The San Diego Padres, who came excruciatingly close to making the playoffs last year (and who are still waiting for Matt Holliday to touch the plate), lie in ruins this morning.
Their #1 starter and one of the best in the game, Jake Peavy, is on the DL with elbow trouble, and we are all very familiar with what elbow trouble can do to your ace pitcher. Their #2 starter, Chris Young, went on the DL yesterday after getting hit in the face by an Albert Pujols line drive; Pujols then added both insult and another injury to injury by accidentally hooking the ankle of Padres catcher Josh Bard when subsequently scoring.
With Bard, Young and Peavy on the DL, San Diego has two rookie catchers on the roster and their #2 starter is now... drum roll... Shawn Estes. The Padres have the worst record in the major leagues at 18-31 and are already eleven games out of first place.
I would think that this would put the Padres into "sell" mode, if not right away, then certainly by the time the non-waiver trading deadline hits on July 31. This essay is going to make the case for the Cubs to acquire Greg Maddux, who has hinted this will be his last season, to end his career, perhaps in the ultimate triumph, with the team he began with and in front of the fans who love him best. Warning! This is going to be mostly based on sentiment, not statistics, so numbers people, hold your fire.
I exchanged several emails yesterday with my friend and BCB's #1 Maddux fan, Jessica, who at last admitted (after saying "No way" to me for ages) that it's possible that the Cubs might do exactly this. She sent me this quote, taken from this Barry Rozner column written after Maddux' recent appearance in Wrigley Field, which we all thought at the time might be his last:
"I'm not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux," said Cubs GM Jim Hendry. "As good a pitcher as he is, maybe the best ever, he's a better person. I was really hoping today he'd get a no-decision and we'd win the game."
Hendry did Maddux a favor in 2006 by sending him to a playoff contender, the Dodgers (in fact, players across baseball ought to love Hendry. He sent five players from that miserable Cub team -- Maddux, Phil Nevin, Todd Walker, Scott Williamson and yes, Neifi Perez -- to teams that wound up in the 2006 postseason), and Maddux responded to the stepped-up competition. He was 9-11, 4.69 with the execrable 2006 Cubs; with the Dodgers, he went 6-3, 3.30 and nearly threw a no-hitter against the Giants.
This is the nature of Greg Maddux. At this stage of his career, 42 years old and with a fastball that doesn't creak past about 84 MPH, he gets by on guile and knowledge and experience and steps up his game to the level of competition and the situation. The 2006 Dodgers got swept out of the NLDS by the Mets (and Maddux got hit pretty hard in game three), but there is no doubt that Maddux helped them get there, not only with his pitching, but with his mere presence on the bench. The story is told that Brad Penny let Maddux call all his pitches from the bench during one of Penny's late-season starts, and Penny wound up throwing seven shutout innings. That was, incidentally, against the Cubs on September 13, 2006.
So why Maddux? Well, let's take a look at a few numbers, at least. Maddux has made ten starts this season and is 3-4 (not bad on an 18-31 team) with a 3.94 ERA, which would if carried for a full season be his lowest since 2003. Yes, I am well aware that his home/road splits are pretty bad (1-0, 1.88 at home; 2-4, 5.35 away from spacious Petco). But let's compare this, shall we, to the Cubs' fifth starter, the three-headed "monster" of Rich Hill, Jon Lieber and Sean Gallagher (for the purposes of this discussion, we assume that the Cubs' first four are Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Ryan Dempster and Jason Marquis).
Hillliebergallagher have combined for nine starts. In those starts they have thrown 40.2 innings, allowed 42 hits, 26 earned runs, walked 26 and struck out 31. That's a 1.67 WHIP and a 5.75 ERA.
Now how could Maddux be worse than that?
This is a short-term fix, two months, maybe three. It's not going to retard the development of Gallagher or Sean Marshall, since it's likely Maddux will retire after this year. And Marshall said many times during 2006 that he soaked up a lot of knowledge sitting next to Maddux on the Cubs' bench. It certainly couldn't hurt having a future Hall of Famer on the bench, sharing his knowledge with this Cubs team, and I believe he could also be a contributing force, once he got off a losing team and on to a contender. Also, remember that the Cubs play the bulk of their September games on the road, so the home/road splits Maddux has had (and they could be an aberration, as he had a 3.59 ERA at Petco and 4.65 on the road in 2007, not so extreme a split) might actually work in the Cubs' favor late in the year, playing fewer games in Wrigley Field. There's no doubt that he will become available, later if not sooner, and Jessica agrees with me that the Cubs wouldn't have to do much more than take the remains of his contract and give the Padres a "face-saving prospect", as she put it.
This is also about sentiment, I freely admit, and making things "right". When Maddux returned to the Cubs in 2004, it was clearly with the intention of finishing his career with the team he started with, in front of the fans who love him perhaps more than any pitcher in post-World War II team history other than Fergie Jenkins. There's no greater evidence of that than the two loving ovations he has received in the last three years -- first, on July 29, 2006, when he threw six solid innings against the Cardinals and won his last Cub appearance before he was sent to the Dodgers, and the other one just a week ago, when he left the field after Cub hitters battered him pretty good. I don't think I've ever seen such a cheer given to a visiting player.
We love Greg Maddux, and we need Greg Maddux. He may not be the best available pitcher. But he is the right available pitcher. Go get him, Jim Hendry. Bring him home. In this season where everything seems possible, Greg Maddux should be part of it.
0 recs | 639 comments
Memorial Day Tickets (Singles) Available
Al, the ticket exchange for May 26-June 1 is closed for comments.
Single seats were available for Monday’s game as of this morning on cubs.com. Best seat available was in Section 8, Row 4 for $80. Several sections available, but again, only single seats.
I’ll have to think about this Maddux idea. We’d have to trade Marquis, IMHO.
cubzfan - May 23, 2008
I'll reopen the comments so you can post this there.
In the future, email me if comments get closed on the ticket posts and I’ll reopen them.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Al, speaking of reopening comments
Can you please do this on the “what we do for a living” thread?
tony412 - May 23, 2008
btw, I did try to email
but did not go through from my work outlook.
tony412 - May 23, 2008
Will do.
Thanks.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I disagree on Maddux...
While Lieber, Hill, and Gallagher haven’t done all that well TO THIS POINT, I think they’ll offer us plenty down the stretch (along with Marshall). I don’t see the benefit (aside from sentiment) in trading for Maddux at this point. It’s a lateral move at the major league level, and it will cost us money and prospects.
I still think the team has the expectation that Hill will find his command and be the Hill of last year, which will be better than what Maddux will provide.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Money, yes...
... although only about half of Maddux’ deal (IIRC, he’s making $10M this year), and as I said, probably no more than a mid-level prospect.
On what basis do you say that Hill, Lieber and Gallagher will offer us “plenty down the stretch”? I haven’t seen evidence of that, except for Lieber in the bullpen.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
2007 for Hill for one...
And Lieber’s performance in the bullpen, for two.
Add to that the feeling that Maddux’s hot start is inflated by PETCO, and that’s my rationale.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
And late 2006 for Hill for that matter
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Unfortunately...
... Hill did NOT show any of that form this year, and is now on the minor-league DL. I don’t think we’ll see him back anytime soon.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I disagree that he won't be back...
I agree that he hadn’t shown that form TO THIS POINT. However, I disagree that he won’t be back. I think he’ll find his stuff and return. Unless there’s a serious injury, I think he’ll get back on track.
Even if he doesn’t, I can’t believe you’d rule out Lieber, who has all of ONE bad start and has looked great out of the pen. He’s not as good as he’s been so far, but he’s as good as what we’d get out of Maddux moving forward.
So between Lieber and Hill (and Marshall, for that matter, even though he had a bad start yesterday) I think we’ll match what Maddux would give us moving forward.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
It may be that...
... Lieber is more suited to bullpen duty at this stage of his career.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I disagree, but you can say whatever you want...
You have your opinion, I have mine. We’re both speculating.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Agreed.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I agree that Maddux
would be great to have back in a Cubs uniform. He may not be the best pitcher out there, but he does maintain pretty good command which is something some of our starters struggle with. Maybe the Pads would give us Maddux and if we threw a little more money their way, maybe they would take Edmonds back? LOL.
adam316 - May 23, 2008
Maddux would be a great pick-up
for his intangibles alone. As was already noted, he earns his money just by sitting on the bench and helping out the other pitchers.
And anybody who thinks Rich Hill is going to suddenly turn into a good pitcher down the stretch, hasn’t been paying attention to the reports out of Des Moines. This guy seems to be having some serious head problems and those things never seem to correct easily. I’m not expecting anything out of Hill.
bluekoolaide - May 23, 2008
'stage of his career'
I hope this isn’t determined by age…that would mean Maddux is extremely more suited for bullpen duty.
gx4 - May 23, 2008
Yes, by all means!
I’d be for this in a heartbeat. And next year, he can stay in a Cubs uniform, and be the new pitching coach.
Having him on the bench now between starts would be like having a second pitching coach along anyway, wouldn’t it?
MN exile - May 23, 2008
Yeah, IMO the question is whether the pitching staff would listen.
jking79 - May 23, 2008
I'd think they would.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
oh, hell yes.
He’s probably the smartest pitcher in the game.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Maddux as the #5?
Interesting story
I agree that he’ll be alot more stable then the marry-go-round of #5’s we have going now. And also true about the leadership he’ll bring to the young guys on the team so he certainly does not hurt in that department.
My concern however is Maddux post season numbers are not what we’d call “hall of fame” worthy, but again I see the idea of adding Maddux as great situation that certainly is something we could do.
The question is though, what would it take to land him?
Would it take sending a guy like Matt Murton to the Padres?
Galvan316 - May 23, 2008
Even if it did, do it.
Murton has no future with the Cubs.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Murton
If that was the case to get Mad Dog back to Wrigley then absolutely.
Al, excellent post on this gloomy Friday
Galvan316 - May 23, 2008
Amen
I agree all the way, as mentioned below by crw89, this really could be a win-win situation. Murton gets to play every day, and we get a solid #5, which represents one of the most sensible and perhaps cost effective pitching pick-ups we could make. And you hit the nail on the head, it even beneifits our young guys, by virtue of the wisdom Maddux brings.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
I wouldn't...
I’m all for trading Murton, but I’d do it for more than what I believe to be AT BEST a lateral move on the field.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I don't think Murton has much more value than that right now, do you?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
He can have different value...
Considering that I think we can do as well or better with Hill/Lieber/Marshall, I don’t think trading Murton for Maddux makes sense.
I’m not saying he can get a better player than Maddux. I’m saying that I’d rather hold on to him and use him for something that provides us more value.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I see what you mean...
... I just disagree that Murton HAS more value than that.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I didn't say he has more value than Maddux...
in fact, I said specifically that I was NOT saying that. I am saying that a lesser player than Maddux who plays a different role may be more valuable to us.
Furthermore, Murton could also be kept for a package that is more valuable than Maddux.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I see your point.
It also isn’t like Murton is tearing up Triple-A right now. I guess what I’m saying is that Murton’s trade value is probably lower than it’s been since the Cubs acquired him in 2004.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
That's kind of irrelevant to my point...
By the way, Murton isn’t actually doing badly in AAA right now. He has a .339/.438/.418 line, and in May the line is .348/.423/.478. That’s pretty good.
But regardless of his value and how he’s doing in AAA, I don’t think it’s worth it to trade him for a guy who I believe isn’t going to be an upgrade over Hill/Lieber/Marshall.
If we can get the same production from one (or more) of those three without trading Murton, why trade him?
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Good point
Very true, and I guess thats why Hendry makes the big bucks to sort out all of those hypotheticals. But, there is a point where you have to look at the current situation and decide if its worth making a move. Do you have any other thoughts on how we might be able to accomplish this without losing Murton?
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Well, I'm not in favor of getting Maddux...
so I’m probably not the person to ask. But there are players in A or AA that could be discussed as well, I imagine.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I see
I agree with you, I do think there is a great amount of similar value in Lieber/Hill/Gallagher, but I think alot of that has to do with Hill. And quite frankly, I’m even a little embarassed to say it, I’m afraid that Hill is in a downward spiral funk. Thats not to say he can’y pull out of it, but I’m not sure if he’s completely hit the bottom yet. Which is a little scary since we could use him. It may be till after the break before we see him, if even then.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Lieber is laying...
...in the weeds. I still think he is going to get a shot at starting again, and will contribute better than most think.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
I totally agree.
Lieber had one bad start. Otherwise, he’s pitched well.
DGU - May 23, 2008
I think Lieber and Hill will be there down the stretch...
and we’ll find something to do with Marquis.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I really hope...
...Hill gets it together. They could use another lefty in the rotation, but I really worry about that guy staying focused.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Agreed...
I think Piniella wants to get another lefty into the rotation. So it’s a race between Hill and Marshall. I think Piniella wants Hill to be the guy (because he has a higher ceiling) but Marshall is less of a headcase.
I agree it’s no guarantee that Hill will bounce back. But I think it will happen. And I hope it will happen.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
+1
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
I think we see
Marshall start before we see Hill start.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Almost certainly....
Since Marshall is almost completely stretched out and Hill is on the DL, there’s little reason to believe that Hill would beat Marshall back up to the rotation.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Jamie Moyer?
Since we’re advocating bringing prodigal sons back home?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Oh, no.
Moyer should have retired two years ago.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Moyer
Had a good game a couple days ago….Not sure how his year is going so far, but I don’t think it’s too bad..
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
4-3, 4.37, 75 hits allowed in 55 innings.
Maddux’ year is better.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Ummmm....
55 IP, 75 H, 7 HR, 26 K, 14 BB, 4.37 ERA, 1.60 WHIP.
Do not want. He’s not really an improvment over Marquis/Lieber/Marshall/Hill/Gallagher and he’d turn into a batting tee at Wrigley when the weather heats up.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
In that case, go get him, Jim!
