With the first extended stretch of games complete and another off day today, I finally had time to sit down last night and watch "Cubs Forever", the wonderful two-hour retrospective of sixty years of Cubs baseball televised on WGN, which the station first aired last week (it's being re-aired at 7 pm CDT this coming Saturday in case you missed it or want to put it on your DVR). The link above is to the book version of the show, incidentally, and it doesn't specifically say so, but the publisher's website says there's a companion DVD. I'd buy it just for that.
In addition to some great old video -- some of which I hadn't seen since the day it aired years ago -- the thing that struck me most and affected me most were the comments from every single person they interviewed, from fans to employees to Hollywood types to former players, talking about what will happen when the Cubs finally do win the World Series. Basically, if you haven't seen this, they all said, "It'll be the celebration to end all celebrations."
And what that says to me is that they "get it". They understand, all those who have played as Cubs; Andre Dawson, in particular, said he'd want to be in Wrigley Field on that day, because his six years in a Cub uniform, only a third of his major league career (much as we'd love him to go into the Hall of Fame as a Cub, if he is eventually elected, I suspect the Hall -- who now makes the choice, not the player -- will put an Expos cap on his plaque, because he had his best seasons in Montreal), gave him the feeling we all have. That being a Cub fan is special. That being a Cub is special. Eric Karros said it, even playing just one season here: "Every major leaguer should spend a year as a Chicago Cub."
Some of the current players understand this, too, including Derrek Lee, who is now in his fifth year here (can it really be that long already?); D-Lee was interviewed for the show and said (I'm paraphrasing) that the current team is working hard to win for everyone that's gone before and never made it. And I've put this quote from Mark DeRosa in the quote box on the right sidebar, but it bears more prominent repeating here:
I stayed at home the other night and watched that "Cubs Forever" show. Every once in a while teams should be forced to watch stuff like that and realize how much it means to the city and to the ex-players that have been here, and how lucky we are to get a chance to put on the uniform and play in front of these people.
Amen, Mark. You understand. Because when you strip away the stats and the analysis and the little details and arguments that all of us get into on a daily basis because we disagree about ways that we all think would be the best way for the Cubs to be put together, either roster-wise or lineup-wise, the bottom line is this: each of us fell in love with the Cubs, for different reasons and in different places and times, and have suffered loss after loss, year after year of failure. And when they do finally win, all the players on the field that day will be winning for themselves, but also for all those who came before -- and for all of us, because without our support, without our following, where would they be?
May that victory come soon.
There's a somewhat related topic that rumbled through my mind as I was ruminating about writing this post last night and this morning, and that is, that in addition to our support and fandom making the livings of baseball players possible, so does it make the existence of ESPN (and its associated website) and MLB.com possible. Why, then, do these institutions insist on continuing to give us people and websites that we ... well, I'll be nice: that we just... don't... like?
ESPN's top baseball broadcast team is universally detested by just about every baseball fan. This is something that never used to be the case; when people like Bob Costas and Vin Scully and Tony Kubek and Joe Garagiola were the national broadcasters, they were chosen not just for their broadcast competence and baseball knowledge, but because the viewers of the broadcasts actually enjoyed listening to them. That just doesn't seem to be the case today; it's almost as if ESPN is saying, "Screw you, we're doing this anyway."
And setting aside the TV blackout nonsense -- another issue entirely -- why does MLB.com have such a miserable setup for watching and listening to games? And why did they redesign their team websites this spring in a way that makes them bloated and unusable for many users? It's almost as if they have given their sites over to people who have contempt for the people who are trying to use them. And yes, I am well aware that some of you have had trouble with adjusting to the redesign of BCB and other SBN sites -- but give Trei and his team credit, they are listening to you and me and they're making changes (and remember, this platform is still a beta platform and more changes and fixes will be coming).
Without us, ESPN would not exist. MLB.com would not exist. You'd think they'd at least listen to us, their best customers.
I've rambled on long enough. This ought to give you some things to think about and rant about till the Cubs take the field again tomorrow night.
0 recs | 208 comments
And another thing.
MLB isn’t keen on Mac users either, primarily evidenced by the way we’re completely left out in the cold on their Windows DRM-driven digital download “service”.
You also forgot to mention the absolute disaster that the previously must-see Baseball Tonight has become.
northsider - April 28, 2008
I remember
staying awake late at night to watch baseball tonight, but I just don’t bother anymore. I like John Kruk, if only because he stumbles through his pieces sometimes. I always liked Harold Reynolds (sp?), but the guys they have on there now just are not that interesting to watch.
gwood - April 28, 2008
Agreed
I can’t believe that is the best they can come up with.
slocs55 - April 28, 2008
All the Disappointments Will Be Worth It
Enduring all the awful seasons (2006 and too many others), the mediocre seasons (2005 and too many others), and the close calls (1984, 1989, 2003) will all be worth it to finally have that elusive World Series title. It will so much more to us than all of the Yankees and Cardinals World Series championships combined mean to their fans. It takes a lot of guts quite frankly to stick with a team through only a little thick and a lot of thin, to be ridiculed by Cardinals fans here in Memphis, and still be able to have incredible comebacks emotionally when others can’t figure out where you get the strength. We, as Cubs fans, are cut out of a stronger cloth than any other fans I know.
memphiscub - April 28, 2008
Steve Stone on Felix Pie this morning
Stone said to Mike North this morning that it is clear to him the Cubs have abandoned hope of Felix Pie panning out. He went on to say that he is convinced Pie is sticking on the major league roster despite not playing much because Hendry is hoping to maintain some level of his market value in anticipation of trading him. Stone argues his position on Pie is reinforced by those he continues to talk to within the Cubbie organization.
MDBNIU - April 28, 2008
I've heard the same things about Pie.
As long as Reed Johnson continues to play at the level he is now, Pie won’t get enough playing time to get any sort of consistent rhythm going.
But I agree, I suspect at this point he may be trade bait.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Al,
didn’t you say earlier that there is a split amongst Cubs brass on Pie? Has that been resolved, ie, all are now in favor of trading him (or at least the decision makers are)? Or, could Stone be talking just with some of the advisors and not be giving the whole situation?
TC Cubby - April 28, 2008
There was a split, yes.
It seems now that they’re leaning toward trading him. No, I have no specific information, just a sense from what I’ve heard and how I’m seeing him used.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
What, if anything, does this mean for
TTSNBN?
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Nothing at this time, most likely.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Any ideas on a potential target, then?
Another middle IF that could lead off?
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
No.
Why are you so determined to make a trade? Have you noticed the team is winning with who they have now?
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
I'm not
In fact, this is the first time that I’ve mentioned it . . . are you thinking of someone else?
Just wondering, since it’s being said they’re looking to trade Pie.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
"Looking to trade"...
... might mean two months from now.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Alrighty
But then, aren’t they essentially playing with a 24-man roster? With 12 pitchers, that really limits options if there is little to no confidence in him. Plus, aren’t other teams going to figure it out when he’s not used much?
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Maybe.
This is why Lou has to play Pie against certain RHP, not use him strictly as a PR/defensive replacement.
To be fair, the Cubs did face three LHP in DC this past weekend.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
I don't think there's anything sustainable about Johnson's current production.
Right now he’s hitting .324/.410/.366. He’s got a .046 isolated slugging, which is… well, that’s punch and judy minus some punch or minus some judy, I can’t tell which. When his batting average starts to drop (which, let’s face it, is what happens to a player with a .359 BABIP), if he can’t start hitting for a little more pop he’ll be an unmittigated disaster in the power hitting department.
What about his OBP, you ask? Well, it’s heavily driven by his inflated batting average. Meanwhile, his walk rate is only .072, well below the league average of about .086. If you think that doesn’t add up, well, we haven’t gotten around to his Hit By Pitch yet. He has five on the season so far, which makes up a not insubstantial part of his OBP right now. He’s on pace for 39 hit by pitches on the season, almost double his career high.
