It's a day off for the Cubs, but not a day off from big baseball news. Here are ten viewpoints on the Sabathia deal:
1) What does this do to the Cardinals' chances? Viva El Birdos readers chime in.
3) There was another team involved: comments from fans of the Cleveland Indians.
4) Jeff Passan at Yahoo says: Sabathia's right for Milwaukee.
5) Notes on the Brewer prospects involved from ESPN.com.
6) Ken Rosenthal: Prospects are power.
7) Official Indians website story
8) As of this morning, the Brewers website had no official trade announcement story, just this article about the "rumored" deal.
9) Yet another viewpoint from Sportsline.
10) Finally, for you fantasy baseball addicts, the possible effects this deal will have on your team.
0 recs | 376 comments
Agree To Disagree
but disagree to part.
; )
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Perfect!
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
The Things we do for love!
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
Like walkin' in the rain and the snow and there's nowhere to go...
daver - July 7, 2008
one of the greatest 1970s songs
danimal15 - July 8, 2008
What about the impact
on the Brewers’ clubhouse caterers? With both Fielder and Sabathia in the house, its gonna be a tough job.
Manny Trillo - July 7, 2008
Where's SWL's beating a dead horse picture?
princefieldersdiet - July 7, 2008
Oh, all right.
Here:
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
is that the guy from office space...?
and shouldn’t the horse be a printer? PC LOAD LETTER??? WTF???
lswaidz - July 7, 2008
Why does it say "Paper Jam" when there IS no paper jam?
Goat Whisperer - July 7, 2008
Well considering...
Prince is on a strict, mostly vegetarian diet and CC is 6’7” 290, which really isn’t THAT big, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. They need to worry about their bullpen. And CC’s 29-sometihng point ERA vs. the Cubs.
lswaidz - July 7, 2008
Isn't that big?
Anyone who could out-sumo Antonio Alfonseca is pretty big in my book.
Orval Overall - July 7, 2008
It was only one game
I’m going out on a limb here, but I’ll say Sabathia will do a little better the next time the Cubs face Milwaukee.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
He could hardly do worse.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
I haven't checked the standings in awhile
But I just have to assume the New York Mets are dominating with Johan Santana. I mean they were one game out of winning the division last year and they added Santana without trading any starters. They are like ten games up, right? I mean the bullpen might have some holes, but that offense is killer.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
This is huge from a fantasy perspective...
...my 10 man NL-only league just got an ace, for free. And the guy with the #1 waiver wire slot is gonna be ecstatic.
Dan
dtpollitt - July 7, 2008
Again...
how many wins is he really going to net you? remember, you still have the Brewer’s bullpen closing those games down and he can’t pitch a complete game shutout, every time!
lswaidz - July 7, 2008
K's, low WHIP, low BB's, a few W's...sure, a lot from a fantasy perspective
dtpollitt - July 7, 2008
Agreed.
The only time this scares me would be the NLCS if we had to face both Sheets and Sabathia twice in a seven game series.
neverAcquiesce - July 7, 2008
Wow
I didn’t expect the Brewers or the Indians to pull the trigger so quickly. Or, for the ace to go so cheaply.
Wonder what the Cubs could have given to match?
Murton/Cedeno/The Hof and 2 AAA pitchers?
Woodstock - July 7, 2008
No way.
None of those people comes close to what LaPorta will do for Cleveland.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Totally Agree
Matt LaPorta is awesome. 20 HRs before the minor-league All-star break? This guy is the real deal, and he’s young.
That Brewers line-up is already pretty great. You throw LaPorta in there, and it’s awesome for years to come.
They want to win now, and I can’t blame them. But LaPorta is better than any Cubs prospect, and as a Cubs fan, I’m not that upset seeing him go to the American League.
Now, let’s see the Brewers not make the playoffs, and the Cubs sign CC in the off season. That would be something.
arrowman - July 7, 2008
That's my dream scenario.
slcathena - July 7, 2008
Matt Murton, Hoffpauir, and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee
They have basically zero trade value.
salparadise23 - July 7, 2008
Yes, a lot of people around here seem to think that quantity outweighs quality
Lets give them Murton + Cedeno + Hoffpauir is like saying 0+0+0=$10,000,000!
LT - July 7, 2008
Disagree
I think Hoffpauir is a real deal hitter and will help a team. I put Cedeno out there because he’s playing better and the Indians are a defensively oriented team with needs up the middle. Murton cannot be traded, but I thought some team might like his possibility.
I thought people would jump on which two pitchers to give up, which is what teams usually want.
Woodstock - July 7, 2008
Murton cannot be traded to the Indians?
Or he cannot be traded at all?
daver - July 7, 2008
Murton has more trade value than Hoffpauir
Right now we are still reading rumors about Tampa Bay and San Diego having interest in Murton. No one has interest in Micah.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Hoffpauir
is a 28 yo 1st baseman who has been in AAA for parts of 4 seasons. That’s why he is finally hitting there. He’s just another experienced player who can hit AAA pitching.
Do you think that Jason Dubois is the real deal? He is only one year older than Hoffpauir and has been in AAA for parts of 5 seasons. His numbers are very similar to Hoffpauir. They are about the same player.
Hoffpaiur has minimal trade value as a throw-in.
rlpete - July 7, 2008
Murton, et al
Murton was not a good fit for the Indians. I think he’s a good player for what he is (minimal power , plus contact, average range, minus arm). I think he can grow quite a bit, but needs a pretty small market team to have time and space to do it.
Hoffpauir has been injured, but you make a good point about his possibly being past his growth and is now a AAAA player. No, I never thought Dubois was fer realz. I never liked his promotion.
Since you think these guys are all bad, who is the trade bait of the day? Pie, Samardzija, Hill, Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Vitters? Not sure we’ve shown enough with any of those.
Woodstock - July 7, 2008
Where can you get a cuppa coffee for 50c?