I could use some exercise out on Waveland… ;-)
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
But if the Cubs have good pitching and win...
you can be excercising through October!
aldimond - May 23, 2008
That IS the question, I am all for it, but what will it cost?
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Playoffs?
wombat - May 23, 2008
I'm all for it.
I admit to being one of those sentimental baseball fans, but I really don’t see a downside to making this move. I love Maddux, and I think he’d be a good fit for that five spot.
If another, “better,” pitcher come available at the dead line Hendry could still go get him.
HectorVillanueva - May 23, 2008
Sentimental too
I would llove to see Maddux finish with us, and be brilliant. Not sure if that can happen but what a story that would be. The downside is taxing our bullpen. Maddux can only go 5-6 innings which means our bullpen will be counted on heavily every 5th day. If we get to the bull pen with a lead, that’s worth it.
mrcubsfan - May 23, 2008
Too funny
I just posted a picture of Holliday’s reverse angle plate slide from last year in Varsho’s off day fun thread and sure enough first thing I read in this post is about that play…
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Update, 15 minutes later.
The Padres are still waiting.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
True
but don’t tell that to anyone here [Denver]. I was at the game and they wouldn’t even show the replay after the game in the stadium.
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Gee, what a surprise.
Serves the Rockies right that they got swept out of the WS and are sucking so far this year.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Whoa...
Little angry? Still think it was good for baseball to have a small market team make the WS. A nice change from the typical WS crap we’ve seen in the past.
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
LOL
OK, OK. True, I suppose. The Rockies’ run was a nice feel-good story, I admit.
Just wish they would have legitimately won that tiebreaker game.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
and made it easier for you to return tickets?
Just saying . . .
:)
Shanghai Badger - May 23, 2008
LMAO
Well, that too. ;)
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Didn't they get hosed on a call earlier in that game?
And regardless, even if they didn’t, they certainly didn’t lose the game.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I know and....
the rockies are waiting for Michael Barrett to pick up the ball and actually tag him which never happened…..
By Santo's Grace - May 23, 2008
Meanwhile, the Padres are waiting for Michael Barrett to hit a home run.
daver - May 23, 2008
lol...
true that
By Santo's Grace - May 23, 2008
Great Commercial Yesterday
On FSN Rocky Mountains. Clint Hurdle is sitting in the clubhouse with a jelly donut on a plate, when Matt Holliday walks by. Hurdle asks, “Holliday, did you touch the plate?” Holliday just stands there, hemming and hawing….
Comedy gold.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Correction
Great commercial. Hurdle asks him “did you touch this?” Then asks the guys if they saw him touch the Jelly dougnut. They all say “yes” and Matt finally says “Yeah I touched it, so what!” Takes a bite of the doughnut getting jelly on his chin (looking like the scab he had after he slid face first into the plate).
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Yer Right
The memory fades after you turn 40….
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Al
You should consider making this a poll question on the front page,
It be really interesting to see the stats and what the people think.
Galvan316 - May 23, 2008
I'll do that.
Check the main page poll question in a few minutes.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Update.
Poll is posted.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Technical Drivel
Would love to see Maddux back as a starter this season, but couldn’t vote yes to “go all out.” Murton yes, The Hoff, yes. All out, no.
That said, great post and until last place teams start putting pitchers like Cabrera, Bedard, or significant younger talent on the blocks, Maddux is a solid back of rotation guy.
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
Frankly, I'd have to pass...
I love the man, and I’ve said so on my own site recently. However, I’ve seen three of his starts this year, and have not come away impressed. At all. Frankly, it looks like his career at this point is only being extended by spacious NL West ballparks, particularly at home. Take that away, and frankly he is Jason Marquis. Just more beloved.
The Cubs have the best chance to make a WS appearance this year since 84, IMO. Let’s stay serious about this. And when they finally do win, send Maddux a ring, and invite him back for the ceremonies.
Damen Jackson - May 23, 2008
This is why we should trade Marquis for Maddux
The Padres get a guy who will eat innings for them and who might be able to make his #s look good enough in that park that they can flip him later. I’m for swapping Maddux for Marquis, but having both Marquis and Maddux in the rotation severely limits our rotation’s upside.
DGU - May 23, 2008
You'd have to eat part of Marquis' contract to do this.
But maybe this is the way out of the Marquis deal, and that leaves room for BOTH Gallagher and Marshall in 2009, and maybe keeping Dempster, too.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I'd eat the whole thing
and a Fish Taco, too, if they’d swap Marquis for Maddux.
DGU - May 23, 2008
That said
I don’t think you have to eat much of the contract, although I could be overestimating Jason’s value.
DGU - May 23, 2008
Only so long as it's
a Wahoo’s Fish Taco and Maddux brings a few for all of us from SD.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
amen.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
and I don't LIKE fish tacos.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Hey,
I’m allergic to fish. But I’m more allergic to Jason Marquis.
DGU - May 23, 2008
can you see
the hives?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I can see them.
daver - May 23, 2008
tick tick tick
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
haha
agreed
kylejo - May 23, 2008
totally agree..
n/t
wicubfan - May 23, 2008
He may be just as likely to go to Atlanta....
...for a reunion with Smoltz and Glavine.
I know clubhouse/bench chemistry is COMPLETELY different, but how is it that Maddux doesn’t retard the growth of Gallagher/Marshall? One gets sent down—yes? Seems like a double standard between Edmonds and Maddux as to the retardation factor. Although admittedly, to this juncture, we could expect a better contribution from Greg than what Jimmy Ballgame has chipped in.
The glasses are more rose colored for one than the other? Playing every day doesn’t help Felix and starting in AAA vs MLB does help Gallagher?
Maybe I’m taking it the wrong way.
cubfever7 - May 23, 2008
Gallagher is 22.
He still seems overmatched at this level. Let him start every fifth day at Iowa and he’ll be ready for a rotation slot next year.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Al, while I don't disagree with your thoughts on Gallagher or Pie
Pie is 23 . . . this does still seem like a double standard.
Shanghai Badger - May 23, 2008
Don't you think..
... the standards are and should be different for a 23-year-old outfielder (whose time is NOW) and a 22-year-old pitcher (whose time CAN be later)?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Possibly, but
Pie has also seemed overmatched. If it were my decision (and good for the Cubs that I don’t get to make these decisions), Pie would be up playing every day. But if a former Cub that was destined for the HOF in CF were available, would you have felt the same way?
I think that’s what cubfever7 was asking.
Shanghai Badger - May 23, 2008
I see your point.
If there were such a player, and I thought he could help the Cubs, yes, I’d feel the same way about bringing him back.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
pie....
You dont think Pie is overmatched as you call it right now as well????
By Santo's Grace - May 23, 2008
Give him a shot (Gallagher)
Al – Gallagher has big league stuff. Give him a couple more starts. His fastball is way above average – he just needs to get better control of that slider. I’d much rather stick w/ him then bring back Maddux – as much as I love Maddux. We need to move on.
jselinger24 - May 23, 2008
I agree he has the stuff...
...but I think it’s 50/50 whether Lou gives him another start in the next couple of weeks.
He really needs polishing with his breaking ball, and he was clearly overwhelmed by the whole situation in Houston as well.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Agreed.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Not. Gonna. Happen.
Maddux has already said he doesn’t want to move out of souther Cali. If he gets traded anywhere, it would be to the Dodgers or the Angels.
I love Maddux as much as anyone here and would love to see him finish out his career as a Cub, but I just don’t see it. Though, I can’t think of a better #4-5 starter who might be available.
SouthsideCub - May 23, 2008
He won't go to the Angels.
He’s said repeatedly he won’t go to an AL team.
And just because his public pronouncements say that, don’t think that different things aren’t said in private.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Agreed.
He may be saying different things in private. Not to mention that if the Cubs are in the drivers’ seat in the NL Central come trade deadline, Greg might figure “What the hell, why not?”
SouthsideCub - May 23, 2008
Exactly.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I've got a better reason
he won’t go to the Angels.
They don’t need him. It’s hard to say he’s better than Jon Garland at this point, who is the Angels worst starter.
Josh Timmers - May 23, 2008
Picking up...
Maddux is an excellent idea…the last hurrah for one of the true greats in the game. That is if he does retire at year’s end.
I can see them asking for Murton, thus giving him the chance to play everyday in the bigs. It’s a win win IMO…
crw89 - May 23, 2008
Sentimentality
I’ve got plenty myself, and was glad to see Maddux return in 2004. However, I’m not convinced that this would make things right.
People are wistful for what should have been, but nothing will change the fact that Maddux was an Atlanta Brave from 1993-2003 and had the bulk of his best years during that span. We’ll also never really know the full story behind his departure the first time and where the blame lies. While I am in the “Blame Himes” camp, there was an offer on the table that could have been signed.
There’s no doubt in my mind that Maddux would help the other pitchers with his knowledge. Al’s speculation that he’d be better than in-house options at #5 is reasonable, too, but at what cost? At this point, he looks to be nothing more than a 5 inning pitcher. How will that tax the bullpen?
If they were to get Maddux back, I’d welcome him and what he could bring to the team—but it’s not a move that I think the Cubs should make.
Shanghai Badger - May 23, 2008
This is difficult...
....because I try to be objective, yet I have the utmost respect for Maddux. I’ll also admit, this would be an amazing feel good story, if he returned, contributed and the Cubs had a deep run in the playoffs.
I’ll put it this way, I would not be against this, as long as the Pads would not ask for a lot in return. At this stage of Maddux’s career, the Pads should be willing to let him finish with a playoff contender and not limit that getting done by being greedy. Maddux is one of a handful of players, that deserves this type of respect.
I remember when Denis Savard was close to the end of his career with Tampa Bay in the late 90’s. He didn’t look like he had much left, and out of respect to him, the Esposito’s (who were running the team) traded him to the Hawks for very little in return. Savard ended up being rejuvinated, and helped the Hawks win a playoff series or two that year. I would love to see Maddux do the same (except make it a WS championship) with the Cubs.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Great article!
I agree with almost everything that was said… I remember MadDog coming up, and was heartbroken when he left in the early 90’s. When he came back, I felt like a kid again… and even though the team struggled, it broke my hear again to see him leave. I think, in terms of stats and getting things done, another pitcher might be better. Who? I dunno… but Maddux, though he’ll go into the hall as a Brave, bleeds cubbie blue… we know it, he knows it, so the rest of the world doesn’t matter!
I’d love to See Maddux come back… though, I really don’t think it will happen. I will be really surprised. I believe the ONLY way it will happen is if Lou tells Jim to look into it. Or if Maddux tells the Padres to “see if the CUbs might want me back.” I really doubt that will happen though. I also do not think Lou will tell JIm to go get him because Lou, though I’m sure he respects Maddux, has always seemed to love the power pitcher type.
But man… wouldnt it be soooooooo cool if Greg came back home? One last time! And it would be for the greatest dance in the world! THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TheHawkRules - May 23, 2008
Marquis
In general, based on numbers, it seems like a bad idea. The leadership and knowledge is hard to quantify, though. I also like the flexibility it would give us. Marquis is not going to make it through this season as the #4 starter, and I have little doubt that Madddux would be as good or better then him from August on. If we can get Hill back on track, and I do think that will happen, a rotation of Z, Lilly, Dempster, Hill, Maddux looks pretty solid to me.
paulucla - May 23, 2008
take a look at maddog's first/second half splits
2007
First half ERA: 4.27
First half WHIP: 1.27
Second half ERA: 3.97
Second half WHIP: 1.21
2006
First half ERA: 4.49
First half WHIP: 1.30
Second half ERA: 3.88
Second half WHIP: 1.13
2005
First half ERA: 4.67
First half WHIP: 1.28
Second half ERA: 3.79
Second half WHIP: 1.16
2004
First half ERA: 4.51
First half WHIP: 1.32
Second half ERA: 3.48
Second half WHIP: 1.03
2003
First half ERA: 4.63
First half WHIP: 1.24
Second half ERA: 3.03
Second half WHIP: 1.10
This is a clear trend, and I see no reason for it not to continue. Trade for Maddux at the deadline and you get a completely different pitcher.
kylejo - May 23, 2008
wow.
seeing it all laid out like that. Makes it look very good.
I’m not trading the farm, but he could be very helpful.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Al for President!
Or at least Cubs Front office.
Arbusto - May 23, 2008
HRs would be my concern....
When Maddux did his 2004 – 2006 stint with the Cubs, he gave up a ton of dingers – in ‘04, he actually gave up more HRs (35) than walks (33). He does seem to have improved on this score, but in any kind of contention/playoff situation, we’ll be facing good hitters.
I dunno – I wouldn’t argue against it, but I know I’d have a little nervousness when he was on the mound.
CaughtInTheVines - May 23, 2008
Marmol
Quote from a Carrie Muskat article on cubs.com:
Wonder what happens in the shower when he’s had a good day?
StampMe - May 23, 2008
he probably doesn't shower
don’t want to wash the good away.
tony412 - May 23, 2008
Practice A New Grip?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Wow, you really do work blue, don't you?
And I don’t mean Cubbie blue.
daver - May 23, 2008
Sorry
I’m trying to shake the mantle of always being a Debbie Downer.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
How could you get excited
With Carrie Muskat in the clubhouse?
SackMan - May 23, 2008
Maybe Maddux on June 30
I’m not ready to give up on Hillliebergallagher just yet. I’m still thinking one of those pitchers will emerge as a decent starter. If no one emerges by the end of June, then I think going after Maddux would be a good idea. If the Cubs can get him for a “face saving prospect” at that time, then I would favor the move. I don’t think now is the right time to pull the trigger.
memphiscub - May 23, 2008
Agreed... but it's July 31 not June 30
If we get to the trade deadline and we’re still in desperate need of a fifth starter, then I’d consider it. But I suspect we’ll have that problem resolved by then.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Oops...
my bad – I though you were referring to the traded deadline. I’d wait until close to the deadline.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I would too.