If Reed Johnson were hitting in the vicinity of .280 instead of .320 (and .280 is a lot more in line with Johnson’s past performance), here’s what his hitting line would look something like:
.282/.373/.328, for a .701 OPS or about a n 86 OPS+. And that still doesn’t cover the fact that almost half of his walks so far this season have been HBPs.
cwyers - April 28, 2008
Seems early to give up on him
At the very least, send him down with some things to work on. I know he has nothing to “prove” at AAA from a numbers standpoint, but he’s a hard-working player with a correctable problem (long swing). If he’s not ready now, why not send him down with one mission—shorten that swing?
TC Cubby - April 28, 2008
A correctable problem
The Cubs have tirelessly worked with Felix Pie on his swing. And it’s not as though fixing a swing is as simple as adjusting the satellite dish on your roof. It’s not. All I know is that I hold Steve Stone in great respect, and Stone said it is clear to him that the Cubs have abandoned hope on Felix Pie.
MDBNIU - April 28, 2008
I haven't heard anything about until he came up this year.
Have they been working with him prior to this? For how long? You’re right that it can’t be fixed in a month. But if he is a hard worker, wouldn’t it be worth it to give him a year to fix it in AAA? Isn’t he just 23?
TC Cubby - April 28, 2008
Well
As one example, Gerald Perry traveled to the Dominican over the winter to work with Felix Pie in the winter league down there.
MDBNIU - April 28, 2008
Stone is smart...
...but he is also a very bitter man, and this has tainted his judgement quite a bit in the last couple of years.
In regards to Pie, it appears to me, that Piniella is trying to win every game he possibly can, and Johnson gives him the best chance of doing that (right now). If Pie was on a team not expected to win something, I am sure he would be getting more playing time, but it’s not easy to groom a young guy in this type of atmosphere and still give yourself the best chance of winning each and every game.
MPH73 - April 28, 2008
I don't know
if Stone is bitter or not but I do know that when the Cubs threw Patterson out there they were accused of rushing him and when they take their time with Pie they are accused of not giving him a chance. There seems to be no middle ground.
My prediction is that if Pie improves his swing then he will be starting by the middle of the season, if not then he may well be somewhere else by the end of the season. Lou hasn’t always been the most patient of managers but he knows talent and he knows hitting. He won’t throw talent away if he can avoid it.
Wait, did someone say Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe?
bubbamike the one and only - April 28, 2008
At this stage of Piniella's career...
...and considering the Cubs are trying to win now, I don’t think Piniella is focused so much on evaluationg a young players talent level, as he is looking for where he can get reliable production this year.
MPH73 - April 28, 2008
I agree
I find it hard to believe that they are putting all of this hard work into him, if they are just going to trade him unless they just want to keep his trade value high. Like I’ve said before, I have seen with my own eyes Felix out in batting practice when I get to work which is hours before game time, and he is out there being filmed and putting in his hacks and working on his swing. So it will be interesting to see what happens
ryanbrixenivy - April 28, 2008
I also watched the Cubs Forever Special last night
It was great to see all those old clips and hear what everyone thought about the Cubs and their fans. One thing I was having a hard time thinking about was about how great WGN was. They were talking about how the 150 games or so they did every year on national cable turned the Cubs into a sort of America’s team along with the Braves. Now they are on WGN much much less, and I am afraid they won’t be on WGN at all in the future depending on how the sale works out. I will probably always have the EI package, but it is sad to think that you don’t have the same basic cable access that you once had…
LT - April 28, 2008
The Superstation
I used to come home from school to watch the Cubbies in Ky. I was in the central time zone as well so the 105 starts i would get home to Lee Smith trying to strike out the side in the eighth and ninth innings and seeing the Cubs fans on their feet cheering him all the way. The superstation definitely fueled me being a Cubs fan and even though I pay those arrogant greed mongers at MLB.com for my mlb.tv each year so that I can watch every game I can I will always be thankful to WGN for fostering my love of the Cubs.
KyCubsFan - April 28, 2008
I'm Also Afraid About Cubs Not Being On WGN
The Braves are no longer on TBS, except for an isolated Sunday afternoon national game. I’m worried that if the Cubs keep 70 games a season on WGN in the future that those games will only be available on the local WGN feed and not the superstation feed. I hope we don’t meet the same fate as Cubs fans IN the south as Braves fans OUTSIDE of the south have met.
memphiscub - April 28, 2008
What is amazing is how short-sighted the team can be about this
Do they make more money on cable per game? No doubt, yes. But WGN is what made the Cubs a national team—how much revenue does that generate over time?
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Keep in mind...
... that when the Cubs were ‘made” a national team by being on WGN, there weren’t as many options to see games nationally as there are now.
If the Cubs do wind up a cable-exclusive team (as the D’backs and others are now), you can still get them nationally via EI or MLB.TV.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Good point
But they would be more easily available - and still a midwestern regional team. Most cable systems have WGN as part of a basic package - EI isn’t part of that.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
True enough.
It is, however, available. Granted, you have to pay extra for it. But you can get it if you really want it.
My position has always been: If you want to watch a baseball game and are willing to pay for it, you should be able to, no matter what your location. I suspect MLB will eventually adopt this position, though they’ll have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Agreed -- you can get it if you want to
But with WGN right there, channel surfers found the Cubs without trying. There are a lot of Cubs fans here in the Dairyland that started watching because they stumbled across the games for “free”
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Oh, absolutely true.
The entire TV sports broadcast landscape is different now. Is it better? I’d argue no.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Which is why I'd rather see them stay on WGN
I really think it adds revenue long-term—just hard to quantify
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Revenue to who, though?
If Tribco could make more money on Cubs telecasts on WGN than on the other programs they’re running, they’d still be doing it.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
To the Cubs, but . . .
It is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify in hard data. I am certain that people with no connection to Chicago other than the Cubs buy merchandise, go to games, etc. because of finding the Cubs.
But, that won’t be convincing enough for the owners . . . the only chance is that the new owner has a lot (a lot) of sentimentality.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Not very likely.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
WGN
How profitable is WGN for tribco? If it is not profitable any chance the new owner can realize the value of WGN to the Cubs and buying it? Or when the new owners arrive do they look into making a network like YES or NESN.
KyCubsFan - April 28, 2008
The Cubs would get more exposure on basic cable, no doubt.
But teams are moving away from that for monetary reasons.
I guess if the Cubs keep winning every year we will see more games on Fox, TBS and ESPN. It is already happening this year. That would get more games to the out-of-state Cubs fans who cannot get EI or MLB.TV.
Fraggin Judge - April 28, 2008
Worth remembering here
Putting on a baseball game takes a truck, a good number of crew people, announcers, backhaul/uplink time, travel – for the announcers at least, to away games – and more. All those things cost money.
Putting on syndicated reruns does sell the ad avails, at a much lower upfront cost. And the ad rates for WGN ‘casts are not “national” ad rates most of the time.
The revenue stream from WGN Cub telecasts, balanced against the production costs, probably makes the revenue stream from syndication strips attractive.
MN exile - April 28, 2008
Precisely.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
New Fans
You don’t find new fans on IE or mIb.tv, I would expound but what else can you say.
KyCubsFan - April 28, 2008
That's true.
MLB management has never failed to shoot itself in the foot whenever it had the chance, though.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
I have to totally disagree.
And isn’t the larger complaint that we CAN’T get some Cubs games even if we really want them? If I buy EI there is absolutely NO guarantee that I’ll get to watch those games here in central Oklahoma.
What they need to do is offer EI on a team-by-team basis and remove the blackouts. I’d pay $100, hell, I might pay $200 per year for JUST Cubs games, IF it was guaranteed that I’d actually get to watch them.
soonerbered - April 28, 2008
What they need to do...
... is just remove all the blackouts, period. There’s no need for ANY of them.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
But you know...
that won’t happen. I’m just saying that I don’t buy EI now because I get blacked out a lot. But would get EI, pay more for it, and get less from it, if I wasn’t blacked out. We have to dangle money in front of these grubbers to make a difference.
soonerbered - April 28, 2008
Everything has its price.
