwire is the poster boy for roids, and Bonds crushed him in his so called "skinny" days, does that change anyone's opinion that the man is just a plain great baseball player and had the power all along? Just a discussion point.

that's vital

to the understanding, imo. bonds hit 33 homers in 1990. check his 1990 card on ebay -- skinny 25-y/o kid, before the workouts even started.

he hit 46 in 1993.

point blank -- he's simply the greatest player of this and perhaps any generation. he's truly ruthian (though i would still suggest, in spite of it all, that ruth's 1920 remains the greatest individual season ever).

gaius marius - March 3, 2006 reply

2 points

I will be needing proof of the Farns being "rather skinny" because all I ever remember was a tall strong pitcher who has thrown with his current velocity all along.

I guess I have been missing the reports on Bonds's "legendary" workout because this is the first I have heard of it.

One additional point...let's say you guys are right and 75% of the major leagues are using performance enhancing drugs...does this somehow make this less than cheating...currently of course since you have said many a time that they were not illegal back then. I mean, speeding is still illegal right, even if many of us do it? My point is simply this, if he did/does use steroids it is cheating in my book...I am not exonerating anyone else if they used them...we have just been talking about one man. Talent or no talent, if he used, it was cheating...I never said he was untalented or one of the best baseball players ever, that would be plain stupid...I just don't agree with steroids...I don't like Palmiero's use, Rincon, Lawton or anyone else...it is all disrespectful to the game...like Rhyno said.

http://blogs.foxsports.com/Dibble/72

okay

since you admittedly just now saw the 2 year old video of Farns taking out Wilson, I can assume you haven't seen Farns from his rookie year. I feel very confident in saying Farns was not 240 lbs in '99 as listed today. But it's okay. I was using his physique as an example, not to suggest he is indeed a roid freak. I have no idea of his use or non-use. I'll drop that point because it really doesn't matter.

Let's be straight about one thing--steroids were not illegal IN BASEBALL from the time everyone suspects Bonds of using. If it's not illegal in the rules of baseball, then there is no cheating. So if Coffee is found to be an illegal substance 15 years from now, is everyone who drank coffee cheating? I can't make that leap.

For Bonds workouts, just do a search "Barry Bonds workouts" and you will get plenty of articles. Here is one from a former player who has witnessed it in person.

Good questions and diologue!

here's another good article on his workouts

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20060220/1a_coverside20x.art.htm

your love of farnsworth

and our disdain of barry bonds is demonstrative of the fact that whether you like or dislike a player is what drives your feelings on whether or not they did steroids.

i have no idea if farnsworth did steroids or not, nor do i care. but the most common behavioral problem associated with steroids is anger management issues/aggressiveness. you got all giddy because you got to watch farnsworth grossly overreact and tackle a guy and punch him in the face. yet you refuse to appreciate the beauty of a barry bonds home run.

truly mind-boggling

DSZ - March 3, 2006 reply

Alright

as for you Socal...we can drop the Farns thing because he has never even been implicated but , I have seen pics of him as a football player (I can't remember for what probably an espn thing) and he was a pretty built individual. As for the coffee thing...coffee is not illegal anywhere. I have to say that the comparison doesn't cut it for me. Steroids are illegal, just because they weren't in the game of baseball doesn't change that. If someone was using cocaine to enhance their game, but it wasn't specified in the major league rules that you can't use it, would you then argue on its behalf, or those who used it?

And for you DSZ..once agin you are making accusations that are false and grossly inaccurate. I base my defense of farnsworth on the fact that he has never been implicated by anyone for being a user. He has never been a part of this type of investigation. If he had, I guarantee that I would believe that he had used for the very reason you used, he is rageful and agressive. As for being all giddy, I am a hockey player since I was five years old and yes i appreciate a good rumble here and there, I guess you are claiming that I am alone on this...I'm also guessing you have never been to a hockey game in your life because many people enjoy this. As for him "overreacting" I'm gonna go out on a limb and claim self defense. If you bothered to watch the clip, rather than chastising me for enjoying it, you would have heard Chip's commentary that explained that Wilson started to run towards Farnsworth first. I suppose you would've sat there like an idiot and let him attack you? Gimme a break man, anyone would have reacted that way if they had any sense, most of us wouldn't have had the same result though...I guess it was the steroids huh DSZ?