It’s too early to do this, most likely. Even if SD is in “sell mode”, it might take another month to pull the trigger, and it won’t BE pulled until Maddux goes to Kevin Towers and says, “I want out.”
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I suspect that by then though...
the picture will look much different for our rotation, and the need won’t be there.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
We can hope that, true enough.
Count me in the “sentimental” group, though.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Understood...
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Sandberg and Maddux are my all time favorite Cubs
So I would LOVE to see him w/ his last year as a Cub. The fact that he has been on championship teams in the past could also help the Cubs.
But count me as sentimental group.
Madison Cub Fan - May 23, 2008
In the immortal words of Arnold...
“Do it! Do it now! What are you waiting for?”
Great post, would love to see him get a chance to pitch for Cubs in post-season.
kentmeister - May 23, 2008
Sentimental fools
can all form a line behind me.
(I like DGU’s plan to trade Marquis for him, too.)
JohnM - May 23, 2008
Dear Al,
I know you work for ABC but I didn’t know you were now writing for the overly dramatic Grey’s Anatomy. You make a great sentimental case with enough statistical back up for your “can’t be worse” argument. I agree, it would make sense, and be a nice way to end things on a good note for the Cubs, Maddux and the fans. Just not this year IMO.
This year I prefer the happy ending of us seriously making the playoffs and winning a world series. If there are better pitchers out there to take our 4th or 5th rotation spots why not go after them instead? We can’t pass on them because we want to do what’s “right” with Greg Maddux! Will that make us feel better should we not make the playoffs? Maddux would not be a horrible addition, I just don’t want that to be our limit. I don’t know who would be the ideal target because we don’t know who will be available just yet, I’m just saying, when the time comes, we have to go after the option that best serves our purpose.
tony412 - May 23, 2008
Because the price for acquiring those type of pitchers might be too high.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Wait and see
Exactly, if we play the waiting game, we could get burned.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
If Al Knows Katherine Heigl
Tell her to call 1-800-2ND-SONN
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
LMAO
No, I don’t.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I'm unsure
I want to have an opinion on Maddux but there is no way I can have an unbiased thought on bringing him back. He would be a great “coach” to have as it is evident he had an impact on many of the Cubs including Demp, but I don’t know if he would upgrade our staff. I know far less than many posters on this site and the management making the decisions so I will have to trusts those who know more.
slocs55 - May 23, 2008
Greg Maddux?
Do it. Felix Pie? Do it. Sean Marshall and Matt Murton? Do it.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Foolish
If they were interested in trading Pie (Which IMO is stupid) he is far more valuable, in that case they ought to wait and pick up a higher quality starter. Why don’t we just trade away all our prospects…That way you can have your WS win, and then we can wait another century.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
You just don't dump a youngster or 2 just because its Maddog
regardless of how much sentimental value he has. Jimbo has to assess what piece(s) work on this so it doesn’t disturb other potential moves, whether trades or call-ups. That said, Jimbo probably has a few names in mind that Towers can use. And… there’s only 2 teams Maddog would go; here and Atl.
Pie, if moved, will be p/o a much bigger deal. Marshall won’t go yet unless it’s an established #2/#3 guy and that won’t happen for two months, until we’re much, much closer to the NWT deadline.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Shocking that you would suggest such moves. (Daver rolls eyes.)
daver - May 23, 2008
don't be stupid.
While having Greg Maddux back would be fantastic, especially if we made a run for the WS, trading away the future for a five month-rental on him is exactly the sort of thing that leads to NOT being able to make post-season runs year after year.
We know. You want a WS Title now. Well, I want one now too. And next year. And the year after that. I wanna be CONTENDERS, Blue-Mickey, and trading away Pie AND Marshal will keep that from happening. Cripes. Marshall is due to be a good starter very soon. Murton, I’ll reluctantly let go simply because he’s got no place on teh Cubs anymore.
But stop trying to put out a candle with a fire-hose.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
LMFAO
I aging veteran with little left for a kid with a great upside. Hmmmmmm lemme guess you posted this for a reaction? Congrats you got it. Youre the kid in school that when I came home my Mom used to tell me to ignore and my Dad told me to beat up.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
Then beat him up for Christ's sake!
Kinky Reggae - May 23, 2008
I'd pay
a dollar to watch.
sue369 - May 23, 2008
I'm smelling
a pay per view event here ;)
gwood - May 23, 2008
FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kinky Reggae - May 23, 2008
The phrasing of the poll question made it difficult
“go all-out” makes it sound like “do whatever it takes”, so based on that I voted no. I would go for acquiring Maddux if we traded Murton or Marquis for him, but I don’t think Maddux is the arm that can help our rotation the most. Maddux greatest value to the Cubs could be his influence on other pitchers as Al notes, like maximizing Z’s ceiling, or maybe helping Rich Hill straighten things out, which in my mind is the best arm available for the Cubs around the trade deadline.
I’m taking a more realistic approach to pitching at the deadline- of course everyone will be screaming for #2’s/ace’s w/ baggage (Harden, Burnett), but due to so many teams needing pitching- Mets, Brewers, Cards, Braves, Marlins, Tigers, Yankees- teams will be overpaying for those pitchers, while the injury risk isn’t worth it. Some arms will be moved approaching the deadline (hopefully Marquis), possibly Maddux, Garcia and Colon will get jobs, just because there is so much pitching need. Paul Byrd is a name that was mentioned as possibly available, and I’m not advocating acquiring him, but that’s more the type of name I’d be thinking about, which is what brings me back to feeling Rich Hill with his head on straight is the best rotation addition possible for the Cubs.
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
Colon HAS a job...
He’s pitching for the Red Sox. He was signed to a minor league deal in February, and just made his first big league start of the season yesterday.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Just my opinion..
But I think Maddux is done. Bring him back? Sure, as an announcer or pitching coach.
I’m surprised so many would like to see him back since so many argued that acquiring old players with eroding skills “stunts” the growth of the younger guys. I love Greg Maddux. I just happen to think the Cubs have better options.
wicubfan - May 23, 2008
Good point
And I’m one of those who falls into your category. But I guess the deal is that not all “old players” are going to stunt the growth of younger players. And I’m not disagreeing that there are not better options out there, sure there are! But, what can we realisticly afford both in $ and players. At least for me, I’ll admit there is some sentimental feelings, but I also think there is fairly high potential for benefit to the club.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Can the Cardinals send Cesar Izturis back to the Dodgers?
In a complicated multi-team trade that corrects that horribly lousy trade we made two years ago when we sent Mad Dog packing?
SackMan - May 23, 2008
I agree...
....going “all out” would mean you pay whatever freight the team was asking. If they were not willing to do that for Roberts, I doubt they would do it for a 42 year old Maddux.
With that said, you see where things are at in a month, and you have a little discussion with Towers if it makes sense.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
YES!
Maddog is a walking encyclopedia. His knowledge base is unmatched in MLB today and with so many youngsters on the team, they stand to benefit from his knowledge.
The team overall achieves a level of stability that is needed come crunch time.
Sackman, that deal at the ‘06 deadline was more of a favor to Maddog than anything else. Besides, where were the Cubs going at that time?
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Total agreement here. blackhawk!
Madison Cub Fan - May 23, 2008
It just amazes me that all we got out of that deal was Izturis...
Who was absolute crap. Maddux went 6-3 for the Dodgers… then won 14 games with San Diego in ‘07.
We traded quality, for crap.
SackMan - May 23, 2008
But hard to predict
How could we have known it would have gone into the toiliet like that? Plus, Izturis was just warming the bench. Yeah hindsight is 20/20.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Who could've predicted he would've hugged A-Ram's nutsack either?
SackMan - May 23, 2008
Yeah, I guess there's no statistical category for that, is there?
daver - May 23, 2008
Ask Cywers...
...he may have something on that.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Balls In Play
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
TWSS
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
All thru I would be very interested in seeing Jessica take on this post
Madison Cub Fan - May 23, 2008
Wow, I didn't see this post coming.
I mean, I’ve heard idle speculation about the Cubs acquiring Maddux, but I didn’t think the issue would start coming into play quite this soon. Then again, the Padres are having a truly horrific season and, well, I never thought the Jim Edmonds thing would get off the ground either.
Like a lot of Cubs fans, I’m torn. I can definitely see the sentimental value of getting Maddux back. And it’s hard not to ponder the positive effect his mere presence on the club could bring about. I can already hear the deafening cheers at Wrigley as Maddog takes the mound. Would that vibe - the greatest vibe in all of baseball, as Greg himself has said - propel this team to even greater heights?
And I can already see the camera shots of Maddux muttering nuggets of baseball brillance into the ears of Cubs pitchers. Could Maddux alone save Rich Hill from the purgatory of a Quadruple A existence?
Yet, sentimentality aside, how would this move be all that different from the Edmonds acquisition? The Cubs would, esssentially, be stepping backward in time and rolling the dice on a player who, by all appearances, seems to be at his career’s end. Meanwhile, the team still has plenty of pitching depth in-house that could very well achieve the same results without sacrificing any prospects mid-level or otherwise.
So, like I said, I’m torn. I guess I’d say, in an admittedly wishy-washy manner, that I’d prefer to see the Cubs not make this move unless it’s a perhaps straight-up Maddux for Marquis trade. Or maybe even Marquis and Murton for Maddux. I wouldn’t go any younger than that in terms of prospects, though.
Dang, this is a tough one with so many emotions and, yes, intangibles involved.
daver - May 23, 2008
I think Maddux has a lot more in the tank than Edmonds does.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
sure
they can have, oh, Murton and Chad Fox for him.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
All of Chad Fox, or just
what’s left of his arm.
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
all of him
gotta hold that arm up with something.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I'd like to see that opinion substantiated.
Because Maddux doesn’t look like a substantially better pitcher than Jon Lieber at this point in time. One you account for Petco’s death to offense, Maddux looks very, very mundane at this point.
He’s a good fit for a team that has nothing to use as a fifth starter and just needs to stop the bleeding. But he actually makes OUR problem – figuring out which mediocrity to use – much worse.
And you’d have to unload Marquis or Lieber to make this work. Despite what was said earlier, Towers is about as likely to do Maddux for Marquis as he is to spontaniously combust and use his newborn power of fire to combat evil supervillains.
cwyers - May 23, 2008
re: I'd like to see that opinion substantiated.
So you’re saying there’s a chance…
daver - May 23, 2008
Especially if the Padres situation worsens-
The Lip - May 23, 2008
Agreed
The calm and easy way that Maddux pitches is unlike the body contorting and torturing way most pitchers do it these days. Although he is bordering on elderly by pitcher standards, he is rarely ever hurt or worn out. He is a much better bet than Edmonds was for helping out this team.
love the ivy - May 23, 2008
Do it
Cubs are uniquely poised to break the 100 year curse. Therefore the imperative this summer needs to be to do what it takes to get over the top. If that means trading away a dubious prospect or two for Greg Maddux? Do it. If that means trading away several top prospects in an admitted risky move to acquire Rich Harden? Do it.
The Cubs live NOW. No more past talk or future talk until we win a World Series. 2008 is the year of the Cubs. Lousy National League, strong veteran ballclub, injury free so far, the advantage of several hitters in their prime, perhaps some guys having career years right now….
Pull out ALL the stops and worry about Matt Friggin Murton, Sean “Neal Cotts” Marshall, Felix “I can’t hit, I can’t hit” Pie haunting you later !!!! Run this thing like we are the New York Yankees right now !!!!
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Hey, Einstein, the Yankees are in last place.
daver - May 23, 2008
You know what I meant about the Yankees
...and their historic going for the green.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
I'd prefer to emulate the 21st Century Red Sox than the 20th Century Yankees.
daver - May 23, 2008
I think we do know what you mean
and I think the point is that their strategy failed them over the past several years while teams that invested in their youth won because of that investment. It’s all about getting the highest ceiling on the field so that you have the best team possible in October.
DGU - May 23, 2008
Your track record preceeds you in a bad way...
Izturis – flop.
Edmonds – flop.
Aardsma – flop.
Forgive me if I don’t think highly of your opinion on this issue.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Hey look
George Constanza took a lesson on how to post pictures.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Oh, Newman
stick it out your @$$.
Stop pretending you know baseball because you were the equipment boy on the NIU JV Intramural team.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
You believe in curses?
...that answers so many questions.
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Yes, If Price Tag Isn't High
Murton alone might be enough. Or perhaps the packcage could be expanded to include Cedeno and another good prospect not named Pie for Khalil Greene.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Yeah
Because Lord knows how stupid it would be to trade a Felix Pie who can’t hit his way out of a paper bag at this level and stands far better chance of being the next Alex Escobar versus holding a major league roster spot with any permanancy.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Oh Ye Of Little Faith
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Considering you roundly applauded
the acquisition of Izturis and Aardsma, I’ll take this as a ringing endorement of Pie. Also, I’m still waiting for Jim Edmonds to “stuff it in my face” as you predicted.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Bwawawa well said.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
it's funny
all the words are in english, and I know what they mean individually, but you put them together like that and they STOP MAKING ANY SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I think
I think a pitching prospect or two would be enough. I love Greg as much as anyone else (if we had another child Maddux would be a consideration for a middle name) but I don’t really think he’d command a high price tag.
puckishcubsfan - May 23, 2008
Think with your head...
... not your heart. This is not the move that a team that wants to win a World Series moves. Greg Maddux is a 5 to 6 inning pitcher right now. Once he gets into the 70-80 range of pitches, he’s toast, and thats on a good day. On a bad day his pitches move back over the plate and he’s throwing BP. As the year moves along, his stamina and stuff will get worse, too.