I’m guessing they’ll lift the blackouts and raise the price. Oddly, that might increase the subscriber base even at a higher price.
What a concept: more people get to see games AND they make more money.
Makes too much sense.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Ok...
I guess I expressed myself poorly. That is exactly what I’m trying to point out.
soonerbered - April 28, 2008
Write to MLB.
Let them know they lost a potential client due to their silly blackouts. Maybe if enough people let them know that they will wake up.
Fraggin Judge - April 28, 2008
It will be a sad day when WGN Superstation no longer carries Cubs games
but I agree with Al that seems to be the direction it is going. I consider myself lucky growing up in Chicago during the WGN-only days and so bonded easily with the team. Now that I live on the west coast I do appreciate the ‘free’ games on WGN when they are broadcast, and would gladly pay extra for the other ones if I didn’t have to pay for the every single other one in the country, as is the case for EI & MLB on the internet.
If Cubs games on WGN superstation do eventually disappear l hope the ‘Cubs games’ only option through some broadcast medium, is provided to us without local Chicago cable access.
JFCubFan - April 28, 2008
Cubs Need to Be Careful About WGN Coverage
I know that cable stations evolve. WGN has done a good job in increasing the amount of original Tribune Entertainment programming and Canadian import programming, while, at the same time, still keeping enough Cubs games on to be identified with the Cubs. If the Cubs are consistently competitive, the club won’t need games on WGN superstation to be popular. WARNING! If the Cubs should have a sustained period of being really bad like they had in the early 1980’s coupled with no games on the superstation, you are going to see a real dropoff in the number of Cubs fans outside Chicagoland. Here’s to the Cubs being consistently competitive and having about 70 games on WGN superstation per year!
memphiscub - April 28, 2008
The other thing about WGN
is that the Cubs are the only thing I watch on WGN anymore. Their other programming is not very good. Maybe my watching tastes have changed since the 80’s but I never stop on WGN anymore unless the Cubs are on. (Or specials about the Cubs)
LT - April 28, 2008
One more thing about 'GN
When the Tribune conglomorate is broken up, meaning ‘GN from the Tribune, just like the Cubs band other entities being sold (and I think there’s a decent chance of that happening), we’ll then get the true value of what ‘GN can bring to the table.
It’s always been talked about in the financial circles how much $$$ ‘GN brings to the table since they are owned by the Trib and ‘hidden’ in the corporate earnings aside from the Cubs, which have to be reported to MLB. I don’t remember seeing how much profit Tribune Corporation had from ‘GN broadcasts of Cubs games.
If ‘GN can bring in the revenue nation-wide and out bid [Comcast] for the TV rights then we’ll see the number of games on ‘GN go up.
I also don’t really know how the sale of the Cubs’ interest in Comcast Sports Net will figure into all of this. It may end up going to the new team owner like originally discussed, just like the ballpark but who knows, it’s too early to tell.
Point is, how Tribune assets are sold off will affect the impact ‘GN will have on broadcasting the majority of games again. Boy I sure would like to see it go back to 20 years ago when nearly all the games were on ‘GN. Their camera coverage was and still is better than any other option. Throw in the announcers (think we’re lucky with the guys we have now) and it’s a no-brainer.
blackhawk24 - April 28, 2008
Kind of agree
I like the announcers.
I think the camera coverage has deteriorated in the last 15 years or so. The shot behind home plate during a pitch is worthless . . . impossible to gauge where the pitch is in relation to the zone, can’t tell right away where a batted ball is going.
When a routine catch is about to be made, they zoom in so tight on the fielder, you don’t see the ball—and sometimes even pros boot the routine ones. On throws to first, they zoom in close on the ball, instead of showing a wider shot that gives the viewer an indication if the throw is bad.
And, for whatever reason, they insist on showing each and every runner touching home plate, even if there is a play at another base.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Most of it is crap, isn't it?
But I do watch the 9 pm news occasionally, which is on at 7 here in SoCal, just to get the local Chicago news & Cubs/Bears/Blackhawks/Bulls highlights during the sports segment.
JFCubFan - April 28, 2008
Book and DVD
I would really like to have seen that documentary but I do not get WGN. I am willing to buy the book for the companion DVD if it is the same (or better) than what they had on TV, but the publisher’s site doesn’t say much about it. I will email Triumph Books and inquire about this.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
Let us know what you find out.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Will do.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
I don't have any details, but...
...I did talk to someone who bought the book and thought the companion DVD was outstanding. Again, I can’t recall anything specific, but it did sound like there were quite a few bells and whistles on the DVD that didn’t make the TV special. Even if it’s just more of the same, I’ll gladly keep my butt glued to the couch awhile longer to see longer interviews and story segments.
ballhawk - April 28, 2008
The Amazon.com description
makes it sound like it’s only “interviews”, but a reader review on the same page hints that it’s more than that. Hmmmm.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
The fact that there is a DVD available is good news...
considering the following was posted April 21st, on the Len & Bob Blog on WGN.com:
“Two important answers to a blizzard of questions we’ve received about “Cubs Forever”
- The show will air again on WGN-TV Saturday night, May 3 at 7pm.
- There are no plans to sell a DVD of the show due to highlight restrictions from Major League Baseball.”
MillsChC - April 28, 2008
"There are no plans to sell a DVD of the show due to highlight restrictions from Major League Baseball."
AAARRRRRRGH!!! More stupidity from MLB. Why wouldn’t they want to partner with WGN and make money on this!
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There. That’s almost enough to cover MLB management.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Just got a reply from Ed Sherman
who wrote about the show and book in the Trib today. He said the DVD included with the book “does not [include the documentary]. They couldn’t include it because of MLB copyright laws.”
[So MLB makes the laws now? ]
So I guess the DVD includes interviews, and maybe some non-game footage of Wrigley Field and players, coaches, etc. I bet it’s the actual games (and brief, nostalgic clips of them) that the lawyers are so incredibly protective about.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
Two more replies
The one from Triumph Books said “It’s a shortened version with much of the same content”, but then, they are trying to sell the book.
WGN Sports’ reply said “I’m afraid not. Licensing restrictions prevent us from doing so.”
JohnM - April 29, 2008
More like greedy idiots.
The MLB media guys probably want to keep highlights to their own DVD’s . That way they keep all the profits.
Fraggin Judge - April 28, 2008
That'd be fine.
The point is, they don’t want a DVD of this at all. Why wouldn’t they want sales of this? They could actually make money.
Sorry, I forgot. Makes too much sense.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
Exactly, they are greedy idiots.
Instead of making a profit through several means they stick to just one.
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
youtube
I get so frustrated with their refusal to allow highlights on youtube as well. You’d think they’d use that as a forum to generate interest in baseball, especially since their stock of on demand videos is barely existent.
dr stabbingworth - April 29, 2008
Agreed.
Their lawyers are so obsessed with “protecting copyrights” that they don’t realize the amount of free advertising they’d get if they’d just allow this.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
Meanwhile, the NBA produces free highlights for Hulu and other web media.
Free publicity that creates fans who will buy all the other stuff. It makes too much sense for MLB to understand it.
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Announcers Universally Detested?
I don’t know, but I don’t think ESPN’s lead announcing team is universally detested. I like Jon Miller a lot. I’m not a big fan of Joe Morgan, but he’s not the worst announcer out there and he has a pleasant enough voice. He’s a little too old-fogey-ish but like I said, I’ve heard worse. Like Tim McCarver. He’s way worse and should have been axed 10 years ago. I don’t know anybody that likes him. I’m neutral on Joe Buck. Like him for the most part, but he has a few annoying mannerisms as well.
MikeJ - April 28, 2008
Morgan
McCarver is redundant, but at least he tries to get his facts right.
Morgan is an arrogant, bitter man. I’m sure a lot of Cubs fans dislike him because of his tone of voice whenever discussing Sandberg, but it goes beyond that for me.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
I agree with the contempt for Sandberg part
...and that’s one of the things I dislike about him.