ChipSet - July 7, 2008
he means 50c along with murton, and hoffpauir
Which is, about, three-fitty.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
sabathia...
should do well with the Brewers. Just a thought- not sure if this has been discussed, would the Yankees be sellers this year? If so, would Mussina be a guy the Cubs should pursue?
Manny Trillo - July 7, 2008
Yankees were supposedly in on Sabathia.
They are never sellers.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Any truth to the rumor that JJ Hardy is the PTBNL?
And if he is, do the Brewers get to keep him for the remainder of the season?
Jerry Mumphrey - July 7, 2008
I heard Steve Stone say this on the Score this morning...
so I wouldn’t get too wrapped up with that rumor.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
Steve Stone!
Hey, I know him! He’s the guy who said our ‘All Star’ would never be a closer. (goofy grin)
malicedoom - July 7, 2008
The same guy that said the Cubs would have a new 2nd baseman by opening day!
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
there is a reason...
no one wants him as a GM. He thinks he knows everything about everything, but knows nothing about everything.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
Tru dat.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
Omar listenin'...
malicedoom - July 7, 2008
whistling
The rat takes the cheese
The rat takes the cheese
Hi-ho, the derry-o
The rat takes the cheese
The cheese stands alone
The cheese stands alone
Hi-ho, the derry-o
The cheese stands alone
tony412 - July 7, 2008
Are we talking about THE WIRE
Cuz if we are, It’s all in the game, yo.
Dan
dtpollitt - July 7, 2008
I missed it
I forgot he was on this morning. Did he say anything about Kerry?
Apparently during the Sox game yesterday (got this verified by 2 people) Ed Farmer mentioned the All Stars and made a nice comment about Kerry’s comeback and Stone was deadly silent. He also said nothing about Dempster who he said would not make it into May as a starter.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
Not Sure. They were still talking about the impact of the CC deal...
when I left my car. Hadn’t gotten to the All-Star stuff. I am pretty sure they were going to complain about the Sox pitching staff not being represented.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
This is why I don't listen to sports talk radio.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
I try not to but sometimes I get hooked into the conversation...
If you can take it with a grain of salt it is pretty good humor.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
That'd be more like a "pillar of salt".
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Word
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
Farmer's comments were during the game.
And I don’t remember Ed Farmer ever breaking bad on the Cubs. Ed’s a Southsider by birth but he does not seem to fit the common stereotype of a Sox fan.
From everything I’ve heard from Farmer he has nothing but good things to say about Wood, Kerry that is.
I think people here are overly sensitive to Steve Stone. I listen to portions of just about every Sox game on the radio and I think Stone is very positive about the Cubs.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
"Farmer Ed" is OK
although he did a pretty blase call of ARam’s walkoff when the Sox were at Wrigley.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
That's the norm, isn't it...
... when an opposing team does that?
I remember it being pretty dead in the Cubbies broadcast booth when the Cubs played at the Cell last. I thought Santo was out of town.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Fair Enough
Maybe Ronnie was taking his insulin at the time. LOL
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
The Sox pitchers not making it to the game
is a valid complaint. Danks and Floyd deserve to be there. They have the best pitching in the AL. The fact that they are not represented is a crime against common sense.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
Maybe -
But you can play this came with a bunch of players. John Lackey should be there as well, and he is not ( i understand the injuries). But look close to home Derek Lee? I think he is deserving as well.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
It is a valid complaint.
No doubt about it.
In the end, I won’t lose any sleep about Sox pitchers tossing more innings, nor about not being chosen for the ASG.
I hope this snub fires up the Sox staff and rest of the team for a push the rest of the season.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Amazing how we can agree
on somethings. I am shocked, sir absolutely shocked!
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
World peace sure to come!
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Doing My Part For Peace
John Rooney was an excellent PBP man for the Pale Hose.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Rooney,
is he still with St. Louis?
I did enjoy Rooney too! Farmer and Singleton were unBEARable.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Yes, Rooney in StL
WORLDS better than Mike “the Shill” Shannon.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Lee was facing a lot of stiff competition.
Berkman, Gonzales and Pujols were all having better seasons at the plate, and how many 1Bman do you need on one All-Star team? Not to say that he isn’t deserving of being an All Star in the abstract, but hard to say he got snubbed.
I think there’s a stronger case that DeRosa should have made it – he’s probably the one guy where I really think he had a stronger case than people give him credit for.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
Gonzales...
Has had better RBI and HR numbers than Lee – that is it if i am not mistaken. But then again that is all MLB and the fans care about, HRs.
Either way i would prefer if non of the Cubs made it, i am happy to see them relax at home and get ready for the second half.
HIGGY - July 8, 2008
You mean Steve "Didn't you used to be Steve Stone?" Stone?
Goat Whisperer - July 7, 2008
waaa?
This comment isn’t serious is it?
wicubfan - July 7, 2008
Which comment is that?
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I have to admit, I was pretty bummed about this deal going down...
I really thought that CC was the lefty Lou really wanted. I don’t think Hendry will have a knee jerk reaction to this but it will be interesting to see what he does. It was obvious he was looking for a starter before the Brew landed CC anyway. It is pretty exciting to see what goes down. I think this hurts the Cards more than it does the Cubs, however, a message has obviously been sent.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
Rotation
The Cubs top 3 as of right now are comparable to the Brewers top 3 and the rest of the rotation is a wash.
Only thing is obviously CC is more of a proven commodity than Dempster but Lilly is more proven than Parra.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
as long as sheets is healthy
id defenitely take sheets/sabbathia over zambrano/dempster…....This move defenitely heats up the race for the nl central…
cubsmania - July 7, 2008
If
If and its a somewhat big if Dempster continues even close to the way he’s been pitching he’s actually pitching better than Sabathia in 08.
Zambrano and Sheets are a wash.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
Yes, and if I was an orange I'd taste like citrus.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
cwyers....i respect you and your opinions...
but why are you so quick to expect players to fail when they’re having better than average years? We all hope that Dempster can repeat his 1st half success, I even expect him to. Regressing to the mean is one thing, but flat out expecting guys to suck is another. Maybe I’m off base and blowing this out of proportion.
just sayin’
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Everyone regresses to the mean over time.