The cubs do not need a pitcher who is going to further stress the bullpen. If you want an upgrade, it isn’t Maddux. There are immediately better options. Jon Lieber is one. Sean Marshall is another. Sorry folks, but this would simply be a b ad move and one that does not make the team better.
DmL
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
Still Might Work Out
Provided Wuertz can rebound and Howry has his usual solid 2nd half. If so then 6-inning starters wouldn’t be too bad a thing.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
I totally agree
with everything that is said here, although I’d rather have Maddux than Marquis. I think most Cub fans have lost track of how far Maddux has fallen this year.
DGU - May 23, 2008
I'd like Maddux
to come back as a coach not as a pitcher. Is the team limited to how many coaches it can have? Since he would be a good mentor for the pitching staff why not just bring him back as a coach?
tucsoncubsfan - May 23, 2008
Maddux and Harden....DO IT
And while we’re at it, see if the Yankees are interested in shedding the fading Johnny Damon’s salary.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
So, is your plan to keep adding CFs at the back end of their career
Every two weeks?
If Edmonds goes 2 for his next 15… he’s as good as gone.
SackMan - May 23, 2008
I Dunno...
I think Damon’s free falling offensively, and even I could throw the ball farther than he can. Not sure I’d want to risk taking on Harden with his history of injuries. What do you think about Raul Ibanez, assuming the M’s don’t pull an 07 Rockies or 05 Astros?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
No thanks on Ibanez'
defense. Look KC’s way.
DGU - May 23, 2008
Which KC Player(s)?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Guillen?
Total asshat, but he’s swinging a pretty good stick. He’s a righty, though.
I wouldn’t mind making a run at some of their young pitching, maybe Greinke or Hochevar, though Hochevar has struggled a bit.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
I Was Thinkng Guillen, Too
if he can mind his Ps and Qs
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
With him, though,
that’s HUGE “if”...
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
I'd like to see what beyond Cedeno it would take
to get DeJesus and Callaspo. And if the Cubs think they can fix Teahen and put the power back in his swing, I’d look at him, too.
DGU - May 23, 2008
If they could fix him and put the power back...
why wouldn’t they just keep Pie and Murton and do that with them?
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Yep
Big IF, which is why I’d be more focused on DeJesus who is ready now and is a good CF.
DGU - May 23, 2008
Ugh.
No to Teahen. That 18 HR season was just fluky.
I like Dejesus, but I’m reticent to trade Cedeno unless the Cub are also thinking of a deal for Greene or another SS.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Cedeno's not going to play on the Cubs unless Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot run into each other for a fly ball and both land on the 60-day DL.
So we might as well trade him; at least Callspo would stand a chance of taking playing time from the LSU boys on account of being a switch-hitter.
DGU - May 23, 2008
I hate painful truths.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Square D: We put the power back in Mark Teahen!
daver - May 23, 2008
jebus on a pogo stick
THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
HERE'S a question
Pipe dream, I know… BUT… just suppose the Cubs DO get Maddux back, he pitches GREAT for us, wins a good handful of games and (GASP!) the Cubs WIN THE WORLD SERIES.
Is there ANY chance Maddux could go in the hall of fame wearing a Cubs hat?
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
Let's just say that happens
first after all of us completely freak out.
He may just come back next year depending on other moves (if they’re made or not).
The player doesn’t select the cap, HoF/MLB does. All else equal (1 WS each team). He has 3-1 Cy Youngs with Atl and won 2/3rds of his games between Atl/Chi with Atl. Edge goes to Atl. Sentimental edge (if there’s such a thing) goes with the Cubs.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Yeah, that's why the question drives me crazy.
Because, no offense to ATL, but a WS win with the Cubs?!? Doesn’t that trump… um… EVERYTHING? lol Just a dream, I suppose, but a damn good one. :)
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
I think it might trump everything...
... especially if Maddux were a key contributor to such a WS title.
Dreaming is fun, isn’t it?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Yup it is fun
Dreaming isn’t silly, it’s not dreaming is what’s silly.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Perhaps it does trump everything
...and it may be how integral Maddog would figure into the following:
AC000000
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Not really...
Most of his years, wins, Cy Youngs, and World Series championships are with the Braves. He’ll go in as a Brave.
Which brings up an interesting question: all this discussion about sentiment – who’s to say Maddux wouldn’t want to go pitch for the Braves for one last playoff push with his old buddies Smoltz and Glavine? That seems as reasonable an option as LA (close to home) and Chicago (where it all began).
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Just say no
It’s good to see that Chicago fans do indeed have similar fascinations with aging stars that the folks in Wisconsin do (see, Maddux, Greg and Favre, Brett). As a fan of both, I get to see both sides.
Without casting aside what Maddux has done in the past, a lot of what he is doing now is strongly aided by the spacious park he plays in. I don’t want to call him a “bullpen killer” but he’s a 5-inning pitcher, especially in smaller ballparks, and probably isn’t worth both the cost nor the extra tax on the bullpen.
In addition, 9 of those 16 road games in September are in notorious hitter’s parks in Cincinnati, Houston and Milwaukee. Just like I wouldn’t want him pitching in Wrigley in September, ditto for those three band boxes.
There may not be better feel good stories, but there have to be better options.
krummy12 - May 23, 2008
Rick Reuschel!
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Hm, yeah, that's a good point about the bullpen.
daver - May 23, 2008
Maddux
Take it with a grain of salt but the same person who predicted to me in November of 03 that Maddux would come home to the Cubs if they called has told me that he would love to come back here to finish his career here if the Cubs are in 1st place and look not only like a division winner but a serious contender for going far in the playoffs.
What a great story it would be. And only topped off it he started and won game 7 of the world series and Kerry saved it.
And this person really does know Greg and Kathy Maddux. They were at her wedding. She was involved with Family Rescue back when Greg was with the Cubs the first time and Kathy was in charge of Cubs Wives for Family Rescue.
Nicest people you ever could meet.
puckishcubsfan - May 23, 2008
On Maddux
I never heard this or if I did I forgot but my friend told me she heard Lilly didn’t get 31 because he was told it was going to be retired.
Anyone else hear this and whether it was for Maddux for Jenkins or for both?
puckishcubsfan - May 23, 2008
Lilly did wear #31 with Toronto.
So this could be true. I assume it will be for both, and will be done when Maddux gets into the HoF.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Agreed
I’m as sentimental as anyone when it comes to Maddux, but this just doesn’t feel right. We did right by him when we sent him to L.A. I’d much rather take our chances with Hill, Gallagher, Marshall, Hart, etc….
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Agreed to the Naysayers..
forgot to hit the reply button…
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Maddux > Our rotation, excluding Zambrano and MAYBE Lilly.
I totally agree with this post, Al.
EJThunder - May 23, 2008
YEP..DO IT
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
This year
This year Maddux is behind Zambrano Lilly and Dempster as far as performance.
puckishcubsfan - May 23, 2008
Yeah, but Im not really sold on Demp yet.....
n/t
EJThunder - May 23, 2008
And Lieber...
overall, although he struggled in his lone start.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
WRONG.
Let’s see that 5.35 Road ERA come to Wrigley. Who the hell cares if he can pitch in PETCO. 5.35!!! Is everybody ignoring this?
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Maybe Mark Buehrle Can Teach Him A Spitter?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Fine.
We’re averaging 6 runs/game at home anyway. I think that means as long as the bullpen holds, we just win all his home games. lol
chi-townbleacherbum - May 23, 2008
What a bunch of softies...
this place is saturated in sentimentality.
I say no, unless the aformentioned triumvirate struggles mightily over the next month or so. Maddux is old. Pitches slow. Is not getting by with craftiness anymore. Love the guy, but do not want to see him pitch here again.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Furthermore...
How’s Marmol’s arm going to feel after Maddux averages about 5.2 innings a start?
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Idea
If we get Maddux, then have him go the 1st three innings and then have Lieber pitch the next 3 and then go to the ‘pen.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Marmol isn't our bullpen........
EJThunder - May 23, 2008
5-6 inning pitcher...
whose opponents are hitting .329 on the road against him. And his good home ERA is a smaller sample!
Marmol seems to be the one everyone is worried about, so I said him.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
you might want to check with lou on that
n/t
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
Compare that to the 3-headed 5th starters
who with 40.2 IP have spread that across 9 starts already, an average less than Maddogs’ 5.2.
And one other thing about Maddog’s numbers. He pitched the game after that 22-inning marathon. He told Black he’d go as far as Black needed and he was lit up. This is sort of what LaRussa did with Marquis in 2006, one of those games being on the South side when the Sox lit him up and Tony left him in there.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Getting Maddux back
Getting Maddux back is part of the formula I kind of always figured would add up the year the Cubs won it all.
1. Guys we’re going to win it in a weird way. Hence my prediction Kerry wins it hitting for himself because of a depleted bench in the 14th inning of game 7. Homerun by a pitcher is the weirdest way to win it.
2. There’s going to be several great side stories to it.
3. The season will be full of strange circumstances.
puckishcubsfan - May 23, 2008
Formula for World Series run
Get Greg Maddux back. San Diego can have their pick of Felix Pie, Sean Marshall, Mattt Murton, the rights to Yosh Kawano, the statute of Jack Brickhouse, a 2 year subscription to Vine Line.
Get Rich Harden. Send Oakland the mother lode of that is what it will take. Jeff Samardizja, Tyler Colvin, Donald Veal, Tony Thomas, Felix Pie….they’re all open to be included in a deal.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Worst idea ever...
you’ve really outdone yourself this time. Thank heavens you’ll never be involved with running the Cubs.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Beep, beep, beep....
That’s the sound of the truck from Oakland backing up to the garage door of the Cub minor league system to load up on whatever they want for RICH HARDEN.
When Zambrano and Harden are dominating in the playoffs en route to the Cubs getting fitted for World Series rings then I’ll worry about what was traded away.
DO IT.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Actually that's the sound of you hallucinating...
get help.
Thank goodness this won’t happen. When Zambrano is dominating in the playoffs and Harden is on the DL again, then you’d be telling us how bad an idea it was to trade for Harden.
No thanks. Keep trying though. You were so close to making sense yesterday. I’m disappointed that you’ve taken a big step back in your development.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
The A's will be lucky to get one solid prospect for Harden
Wreckard - May 23, 2008
Beane will want more than that, though.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
then hopefully
Hendry stays smart, and doesn’t give him anything.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I disagree.
Harden has way too much risk to have any real value. No GM worth his salt would see Harden as anything more than a reclamation project with incredibly high upside.
I think that gamble is worth a genuine A-list prospect – I’m actually not opposed to the idea of trading for him. But even Beane would get laughed at if he was asking for a bevy of top prospects in return. No one takes that deal. It wouldn’t be worth the risk.
Wreckard - May 23, 2008
Would The Statue Waive His NTC?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
I applaud your dedication to winning NOW!...
but I abhor your willingness to insure another 100 years of fail by depleting our future.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
To quote Al Davis...
“The moment is NOW” and “just win baby.”
It’s been 100 friggin years since this franchise won a World Series. No time to have our keesters pucker up because we’re afraid a minor leaguer or two might develop into something quality if we trade him away. The objective is singular….WIN A WORLD SERIES NOW !!! Consequences for the future be damned.
And I got to say, do you really lie awake at night in cold sweats thinking Felix Pie will turn into Roberto Clemente or that Jeff Smardizija and his 6.40 ERA will be Brendan Webb in two years? I didn’t think so my friend.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
But, see, here's the thing...
...if those players are so bad in your highly esteemed estimation, WHY WOULD BILLY BEANE WANT THEM?
daver - May 23, 2008
ssssh!
he’s rolling. Remember when the US dropped the atomic bomb on France in WWII?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Duh, daver,
because all of us who pay attention to facts (read: stats) and sit on our 98 lb asses in our mom’s basement think those players are good. Beane is one of us. He’s a sabermagic-loving 98-lb. weakling who never played the game at the college level. He’s easy pickings for a transcendent baseball mind like bluemike.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Oh, right.
I kicked Beane’s ass in D&D one night. Rolled this really cool spell and got his hit points down to zero. Then my Mom came and picked me up and I had to go.
daver - May 23, 2008
My mom won't let me out.
I just sit here and surf Al Gore’s interwebz in my bubble.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Theory of Relativity
Is MDBNIU saying that Pie, etc aren’t that good relative to himself or relative to cream of the crop guys like Pujols, Vlad Guerrero, and other established MLB players?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
lol!
First we have to establish who BlueMike thinks is better—Pujols, or himself.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
That depends...
because Pujols only played Community College ball…Maple Woods CC.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
He's obviously
worse, then.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
you right
there’s no way they match up.
Next on Celebrity Ball Club: Who ranks higher—BlueMike or ARod!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
To Say Pie <> Pujols
Is a true argument, let alone an easy one. Still I think there can be room in the Cubs lineup for Pie provided the rest of the order is optimized – meaning guys batting in spots take takes the most advantage of their statistically proven skills, and also a deal for a stronger performing middle infielder (Khalil?)/
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
not PIE and Pujols
Blue Mike and Pujols. We already know that Pie > BlueMike, because Pie never played for the NIU Girls Softball team.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
good one
sue369 - May 23, 2008
Well...
Jayson Stark spouted off on Mike and Mike that Billy Beane will, in his estimation, seriously pursue trades of Rich Harden and Joe Blanton. The A’s are loaded with high quality young pitching and Beane doesn’t want to face Harden at the arbitration table.
So Harden IS going to be moved. Lets get in the front of the line and go get him. Is it a risky move? Absofrigginlutely it is. Is it a move that could result in us landing an ace caliber pitcher for a REAL shot at World Series glory? Ding, ding, ding.