He’s just sour because an inferior player won more GGs and hit more HRs than him. Yes, Morgan, you were better. (Don’t get me wrong, I love Ryno – but Morgan was better.)
Anyways, if I were ESPN I’d replace him with Steve Stone. And if I were Fox I’d replace McCarver with Bob Brenly. I know they both have jobs and all, and I also know I’m probably biased because they are/were Cubs announcers. It just seems they are ultimate pros, always entertaining, and at least in Brenly’s case – humble.
MikeJ - April 28, 2008
Not old enough to have seen Morgan play
But fielding wise, Sandberg’s stats seem to show he was better in that aspect.
I think the homerun record really bugged Morgan, and that he didn’t want more second basemen in the HOF. Kind of like Mike Schmidt’s feelings on Santo.
For someone who has spent his whole life around the game, though, Morgan’s lack of knowledge is laughable. Gary Varsho’s signature line is a pretty typical Morgan observation – and how about that nonsense last year with the one spot down the RF line where the wind is opposite of the rest of the park – and forgetting that Castillo started his career in the NL . . . .
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
Having seen both Morgan and Sandberg
Sandberg is far and away the better player, Morgan being, at best, borderline HOF. The reason Morgan is in the HOF is because he played on one of the best offensive teams in the history of the game. Had he played for the Cubs, he wouldn’t have even sniffed HOF. As an analyst, he really stinks, seems that his research is done by watching the previous game.
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
I forgot to add
Morgan played Houston, Cincy and Philadelphia, all with artificial turf.
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
You have got to be
the first person to ever think hitting in the Astrodome in 1968 was an advantage.
Josh Timmers - April 28, 2008
Well theres always a first
Hammer - April 28, 2008
Well, not really....
bad park for home runs, not for hits. You just cannot deny the advantage of hitting on artificial turf, a carpet laid over concrete…..
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
Someone remind me later...
...and when I get home tonight I’ll see if I can pull up the component park factors for the Astrodome in the late sixties and we’ll take a look at this.
cwyers - April 28, 2008
Wrong
Even for hits the Astrodome was worse than normal. A hitter might get an occasional ball quickly getting through the infield but the ball didn’t carry in the outfield. Wrigley is a significantly better hitting park.
As to your original point, an argument could be made regarding fielding but hitting-wise Morgan was better. He is a legit HOF-er.
As an announcer is awful.
rlpete - April 28, 2008
I don't like Joe Morgan as an announcer
but to say that he’s a borderline HOF is absolutely silly. He won 2 MVP awards, His lifetime OBP is .392 as opposed to Ryno’s .344, and Morgan did it in a much, much worse offensive era. Heck, Morgan played seven seasons in the Astrodome in the 1960s, which was about the worst hitting environment in baseball since Babe Ruth entered the game.
I really hate this kind of statement. It makes it absolutely easy to dismiss any criticism of Morgan as an announcer as simply having a personal vendetta against him. Joe Morgan may have been the greatest second baseman to play the game, and denying that only gives ESPN and his other defenders as an announcer ammunition that criticism of him is invalid.
Jeez, the man called them the “California Angels” at least three times last night, and they haven’t been that since 1996.
Josh Timmers - April 28, 2008
The big irony is that...
...sabermetrics has a use for Joe Morgan, even if Joe Morgan has no use for sabermetrics. If you use the old-school triple crown stats – average, home runs, and RBIs – Morgan is a very unimpressive player – career .271, 268 HR, 1133 isn’t all that. But his career triple slash of .271/.392/.427 flippingly awesome for a second baseman, especially given the era he played in. He never lead the league in average, but lead the league in OBP in four seasons and OPS in two.
Joe Morgan the player was the poster child for everything that people like Bill James and Pete Palmer were talking about. And that’s the real tragedy of Morgan the analyst – Joe Morgan has no idea why Joe Morgan was any good at baseball.
cwyers - April 28, 2008
Sort of like Dusty Baker...
... who was a fairly patient hitter as a player (.347 lifetime OBA). I still can’t figure out why he wouldn’t have taken this philosophy into managing.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Exactly
Morgan was a great player and he realizes it only for the wrong reasons.
Josh Timmers - April 28, 2008
Morgan Had BB's, SB's, and Gold Gloves
I only remember seeing Morgan play on TV with the Giants and Phillies late in his career, so I don’t remember his glory days with the Reds. He’s mostly a name on a stat sheet to someone my age. I am impressed with his 1865 walks, 689 steals, and 5 gold gloves. He should be a Hall of Famer. His seasons in Cincy from 1972-1977 were remarkable. I just feel he was out of line for pointing out Sandberg hadn’t been in any World Series implying that Ryno lacked some leadership quality that would have inspired other players to raise their level of play to get the Cubs to the World Series.
memphiscub - April 28, 2008
I liked Morgan as a player
I remember doing that arm flap many times as a kid when I was batting. As well as doing the Willie Stargell windmill, crouching down like pete Rose, choking up like Eddie Brinkman, and holding that bat way up high like Bobby Tolan.
But I’ve really grown to dislike him as an announcer, fueled mostly by what I see/hear on the broadcasts, but also willing to admit that his arrogant personality probably adds to the fire. However, if he is indeed referring to the “California” Angels, I may have to dial down my dislike a few notches. Anyone that still calls them the California Angels (or Anaheim) gets points in my book.
ballhawk - April 28, 2008
Elbow flap and windmill - uh huh
Surely you also did the jaunty right elbow extension, ala Mr. Cub?
JohnM - April 28, 2008
sadly no...
growing up in Ohio, I was pretty much limited to Indians, Reds, and Tigers games on TV, and with relatives in Pittsburgh, plenty of Pirates games in person.
And to answer your next question – no, we didn’t get WGN. That would mean getting cable, which my parents STILL don’t have. Heck, they were probably the last residence in Ohio to get touch-tone phone lines. Before that, I used to have to go to the corner market and use the pay phone to check messages when I visited.
ballhawk - April 28, 2008
That's no excuse
I saw Stargell and Morgan so much because the Reds and Pirates played the Cubs so often. Or, the Pirates played ‘em a lot, and I watched the Reds in so many post seasons. OK, point taken.
JohnM - April 29, 2008
Morgan Had Better Talent Around Him
Morgan has pointed out that Sandberg did not play on any World Series teams. Well, Joe, I don’t think you would have played on any World Series teams either had it not been for guys like Pete Rose and Tony Perez (in both Cincy and Philly), not to mention the other members of the Big Red Machine, and guys like Mike Schmidt and Steve Carlton with the 1983 Phillies. Yeah, I know Ryno did not field that hot grounder in the 7th inning of game 5 in the 1984 NLCS. That was a tough play that I don’t think Morgan would have made. Sandberg still hit well in his 2 NL playoff series and did his part to get the Cubs to the World Series. I liked the Penguin, Bull Durham, and Jody, but they didn’t exactly stack up to the likes of Pete Rose, Tony Perez, and Johnny Bench as a supporting cast.
memphiscub - April 28, 2008
Playing in the WS
MemphisCub, I agree with you.
To take it a step further—evaluating a player based on WS/post season appearances is laughable. By that “logic”, Lonnie Smith is a HOF and Ernie Banks is not.
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
So much of this is really dependent on the team you have around you.
Morgan was only a slightly better than average second baseman for the Astros for several years before he was traded to the Reds. There’s no doubt in my mind that playing for those great mid-seventies Reds’ teams helped him enormously.
Sandberg, on the other hand, spent the bulk of his career playing on mediocre (or worse) Cubs teams. He won the MVP during one of the few seasons where he had an excellent team around him. How would Morgan have fared playing second for the cubs in the 90’s? Probably a lot like he did for the Astros in the 60’s.