I don’t expect Dempster to “suck,” per se, going forward. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect his ERA to stay below four for the rest of the season.
I don’t want to say that he can’t continue to keep his BABIP so low, because certainly he could luck into it. But I wouldn’t consider it likely. And I think it’s ludicrous to consider Dempster a better pitcher than Sabathia for a variety of reasons.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
I just hope
that he’s found something that he couldn’t find before.
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
BABIP
The argument is that if he’s truly found a way to keep his BABIP abnormally low given his GB/FB/LD rates then he’s found something that no pitcher in history has found before.
His BABIP and ERA are both already up from their ridiculous early-season levels; in fact, over the past month his BABIP is high, perhaps he’s had some bad luck which has evened things out (though I haven’t checked his hit-trajectory rates over that span).
That said, Demp is by observation pitching well (seems to have better movement and command than in recent years). And the numbers that correlate more directly to pitching performance say so, too. His K/BB ratio is the best it’s ever been, mostly because he’s cut down on walks. He’s giving up fewer HR/9 than he ever has as a starter, too, though there should be more noise in that stat.
aldimond - July 7, 2008
Isn’t Brian Bannister trying to do just that? (keep BABIP low)
northsider - July 7, 2008
You tell me if its working or not.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
I don't like your line of thinking
It seems that you’re saying that players can’t improve themselves over time, which is blatantly false.
I guess Russ Springer and his 2.30 ERA, from his career 4.61 ERA, has some explaining to do.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
No, what I'm saying is that it takes a long period of time...
...to differentiate a real change in talent from a short-term “hot streak.” That’s especially true when you’re using a stat like Earned Run Average, which is very poor at capturing the difference between talent and luck over a short period of time.
And, sorry to be blunt, but whether or not you “like” my line of thinking, the real test is whether or not its true. And if you look at the historical record, what you tend to see is that players have a tendency to regress toward the mean (that is, the league average) over time. Players who do exceedingly poorly for a half-season tend to get better; players who do exceedingly well do worse.
Are there individuals who beat the odds? Sure! Could Dempster be one of them? Sure! But there are easily a dozen guys in baseball like Ryan Dempster, veteran players having an outstanding season outside of their career norms. Most of them will come back to earth by the end of the season, or by this time next season.
Do you have any reason to think that Ryan Dempster is different than any of them, other than the uniform he wears?
cwyers - July 7, 2008
Nittany's Reaction Similar To Mine
when I first read “Moneyball”. I thought, “Hey, it’s not cool to suggest people can’t improve or change themselves for the better”. Then I realized that baseball talent is entirely different than, say, quitting smoking or losing weight.
I have a healthy respect for the new statistical analysis in baseball, and were I an executive I would certainly base more than a few personnel moves on proven performance. But that said, there is an intangible quality to the game that, while not quantifiable, does exist IMO.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
With dempster
he hasn’t been a starting pitcher in a few years now. He has experience that he didn’t have before. He has veteran wiles that he didn’t have before. He had a season and change of sitting on the bench next to Maddox that he didn’t have before. There seem to be a lot of factors pointing to the inference that Dempster’s statistical mean as a starter doesn’t mean much.
Is he as good as he pitched earlier in the season, maybe not, but is he a better starting pitcher than he was years ago, I would say Yes.
gwood - July 7, 2008
LSA!!!
Al Yellon - July 8, 2008
No disrespect to Dempster, but...
... I’d take Sabathia over Dempster. Dempster’s having a terrific season, so far. But, Sabathia is the reigning Cy Young, and he’s pitched in the tougher league.
Sabathia is the better of the two, IMHO. And as a side note, I advocated the Cubs grabbing CC. Zambrano, Sabathia then (insert whomever is the best of the rest) would have been an imposing starting staff.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Silver Lining?
Sabathia vs Cubs 0-1 34.71 ERA… Obviously one start but…
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
Sterling silver
When you also factor in our numbers against LHP. I am not afraid.
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
I don't care if it is only one start, I LOVE those numbers.
Sabathia can only start about every 5 days or so, and even then the Brewers are not guaranteed a win just because he trots out there.
Blue W - July 7, 2008
You'll enjoy seeing the Cub lineup that put up those numbers against Sabathia.
Boxscore from June 21, 2006
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Ahhhhhhh!!!!
My eyes! My eyes!
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
Neifi doin' some damage!!!
daver - July 7, 2008
And yes, that really was a 7-inning game.
It was called after a long rain delay.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Hey maybe Lou would let Murton play
two hits and an RBI
Ok I know Lou will NEVER let him play when Soriano comes back and no more than
once a week before then. PLEASE Jim, trade him before his red hair turns grey from frustration.
Doggie Stalker - July 7, 2008
I'll bet he's gone by Jul. 31
Probably for a PTBNL or a RP. Rays or Padres.
It’s obvious that he has no value to Lou; it’s just a matter of Hendry trying to make a face-saving deal.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
Here's the uncomfortable question.
Going back to last year, what has done more to devalue our trade chips – drafting strategy or Lou’s management style, including his interviews?
DGU - July 7, 2008
Interesting post as I had a similar thought as to why our trade chips devalue.
Seems like they bring a guy up. Play him (mostly out of position) until they mess up, player doesn’t have a chance, send player back down, bring player back up, rides pine, then plays doesn’t succeed, trade value out the window.
Fishbone2 - July 7, 2008
The only way to know for sure
is to trade him and see how he does. If he develops into a solid everyday player, then Lou misjudged him (or Hendry misjudged our need for Sori and Dome). If he becomes nothing more than a bench player or 4A player somewhere else, Lou was probably correct.
Murton’s problem is that he can put up the same numbers as DeRo, but can’t hold his jock defensively in the OF, let alone MI. If he could play 2B or CF, he’d be an everyday player.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
It took me a minute to realize you were talking about Murton.