Look, if Brandon Webb or Josh Beckett were available then I wouldn’t be obsessing about Harden. But fact is circumstances are such in Oakland and with Harden’s poor healthy history that he IS available and CAN probably be had for SOMETHING the Cubs can afford.
DO IT.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Why don't you write the rest of what Stark said?
You know, about what he thought Beane would want for Harden?
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
If you would have spelled out your arguement for Harden like this in the first place...
you wouldn’t have been attacked as viciously. But we still may have to give up a lot to get him.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Beane is no dummy.
He’s going to get someone in the giggy in a deal for Harden and I pray it’s not our Cubs.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Harden’s poor healthy history
Because, of course, that’s just what we need—someone we can put on the DL with alacrity!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Alacrity Will Be Activated Before Harden Is
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
That's
DR Alacrity, right? I hear he played well for the Northwestern Platoon Squad…
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
HAHAHAHAHA
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Stark also wrote the current....
...sentiment by GMs is that Harden will have to prove himself capable to pitch an entire season before they would consider Beane’s likely high demands for a return on a Harden trade. He’s DL bait until he proves otherwise.
The Lip - May 23, 2008
Exactly.
That’s the part MDBNIU conveniently left out
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
But, but, but...
that part doesn’t support MDBNIU’s argument!!!
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Right
I was looking for that article again. Stark quotes an NL GM who said that he would give up nothing more than a middle prospect at this point. That’s pretty telling to me.
gwood - May 23, 2008
With all of your ding-ding-ding and schticky catchphrases,
I’m starting to think you’re way out of your element here on teh interwebz. I encourage you to seek employment as a sports talk radio host immediately.
Sports Talk Radio Host Job Description
1. Advocate ridiculous, absurd trades that somehow fix all of the team’s problems just by being proposed
2. Mercilessly attack your whipping boys on the team. Blame them for everything.
3. Anoint randoms like Jim Edmonds, Cesar Izturis, and David Aardsma as the SAVIORS for the team. Relentlessly advocate their acquisition, then conveniently forget all about it when they inevitably suck.
4. Talk incessantly about your own playing days and waste broadcast moments comparing them to MLB situations
5. Antagonize and condescend to callers with your “superior” intellect
6. Dismiss losers with “Whatever”
7. Call people names
8. In general, rile people up under the pretense of being all-knowing
You’re welcome for the career shift. Please send me 10% of your earnings. I look forward to never turning on my AM radio again.
northsider - May 23, 2008
Well played!
I know I would tune in for “The BlueMike Hour” on The Score just for a laugh or three.
daver - May 23, 2008
the host fans love to hate!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Why stop at one?
BlueMike in the Morning on the Score!
Ding-Ding-Ding!
northsider - May 23, 2008
You mean BlueMike is Dan Bernstien?
Hammer - May 23, 2008
Very well done. :-)
sue369 - May 23, 2008
Wrong For The Right Reasons
If you didn’t use Al Davis as an example your argument would be stronger. That clown is the worst owner in the NFL – lives in the past as far as strategy and personnel evaluation goes. The Raiders are rapidly descending to the level of the Cardinals and Lions.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
I understand your point...
but seriously, if you replaced the words HARDEN and MADDUX with the words SABATHIA AND LINCECUM…then I’d be on board. But that is impossible, so never mind.
And only Sue and Jessica lay awake at night thinking of Cub players anyway…
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
But that's just it my friend...
CC Sathathia and Tim Linceum ARE NOT going to be available. If they were, then yeah it would be an absolute no-brainer to fixate on them instead of a 42 year old Greg Maddux and a brilliantly talented by perpetually injured Rich Harden.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Lincecum might not be,
but Matt Cain could be; I’d take him o0ver Harden any day.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Well so would I....
But you show me where San Francisco has any interest in trading away the immensely talented and young Matt Cain. They would want an incredible boatload for Cain.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
And Billy Beane wouldn't?
daver - May 23, 2008
Well...
I’m going to guess that the pricetag for Rich Harden will be very big, but still smaller than the pricetag for Matt Cain.
Again, we are dealing with Billy Beane and an Oakland ballclub that makes no bones over the fact that they want to push payroll out the door. Heck, they are even open to trading Huston Street from the sounds of things. Beane is ina good spot. His farm system is loaded, to include with very good young pitching. My bet is he will insist on blue chip positional talent for Harden and some of his other intriguing puzzle pieces.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
And Stark thinks GMs will not want to give up that talent...
until Harden stays healthy for a while.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
The Giants....
...have far more needs and far less sophistication than the A’s, so we’d likely do better trading with them. I don’t see any chance we’d actually deal with either team for pitching at this point, but I’d take my chances with SF way before dealing with Oakland.
The Lip - May 23, 2008
Huston Street Rumor
I heard he’s going to the Tigers, albeit from source with no tight connections to Beane/Dombrowski.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
A boatload?
You mean something like Pie, Gallagher, Colvin, Hill, Samardizja, Veal, Murton?
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
you forgot Vitters...
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
Lincecum
I thought I remember Tim Lincecum being offered up to Toronto for one of their young hitters. Wonder if they’d play ball with Hendry on a deal for him?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
If San Fran
decides to start trading away pieces, Cain would be a more logical choice, because he just signed a deal last season. That’s why I say he’s more likely option to be moved. His contract makes him a more lucrative piece. That said, San Fran is run by a team of masters, so they show no sign of entering a rebuilding phase any time soon.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
you're willing to shoot the wad
on Harden, but not Cain?
Yeah, THAT makes sense.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Contradicting yourself...
you just said trade the entire organization for Harden. Yet you wouldn’t do the same for Cain? Good grief.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Cain Is a LH
and Lou has made it clear he’d like another LHP in the rotation. So if Hill isn’t ready or the organization decides against him, then Cain seems more feasible than Harden.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
And at much less injury risk.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
IGNORE PREVIOUS POST
Cain’s a RH…I was thinking of Noah Lowry. My bad.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
I was just about to say....
I want no part of Noah Lowry, though. Hurt and pretty inconsistent.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Wasn't he the guy who hit Dome in his first (spring training) at-bat?
daver - May 23, 2008
Not sure.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Yep, it was.
And here’s a YouTube clip to prove it. (I love answering my own questions. So fulfilling.)
daver - May 23, 2008
Ouch.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
The other day you were
going on and on about how great The Shark is….......pick a side Marriotti
Hammer - May 23, 2008
And with that, your credibility to suggest trades has dwindled into double-digit negative numbers.
daver - May 23, 2008
Somewhere in the regions of Edmonds OPS+ as a Cub,
which is an appallingly horrific -15….
Harden’s going against a Red Sox lineup that’s heating up tonight.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Ehhh.....
Maddux for Torres.
EJThunder - May 23, 2008
come on, admit it
you’re freebasing Ritalin right now.
Wow. Maybe Maddux and Harden can be THE ENTIRE PITCHING STAFF! Hell, one can pitch while the other catches!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
This is just like...
your Cesar Izturis obsession. That gritty veteran who doesn’t outperform the youth is not worth it!
I think looking at Rich Harden is not a bad idea, but I wouldn’t be willing to give up much for him.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Furthermore...
How’s Marmol’s arm going to feel after Maddux averages about 5.2 innings a start?
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Didn't You Know
Marmol is who we’re trading Maddux for!
ok, j/k
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Judging by the rampant man love...
in these posts, I wouldn’t be surprised if some were willing to make such a deal.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
This is exactly...
like the Jim Edmonds signing.
We have some youngsters struggling so we bring in a struggling veteran, simply due to past success and ‘knowledge of the game’.
Unless there is a CLEAR upgrade, then it is not worth it, just like Edmonds was not worth benching Pie.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Edmonds isn't known for his "knowledge of the game".
And Maddux’ performance this year is far better than what Edmonds has done so far.
It’s not comparable.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
It is comparable...
When you consider that his stats are similar to the pitchers he is replacing, although he possesses little upside.
Edmonds’ stats were similar and less attractive to Pie’s, yet he is on the roster.
We can waive Jim Edmonds. What will we do with Greg Maddux when his 5.35 Road ERA is translated to Wrigley and he’s struggling to last five innings? Release him? Send him to the bullpen?
Maddux is more talented than Edmonds, but is a much greater risk.
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
Al is saying
that the intangibles with having Maddux - his knowledge of opposing batters is encyclopaedic, for example - outweigh some of Maddog’s down-side. It would almost be like hiring him to be a second pitching coach.
Edmonds doesn’t have an upside.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I agree on Edmonds...
The quicker he is gone the better. But mere sentiment is persuading people into rationale such as “his knowledge” will help our staff, even if he doesn’t.
What does happen is he sucks?
Kansas25 - May 23, 2008
then you release him
same as with Edmonds (pleasegodpleasegodpleasegod)
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Well, with Maddux you don't release him.
You allow him to gracefully announce his retirement.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Very true
The PR backlash from releasing Maddux would not be pleasant.
gwood - May 23, 2008
we can make it Greg Maddux day
in Chicago, for all I care. This is one deal that really doesn’t have a downside, depending on who we send for him.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
...and here inlies the hurdle
No desparation on Jimbo’s part, if they assume the salary, Maddog can be had for a song and a dance.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
I agree with getting Harden....
....only for the right price.
I’m not comfortable with unloading a mother load of prospects to get a potential Mark Prior redux.
EJThunder - May 23, 2008
If Maddux had his druthers
I’ll bet he’d prefer to finish his career with the Braves, where he spent his vintage years.
Clark Addison - May 23, 2008
I could EASILY see that being the case...
Esecially because his good buddies Glavine and Smoltz are there. He could resume their regular golf outings just like old times.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Except
that the Atlanta Braves are a whisker away from a purge of big salaries. They are reported to be under orders to shave payroll. Hence why Mark Texiera will be playing for the Yankees or Mets next season and why several other veterans are guaranteed gone by next winter.
The 2008 Braves are not good. They are hanging on in the division race because the rest of the NL East generally sucks.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Why don't you just link
to Stark’s interview with Mike and Mike if you’re going to come here and regurgitate it?
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Thanks Walter Cronkite...
For policing the journalistic integrity of a fraggin blog spot. Where would we be without you. I listened to Jayson Stark’s sound bites on Mike and Mike. He mentioned Rich Harden and Joe Blanton in the Oakland situation. He made zero mention on any goings on in Atlanta.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
the point is
you keep saying these things as if you either came up with them yourself, or you have some sekrit source. Essentially, you’re plagerizing.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Easy Drew....
we pretty much do the same thing all the time…
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
I don't.
If I read something and then refer to it, I say “Al on BCB says…”
But I get most of my cubs knowledge right here, actually. I rarely read the Muskrat, or even Bruce.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
LOL, the Muskrat
Her words are written’ from the heavens above
It looks like muskrat love
daver - May 23, 2008
Curious..
About Muskrat…I read her all the time, but never have seen her, or a picture of her, and was just wondering…is she easy on the eyes? I have much more respect for good looking sports writers:)
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Madam Librarian
I’d rather sit between Gail Fischer and Kerry Sayers.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Or Allison Payne and Jackie Bange
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
giggidy giggidy
or any of the female Fox News morning correspondents, including the weather lady. Wow. She is the only weathermen in the country that could tell me a giant tornado is heading directly for my house and yet I’d still be at peace somehow.
chi-townbleacherbum - May 23, 2008
LOL
I’ll have to check that out….Hey, someone should do a fanpost about hot sportswriters/broadcasters. Not sure if Al would approve it, but I’d bet it would get lots of views and comments…
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
It's been done many, many times before.
Get your Google on.
northsider - May 23, 2008
On BCB?
I’ll do a search…
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Not necessarily on BCB, but everyone and his brother has done a Hottest Sportscasters post on the internet.
northsider - May 23, 2008
Or if you're going there...
Cheryl Burton and one of my faves, Linda Kohlmeyer..
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Linda Kohlmeyer
My wife asked the other night “What do you care about the Illinois Lottery? You didn’t buy a ticket!”
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Linda Kohlmeyer
I thought I was the only one that had some odd attraction to Linda Kohlmeyer. I feel slightly better now.
MikeOxbyg - May 23, 2008
She needs to
break the Prozac’s in half.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Her voice
does it for me…
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
If I had a nickname for her
it would be “Greedy Gretchen”.
blackhawk24 - May 24, 2008
No...
Cheryl Burton and Paula Faris.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Or
Cheryl Burton and Sarah Schulte
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Gotta consider ago too
Cheryl is 45, how ‘bout that? And how lucky is Jim Rose (yes that Jim Rose of ABC7). He got to tap that for at least a few years.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
No friggin way she's 45!
She looks half Jim Rose’s age…..that lucky bastard..
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Yes, Cheryl Burton is 45.
Jim Rose is (about) 55.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
She is a total bisquit
Can’t remember where I came up with that nick name but there are just some times when I think, “just what kind of guy would she consider”. Then I found out she was married to Rose at one time and that totally blew my mind. JR is alright and all but come on, Cheryl is the total package.
Can’t remember where I say this but it was some sports site blog. One guy’s blog name was, “Cheryl Burton’s Thong”.
blackhawk24 - May 24, 2008
Allison Payne
Wow, don’t know her age. She ain’t no kiddy. But I saw her up close a couple times around Wrigley. Not only is she tall, she’s very, very shapely and has a very alluring look about her.
blackhawk24 - May 24, 2008
I've always liked Gail Fischer...
I know she stumbles over her words a lot, but there is just something about her….
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
You and Keystone.....
I don’t get it. I can’t stand her.
sue369 - May 23, 2008
And SecondSon is a Gail admirer too..
Well, I have to admit she’s not the greatest broadcaster in the world, but she does have a certain “Je ne sais quois”.
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
That's French For
“wears sweaters nicely”.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Haha..