Btw-My personal favorite piece if Morgan idiocy behind the mike was a few years ago when he informed the viewers that the outfield basket in Wrigley Field was known as the “Banks basket” because of all the home runs Ernie supposedly hit there. Apparently, Joe hadn’t been paying attention when he played in Chicago thoughout the sixties or he would’ve realized the basket wasn’t put in until 1970-the second to last year of Ernie’s career.
bluekoolaide - April 28, 2008
I believe his exact words to describe the basket were
“Banks Boulevard”
JohnM - April 28, 2008
That was the comment that sent me off the ledge..
...he actually said “Ernie was able to hit 500 HR’s because of that basket”
Not only were his facts aburdly off the mark as mentioned above, he completely and totally diminished a HOF career in one sentence on national TV
JB 23 - April 28, 2008
And, as I said, the fact that he
actually played in Wrigley field for years BEFORE they put the basket in shows that he’s either A) not very bright or observant or B)just a complete jerk who loves minimizing other players whether the facts support it or not.
Also-his not showing up at Ryno’s induction ceremony (I think it wa sthe only one he’s missed since his induction) showed me, once and for all, what a petty, jealous jerk he is.
bluekoolaide - April 28, 2008
I agree
I don’t know if there is a way to project what a player would have done in a particular line up from a different era. I see stats such as park adjustment that I just can’t imagine how they were done. So, is there a way to plug Sandberg into the lineups Morgan played in (or Morgan into Sandberg’s lineups) and get an inkling of how each career would have changed?
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
I didn’t realize that there was contempt for Jon Miller either...
....I think Miller is an excellent broadcaster, especially considering how he has to carry the mumbling idiotic ramblings of Joe Morgan. (kind of reminds me of how Chip would have to cover for Joe Carter a few years ago)
I have met Miller on several different occasions and find him to be a warm and genuine person and a passionate baseball fan.
JB 23 - April 28, 2008
I think Miller's a bit full of himself.
Such as, the way he pronounces “AAAAAAHN-druw Jones” even though Jones has said he doesn’t want his name pronounced that way.
Maybe I was too strong in saying “universally detested”. However, I have met quite a number of people who don’t like either Miller or Morgan.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
I've always thought he was overly dramatic
“Pick off throw to first . . . SAAAAFEE!!!!”
as the runner goes in standing up.
Ok, maybe not that bad, but . . . .
Shanghai Badger - April 28, 2008
My thoughts exactly.
I absolutely hate the way Miller deepens his voice when something exciting happens. (“And he is…(voice drops) OUT!!!”) It comes off as phony and affected. And Morgan’s bitter idiocy needs no further comment.
daver - April 28, 2008
This is how I feel about Miller, too.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
He (gasp) always (gasp) sounds (gasp)
like he is (gasp) running out of (gasp) breath(!), because it’s just so damn (gasp) exciting!
A Giants fan friend said he’s better on the local broadcasts, though.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
I don't like
the way Jon overpronounces “foreign” names like Andruw, just about any Latin name, and others. He tries to adopt an accent just for the name, and it comes off to me like more of a joke than a serious attempt at authenticity.
northsider - April 28, 2008
Andruw isn't a foreign name, obviously.
But he does a similar effect on others.
northsider - April 28, 2008
Well..
... “Andruw”, as spelled that way, was given to Jones by his parents in Curacao. But he’s said many times the only reason it comes out “AAAHN-druw” when HE says it is because of his accented English. He’s said that he wants broadcasters to say “Andrew”.
Miller continues to ignore him.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Silly ballplayer.
“I know how to broadcast, you stick to hitting the ball!”
northsider - April 28, 2008
Understand the points made on Miller....its seems as if
...he does this stuff more on the Sunday night broadcasts then for the Giants games. I think part of that is covering for Joe’s incoherent mumbling and “selling” the product.
He certainly should be aware of how players want there names pronounced. That surprises me…It always seemed like he was making an effort to pronouce them correctly with the native accents.
JB 23 - April 28, 2008
Miller...
I’ve got a buddy who is a die-hard Giants fan from the Bay Area and says Miller is far worse on local coverage than the ESPN games. I guess he thinks he’s fluent in Spanish and will spend a fair amount of time speaking Spanish when describing the action. Maybe that’s where his exaggerated pronunciations come from during the ESPN broadcast. Either way, he and Morgan drive me up a wall.
cubbot - April 28, 2008
Like I said, pretentious.
n/t
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Morgan pulls Miller down becouse Miller
is always scrambling to cover Morgan’s idiocy.
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
I can't stand Fire Joe Morgan.com
And here’s a perfect example why. http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2005/07/ryne-sandberg-brief-but-idiotic.html
Look maybe Joe Morgan or Ryno or many others shouldn’t be talking about the sport they played or be put out there for mass consumption. Guess what though we can all laugh at and joke about and pick apart these guys and there announcing but we aren’t getting their jobs. For every cwyers there are 10 people who can’t follow his graphs or formulas. It takes all kinds and for every one who wishes Joe would use more sabermetrics for the fans think about the front office or managers who haven’t embraced an iota of these stats. He is speaking to the public and guess what I bet Garagiola never mentioned OPS+ or any saber stat. I heard him many times but when I did I’m sure I was more impressed about his description of how someone positioned themselves and the intelligence they showed on a daily basis or how he fields his position well than the number of pitches he averaged per AB or his zone rating.
Don’t get me wrong I love all of that info I THINK ITS IMPORTANT. I don’t think its Joe Morgan’s job to introduce it to me on a national TV broadcast. I think its his job to talk about the history of the game, and talk about baseball to me as if I’m an idiot… IF HE BUILDS IT I WILL COME… and then when I do I’ll learn more and figure out what OPS+ is on my own.
KyCubsFan - April 28, 2008
Just to be straight:
1.) You went to a website you hate.
2.) You not only read the content on the front page, you searched the archives of the site you hate.
3.) You not only searched the archives, you went back 3 whole years to mine out one of their lesser pieces.
Why, pray tell? If you hate the site, don’t visit it. And certainly don’t comb the archives of the site you hate just to come back to a blog you do like and write a slam piece about the blog you don’t like.
gary varsho - April 29, 2008
hmm what was my point
Reminder don’t type so much when tired, and I wasn’t trying to slam the blog fire joe morgan I had googled Joe Morgan and Ryne Sandberg (because people were slamming Morgan for his Sandberg comments) and found this article and it just annoyed me to no end.
Wait that was my point (rather poorly made and truly just remembered not attempting sarcasm) it annoyed me like the rest of the previous 40 posts commenting on Joe Morgan’s HOF worth by pointing out he doesn’t believe in sabermetrics or he’s says something stupid.
KyCubsFan - April 29, 2008
I didn't go back and read them all, but
I don’t think anyone questioned the HOF credentials. Just said that he’s a lousy announcer – and a bitter, bitter man.
Shanghai Badger - April 29, 2008
Cubs Forever book question
I will be placing an order for the book in a few days, but I am curious about the actual content of the DVD attached with the book. I read somewhere that there were some extended intervews on that disk, but does anyone know if the actual documentary in its entirety is on there as well? For those of us without access to WGN-TV, that would make this purchase much more rewarding.
Qixotl - April 28, 2008
John M above...
... said he’d try to find out from Triumph Books and get back to us.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
The book
I have the book but haven’t watched the DVD yet. I don’t think it’s the whole special.
It’s going to be reaired on May 3rd along with the special about WGN as a whole. I highly recommend both.
I’m sure we would have volunteers here who could send tapes of the special to out of town WGN less friends.
If you grew up here especially if you are over 35 I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE special on WGN as a whole as well.
puckishcubsfan - April 28, 2008
"The special on WGN as a whole"?
Was there another documentary on WGN in general?
JohnM - April 28, 2008
Yes
Yes it aired right after the Cubs special. I laughed, I cried, I sang along with the old commercials.
puckishcubsfan - April 28, 2008
Only lived in Chicago
for four years in the mid-nineties, but upon seeing Bozo on that special I yelled, “The game with the six cups!” I was surprised I not only remembered the game, but the precise number of cups as well.
neverAcquiesce - April 28, 2008
the grand prize game!
you got a new bike if you got the 6th one.
anormal - April 28, 2008
it was a CRISP 100 DOLLAR BILL
Hammer - April 28, 2008
that too
i thought it was both. maybe the bike was for bucket #5?
i sat in the audience once as a kid.
anormal - April 28, 2008
no clue
were both probably right.