Murton’s value isn’t something I’ve worried about nearly as much as Michael Barrett’s last year, Felix Pie’s this year, Eric Patterson’s this year, etc. Every one of those players could have had much more trade value with minimal effort on Lou’s part.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Lou Thinks Out Loud
Unfortunately, Lou thinks out loud in his press conferences and totally devalues players. Eric Patterson is a great example of that…he should never had said he wouldn’t put him back out in LF even if that was his plan.
funblvble - July 7, 2008
I'd be interested to see what others think about Lou in his press conferences.
Who thinks that he “thinks out loud”? and
Who thinks that he knows exactly what he is doing and saying in there?
DGU - July 7, 2008
I think
he’s crazy like a fox.
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
+1
I agreee Lou should have just kept that to himself.
Bump Bailey - July 7, 2008
I agree,
and I would add Izturis to your list.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
He might put up similar BA and OBP numbers...
but I don’t think Matt would ever match DeRo in power.
Bump Bailey - July 7, 2008
OMG...how was that possible with that cast of clowns?
JB 23 - July 7, 2008
But...
I’m not worried about his performance against the Cubs – I’m worried about his performance against everyone else. The Brewers have really turned their season around as of late and they haven’t played the Cubs in a while. Imagine what CC will add to that!
cubbie-swagger - July 7, 2008
Most of our division stinks anyway
and the Cards have only 6 games left v. Brewers. Beyond those 6, would it have been really unreasonable to expect the Brewers to beat up on the division anyway? They’re pretty good, as you say. But worrying about games you can’t control is pointless.
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
Division records.
Brewers are 22-14 vs. the Central. Cubs are 20-16. Had the Cubs won that game that Kerry Wood blew during the last Cubs/Brewers series, the records would be identical at 21-15.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
and the one this past saturday....
and kinda the first game of the season….
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
Sigh....
sure wish we won the 1st game of the year. As it was, friends tell me it was the LOUDEST they ever heard Wrigley Field get.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Agreed..
when dome hit that homer it was unbelievably loud!
Bump Bailey - July 7, 2008
+1
Or the game Soriano blew versus the Pirates.
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
While I'm a little dissapointed not getting Sabathia
What concerns me the most is that Hendry has been striking out recently with regards to getting the players at the top of his list. While I don’t personally have a copy of said list, he failed to get Furcal and Roberts recently and if Sabathia was someone he really wanted and didn’t get him, I’d have to wonder why again, he failed to get it done. I know the best we can do as fans is trust the people in charge but as it is now, Hendry’s Cubs have yet to win a championship. The next few weeks should be interesting…
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
Yeabutt...
As much as it kills people to admit it, he made the right call on both Furcal and Roberts in my opinion. Furcal has been all over the DL since becoming a dodger (basically done for this season, maybe a September come back), and Roberts is nice, but DeRo has been great and fits this team better. With Furcal we would have added more money and another injured player, and Theriot may not be playing for us right now. it is tough to confuse what we want with what Hendry wants.
Personally i think in the past 3 years Hendry has WANTED 3 guys, Soriano, Zambrano, and Fukudome. I think that is pretty good pickings. He has wanted 3 and he got all 3. it is tough to confuse what we want with what Hendry wants, i mean he took alot of heat for the amount he spent on Soriano, but he wanted to guy and wanted it done. For the next 3-5 years (plus more on some players), we have Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Fukudome, and Zambrano all locked up, i think that is pretty solid.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
I was going to post the same thing
Fukudome and Soriano were at the top of the list. No GM gets everyone they want.
Hendry didn’t have the power bat to get Sabathia. If you look at who the Indians have been trotting out at the corner positions, you can understand their need for a power hitting outfielder. In addition, if Hafner’s injuries continue LaPorta can play there.
rlpete - July 7, 2008
true.
And in the long run, this could help the Cubs because i personally think Fielder is gone at the end of the season, the Brewers might have the pitching, but losing LaPorta and probably Fielder is a big set back to the lineup (obviously for Brewer fans, if signing CC gets the to the WS – i suppose they dont care what the next year brings)
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
Except
that I’ve seen that Gamel isn’t a good fielder either. The Brewers seem to have a line of these all-hit no field types. He could move to 1st as they have another 3rd base prospect in A that was rumored as a possibility in the Sabathia deal.
Oh, the advantage of having a loaded farm system.
rlpete - July 7, 2008
Well it depends on what you mean by 'loaded'
If you mean guys who can hit HRs, then yes, they have a ton of those. If you mean guys who are the full package (above average fielder and above average OBP skills), then not so much. In fact, most of their guys are below average defenders and have below average OBP. If you look at who has been successful in baseball in terms of making the playoffs, it’s the teams with the best OBP, not the teams with the most HRs.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Guys you can trade for reigning CYA winners are nice
In that case, it doesn’t matter if they can field.
rlpete - July 7, 2008
+1
gocubsgo22 - July 7, 2008
You have to give up talent to get talent
The Brewers’ farm system has more talent to offer.
flachimesa - July 7, 2008
I'd like to think Hendry didn't even want Sabathia
If that’s the case, I can’t wait to see what he does instead
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
Who would we rather have?
One of the mentioned starters – Harden, Burnett, etc., etc., or a new and improved Rich Hill? Someone said yesterday, some of Jim’s best trades have been (1) the ones that fly under the radar (see: Edmonds, Jimmy and Johnson, Reed) or (2) aren’t made at all (see: Dempster’s conversion to starter). Maybe a retooled Rich Hill would do us good.
Dan
dtpollitt - July 7, 2008
Edmonds and Johnson
weren’t trades, they were wavier pickups. Cheap, no risk deals.
Hendry’s best trade was getting ARam for the Great Bobby Hill and getting Less for Choi. No doubt about that. And his worse? Juan Piere for two useful pitchers.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
ARam and Lofton
One of the best trades of all time.
gocubsgo22 - July 7, 2008
Almost as good...