I forgot what it actually meant, but that’ll work.
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
Me too, a bit
Saw her at Harry Caray’s the night of the bartman ball explosion. She was not in the most friendly mood and guess had to be there but wasn’t working.
For those of you old enough having seen “Porky’s”, I think of her as Graveyard Gloria…..
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
You say that like looking like a librarian is a bad thing.
Here’s the CareBear:
northsider - May 23, 2008
Yeah, I looked around for pics of Muskat, too...
...and that’s the only one I could find. Actually, that’s not true. I found this one right here on BCB:
That’s her in the lower right—all you can see is the back of her head. SecondSon, SWL, take it away…
daver - May 23, 2008
Is this her w/o glasses?
The Lip - May 23, 2008
burn, dood.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
LOL
I think you got the hair right anyway…
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
HAHAHA!!!!!
sue369 - May 23, 2008
As My Brother Would Put It
She’s shaped like two raccoons fighting under a blanket.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
not in my opinion....
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Not a sports writer, but
I don’t know that I have ever actually heard anything Erin Andrews has ever said ;). My ears just shut off
gwood - May 23, 2008
I know what you mean with Erin Andrews...
my ears shut off too, but only because of the massive diversion of blood flow away from by brain…
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Holy Moley
Could those pants be any tighter?
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Mine or hers?
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Well Played Sir
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Yea...
...you don’t think she’s trying to get a little attention, do ya?
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
I don't know about you...
but I’m “standing at attention”....
ba bum, tssss
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
with alacrity!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
ROFLMAO
You guys are killing me!
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
when you're built like a brick shithouse
you don’t have to “try” to get attention. She’s the Sun, guys are the planets and stars.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Schwing!
tony412 - May 23, 2008
My vote goes to Rachel Nichols
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
She creeps me out for some reason. Although that is a good picture of her
gwood - May 23, 2008
Maybe because she looks like
she’s just been embalmed?
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
My trainer
is in love with her.
sue369 - May 23, 2008
Wow. I can see she has a quarter in her pocket.
The ‘HEADS’ side is clearly facing us.
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
She's just fantastic.
And she just had her 30th birthday
lostinthevines - May 23, 2008
Barely broken in...
n/t
blackhawk24 - May 24, 2008
Can you get me a picture
of Bonnie Bernstein. She is really good looking.
tucsoncubsfan - May 23, 2008
how's this work for ya?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Thanks
She’s a beauty.
tucsoncubsfan - May 23, 2008
She was on Mike & Mike last Friday
Glad I was at home to see her on ESPN2. Sports-savvy and drop dead gorgeous.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Sock-Fetish anyone?
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Why, yes! YES!
daver - May 23, 2008
Was she the one...
that Joe Namath tried to kiss, or am I thinking of someone else?
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
No, that was Suzy Kolber.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Oh that's right..
I think Joe went into rehab shortly after that..
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
indeed he did
with an abject apology
Emelie - May 23, 2008
So you guys get all these beautiful
sports smart women to drool over and what do us women get? The guys on ESPN that look like the execs found them at the corner bar, cleaned them up a little, and gave them a not so good fitting suit. Most of them have bad haircuts and have their hair slicked back. Not fair!
Now I must point to the sky Big Z style and thank the Lord for Soto :-)
love the ivy - May 23, 2008
uh
you get all the players. This ain’t Women’s Soccer.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
What
You don’t find Tony Kornheiser or John Kruk attractive?
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
thats just sick and wrong
Madison Cub Fan - May 23, 2008
Kruk
aka The Talking Rumproast
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
lol
he is rump roast-ish
love the ivy - May 23, 2008
You should have seen her at Wrigley
last August when Glavin won #300. She was in the bleachers before she got an inside look at the scoreboard.
I almost busted one right there AND nearly dropped my $6 beer.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
That was....
detailed…..
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Tina Cervasio
She used to be on NESN but I’m not sure what happened to her. But what a cutie! However her replacement, Heidi Watney, is quite the looker.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Update
Tina’s now with the MSG Network.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
taste enhanced!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Bump, you can always change your user name to:
Carrie’s Other Husband
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
LOL...
Yeah, why not? We already have some “other wives”...
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
"Oh, hi KOW! Have you met COH?"
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
I think I'm gonna change mine to...
...BonnieBernsteinsotherhusband.
Then I’m going to write three Fanposts a day and never use punctuation.
daver - May 23, 2008
Yeah...looking back on the order he posted the idea...
I see how he wasn’t forthcoming about where the idea came from. However, just to play devils advocate, he has mentioned wanting Harden numerous times in the past.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
that, I presume
comes from his own fevered brain. All the reasonable stuff, however, he’s pulling from other sources.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Blog spot? Is that like an ink spot?
daver - May 23, 2008
Obviously, if you had listened to
the whole interview, as well as the one with Steve Phillips, you’d know they both talked about this….
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
the "not good" 2008 braves just
completed a 4-game sweep of the Mets and have the best home record in the majors, and are 1.5 games out of first place. They’re not holding a fire sale. They’re contending to win the division this season.
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
So far, yes.
I’m not convinced that Chipper Jones is going to hit .410 this year.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
they have an entire bullpen coming back
a primre reason they’re 2-12 in 1 run games
its going to revert and they’re going to be among the better teams in the league as long as the middle of their lineup stays healthy
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
woah typo
premiere
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
premier
primary
i’ll get this right eventually…
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
premier would have worked, too.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
they have
the 2nd best run differential in the NL
you’re a gasbag
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
Last Post.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
A bit premature, no?
(Secondson, insert joke here.)
daver - May 23, 2008
TWSS
zevkalman - May 23, 2008
Prematurity, The Story Of My Life
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Ohhhhhhh!!!
Took you a while, but well done.
daver - May 23, 2008
wouldn't it be
“the story of my future child’s life”
DartmouthCubsFan - May 23, 2008
Little Squirt
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Maddux
doesn’t need any more money. He’d give the Braves a big hometown discount.
Clark Addison - May 23, 2008
There's no "discount" involved.
Maddux is already under contract. All you have to do is assume the rest of his deal for this year.
The Cubs are far more likely to do that than the Braves.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
It's either the Braves or Cubs
My guess is that Jim will get him to Chicago….........I certainly hope so. We need Maddog.
Ihatethecards - May 23, 2008
On getting Maddux...
my heart tells me yes….
my brain is slapping my heart across the face and telling it to listen to reason.
I’m indifferent, but in a good way.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
my feelings exactly.
zevkalman - May 23, 2008
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, too.
I would dismiss the idea outright if Maddux weren’t such a freakin’ genius.
daver - May 23, 2008
Pretty much my feelings.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
No way on Maddux.
His time has passed. I agree he’s a fantastic presence on the bench, and I’d love to see him eventually replace Rothschild as the pitching coach, but his road splits should tell you everything you need to know about how he’d do at Wrigley – he wouldn’t be a huge improvement over what we’ve gotten in that slot.
Hill, meanwhile, has genuine upside, and is a lefty. Marshall makes for a reasonable backup plan – his numbers as a starter are certainly better than what Maddux would give you nowadays.
If we were going to trade with the Padres, the person who makes the most sense is Brian Giles. We would likely have to give up an A-list prospect like Pie or Gallagher + a couple of other decent guys, but we’d get our solid left handed #2 hitter, assuming he can still play center (he’s only played a couple games there in the last 3 seasons) which I realize is a big if.
Wreckard - May 23, 2008
See, that's the thing...
...if the Cubs could make it to the postseason with Maddux back on the team, he’d be a great guy to have on the bench. He would have no expectation of actually pitching; he could just serve as a consultant. Again, I’m not saying the Cubs should acquire him for only this reason, but it’s thoughts like this that keep me from dismissing the idea of getting him out of hand.
daver - May 23, 2008
If he could be traded for Marquis I'd do it...
But only because he’d be good to have around the clubhouse for the young pitchers. But I wouldn’t do it if I’m looking to improve upon Hill/Lieber/Gallagher/Marshall, because I think that at least one of them will give us basically the same as what Maddux would give, if not better. And it wouldn’t cost us anything to use one of them.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
That trade would make no sense for the Padres
Why would they want Marquis for Maddux? A slightly worse pitcher, with a longer commitment, who doesn’t put butts in seats?
Wreckard - May 23, 2008
I didn't say it would make sense...
that’s not going to happen, obviously. Which is why I don’t want to do a trade for Maddux.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
Reinsdorf
just took a pretty good potshot at Cuban on ESPN 1000. Silverman says he’d really like Cuban as the next Cubs owner; Reinsdorf responds, “You should lie down and maybe that’ll pass.” He’s backpedaling now, but it’s pretty obvious he does not want Cuban owning the Cubs.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Because in the Body of MLB owners...
there can be only one a@@hole.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
+1
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
...and since Selig is Reinsdorf's sock puppet that
..pretty much answers to the viability of Cuban ever owning a MLB team
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Too True
John Canning makes my skin crawl, so I’d rather the Cubs go to Don Levin.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Agreed
But indications are that Donald Levin is no longer in the serious bidding. It probably comes down to Canning and the Ricketts family.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
Canning = MacPhail
Another stay-the-course, status-quo, stay-competitive-within-the-division type.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
There's a difference.
MacPhail wasn’t an owner. I assume Canning would simply be the head of a group that would install a team president—maybe even retain Crane Kenney, who definitely wants the job and is the anti-MacPhail.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Sure Hope That's The Case
Crane Kenney seems to have the same mindset as John McDonough – “it’s time to win the World Series, not just the division or wild card or even the pennant”. Hey, Al, you should apply for the job once the new owner comes on board!
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
All of you will back me up, right?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Could you have better references? ;)
gwood - May 23, 2008
As long
as you match my current salary and then you can give me any job you want.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
Me too...
23 years in the corporate rat race is just about enough…
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Damn I am 1.5 years
Hammer - May 23, 2008
You shouldn't consider Levin because
Canning makes your skin crawl. You should consider Levin because he knows how to run a sports franchise!
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Cuban will never own a MLB club
Bud Selig, Jerry Reinsdorf and the rest of their fraternity members will never allow it. But this is old news and news that Mark Cuban has been abundantly aware for a long time. So silly and stupid on his part to keep talking up his credentials to buy the Cubs. Ain’t goin’ to happen.
Reinsdorf has long-standing hatred for Cuban. Hence where some of that radio venom came from.
MDBNIU - May 23, 2008
well.
This should make it a slam-dunk for Cuban.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Love the idea
Screw his splits; Al said this is not a numbers thing. It’s just Maddog love.
BTW, Al, LOL at Hillliebergallagher.
santo4hof - May 23, 2008
Screw "maddog love"
I want a world series and this is not the move that helps get that.
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
Why?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Why what?
Why do I feel that this is not a move that helps get the Cubs to a World Series? Because he’s no longer a good pitcher. He’s a guy who has less and less velocity and more and more of his pitches are hitting the middle of the plate. Maddux will have a game here and there where he works his stuff magically but overall he’s not a guy who will eat up innings. He’s not a guy who will shut the opponent down on a regular basis.
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
Neither are any of our other fifth starters.
What we gain is wisdom, and maybe some of that wisdom might help the team.
Look elsewhere in this thread for Maddux’ 1st half/2nd half splits. I still think he has something left.
And I admit, I think it’s the sentimental RIGHT thing to do. Sometimes that trumps statistics.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
sentimentally right thing to do?
the sentimentally right thing to do is to win the world series. People here are way too wrapped up Maddux and his past with the Cubs. You may thing that Maddux has something left and in my opinion, those who do as allowing their Cubby glasses to interfere with their objectivity. Maddux has okay stats due to pitching in an extreme pitcher’s park. Al, you were at the game that the Cubs faced him. He was throwing BP.
I’d put money down that Jon Lieber would perform more effectively over the course of the remainder of the season than Maddux. I’d do the same with Sean Marshall. This includes throwing enough innings so as not to be a burden to the bullpen.
The right thing to do is to acquire players who will help win the world series. I think people here are being far too enamoured with the past through this thread.
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
What about Marquis?
Will he perform more effectively over the remainder of the season than Maddux? Because in my mind, that’s the reason to get Maddux – plug him in the #5 spot and stop worrying about it. Yeah, he might get lit up every now and then, and he might force you to go to the bullpen a little earlier than usual, but… [ahem] isn’t that what you’d normally expect out of your #5 pitcher? Meanwhile, what he adds to the team when he’s not pitching would be off the charts, especially compared to Marquis.
You’ve got Z, Lilly, Dempster at the front end and Maddux bringing up the rear. Now Lou, Larry and Jim can play Cubbie Roulette with Jon GallaMarsHill in the #4 spot. Frankly I think our odds are better at getting one winner out of that group than two.
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
I like this theory
a lot. Maddux will be dependable as a #5.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I think about even
between Marquis and Maddux. Both are going to go out and there and have and have great games. Both are going to implode from time to time. Both are going to have stretches of effectiveness as well as stretches of ineffectiveness. The difference, IMO, is that Marquis is going to be able to go deeper into games. When is Maddux is at his most effective, he throws 80 pitches, max. The question is whether or not that’s in the 5th inning or 7th inning.
I am not a Marquis fan but I think I’d rather have him at this point simply based on how deep either will go in games.
DmL
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
Don't compare him to Z or Demp,
or Lilly (past 4-5 starts) for that matter. Compare him to the #5’s the Cubs have had this year. Maddog is actually averaging about 1 more inning per start than the #5’s have in their 9 chances…
PLUS to boot, he’s a walking encyclopedia. DO NOT underestimate the power in that. For reference, see the Brad Penny game in 2006 that Maddog called the pitches for him AGAINST the Cubs.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Yeah, but he's averaging more innings...