Oh yeah

denying the "beauty" of a Barry Bonds home run is hardly what I have done EVER in here. I have argued (like DmL) that the questionable use of steroids taints his success for us, not to mention his personality. All home runs are a "beautiful" thing...some people aren't though.

saw the clip

and saw it live when it happened. there was no running.

as for the rest of your rant, i suggest you carefully reread what i wrote and try again. you have already admitted that you hated bonds long before the steroids allegations came out. you seem to love farnsworth despite the fact that he has underformed his apparent capabilities throughout his career. as i said before, i have no idea if farnsworth took steroids and i don't care.

my point is that your emotions in regards to bonds have so clouded your views in the realm of steroids and baseball that rational argument is lost on you in this particular area which.

nowhere is this more clear than in your insistence on mischaracterizing me and others who disagree with you on this site. in this most recent post, you wrote, "I guess you are claiming that I am alone on this...I'm also guessing you have never been to a hockey game in your life because many people enjoy this." please find where i claimed that you were alone (you can't). please find where i said i've never been to a hockey game (absolutely incorrect). and please find where i said i didn't enjoy watching farnsworth's explosion (not there). reading comprehension is a skill that does take work to develop. but i think if you give it a shot you'll be able to engage in much more productive discussions.

DSZ - March 3, 2006 reply

You are a freakin riot!

"you seem to love farnsworth despite the fact that he has underformed his apparent capabilities throughout his career."

You wanna talk about a need to read...where did i say I loved him?? NOWHERE. I am simply defending the introduction of his name in a steroids conversation because he lacks the implication by others involved.

"my point is that your emotions in regards to bonds have so clouded your views in the realm of steroids and baseball that rational argument is lost on you in this particular area which."

I think most would agree that this is your opinion, and no matter how ignorant it is, you are certainly entitled to it however, a discussion is simply that, sharing opinions and debating issues, not your assessment of my position's validity.

As for your claims of me saying that you feel that I am alone in enjoying a good fight, that you have never been to a hockey game, and that you didn't enjoy the fight...

Reading comprehendion also involves careful assessment and a reasonable deduction of what is intended by ones statement. I was obviously making the point that I am not out of the ordinary because I enjoy, as you put it, Farnsworth's gross overreaction. I was not suggesting that you had never been to a hockey game in fact, the statement's message solely rests on the assumption that you had been to a hockey game so that you had witnessed peoples' reaction to a good fight. And might I ask, what the hell are we even talking about? You just said that you enjoyed farnsworth's fight and previously, you had criticized me for getting "giddy" over it. Get ahold of yourself!

Oh, and for the record, there was absolutely, positively, motion towards Farnsworth on the part of Wilson, but I suppose you were in a better position to asses that than the actual Cubs commentators...

i'm glad you're amused

but again, and i hate to beat the reading comprehension issue, nowhere did i say that wilson made no motion towards farnsworth. in fact, he took a step. from 60 feet away. farnsworth then sprinted toward and speared wilson.

incidentally, farnsworth has repeated the spear in a different overreaction.

i'm afraid this will really have to be the end of my part in this particular discussion with you. debate really only interests me when all parties have some idea of the rules of logic. might i suggest you check out this introductory text on critical thinking. i read an older edition my first year of college, but i'm sure the updated version is as good. i think you'll find it helpful.

DSZ - March 3, 2006 reply

Blah blah blah...

you bore the crap out of me and I think you are rather pitiful with your meager attempts to call me unintelligent to make your self feel better. I won't judge you DSZ, even if you are acting like a child. I can say though that you may want to look at the updated version becasue your discussion skills are rather sad IMO. But hey, I'm sure being the mature individual that you are, you won't even be reading this post because you are done with this...and not a moment too soon. Sad sad man...

Oh

and you really ought to get your eyes checked out too because if you think that Farnsworth made it 60 feet in the split second after Wilson "took a step" towards him, then...well I guess that would answer for your apparent lack of understanding of the game of baseball, and general physics that you so often display in your defensive and often critical postings.

if it was not against

the rules of basbeall and illegal in the real world then I would not hold it against them. That's where you and I differ.

My example of coffee is to illustrate this very point, not to debate the legailty of coffee. I was showing it is something that is okay by today's rules and if it changed 15 years later, do you have an issue with it. You would argue, I think, that YES that is a problem. I would say, NO because it wasn't against baseball's rules.

Did you get a chance to read the link's on Bonds workouts? I hope it was helpful showing his dedication to weight training.