Hammer - April 28, 2008
i was curious so i looked it up.
from http://www.chicagotelevision.com/wgntv.htm: “Grand Prize Game in which two contestants, a boy and girl, attempt to land a ping pong ball into six buckets lined up in a row. Each bucket would bring you better and better toys until the famed bucket #6 which, if won, would bring you a Schwinn bike and all the silver dollars put in the bucket since the last winner.”
i have no memory of the part with the silver dollars though…. blast from the past.
anormal - April 28, 2008
That's correct about the silver dollars.
They used to put more in each day until someone won them. I have no idea what the largest amount won was.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Cool
But I speficially remember them actually putting a “brand new crisp 100 dollar bill”
Oh well Bozo, is well, a Bozo
Hammer - April 28, 2008
That might have been in later years.
When I was a kid it was silver dollars.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
I remember
the CRISP hundred dollar bill as well.
neverAcquiesce - April 28, 2008
I remember the silver dollars when I watched
and the crisp C-note when my kids watched.
JohnM - April 28, 2008
yes!
i do remember the 100 dollar bill now! it was when you mentioned how they would put it IN the bucket that my memory was jarred. wow, it’s funny how how memories work.
by the way, i was watching bozo in the early 80s (born in 75).
anormal - April 28, 2008
That probably answers the question.
In the 60’s when I was a kid, it was silver dollars. They may have changed it by the 80’s.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Yep, I'd love to see that too
Can anyone “upload” something like that?
JohnM - April 28, 2008
Winning it all
Over the years some of my friends have observed I a normally very talkative, emotional person (I know this shocks all of you) have trouble expressing how much the Cubs winning the world series would mean to me.
I once heard someone say this “There is a time when expressing how much something means to you causes you problems. When it means nothing and when it means absolutely everything”
Guys I cried when the Bears won the NFC title game in 06. And this was after I had seen the Bears win the Super Bowl already and while I love the Bears it’s not quite as deep and abiding as my love of the Cubs.
When it’s our turn the cheers will be flowing and I’m sure for many of us so will the tears. We will remember all the good times and all the bad. We will think of loved ones who are no longer with us who would have loved to see it happen. We will think of Harry and Jack and Vince and Lou.
I know if I hadn’t lost it already I will lose it.
1 When they change that AC sign in back of the park.
2. When they present the trophy. I heard in 03 MacPhail had told Selig he wanted it presented first to Santo or Banks before anyone else.
3. If they take any kind of victory lap.
My personal dream scenario would be 13th inning game 7 at home. Kerry pitches the top of the inning and then hits a homerun to win it in the bottom of the 13th hitting for himself.
And I fully plan to have one recorder recording Fox and another recorder with Fox video but the WGN radio feed fed into the recorder.
And every VCR we have on every tv recording every channel for all the postgame.
And to be sure if I’m at the game at least 3 friends backing up the recording in case something would go wrong at home like a power outage.
And I’m sure PAt Hughes will do better than Jeff Joniak’s goofy “Believe me now and I’ll tell you later we’re going to Miami”
puckishcubsfan - April 28, 2008
Also trouble
I wonder if some of us who have trouble sometimes it’s because we are logged in on more than one computer (at work and at home for example). If I forget to sign off at work I have trouble at home sometimes.
puckishcubsfan - April 28, 2008
I have no trouble with that.
I am signed in on three computers at home and at least four different ones at work. Have never had an issue.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Are other people having trouble logging in at work too?
I know I sure do, I have to find round about ways to get to this site while at work…I was just assuming that our network was trying to block this site…
maryliz983 - April 28, 2008
Stuff
Well I have been on vacation in Bermuda (nice place but the most expensive out of the tropical islands I have visited) the past week and thus been out of touch with BCB but was able to keep up on the Cubs through 1 WGN game and my brother.
Anyways its good to see the team is doing well, on a bit of a slide but they will turn it around tomorrow, I will be there and can’t wait. I’m most happy to see Lilly and Hill are looking better, I see the Pie debate is still raging, I’m done putting my opinion in on that one.
slocs55 - April 28, 2008
McCarver
So Saturday, Jeter is on first with a questionable quadriceps, and ARod is at the plate with a questionable quadriceps, and Rodrigeuz is facing a lefty pitcher.
No hit and run.
So MacCarver, in his glorious baseball wisdom, states that IN SPITE of the fact that Jeter has an injured quad, there is no reason he should have not been running.
What a bag of wind. I had to turn the sound off.
Tekboy - April 28, 2008
Great article today Al
My thoughts exactly on the show. You put things into words well.
My two cents: Morgan is bad. McCarver just as bad. Miller talks to Morgan too much and asks him questions. Ask an idiot a question and you get an idiotic response. Sanberg over Morgan. And lastly, Pie put himself in this hole and Reed Johnson will keep him there with the way he is playing. I think a centerfielder fell in our laps, but I still keep Pie around, it’s a long season for Johnson to keep this up.
mrcubsfan - April 28, 2008
prospective
I like to believe that Eric Karros is right, and that every player at one point should be a Chicago Cubs, I mean after all wouldn’t alot of players like to be on that team that finally wins the World Series? I also believe that every fan is like my grandmother, who died 3 weeks ago, she spent every year believing that the Cubs were going to win. She went to games at Wrigley Field, watched the games on WGN, critizized the Cardinals every chance she could, and had tons of Cubs paraphenial. She was knowledgable about the game, and about her team. That’s why I get so upset at people like Marty Brennaman and other announcers like ESPN, who call us obnoxious and question our loyalty and knowledge of baseball. Do I believe that some fans are at Wrigley for the beer and partying atmosphere? Yes. But I also believe that for the most part Cubs fans are just as knowledgable if not more then Yankees, Red Sox, and expecially Reds fans. I also think that shows like Cubs Forever show everyone that when the Cubs win the World Series it will not be just a special day for fans, former players, and baseball in general. It will definitely be special for fans, and players who have gone before us. Sorry for my senseless ramblings also, and for the record yes I believe ESPN announcers suck, that’s why I use the mute when I watch them.
wendyvhz - April 28, 2008
HERE HERE
to your grandma, rip. This is the EXACT reason Brennaman should have retracted those comments.
Also, the Cubs Forever, hearing Harry get excited for some cool wins did it for me, love hearing that excited voice.
Hammer - April 28, 2008
al
you have such an inflated sense of yourself that its hard to read this site anymore.
uwbadger - April 28, 2008
BAH HUMBUG
Hammer - April 28, 2008
There's
an easy solution to your problem . . .
gwood - April 28, 2008
Are you talking about
the evil mirror-universe Al? the one with the hair and no goatee?
drewishdrewid - April 28, 2008
Yeah, Al!
Stop hacking his browser and forcing him to load this page all the time, you jerk! Stop forcing his eyelids open so he has no choice but to read it! Jeez!
northsider - April 28, 2008
So this is
your last post?
sue369 - April 28, 2008
Reading this site
The thing that makes it hard to read this site are responses like this.
No Southern Belle - April 28, 2008
When Andre Dawson
won the Comcast Spotrs Net’s award this winter he said when accepting his award that if he ever made it to the HOF he wanted Cub fans to make sure he went in as a Cub. I just hope in some way (big or small) we can help make that happen.
sue369 - April 28, 2008
You'll have to lobby the HoF to get that done.