...as getting Eric Karros and Mark Grudzielanek for Todd Hundley. Talk about addition by addition, as well as addition by subtraction. I would have traded Hundley for an Old Style….a warm one.
Chadnudj - July 7, 2008
That
was my unbelieveable trade of all time. Can you believe we got anything for Hundley?
mrcubsfan - July 7, 2008
How’s Furcal doing? oh yeah he’s injured and the dodgers are looking to replace him…...that would have been a good trade. The Roberts deal was a done deal but Colangelo is in love with himself and Roberts and nixed that deal.
nmcubsfan - July 7, 2008
No matter haw Furcal is doing now
Hendry wanted him bad and didn’t get him
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
Who gets everybody they want?
Not even Steinbrenner. He was unable to get Maddux. If wishes were horses, etc.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
You don't always get what you want
Not even Steinbrenner. He was unable to get Maddux. If wishes were horses, etc.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
Furcal was a free agent.
Hendry didn’t get him because McFail wouldn’t give him the money.
Rick B - July 7, 2008
Not quite accurate
The Dodgers came in at the last minute and blew away the Cubs’ offer. Furcal signed without giving Hendry a chance to match.
Shanghai Badger - July 7, 2008
That's Peter Angelos that owns the team in Baltimore.
Jerry Colangelo is the former majority owner of the Diamondbacks and Suns.
gary varsho - July 7, 2008
who
Who is this CC guy you’re refering to? Maybe his name should be LB
denvercubbies - July 7, 2008
Cream Cheese
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
It's a bummer.
Chicago Cub Sabathia worked so well!
neverAcquiesce - July 7, 2008
Will Sabathia close for the Brewers?
He’s not going to help their bullpen, which is pretty pathetic. I’d worry more about Fielder, Weeks, and Hall getting untracked.
3744nsheffield - July 7, 2008
The Brewer fans I’ve talked to say very similar things.
My wife’s family wants to know if he can throw a complete game every time out.
Blue W - July 7, 2008
He helps their bullpen...
...by not letting them pitch. He consistently goes deep into games. Even in his last start against the White Sox, which was one of his lesser starts since he righted the ship a few months ago, he still went 8 innings.
John Q Freejazz - July 7, 2008
Sabathia...
... has pitched 7 innings or more in 11 of his 18 starts this year.
That’s good, but not great. If he keeps up that pace the Brewer bullpen will be called upon before the 7th in 5 of Sabathia’s projected 15 starts for them.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
True, though...
...those include his starts at the beginning of the year, in which was terrible. Since the end of April, he has pitched starts of 8, 6.1, 7, 9, 7, 7, 8, 6, 9, 8, 7, 8, 8 innings, for an average of 7.56 IP/start. So, in the last 13 GS, he’s been relieved before the 7th in 2 of them.
John Q Freejazz - July 7, 2008
Don't forget he's in the NL now
and Yost will have to take him out earlier for a pinch hitter on occasion.
BigJohnAZ - July 7, 2008
+1
neverAcquiesce - July 7, 2008
Well...he is a pretty good hitter
So, he may go the route of letting him hit…depending on the situation
TheRiot Police - July 7, 2008
Yes, he is a good hitter
In 40 career AB, he has a line of .300 / .317 / .475. He recently hit a 440-hit bomb. And he loves to hit. In these respects he reminds me of Zambrano, and as we all know lately Big Z pinch hits more than he is pinch hit for.
John Q Freejazz - July 7, 2008
I was at that game...
...and trust me, you could TELL the Indians were about to trade him. He threw almost 130 pitches in pretty humid/warm conditions, without any real explanation for why he was still out there.
If I were the Brewers, I’d be worried about a guy who just threw 130 pitches, has been throwing a lot of innings already this year, and has large size being dependable for the rest of the year….a bad back, a tweaked hamstring (running the bases, anyone?)....of course, anything could happen, but I’m thinking Sabathia may not be the savior after all.
Chadnudj - July 7, 2008
It must have been kind of weird
It must have been a little weird to know you’re about to leave a team you were picked by, developed and your entire career has been with,
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
I have to admit...
...this CC thing has caused my stomach to drop a few floors. But for every doomsday scenario I read, I find another perspective telling me not to give up. And I’m not going to.
daver - July 7, 2008
+1
Jayo525 - July 7, 2008
One thing we are forgetting...
I am upset with the Brewers getting CC, i will admit it, and i think the Cubs staff needs one more guy to get over the hump but that is neither here nor there.
But, i think we are forgetting about CC and the amount of innings he threw last year, it was 256 innings (including post season), and you dont know how that will weigh on him this year. I am not saying it is going to be bad, i am just saying that it may come into play late in the season (tired arm – mentally tired). His career best in innings prior to last season was 210, so he almost eclipsed that by 50 innings. That is alot.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
It's 22% more innings
That is quite a bit of overtime.
On the flipside, Dempster will be trying to triple his IP this year—also dicey.
JohnM - July 7, 2008
Dicey, but possibly better
Dempster is no John Smoltz, but when Smoltz was a closer and went back to starting, he actually had better stamina because he had ‘rested’ for three or four years.
Personally, I think what we are seeing is the benefits of a lighter workload for Dempster for the past couple of years. I expect him to finish off this season well but don’t expect a repeat in 2009.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Dempster...
... specifically trained hard this winter because he knew he’d need that extra stamina for the larger workload. I don’t think that’s an issue at all.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
i agree it won't be an issue
he looks extremely fit this year
Manny Trillo - July 7, 2008
It's still an issue.
It’s less of an issue, but it’s still there.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Dicey = could be an issue
Maybe, maybe not.