Thanks for the diologue.

that's a really good analogy

to speeding. how many of us follow the speed limit? 25 in town? really? not me, that's for sure.

i think that's very similar to baseball. i wouldn't be surprised if 75% or more were using steroids -- obviously not only to strengthen but as a regenerative assistant over a grueling schedule. and then there's all the other stuff -- speed, hgh, supplements, et al. chemistry is as much a part of the game as catching the ball.

hard for me to single out bonds in that world.

gaius marius - March 3, 2006 reply

You don't get the finger pointing?

Why not? I mean seriously, BONDS HAS ADMITTED TO USING STEROIDS! I'll finger point towards Clemens, Bagwell and everyone else when they testify that they have used steriods.

DmL

dmlichte - March 3, 2006 reply

That's false

he has never admitted to using steroids. My point is, and you know it because you are reasonably intelligent, is there are many more and the game of baseball in this era most likely had more than 50% of the players using some form of "steroid or performance enhancer."

I guess you don't want to acknowledge any other discussion points.

Didn't he say....

he didn't use steroids intentionally? That could mean he did but not intentionally.

Or maybe that's just what I got from the media. I can't really remember what he said.

sparkles721 - March 3, 2006 reply

No it isn't

Go to SFGate.com and do a quick archive search. Bonds admitted using BALCO's illegal substances, thinking that they were flax seed oil. He also admitted to using the "cream" and the "clear".

I'd love to finger point at Sosa, Clemens, and anyone who I think used steroids. I won't do that as while I think that there is something to be said about player's unusual physical characteristics, its not proof. Someone saying that they used steroids is proof and causes me to question their entire career.

DmL

dmlichte - March 3, 2006 reply

my recollection

is he admitted to using flax seed oil. Never admitted to using steroids. And I believe he said he never took the clear and the cream saying the flax seed oil worked for him. There is a difference in what you are saying and what Bonds admitted to. I would like to see the transcript of his grand jury testimony that is locked up. Do you have a link for me? I wouldn't even know where to start.

No...

... Bonds said his trainer told him it was flax seed oil.

This first article has the reference towards the bottom:
http://tinyurl.com/hfjaj

Here's a second article:
http://tinyurl.com/zs5r2

DmL

dmlichte - March 3, 2006 reply

He was't using andro

what he was using was illegal

DmL

Watch out

Willy gets very angry and says nasty things.

Well

... I'm not going to getinto the middle of it.

I just went and checked out SFGate.com. The basics are that the BALCO folks said that they supplied Bonds with HGH and other steroids. Bonds testified before the grand jury that he took the clear and the cream, but thought it was flax seed oil.

Again, how is this not using steroids?

DmL

Careful...he's scary!

http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2004/06/19-as_many_of_you_recall.php

I believe

Bill James did a study to see if a hitter was so good that it made sense to walk him every single time up. He used Babe Ruth in his prime and eight terrible hitters. You can read a large excerpt of the study within this guy's blog.

The results were staggering.

Conclusion? It's not even close. Walking Ruth every time up does far, far more harm than good, even under these impossibly extreme conditions.

So the only reason to walk him every time up is to spite him. If that's your rational, so be it. But it doesn't make much sense baseball-wise.

MikeJ - March 2, 2006 reply

excellent citation!

thanks, mikej.

gaius marius - March 2, 2006 reply

I think BP

ran a study 2 seasons ago and proved that when Bonds walks in an inning, the Giants scored more runs than when he swung the bat.

He truly is game changing and he's a one-of-a-lifetime player. He does all this in the greatest era of basbeall on the field. He plays against Asians, Blacks, Latinos, Hispanics, Euros, Aussies, the best in the world. None of the historically great players can say that.

I tell you what though

he certainly wouldn't hit any more HR's.

I got to see Bonds at wrigley

back in 92 with the Pirates. Someone dumped a beer on his head as he was going back for a ball that was a HR. He took off his hat and shook the beer out of it. He laughed it off, but of course the guy who did it was escorted out. The was the old skinny Barry. I hope he is done. I don't want him to pass Ruth and Aaron.

LT - March 1, 2006 reply

long homers

I saw Bonds last September at RFK in DC, which is Death Valley for homers. After taking a very borderline pitch for a ball, he hit the longest home run I've ever seen. It hit the top of the 400 section in RFK and was still going up.

As he crossed home plate, he looked at the heckling crowd, and paricularly one guy. Bonds put his finger over his mouth and shhhed the guy, smiling all the time.

Bonds may be a jerk, but he's the best hitter we'll ever see. Just look at his numbers the past five years, and tell me who's better. A .609 on base percentage? That's insane.

flyingdonut - March 1, 2006 reply

Maybe I'm a bit older..............