...in Petco. More walks and hits means more batters faced per inning and more pitches.
cwyers - May 23, 2008
innings
You’re not at all taking into account the fact that the pitchers who have been in these situations have been moved to and from the bullpen. Give someone like Lieber or Marshall a chance to stretch out and within a few starts they’ll be averaging many more pitches per game than Maddux.
DmL
dmlichte - May 23, 2008
...and the fact Maddog
is 42 years old, or about the same as Gallagher and Marshall combined.
And the kicker: Gallagher and Marshall can LEARN from Maddog.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Three Words That Shouldn't Go Together
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Reinsdorf also says
that he’s going to retire Frank Tomas’ number and give him a statue outside the park when Frank retires. That strikes me as a pretty classy move.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
I Liked The Fisk Tribute
Pudge drove in from the OF on a motorcycle wearing his 1983 home jersey.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Yeah, that was nice.
I always liked Fisk.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
My Favorite All Time MLB Player
With apologies to Ryno, Hank Aaron, Maddux, Catfish Hunter, and Alan Trammell.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
Good news, Thomas is by FAR the greatest player
to play for the Sox in the modern era….
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
He's doing well so far now that he's back with Oakland too.
Nice to see. So far hitting .282 with 3 HRs and 14 RBIs.
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
OT: Edmonds trial
Not sure I am so happy with the recent news regarding the Cub’s solution once the Edmonds trial fails. From Paul Sullivan in today’s Trib:
Does Lou really have such little faith in his pitchers that he has to turn our outfield from one of the better defensive outfields to an average outfield at best? Apparently the answer is yes. I am not saying that I have tremendous faith in anyone beyond Z and Lilly, but our offense is scoring runs, we need to prevent the other team from scoring runs too.
I guess I just don’t understand the logic in the above suggested move. Any help understanding it would be appreciated.
gwood - May 23, 2008
I don't think Lou puts as much stock in defense as many of us around here do...
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
He did spend most of his time in the AL....
things that make you go HMMMMMMMM.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
But he won a WS title in the NL....
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Lou's Views Skewed
Ever since he made those two lucky plays in the outfield during the one game playoff in 1978 he thinks any ham’n’egger like himself can handle RF.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
With all due respect
And I hate the idea of DOME in CF but I dont care that Hoffpower is a 28 year old journeyman, since the beginning of ST he has hit the shit out of the ball, and I have no doubt that he can be better in RF the Matt Murton.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
He'll need to hit,
as moving Dome to CF and him to RF will likely cost the Cubs 1-2 runs per game.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Come on 1-2 runs a game really?
Maybe .2 runs a game.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
No, I'm serious.
Hoffpauir will be a butcher with the glove.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
OK
But 1-2 runs a game is a lot. Maybe 1 or 2 runs one game and then fine the other. Also, you and I should trust Lou. He tinkers and if it doesnt work he will change it. Just like when Edmonds is kicked in the ass and sent home in a few days. Honestly, Ive never seen him play the outfield and really the only persons opinion I could listen to on the subject would be Josh77s.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
I watched him play in ST.
And I’ll just say that guys that are career 1B don’t turn into solid outfielders at age 28. Hopefully Josh will chime in, as I’d like to get his take as well, but it’s not a promising development, IMO.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Agreed.
Putting Hoffpauir in RF on more than an emergency basis would TRULY hurt the team defensively.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I'll be fine with Hoffpauir
IF he continues to hit and at the very least makes the routine plays. I think as long as he makes the routine plays, he could be serviceable in RF.
gwood - May 23, 2008
Well, clearly...
If he makes the routine plays, that’s the definition of a serviceable player. I suspect he’s going to be mediocre with the bat and terrible in RF.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
While I'm finding myself in agreement with you
I’d rather give this a shot then let Edmonds get up to bat again.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Just to play devil's advocate...
...could Hoffpauier be any worse than Cliff Floyd? Because the Cubs won the division last year with Floyd in right field much (most?) of the time.
And I am playing devil’s advocate here, because one of the things I was most excited about going into the season was having an outfield of Soriano, Pie and Fukudome. Three above-average outfielders with speed (Soriano’s leg injury notwithstanding) and canons for arms.
daver - May 23, 2008
Thats the outfield I wanted, Lou didnt let it happen
Shut up BlueMike I dont want to hear it. Youre right though he cant be worse than DWard, Floyd or Murton./
Hammer - May 23, 2008
I think you overstate Murton's defensive liability...
I think he could be worse than Murton defensively. Ward and Floyd I’m less sure about. But Floyd was a bad idea and Ward isn’t an everyday player.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
actually,
given Murton’s bat lately, why doesn’t HE get the callup?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
He's not left handed
gwood - May 23, 2008
that's right.
sigh.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
I am not left handed either.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
But you are
a switch sword fighter, so Lou may have a use for you at the top of his line up
gwood - May 23, 2008
Good thing
you have developed that tolerance for iocaine powder.
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
right handedness, Lou doesnt want him
philadelphiacub - May 23, 2008
You think Hoffpauir COULD be worse defensively than Murton?
I think Hoffpauir could be worse defensively than Cliff Floyd. There’s a reason you play first base in college.
cwyers - May 23, 2008
According to the
Defensive Runs thing you do, what’s the potential cost in runs of moving Dome to CF and Hoffpauir to RF?
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
There's way too many holes in the data to be certain of anything.
I honestly don’t have a very good sample on Dome’s defense, but the last time I checked he was an absolute monster out in right. Since I know he has the tools/experience in center, I’d wager that he’d lose about 10 runs defensive value in center, probably making him average or slightly above. He has great physical tools and is experienced in playing center, so I wouldn’t be TOO concerned.
But Hoffpauir, I have absolutely no data. I can make some educated guesses, but they’re all based on the premise that a player can play the outfield – that he has the tools/abilities to do so, and that he has the experience to do so. If those assumptions hold, and I assume that Hoffpauir is an average defensive first baseman, then he looks like a -5 defensively in right.
These assumptions are based upon players that have played both positions in the same season. But there are certain kinds of players who are asked to move around to multiple positions, and so our assumptions are based upon players who are otherwise capable outfielders – essentially, outfielders who are moved to first base, not first basemen who are moved to the outfield.
If any of those assumptions are wrong – if, for example, he simply doesn’t have the arm for right field, or doesn’t have the range to play even a servicable outfield – there’s absolutely no floor. He could be Manny Ramirez out there for all we know.
What I do know is that very few players are adequately able to move UP the defensive spectrum at Hoffpauir’s age.
cwyers - May 23, 2008
I saw your piece over at GROTA.
That defensive spectrum thing is pretty neat. I remember Hoffpauir’s time in the OF in ST. Limited chances, so not much to add, but he looked a bit Dunn-ish: stiff, slow and uncomfortable.
I’m less worried about Dome for the reasons you cite, but the combination of the two moves seems to be a bad move, IMO.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
The kicker is that Hoffpauir doesn't hit like Dunn.
He hits like a second baseman, essentially – I’d project him as roughly league average on offense. That doesn’t cut it for a corner outfielder with limited range and bad routes, especially if he doesn’t have an arm.
cwyers - May 23, 2008
Good point.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Exactly.
It’d be like putting Mike Fontenot in RF. Would you do that?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Nah
He’s too short.
gwood - May 23, 2008
I know a great place to put
both Hoffpauir and Fontenot: Iowa.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Wow. Yeah, I guess Floyd at least had experience on his side.
daver - May 23, 2008
I agree he would be...
...a bit of a butcher with the glove.
If Lou did this, it would be with knowing some short term offense may outweigh any defensive liabilities because he may get lucky and not get a lot of tough chances that expose his glove.
In the long haul, his glove would start to cost you something. At that point, you have to figure whether a guy can hit enouph to offset whatever that is.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
I agree....
...Hoffpower has a real nice swing and I am surprised it has taken him this long to get a shot.
Lou does value what a balanced lineup will give him over the long haul, and he is doing his due dilligence so Hendry will be prepared at the trade deadline. Try Edmonds, Hoffpower and let Felix work on his swing. If they still have that hole in July, you make a trade.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Sullivan...
is a complete ass-clown. No Chicago “baseball” guy knows less about baseball than Sullivan. He is completely without understanding of the game.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
I humbly submit
Mike Downey and Phil Rogers. Sullivan will have to get in line if he wants the title of Dumbest Baseball Writer in Town.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
DBWIT...
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Maybe throw the 'u' in "Dumbest in there, so it's DUBWIT. Now that's catchy.
daver - May 23, 2008
Add it to the BCB Dictionary daver...
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Will do.
I don’t think I ever added in that other one we came up with—I think it was “inaudiboos.” I’ll add that, too.
daver - May 23, 2008
Done. I added my thoughts on some of the nicknames, too.
daver - May 23, 2008
Completely agree....
...on this one.
For how long Rogers has followed the game, it truely amazes me what that guy writes.
Downey really doesn’t know much about anything, and I am surprised he has lasted as long as he has.
MPH73 - May 23, 2008
Sullivan is a beat writer, Downey and Rogers are columnists
...Sullivan is reporting the news and Downey and Rogers are writing their opinions, so there is big difference.
Sullivan is pretty good beat writer, certainly serviceable. Over at the Sun Times pamphlet, Wittenmyer is about as good of a beat writer the city papers have had in a long time IMO..
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Ummmm
That would be the same Wittenmeyer that wrote before the season that Sam Fuld was ” amore accomplished hitter than Felix Pie?” No thanks.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Plus...
... Wittenmyer is from out of town and has NO clue about the history and lore of this team. Virtually anyone at this site could do a better job as Sun-Times beat writer.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I think that is one of the reasons I like his stuff..
...some fresh perspective. Certainly he was mistaken about his Fuld / Pie comment.
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
just making sure...
you are saying “virtually” and not “absolutely”... :P
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
You wouldn't want BlueMike doing it, would you?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
that's what I was looking for...
:D
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
You saying he knows less than Mariotti?
Those is FIGHTIN’ words…
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
It put Sullivan in the beat writer group
where-as Mariotti is a columnist. Beat writers should be more knowledgable of the team’s inner workings (lineup, conditioning, defence, speed etc). Sullivan strikes me as a guy who simply doesn’t get it.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Sully gets at least one fact wrong per game
And repeats, repeats, repeats . . .
Anyone see is Q&A last week? When asked if any teammates had finished 1-2 in ROY voiting, he guessed Fred Lynn and Jim Rice in 1975. (at least he got that right)
This is a guy who is supposed to understand the team, unlike the outsider Wittenmeyer? Shouldn’t he remember Walton and Smith in 1989, then?
Shanghai Badger - May 23, 2008
exactly a reason why I think he's an ass-clown
I missed that column and will try to do so going forward. After watching him a couple times on CLTV sports page in the past, I was convinced he was as clueless about the game as Milo Hamilton was back in 1981.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Piniella obviously values a LH power bat more than OF defense...
For what it’s worth, I don’t think that a Hoffpauir in RF experiment will last very long. For those of you who had a distaste for Murton in RF, Hoffpauir is worse.
But that doesn’t mean that Piniella won’t at least give it a shot. If there’s one thing we’ve learned about Piniella is that he’s willing to tinker. And if there’s another thing we’ve learned about him, it’s that he won’t be patient with any move he makes. If Hoffpauir shows he’s ill-suited for the task, he’ll be back in the minors.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I guess I'll give it a shot
but I don’t like the idea of moving Dome to center, especially when he was promised RF, and that’s (at least part of) why he came to Chicago.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I don't think it will work, either...
I don’t think Hoffpauir is all that special offensively, and I think he’ll be a butcher in RF defensively. But, we’ll probably see.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I call BS on the rumor or Dome moving to CF and Hoff in RF...
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
I'd like to agree with you...
but I think Piniella really is hell-bent on having a LH power bat. Maybe that’s not the case.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
If that's what he wants...
... a 28-year-old career minor leaguer who had a hot spring training isn’t the answer.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
IMO
better than the scrub maning CF now.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
That's pretty low bar!
I see your point and Hoff is nice guy to have around while DWard is on the DL, but putting him in RF in anything but an emergency is a mistake.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Right
The solution is past because Pies D was able to carry his subpar offense for the team scoring the most fricken runs in the game.
SHIP HAS SAILED.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
Sad, but true.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Agreed...
I’m on record as saying I’m not a proponent of the move. I’m also on record as saying that we are not in dire need of a LH power bat.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I'll continue to flog this dead horse.
Hoffpauir or Bonds?
cwyers - May 23, 2008
Yikes
One is old for a prospect, but young enough to get around, will struggle in the OF, has upside with his bat and is not know to cause a ruckus in the clubhouse.
The other is just old, can take a walk and get on base, will struggle in the OF, has upside with his bat and will turn the cluhouse into one of Dante’s levels of hell.
I say bring the Hoff.
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
How about "None of the above" if that's the choice?
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
what's that number?
I’d like to call BS myself every once in a while.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
1-888-BLU-MIKE
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
I tried that
it said “this number is not in service due to repeated whacks to the head. Please try again later.”
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I agree
but does that mean we now how 2 of our starting 8 that either need to play in one position or bat in one spot? I suspect but the corner outfielder are OK with a change if it benefits the team. BUT IMO, DOME stays in RF, Pies in CF until July if it doesnt work make a leap for someone else.
Hammer - May 23, 2008
That's what I'd do too...
But I don’t believe that’s what Piniella will do.
SouthernCub - May 23, 2008
I'd like that,
but I’m convinced that Lou has given up Felix, at least for this season.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
With Lou, Master Evaluator of Talent that he is
all it takes right now is to dig in as a lefty and make a good first impression. Congratulations, Micah! If you can hit well for four more games, you’ve just bought yourself a starting job until the trade deadline!
DGU - May 23, 2008
Which makes it even more sad...