JohnM - July 7, 2008
Dempster
Dempster also has been a starter in the past. I’d be more concerned if he had never been a starter.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
I seem to recall Sabathia not pitching that well in the playoffs last year
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
Well to be fair
He helped his team get to the playoffs. I mean if Cubs & Brewers are Central Division champs and the Wild Card team, great, but if Sabathia get them to the playoffs and we are on the outside looking in, it’s not going to matter too much if he has a 9.00 playoff ERA.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Prince FINALLY has a Seesaw partner.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
I typically...
avoid making fun or larger people – but i will give you credit for the creativity.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
Me too...
But in their case, they are professional athletes who are paid millions of dollars to be in peak physical condition. ... But thanks anyway for bringing this up. I really should be more sensitive.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
i wasnt reprimanding u...
just so you know -
all i was saying is usually i do not comment on heavier people, but i had to because of the creativity.
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
David Wells
is on his way to reprimand you. He expects you to provide the tacos.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
If Mo Vaughn no get food by 4, Mo Vaughn gets... ANGRY
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
Was Laporta drafted 7th overall..
the same year we drafted Vitters 3rd overall? If so did we consider drafting him?
chipwood23 - July 7, 2008
We drafted him in 2003
He went to play for Florida instead.
As for the 2007 draft, LaPorta was considered, but he is a LF/DH/1B. In addition to Soriano being the LF through 2014, guys like him are easy to sign on the free agent market.
Vitters is 19 and has the skills to be an all-around star at 3B. With Ramirez’s knees, Vitters was a much better pick.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Good point.
The problem long term with Ramirez is his legs, not knees; specifically his calves & ankles.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
LaPorta was drafted by the Cubs as a catcher
out of high school in 2003 (6th pick of the 14th round, 403rd player overall). He chose to go to college (University of Florida) instead of playing for his beloved Chicago Cubs (see below).
The Red Sox drafted him in 2006 as a 1B out of college, also in the 14th round. He chose to stay at the UF for another year.
The Brewers drafted him last year (2007) as an OF in the 1st round, 7th pick overall. LaPorta accepted the challenge to play OF since the Brewers already had a great first baseman in Prince Fielder.
He played RF for the AA Huntsville Stars this year.
Ironically, LaPorta’s goal as a youngster was “to play professional baseball for the Chicago Cubs, because that was the team my grandfather and I watched all the time on WGN.”
From MiLB.com:
flachimesa - July 7, 2008
Just ran some figures.
Assuming Bush moves to the pen, this is a 1.5 win upgrade to the Brewers rotation. Nice work if you can get it, but smaller than the gap between us and them at this point.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
Phew.
This is good to hear. I know it’s only a statistical projection and the games still have to be played on the field, but it really helps counterbalance the hype to read stuff like this.
daver - July 7, 2008
Did that include his hitting?
John Q Freejazz - July 7, 2008
Are they going to move CC to the outfield?
He’d be a nice defensive replacement for Ryan Braun.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
I'd love to CC
pull a Rick Ankiel. That would be fun.
DGU - July 7, 2008
As long as you are running numbers
Would you mind running the numbers on how many wins the Cubs add if they add Harden (and he stays healthy) compared to if they added Bobby Crosby (and he stayed healthy). (If you object to the idea of Crosby – I’m more interested in seeing what an upgrade to the middle IF defense would do and you can substitute your preferred SS option.)
DGU - July 7, 2008
I'll try and get around to it.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
Thanks.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Crosby is back on the DL
It’s a familiar place for him as well.
rlpete - July 7, 2008
Khalil Greene then.
Or even, I hesitate to say it, Ronny Cedeno.
DGU - July 7, 2008
I'd rather have Jack Wilson than Crosby,
though I’m not sure that either would be enough of an upgrade to justify the cost—especially if Sean Gallagher is part of the cost.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
No way Gallagher goes for Wilson.
Gallagher’s value is high. Young, cheap, projectable, pitching well now. That’s gold in this market.
The Dodgers are moving on Wilson, I heard.
DGU - July 7, 2008
I find this fascinating...
How do you come up with this stuff?
Also, doesn’t it make more sense to put Seth McClung in a long relief role rather than Bush?
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
Do you think Bush is headed to the bullpen?
He’s been good lately.
arrowman - July 7, 2008
IIRC, he almost pitched a no-no in the last week or so.
And I should know, because I used my evil power to break it up.
daver - July 7, 2008
C.C's benefit.........
The real benefit the Brewers will get is in the First Round 3 of 5 Playoffs…... Two possible starts….... A crap shoot for every team in that round…...... Otherwise, they paid a very high price (rent) to win may two three extra regular season wins….. Both Central teams will be in the Playoffs…...
James031 - July 7, 2008
Not really....
If CC walks and signs somewhere else, dont the Brewers get 2 first rounders?
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
Yes they do.
Not a bad move for the Brewers considering the strength of the farm system. They have confidence in their scouts that if CC does walk, IMHO he will, then they get to replenish the farm system somewhat with two picks.
Tangled Up In Blue - July 7, 2008
Yep
And keep this in mind. As great a prospect as Matt LaPorta is he is below average defensively and without a position on the Brewers given Fielder at 1st and Braun in left. So the Brewers end up trading a guy who was never going to fit in their lineup in exchange for an ace pitcher. And if Sabathia leaves, they get two 1st round draft picks that will enable them to select “better fits” than LaPorta.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
LaPorta played RF for the AA Huntsville Stars
70 out of 77 games
flachimesa - July 7, 2008
He only played 7 games in LF
flachimesa - July 7, 2008
Ever hear of Corey Hart ?
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Didn't he do a cover of an Elvis song in the 80s?
malicedoom - July 7, 2008
Nah... he wore his sunglases at night.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
Wow
That picture just happens to be on our fantasy baseball front page right now.
MikeOxbyg - July 7, 2008
From one dork to another...
I salute you sir.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
Yes, I'm very much aware of Hart
I’m simply stating that he played RF more than LF. You’re the one that failed to mention Hart in your post.
Moving forward, LaPorta is now an Indian.
flachimesa - July 7, 2008
Hart is fast enough to play center
Cameron is getting old.
arrowman - July 7, 2008
Gee, the media is now NOT talking about...