Maybe we can help here at BCB. Hope Andre gets elected next winter.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
i watched the show and loved it
the thing that stuck with me the most was when someone said that when we do win it all its going to be thanks to a player that no one thought would get the job done. I also learned a lot about the history of this club. This club is something especial. I mean.. whats not special about a team that has the only argentine fan?
xene - April 28, 2008
When I heard that
When I heard that for some reason I thought Dempster Or Maquis as a starting pitcher or Theriot or Cedeno as everyday players would be the most likely candidates on this year’s team to fill that description.
puckishcubsfan - April 28, 2008
Cubs Forever Book
I have the book also. My Mother-in-law sent it to me the day it came out. I read it cover to cover before watching the two hour special. I have to say, the special was a let down after reading the book. Only becuase, they are almost identical. All of the qoutes etc that make the book are in the two hour special. So, once I had read the book, the video was just a repeat. It is worth having, but if you saw the special and expect something new and different from the book there is not much of a difference.
I would recommend the book just for the pictures.
I have not watched the dvd, I will give it a look and let you guys know what is on it. However, if you are like me, you would want it no matter what. I usually buy all of the Cubs books I can get my hands on.
If you have any questions etc, let me know and I will try to answer them.
ClevelandCub - April 28, 2008
Jim Rome just (sort of) bashed Geo on his TV show.....
......about Geo striking out 8 consecutive times that ” I guess he’s not seeing the ball real well”. Said Geo is a good player but he should lay down a bunt in his first ab tomorrow.
8 consecutive K’s. Has that ever happened before? I’ve never seen it in my lifetime. Rome showed a clip of sexson last year when he struck out 5 straight times and Rome said if striking out 4 times in a row is the golden sombraro, what is striking out 5 times? Sexson’s reply: “Brutal”.
Anyway, slow day thought I’d share some meaningless National Cubs exposure.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
Yea
just watched that.
Our dreams have come ture and the cubs are getting exposure, oh wait they ALWAYS get exposure if its negative.
Rudey - April 28, 2008
Right
I was waiting for Rome to find a way for him to work in the 100 year thing, but surprisingly no mention of it.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
Sandy Koufax struck out in 12 consecutive plate appearances
Eric Davis struck out in 9 consecutive plate appearances. I will check to see if this is the record for position players (non-pitchers).
There are several players who have struck out 6 times in one game (extra innings) and 5 times in a 9-inning game.
flachimesa - April 28, 2008
I once...
struck out twice with foul balls in the SAME INNING for the 1st and 3rd outs in my softball league. Ugh! That cost me two cases of beer.
soonerbered - April 28, 2008
Former Cub Bill Hands...
Once struck out 14 consecutive times, but the major-league record is 15 straight strikeouts, by San Diego’s Juan Eichelberger in 1980 and Montreal’s Mike Thurman in 1998. Not sure what the record is for position players…Might be Eric Davis with 9.
Bump Bailey - April 28, 2008
Keep in mind there is a difference between Plate Appearances and Official At Bats
Juan Eichelberger (San Diego, 1980) and Mike Thurman (Montreal, 1998) struck out in more consecutive official at bats (15) than any other player, but Sandy Koufax holds the record for consecutive strikeouts, having been set down in 12 straight plate appearances in 1955.
Eichelberger had a sacrifice bunt (June 30, 1980) in his string of AB.
Thurman had a sacrifice bunt and two base-on-balls in his string of AB.
Former Cubs pitcher Bill Hands of the Cubs struck out in 14 straight official times at bats (from June 1-July 11, 1968) but had two sacrifice hits in that span (June 18 and June 30).
I am pretty confident that Eric Davis holds the record of consecutive strikeouts (9 in 9 PA) over two games (April 24-25 vs Houston Astros) for a position player.
Since Soto had an intentional walk in the top of the 8th-after striking out 3 times-his streak is 8 straight Ks in 8 official at bats, not consecutive plate appearances (which is currently 5).
Get a single in your first at bat and put this behind you, Geo.
Go Cubs!
flachimesa - April 28, 2008
April 24-25, 1987
flachimesa - April 28, 2008
Ill still OK with Sotos production
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sotoge01.shtml
Hammer - April 28, 2008
Soto will not win the ROY award or anything...
....but yeah, I’ve been pleased with Soto so far, despite his 8 consecutive K’s. He’s still a rookie and will have periods where he struggles and for him he just happened to strike out 8 times in a row.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
BCB strikes again.
to repeat that thought….......but it’ll be something I will look for over the next week or so if he does get more off speed pitches away and if Soto continues to try and pull that pitch or if he tries to make the adjustment and go the other way. If Soto can learn to hit the other way with his power, he will have a very good MLB career. I still think he will have a nice career but that’s one thing I’d like to see him do more and that’s go the other way.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
please tell me why he WILL NOT
win the award?
Hammer - April 28, 2008
for one he's a catcher....
....and obviosly he sit’s about 2 games a week so most of his powe numbers won’t be as high as other Rookies who play everyday….Unless he is heads and shoulders better than any of these ROY candidates, which he is not but the main reason why he won’t win the award is because of a player named Justin Upton who should be given the award right now.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
There's only been 3 NL ROY the winners who have been catchers.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
Good argument
I can see that. Give him the award now, aghhhhh NO
Although
Soto 316/415/544 3hr 14rbis 14bb 22k
Upton 333/376/578 5hr 14rbi 5bb 22k
DOME 326/444/483 1hr 9rbi 19bb 17k
Dont give him the award yet.
Hammer - April 28, 2008
The problem with your arguement
about him sitting occasionly. Wood won it playing every 5th game. Willis won it playing every 5th game. Scott Williamson won it. Jason Jennings. Hideo Nomo.
My point is, if a pitcher can win it playing every 5th day a catcher can win it play 4/5 games a week.
Hammer - April 28, 2008
Absolutely.
You don’t think the writers know this…
On second thought, maybe they don’t. Carry on.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Upton already has 20 more ab's than Soto
and over the course of a season, that averages out to approximately 100 -120 more ab’s. So obviously Upton will end the season with more HR’s and RBI’s and if he ends up with a better AVG than Soto with more ab’s, he’s a shoe to win the award, especially since he’s hit at 3rd and 5th in the lineup on IMO, the best team in the NL, will no doubt be put into consideration. Sure there are exceptions to every rule like last year with Braun who only had 450 ab’s and won the award, but his power numbers were comparable and better than any other candidates in limited ab’s. I just don’t see Soto being able to put up amazing numbers like that to win the award. Especially since I think Upton is by a pretty wide margin, the better prospect and since I get to watch him every game, go gaga over this kid who is only 20 years old. He’s a special player and I think he’ll put up consistent numbers throughout the season. Also, he’s put up his current numbers against mainly the Western Division, who I think have the best starters than any other Division.
Here’s an impressive stat:
Of the DBacks 28 games, 25 have been against NL West teams. Impressive.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
Your numbers are a little off.
Arizona has played 25 games, 22 vs. the West.
They are 17-5 vs. the West, 1-2 vs. the Central (which is the Reds, who they lost two of three to, opening the season in Cincinnati).
The 17-5 breaks down this way:
5-1 vs. Colorado
4-1 vs. Los Angeles
4-2 vs. San Diego
4-1 vs. San Francisco
Impressive is right.
Al Yellon - April 28, 2008
Yes...TY for the clarification
I was looking over the schedule and did the math myself and for some reason included Hou who they play over the next 3 days. Something else that is impressive with what they’ve done, is that besides doing what they’ve done against mainly Divisional oppenents, is that their last game off was April 17th and their next day off is May 12th, so this is the toughest part of their schedule right here. After the Hou series and up to May 12th, they will have series against the Mets,Phillies and Cubs.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
ugh.....wrong again!!
Their next day off is May 1st. But I still think this could be the toughest part of their schedule and we’ll know just how good the DBacks are on May 12th after NYM< PHI> and our Cubbies.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
I think that Soto and Fukudome will split the vote, denying both of them ROY...
crazymountain - April 28, 2008
Anyone watch Rome is Burning tonight?
After bashing Soto for striking out 8 times in a row, he suggested that he lay down a bunt tomorrow on the first pitch to break the streak. Can never tell when this guy is serious and when he isn’t but this is just stupid. I never liked Jim Rome and this just adds fuel to the fire.