... that Felix Pie couldn’t get more than four consecutive starts. If he’d had four good games in a row we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
To be fair...
the same could be said of Edmonds.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
I guess so...
... but don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
That said, I’d MUCH rather have an Edmonds that can hit in CF and Fukudome in RF, than Dome in CF and Hoffpauir in RF.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Edmonds that can hit
I’m sorry, sir, we’re all out of hitting Edmonds. Can I interest you in this non-hitting model? It comes with whiffing, falling-down-while-swinging, looking-disgusted-at-the-ump, lining-out-to-the-warning-track and benched as part of it’s feature set. And the cut-off tee is included!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Frosted tips?
The Lip - May 23, 2008
use the included beer-cup
(just like frustrated fans in the bleachers have) to pour warm water over No-Hit Edmonds and watch his frosted tips magically appear!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Someone say frosted tips?
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Oh puke!
n/t
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
LOL, that shot is a classic.
daver - May 23, 2008
you say such mean things about Jimmy Baseball... ;)
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
and it you pull the string in his back
he curses at the ump!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Dig the plaid jacket
So if Edmonds is a used Buick with a bad transmission, whats Maddux?
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
1969 Ford Mustang
kinda beat up, it’s an every-day car, but with love and care, it’ll take you down the road.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Nice
I knew I could rely on a good answer…heh heh
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
My 1986 Grand Am
286,000 miles and still going along.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Sounds like Les Walrond
I was thinking Maddux would be more of a came-from-the-factory with 8 cylinders type.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Nolan Ryan would be a V8
Maddog is a solid V6.
blackhawk24 - May 23, 2008
Maddux
I’m still thinking V-8 but more of a 283 with a vaccum leak and 6.5 solid cylinders working.
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
I'm thinking
more of a V6 for Maddux. An early version of a V6 with the valve shut off technology, where the valves are turning back on anymore.
gwood - May 23, 2008
V-4-6
Oh yuck those Caddys…man that thing never worked…geez Props on pulling one out with whiskers on it!
StevenABQ - May 23, 2008
Well, of course, but that's not too realistic
Take Edmonds as he is today, i.e. can’t hit for sh*t. Do you still want Edmonds/Dome over Dome/Hoffpauir?
I think as long as Lou thinks Hoffpauir can come close to hitting like he did in ST, that’s what he’s going to go with. At least give it a try.
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
Wow, that's a tough call.
In a Edmonds v. Hoffpauir offensive production showdown, it’s almost a draw. Do you bet on Edmonds getting back some of the offense he used to have. Or do you bet on Hoffpauier getting to some of the offense he could have. I think the smoke coming out of my ears is about to set off the fire detector over my head.
daver - May 23, 2008
Again, I select...
.. “None of the above”. My choice has been, and is still, Pie and Fukudome.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
Well then, I guess we're going to see how much range Dome has...
...seeing as how Pie is still in Iowa.
I don’t think Lou has the luxury of selecting “None of the above” – he has to use the players on hand. So given the current major league roster, what is your preference for a CF/RF combo? Taking into consideration the following factors:
- we know Edmonds can’t hit,
- we think Hoffpauir can’t field,
- Reed & Cedeno are right handed and
- Lou seems to really want another LH bat in there.
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
Bring back Mad-dog.
Someone’s gotta settle down Z once in a while.
And maybe he make the lineups, too. :P
cubbybear - May 23, 2008
Correction
He can make the lineups, too.
cubbybear - May 23, 2008
I'd agree if
his contract would include a clause that after this year he be our pitching coach for the rest of his life . :)
californiachicagoan - May 23, 2008
Wow
almost 500 posts already this afternoon. BCB is putting all other blog sites to shame! :D
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Remember, Al knows his audience.
Any post about bringing Maddux back is bound to set records.
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
On that note.
Last Post.
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
Plus
we are notoriously bad about staying totally on topic, hence a number of the photos above (not complaining about any of the photos, btw, just using them to illustrate).
gwood - May 23, 2008
last
daver - May 23, 2008
What was the topic again?
N Oakley - May 23, 2008
Hot chicks and microphones I think....
santoswoodenlegs - May 23, 2008
your free to post photos of Erin anytime IMO
JB 23 - May 23, 2008
Can Erin pitch? :)
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
I heard she can "close," if you know what I mean. (And I think you do.)
daver - May 23, 2008
Please sign her now.
malicedoom - May 23, 2008
Andrews or eSurance
At my age either one will do.
SecondSon - May 23, 2008
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
LOL
HOT chicks with microphones. Where’s the flames? Or a chicken whopper? I swear we are getting jaded around here :D
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
hey
you use your definition of “hot” and I’ll use mine. Lookit the wings on that BIRD!
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Noted...
those are some hot wings!
Lou In Blue - May 23, 2008
Agreed
that is some beautiful plumage!!
gwood - May 23, 2008
Simple.
Yes, a no brainer. How he ever left this team is still, to me, the worst move the Cubs or Larry “Juan Guzman” Himes made.
He needs to retire in Chicago.
Grockcubs - May 23, 2008
I don't get it
I still don’t get it.
Remember Tom Hanks in Big?
One day the Cubs are being criticized for signing once great players who pretty much have nothing left in the tank and the next day they are being asked to sign a once great player who pretty much has nothing left in the tank.
Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall.
I read the 500+ post fast but I don’t recall one person making a single rational argument on why getting Maddux would be a good idea (based on performance not sentiment).
The wall awaits me.
Luis - May 23, 2008
Lets put it this way
I would take Maddux over Marquis right now, not based on sentiment either.
Grockcubs - May 23, 2008
True and...
... I say Maddux DOES have something left in the tank, where clearly Edmonds does not, and Maddux also brings you a career’s worth of experience and wisdom.
No, you can’t measure that on a stat sheet. But clearly, it helped the Dodgers get to the playoffs in ‘06.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
You may say it, but you are not basing your argument on anything.
Maddux has a 5.35 ERA on the road. Hitters have a .329 avg. against him (48 hits in 35.1 IP). With 48 hits + 8 walks he has a WHIP around 1.50. A .825 OPS against.
If that’s not done, what is?
Luis - May 23, 2008
look at his splits.
(scroll up to somewhere above)
After the ASB, he gets a lot better.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Last year
Which, for a player in decline (just like Edmonds) is the most important year for reference he lowered his ERA by .30. So, let’s say his ERA comes down to 5.05. So what’s the argument for getting him again?
Luis - May 23, 2008
he's better than Marquis
he’s better in the clubhouse
he can teach our younger pitchers way better
and he’s Greg freakin’ Maddux!
After the ASB, he gets better.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Please
Like I said already, if Maddux would be replacing Marquis the argument changes 180 degrees. But you and everyone should know that that ain’t happening.
Luis - May 23, 2008
why?
I mean, we’re already discussing complete hypotheticals anyway. Why NOT trade Marquis for Maddux?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Because...
It’s plausible that the Padres might want to trade Maddux.
It’s not plausible that they would trade him for Marquis.
Luis - May 23, 2008
why?
you’re making the supposition here. Why won’t they trade him for Marquis?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Well
one, he’s not very good, and two, his level of talent makes his contract prohibitive of any effort to trade him.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
I don't suggest
that they’ll take him for Marquis alone. But with the right package, I think it might be doable. Cubs would eat some of the salary. Frankly, it’d be worth it.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
I don't want to package anything for Maddux.
I’d package Marquis if it gave us Greene, or David Dejesus, or a player we can actually use, but Maddux numbers, pitching half his game in Wrigley aren’t likely to be much better than Marquis’ and packaging players plus eating salary for something we already have, is most certainly not worth it.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Probably on the most sane posts on this whole thread (np)
Luis - May 23, 2008
Well, you must have missed our lovely chat..
about Carrie Muscat’s hair. But yeah, I’d take either Greene or DeJesus in a heartbeat for Marquis. But I’m sure we’d have to give a lot more for either one..
Bump Bailey - May 23, 2008
I thought that was obvious
But apparently it’s not. Given his contract Marquis has negative trade value. Maddux, because of who he has been, and because his contract ends this season, has positive trade value. If they Padres would trade for Marquis it would mean the Cubs would have to give better/more players in return + most probably eat a significant part of the money he is owed.
Luis - May 23, 2008
I agree with this, but
my point is we do the deal for Maddux, assuming it’s not cost-prohibitive. I’m not expecting them to take Marquis. I think Murton would be more than fair – he’s a sunk cost here, it’s pretty clear that he’s not going to get much of a [another] chance here, so why not trade him.
Once we get Maddux, then we try to trade Marquis for whatever we can get or we DFA him.
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
then we try to trade Marquis for whatever we can get or we DFA him.
Maybe Marquis and Edmonds can star in an Odd-Couple-like sit-com together.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
Imagine Marquis pitching to Edmonds:
The definition of an exercise in futility.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
I'm sure batting practice
would be a regular segment.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
So this would be a sitcom?
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
you just said
Marquis pitching to Edmonds is futile. I think it’s also funny.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
It would be HILARIOUS.
Tragically so, but, nevertheless, pretty damn funny.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Party of Two
we could call it.
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
FOX would pick this up in a heartbeat.
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
Al, can you pitch this
to Deep Goat?
drewishdrewid - May 23, 2008
LMAO
It’d be a hit in Des Moines.
Al Yellon - May 23, 2008
I trade Marquis
for a warm six of talls right now, but the reason talking about that deal isn’t worth the time is that Towers, and, for that matter, hardly any GM in his right mind, wants to take Marquis and his contract
gary varsho - May 23, 2008
But I'm sure you know
That Maddux will not be replacing Marquis. If that was the case the argument would be altogether different.
Luis - May 23, 2008
why wouldn't he? Does Marquis have pictures of Lou or Hendry?
ballhawk - May 23, 2008
I'm not sure how I feel about acquiring Maddux but here you go....
The Lip - May 23, 2008
Thanks!!
Luis - May 23, 2008
Steriods
It is VERY interesting to me to speculate on what Maddux’s career would have looked like either with or without steroids
1) If, like Roger, Maddux had been on the juice, what would he be like right now with all that craftiness AND a 94 mph heater?
2) If no one that he has been pitching to for the last 20 years had been on steroids, what would his numbers look like? How many roided up HR by someone who got fooled on a pitch or broken bat singles that would have been caught otherwise has he been victim to?
Interesting to think about. This guy is quite possibly the best NATURAL pitcher ever to play. Or at least the one who got the most out of the least.
Archie - May 23, 2008
Overflow thread
Click here for the overflow thread.
(this one’s really sloooooow)
JohnM - May 23, 2008
Wow, an overflow thread for a non-game-thread post.
That’s a first, I believe.
daver - May 23, 2008
I agree about Maddux
Al, I agree 100 percent with you that it’s time to bring Maddux home and have him end his career in the Friendly Confines. I know some Braves fans who would disagree and say he deserves to end his career with the Braves and back in the rotation with Glavine and Smoltz (even though Smoltzie may be back in the pen), but I find that hard to digest. He started here and should end here. Maddux is and forever will be a beloved Cub.
No Southern Belle - May 23, 2008
Um mind if I chime in ?
First I have been travelling without computer access which why you have not seen me
react. Well hell yes it would be great to bring Maddog “home” but the odds are very, very remote and I would not worry about what it would take. First off it would happen neary exactly as it did in 2006. Playing out the final year of a contract on a disastrous team Maddux would still say and mean that the loves San Diego and wants to do what is best for the team. Meanwhile Kevin Towers who loves him no less than Jim Hendry would be working with Scott Boras to find some place he would want to go.
In my mind there are only 3 realistic places, Dodgers. Braves . Cubs in that order with the Cubs a VERY remote possibility. If the Dodgers want him and are in contention near the end of July that is where he goes, if perhaps they are too far out Atlanta would be next on the hit parade but they MIGHT have an issue with 3.5 million or so on the contract. At this point the Cubs ironically have the least need of Maddux in that Dogers & Braves have far more starting pitching issues. This is NOT going to be about money or even about what the Padres can get for him, it is going to be about where he wants to go.
The ONLY way I can see him coming to Chicago is if Dodgers and Braves really fall off the charts because you KNOW he wants to be in the post season.
Is it possible, yes but remotely. I would like to think that there is a little part of Maddux
that knows that being a Cub when they have a CHANCE to win a WS is something really special but trust me LA gets him if they are in the race.
And Al spoiled my fun by “stealing ” my new sig
Doggie Stalker - May 23, 2008
Maddux
Not the best available but the right available? As a sentimental Cub fan myself I bow in deference to you, Al. Yes, by all means, let us not pursue the best pitcher that might push us over the top this year, but rather, let us pursue the one that makes us feel the warmest inside. And when he gets lit up in game four of the NLCS, we can nod knowingly that despite perhaps blowing a pivotal game in the series, he may have helped Sean Marshall understand the importance of location over velocity.
the nth - May 24, 2008
Never said we shouldn't pursue the "best" available.
Just saying getting Maddux back is right. And it is. And who says he’s going to blow a playoff game?
Al Yellon - May 24, 2008
Boy, I'm a bit late.
If anybody sees this, I’d be amazed.
I, too—would bring him back. The Cubs or the Braves are the logical landing spots for him. (The Padres and Dodgers don’t do many deals with each other. He won’t land up in L-A. The Pads will place him where he can least hurt them. Although, I’m sure Josh will set me straight on that assertion.) Give the Pads Murton, for he’s essentially lost in the system. I’d consider Pie and a pitcher, too.
Maddux has surprised me, that’s for sure. He has pitched fairly well for a crappy team, with—to my count (and they have been chronicled earlier in this thread) a pair of bad outings.
One problem is that if Maddux does wind up in a Cubs uni—remember, he just about cannot beat the Diamondbacks. He just can’t. So, it would be best to remember that the Cubs would probably, somehow, wind up playing them again.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - May 24, 2008
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