“1908.” It’s all CC. Sounds as if the ‘burden’ of winning has moved 90 miles north. From the hype this has generated in less than 24 hours, You’d think CC is the combination of Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, and Randy Johnson.
Does it not seem to appear the pressure is now on the Crew….to win…everything???
I heard copy such as this on ESPN News: “The Brewers have no where to go but UP, now!”
Oh, really? Looks like all eyes are going to be on Milwaukee, since they are now the flavor of the day. Seems as if the Cubs can go about their business without the media glare….which of course, would heat up assuming they win the division—but right now, they can become a “below the fold’ story…the Brewers can capture all the press.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - July 7, 2008
Several weeks ago the Brewers were 9 something games under .500
So yes they did start the season off very slowly. Which makes their resurgence and status in the standings right now all the more impressive. They are not the flavor of the day. Rather they are a damned fine young ballclub that seems to have captured its mo-jo.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Yeah! Go Brewers!
daver - July 7, 2008
Never 9 games under .500 in 2008!
Don’ t let facts stop you from pushing your point. The worse the Brewers were was 4 games under after a 5 game losing streak in mid May.
billybuck - July 7, 2008
Good Point
Let the lime-light hit the Brew-crew for a while. Let the Cubs be forced to show everyone why they deserve the division. Go out and prove it. A perfect situation a team managed by Lou.
arrowman - July 7, 2008
It comes down to THIS...
Thanks to Doug Melvin’s masterful job in building a first-class player development system the Brewers are able to pull off a mid-season blockbuster like this. Meanwhile Jim Hendry is reduced to searching through the bin of overpriced pitchers that other teams are desperate to dump or reclamation projects because he doesn’t have elite prospects to offer up in trade.
The 2008 Cubs are engineered to win NOW. We are a veteran laden lineup and pitching staff benefiting from what are likely the best years remaining in the tank for a number of guys (e.g., Lee, DeRosa, Soriano (his pre-injury pace), Kosuke, Wood, Dempster, Lilly, Howry). It will be further tragedy in the wretched history of this franchise if we fail to get to the World Series with this bunch.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Always a ray of sunshine,
aren’t you?
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - July 7, 2008
Do you disagree with any of the assertions?
Or are you one of the charter members of the club that wants to poo-poo the addition of CC Sabathia in Milwaukee.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
No one is saying the aquisition of CC is trival MDBNIU....
but most of us aren’t willing to run around screaming in terror like a 2nd grader in the middle of a thunderstorm about it. The Brewers got better….we get it.
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
+1
But don’t expect MDBNIU to respond to this post. He’d rather continue to erect strawmen to further inflate his blimp-sized ego. (Did I just mix a metaphor?)
daver - July 7, 2008
+1 and +1
Its really just the same post every time by MDBNIU…he just restructures the sentences once in a while to give the same tired argument a different “flare”.
storkysm - July 7, 2008
He's just trying to meet the minimum 14 pieces of flair required.
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair
that they made the Jews wear.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
Godwin!
The conversation is ended. Thanks for playing.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I also didn't see him respond to the Brewers never being 9 games under 500
a few posts above.
diehardmark - July 7, 2008
That was a mistake
I made that mistake originally. I thought I read it somewhere.
Maybe the Brewers were once 9 games out.
The cubs just had a bad stretch of weeks. It’s doubtful they will continue. More than likely they will go back to the form that had them 20 over 500.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
Brewers biggest deficit this year was...
... 8.5 games on June 14.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Confusion
I think people are getting games out of first place and games under .500 confused….
LT - July 7, 2008
Brewers were never 8 games under .500, either.
Most games under .500 for Milwaukee: 4, last on May 25. It is SO easy to look this stuff up on baseball-reference.com.
Al Yellon - July 8, 2008
“No one is saying the aquisition of CC is trival MDBNIU….”
Actually, it appears many posters are saying just that.
I’d like to think there is middle ground between screaming like a 2nd grader and thinking it’s trivial.
Any rotation that replaces Suppan with CC is definitely upgraded. However, the Cubs still have the better bullpen and better team IMO.
salparadise23 - July 7, 2008
I assume they replaced Bush
Suppan is not going to the bullpen.
Doggie Stalker - July 7, 2008
OK...I call
who is saying the CC trade is trival?
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Not me.
The deal sent a chill down my spine when I first read about it last night, and I still feel a little nauseous. It’s a huge story. But Sabathia doesn’t guarantee the Brewers anything except a much-improved starting rotation on paper. He hasn’t thrown a pitch for the Brew Crew yet, and the Cubs are still a damn good team.
daver - July 7, 2008
I agree with you.
I add: who is to say that Sabathia, and/or Sheets will stay healthy?
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
They only really need one of them to stay healthy
I believe that CC is more of an insurance policy on Sheets.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
In reality
They need both to stay healthy to get to the postseason.
I really don’t get the downgrading and trash about Zambrano saying Sheets is better. They are equal.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
I do disagree with your assertion that Corey Hart
would block a talent like LaPorta.
Rick B - July 7, 2008
Man,
It’s not a masterful job by Doug Melvin. First of all the farm system was in good order when he cam aboard. Secondly, any GM that fails to get the right mix of talent to win the division and not make the playoffs since 1982, consequently has many high draft picks. The credit goes to their scouts. If the Brewers don’t make the playoffs, Melvin is out of a job.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
to further your point...
He goes out and drafts a DH in hopes of one day trading for a rental SP with like a million innings on his arm? Brilliant!
By the way… If Sheets or C.C. go out and sign with one of the teams with the bottom half records in MLB, the Brewers will NOT earn additional draft picks.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
They will still get the two draft picks,
but they will get a 2nd round pick instead of a 1st round pick. They also get the sandwich pick.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
I could be wrong
but I think they could get a first round pick if the team that signs CC next season is picking in the second half of round 1 (which is likely)—same goes for Sheets, so the Brewers could potentially have 3 first round picks next year plus sandwich picks.
tomas21 - July 7, 2008
You are correct.