..........but having seen both Mantle and Mays as a boy, I'd take them over Bonds any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

tville - March 2, 2006 reply

Probably because ...

... players make more of an impression on you when you're a boy than when you're an adult. There's more of a mystique about the players who were active when you wer 8 or 10 or 12 than those who are active when you're 45 or 50. (I myself am still awed by the concept of Willie Horton.)

That's why it's hard for us middle-aged guys to fathom that Barry Bonds is actually better than Mickey Mantle was (not sure about better than Willie Mays), or Roger Clemens is better than Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax were, or that Albert Pujols is better at his age than Joe Dimaggio or Ernie Banks were. But it's true.

Chuck

Clear and Cream Knees

Well, Barry, there's a reason you don't have any cartilage left in your knees, and it's not because you've been holding down an OL position in the NFL. That's what you get for juicing.

Jed Taylor - March 2, 2006 reply

This was my idea all along Al,

I like to call it a "season walk". Every time. And that kills two birds with one stone; avoids the hit and keeps him from breaking records that IMO he doesn't deserve to break.

San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - March 2, 2006 reply

Morning shows

We live downstate and I watch SportsCenter every morning as I get ready for work.

I am absolutely sick of hearing about Barry Bionds every morning. It's like it's the only baseball news out there.

drone1047 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue - March 2, 2006 reply

Jeez

I'm no Barry Bonds fan... but in what sort of condition could he have possibly shown up for Spring Training that he would NOT have gotten shit for from all sides?

If he lost weight you all would say it's proof that he GOT OFF the roids.

If he stayed the same as 2 years ago everyone would say he's STILL ON the roids.

He's heavier so now everyone says he's fat and I think I even saw someone say he wouldn't be worth having on a team!

Unreal. This guy changes how teams pitch to his entire team just by being in the lineup. Fat guys can hit well too (see: Kruk, Wilson, my whole softball team, oh yah and a guy named Ruth). And if you are going to walk him every time, well that's about free baserunners a game for SF (at least one of wich will be a speedy pinch-runner). I don't care HOW slow a guy is (despite what Dusty thinks) it's beneficial to the offense for a guy to be on base.

Speaking of how slow he'll be... Why does everyone think that 20 xtra pounds will slow him to a sub-Bengie Molina pace? The guy has been a wonderful athelete all his career - 20 xtra pounds is not gonna reduce his speed by 75%.

I'm not saying he's gonna be even above average in the field - but the guy is getting older. I'm sure SF will live w/ the xtra hits he gives up out there to have his game-changing presence in the lineup.

BCurt10 - March 2, 2006 reply

It's the weight plus the fact that his knee

is working bone on bone. Another thing I have not seen much said about him here is that body armour he wears. I think more pitchers should take back the inside of the plate. But to do that with Bond's bat speed you would have to hit him. But he should be able to take it with that football uniform he wears.....

LT - March 2, 2006 reply

Mickey Mantle...now THERE's the man.

I think that was era of the "Jack Daniels" supplement. Think of how better he would have been if anybody really cared back then that he was - a substance abuser. Drinking? No big deal! A shame he left us so young.

Hey, how about getting back on TOPIC, PEOPLE ..

.. We went from talking about how the Cubs should handle Bonds to lynch mob idiocy over the man. Come on, get back on TOPIC and keep your trash talking else where. I'm tired of the juvenile name calling and finger pointing.

Juiced or not, there he is at the plate when the Cubs visit SF or host em' at Wrigley. Barry Bonds in the twilight of a controversial career. My two centavos:

Pitch to the man, and if his failing physical acuity get him on base and gun him down like the common dog while he hobbles around the bags. I would pay good money to watch Michael Barrett do what he did a couple years ago when he picked off that guy on base all by his lonesome to Bonds. Or Blanco.

raf

cubnational - March 2, 2006 reply

Hey, how about getting back on TOPIC, PEOPLE ..

.. We went from talking about how the Cubs should handle Bonds to lynch mob idiocy over the man. Come on, get back on TOPIC and keep your trash talking else where. I'm tired of the juvenile name calling and finger pointing.

Juiced or not, there he is at the plate when the Cubs visit SF or host em' at Wrigley. Barry Bonds in the twilight of a controversial career. My two centavos:

Pitch to the man, and if his failing physical acuity gets him on base, gun him down like the common dog while he hobbles around the bags. I would pay good money to watch Michael Barrett do what he did a couple years ago when he picked off that guy on base all by his lonesome to Bonds. Or Blanco.

raf

cubnational - March 2, 2006 reply

Deja Vu...