Soto is taking this streak very well though. He said that 0-5 woth 5 k’s is pretty close to 0-5 with 5 groundouts. He’s not a guy to sit and pout when he is playing poorly. As long as our pitchers are pitching well he’ll be content. He knows his hitting will come around.
Bricks and Ivy - April 28, 2008
Upton is can NOT be ROY
He had 140 AB last year which is 10 over the 130 mark to disqualify him as
ROY this year
Brought to you curtesy of Arizonajazzman who no longer posts but
does read BCB. Not like I would know this myself/
Doggie Stalker - April 28, 2008
Good call
I believe in order to qualify for ROY you can’t exceed 130 ab’s, which Upton did by 10 ab’s. For some reason I didn’t think he had more than 130 ab’s last year. Maybe it’s because he’s only 20 years old and he was called up in early Aug and played in nearly every single game. So Justin won’t be given the ROY award any time soon. I see an MVP award though sometime in his career.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
9 ab's.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
quick google found...
.....that if Upton had 130 ab’s last season, he would’ve been eligible for the ROY this year. In ‘96 Rolen had exactly 130 ab’s and won the ROY award in ‘97. So technically the actual cutoff is 131 to disqualify.
lemon20pie - April 28, 2008
Some good news regarding LCA
Didn’t want to start a new diary but thought some here might be interested…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352816,00.html
Not a cure, but it’s a start.
Ilan - April 28, 2008
Is LCA
the condition that Derrek Lee’s daughter has?
JohnM - April 29, 2008
Yes.
This could be VERY good news for D-Lee and his family.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
The news
I have a net friend who’s niece has a disease that’s in the same family as LCA. She emailed this article to me this morning. This could be absolutely huge.
Her family and other families that have children/family members with these diseases cannot even begin to express their gratitude towards Derrek Lee and his foundation. Not only for the money raised but awareness.
They live in Germany and never have paid attention to baseball before in their lives but her niece has an autographed picture of Derrek I sent them.
puckishcubsfan - April 29, 2008
My humble, personal and probably irrelevant opinion about Jon Miller and Joe Morgan:
I don’t think they are universally detested. On the contrary, I think most people like them. I think the sentiment against them, especially against Joe Morgan, is stronger among Cubs fans, for reasons described by others above, mainly having to do with the rivalry with Sandberg and the Hall of Fame refusal to admit Ron Santo while the Hall committee was under Morgan’s leadership. Miller is affected due to his association with Morgan.
I also disagree with others about Jon Miller’s pronunciation of Spanish names. His pronunciation is among the best I’ve heard from non-native speakers and he speaks the language very well. I like it. In fact, my only complaint is the opposite of what some wrote. I don’t care how a player wants his name to be pronounced; it should be pronounced the way it is meant to be pronounced. That goes especially to Matt Díaz (DEE Azz, not Die Azz). And, sorry Andrew Jones. You might want to Americanize your name, but you’re Andruw (AHN Droo), not Andrew, in Curaçao.
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Matt Diaz...
... wants his name pronounced that way.
Why should announcers not take into account the player’s desire?
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
Don't the announcers get a sheet before the game with the pronunciations?
dr stabbingworth - April 29, 2008
Yes.
Most of these pronunciations are in the teams’ media guides, too.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
They can. I don't.
Because it’s wrong. (That’s my take but I understand the opposing argument.)
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Les Nessman (he of the Chi Chi Rodriguez fame) begs to differ... ;-)
ballhawk - April 29, 2008
LOL
n/t
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
So it's up to us to decide how others' names are pronounced?
Wow, talk about hubris.
Shanghai Badger - April 29, 2008
No, it's up to the pronunciation rules.
They’re an objective standard. But I understand your point.
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Actually, I understand yours, as well
Especially with an unemotional, factual response like that—well done.
But, I still think that it’s up to an individual to be called what they prefer.
Shanghai Badger - April 29, 2008
Agreed.
There may be an objective standard about pronouncing various words in the English - or any other - language.
But an individual can pronounce his/her name any way they choose. Why would you force an individual to be known by an “objective standard”? That makes no sense.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
That settles it...
I’m naming our next dog “Objective Standard”
santoswoodenlegs - April 29, 2008
LOL
n/t
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
But how are you PRONOUNCING "Objective Standard"?
n/t
Al Yellon - April 30, 2008
I understand your position.
But both sides of the argument make sense. Furthermore, I understand that the player might prefer an incorrect pronunciation but why force it on everyone else?
To me, this is like forcing everyone to call Chad Johnson “Ocho Cinco” because he likes it. I won’t. He and anyone else can. (Actually, it should be “Ochenta y cinco”, meaning Eighty Five. “Ocho Cinco” means eight-five. That’s like calling eleven: one-one.)
But I see your point and I believe most sports broadcasters follow it. I’m just strict about language.
I also have the bias of my profession (judge) where we rule according to the law and not by the wishes of the parties. That’s how I see the pronunciation rules, especially in Spanish, where the rules are less flexible. I’m still amazed how in English the same spelling can be pronounced in several ways. For instance, the word “read”. That is impossible in Spanish. In the same way, Díaz is Díaz. There’s only one way to say it.
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Sure, but --
A word doesn’t refer to a sentient being; a name does. Chad Johnson is a bit different because that’s not his legal name – a claim that Chad should be pronounced “Ocho” would be quite a stretch.
What about Sade? Shouldn’t that be pronounced “SAY-dee”? And what’s the deal with Sine-Aid O’Connor? I see that head and say, “cue ball in the side pocket”. (Sorry, Frankie, didn’t see you there.)
Silly joke aside—names aren’t words. They are derived from them, but aren’t words. And, a lot of people change their names to be easier to pronounce in the country that they or their family have emmigrated to. Or, they change the pronunciation to avoid the name being butchered. I think it’s reasonable to respect that.
Shanghai Badger - April 29, 2008
Excellent.
Very good post. However, as to Sade and Sinead, I defer to their native language. I don’t even know where Sade is from and the Irish names have a particular pronunciation. That’s the diference between the English language and the romance languages. In English, the rules are informal and thus, allow the same spelling to be pronounced in different ways.
Also, I have no problem if someone changes their name to acommodate the pronunciation to the local usage. In some cases, like the Chinese and Japanese, it is inevitable, because their alphabet is different.
But when the spelling is the same, in Spanish at least, the pronunciation is unique and specific. In English, not so. That’s why Sinead is whatever she says, but Díaz is Díaz, unless they change how it is written. But if you want to say Die-azz, hey, feel free to do so. I understand. You’re not talking in Spanish. I can’t say it, though. It’s automatic to me: I see the word and I pronounce it a certain way.
I guess this is a cultural disagreement. In Spanish, names are like any other word, to be written and pronounced one way. In English, names are more personal and the grammar rules are more flexible. In Spanish, there is a group who make and revise the formal rules for everyone else to follow. Really. Those rules are inflexible and do not allow personal deviations. The “Real Academia Española” is in charge of that.
This is a very interesting academic subject. But since I am rapidly veering away from baseball, I’ll leave it here. Who am I to tell others how to say stuff in English, anyway?
Fraggin Judge - April 29, 2008
Also a good post
Clear and concise. I’ll have to defer to you on at least this:
As I am not a Spanish speaker, native or otherwise.
Now, on to something we both agree on – Go Cubs!
Shanghai Badger - April 29, 2008
Since ROY was brought up....
Fukudome is one “on base” away from tying the rookie record for reaching a base in MAR/APR. Can anyone name who holds the record for this feat?
montecarlo - April 29, 2008
On Cubs Forever,
one of the best parts was when Sutcliffe and Grace were describing a little problem Sutcliffe was having while he was pitching in a game in Cincinnati. It had me rolling on the floor laughing.
montecarlo - April 29, 2008
I had heard that story before.
But the way Sutcliffe and Grace told it was hilarious.
Al Yellon - April 29, 2008
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