My reply was to IowaCubs, who thought that they wouldn’t get any picks. They definitely get the picks; their level is determined by the signing club’s record.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
Brewers rule!
daver - July 7, 2008
I'm with you man...
Good bye cruel world. I’m DONE with the Cubs. D-O-N-E, DONE. God Bless the United Beer States of Melvin.
P.S. Has anyone seen my six pack of High Life?
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
The 2008 Cubs are in first place NOW
The Brewers, through the first half of the season, have not been as good of a team as the Cubs. Thus, it was incumbent upon Doug Melvin to make a bold move. What he did, if we can believe cwyers’ calculations, is to improve to Brewers by 1.5 wins. They are currently 3.5 games behind.
The Cubs have been built (largely through FA, an avenue not open to Melvin with the Brewers’ tighter budget) to win, and they are winning more than any other NL team. Thus, Jim Hendry has done his job.
Now, it’s very likely that both the Brewers and Cubs will make the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, everything is a crap-shoot. Failing to get to the WS could be based on weather, wind direction, an ill SP, a red-hot cleanup batter, or a bad hop on the infield. It won’t necessarily be Lou’s fault, Hendry’s fault, Z’s fault, or the grounds crew’s fault. It definitely won’t be due to the “wretched history” of the franchise.
This is an excellent team, and they’ve weathered a tough travel month while maintaining their grip on first place. Why don’t you just sit back and enjoy the ride?
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
Please don't cloud my mind with
logic. All is lost, all is lost!
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
What it really boils down to is this...
Can C.C. adjust quickly to the NL? If he can adjust quickly, then I assume he will get as many wins as Gallardo would have, were he healthy. The real problem lies in the bullpen for the Brewers. With this trade, they have no room to upgrade the bullpen in any significant way. So C.C. can pitch great all he wants, when they have to turn it over to the bullpen, (which they will, imagine a tired Sabathia running the bases & having to bat), then he becomes only a every 5th day guy. I’m not afraid of the Brewers, they are going to have to out hit the Cubs, which I know they can’t.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
Perhaps you are unfamilar with misters Fielder, Braun, Hart and Weeks
The Brewers have demonstrated they can score runs with anybody.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Woo hoo!! Brew Crew!!!
daver - July 7, 2008
Perhaps you are unfamilar with misters Torres, Mota and Gagne
The Brewers have demonstrated they can give up runs with anybody.
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Thank you!
That’s the real issue…Eric Gagne as your “closer” up north!
storkysm - July 7, 2008
Wrong
Look at the blown saves of the Brewers versus the Cubs as of July 7th. I’m not saying that Milwaukee has a good bullpen, but bottom line that cast of crap they have in their bullpen hasn’t hurt them that badly. The addition of Sabathia takes further burden off the pen. And who is to say that Doug Melvin wont’ agressively add to that bullpen prior to the deadline?
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Takes the burden off them
every five days.
Sabathia is a great asset for them. But he is far from a be-all, end-all cure that guarantees playoffness for the Brewers.
And, yes, I’d say the exact same thing if we landed him.
neverAcquiesce - July 7, 2008
Johan Santana
tony412 - July 7, 2008
Check
and mate.
neverAcquiesce - July 7, 2008
Until Melvin adds a closer I stand by my assertion that their bullpen is less than mediocre.
Gagne is done, and Torres isn’t much better.
storkysm - July 7, 2008
Johan Santana
tony412 - July 7, 2008
Dont the Brewers
Have close to double the amount of blown saves we have?
HIGGY - July 7, 2008
no...
Brewers 11
Cubs 13
by my count
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
ouch
Mapmaker - July 7, 2008
How many of those Cub blown saves...
... turned into wins? (IIRC, at least a couple in April vs. Pittsburgh and Philly)
And how many did the Brewers turn into wins?
Till someone counts these up, we’ll have no answer as to whether this is a significant number or not.
Al Yellon - July 7, 2008
Kerry Wood
has 4 wins, so I’d guess at least 4 of the Cubs blown saves were wins.
tomas21 - July 7, 2008
Can't Blown saves start in the 7th inning??
So if the bullpen blows a lead late, isn’t that a blown save?
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
Yes.
Al Yellon - July 8, 2008
Cub bullpen stinks
Here is Baseball Prospectus’ rating of the top NL bullpens for this year.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
Correction: The Brewers can hit HRs with anyone
They are 6th in the MLB in slugging and 4th in the MLB in HRs. Meanwhile they are 15th in runs scored and 18th in OBP.
Their pitching staff is 12th in ERA and yet they have the 7th best record in baseball and are 10 games offer .500 despite scoring just 11 more runs than they have given up.
It’s good for the Brew Crew they got Sabathia. I have a feeling they will suffer a bad July and August just like they did last year. Their numbers versus their record just beg for an adjustment in the loss column.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Johan Santana
tony412 - July 7, 2008
Again with a Weeks mention? Really?
208/317/362
Weeks is barely a ML player…I hope they trot him out every single day for the rest of the season
JB 23 - July 7, 2008
They've also demonstrated that they can commit errors better than anybody.
DeRoMyHero - July 7, 2008
And yet
They trail the Cubs by 70+ runs this year. Yes, they can score, but don’t forget that we are leading them in that department. They are very hot right now, but I would not worry about how many runs they score until they actually take a lead.
Kornchex - July 7, 2008
Yawn
Getting an Ace starting pitcher, which is what CC is, might help the Brewers pick up 3-6 extra wins or so. The only thing he really helps is if they get to the playoffs. Then he will help immeassurably. If they get to the playoffs. And if they don’t, I don’t see them signing him long term. So it could be a very expensive bust.
Here’s the thing, it doesn’t affect us. The only thing the Cubs have to do is keep winning. Forget about the Brewers, the cardinals, any other team in the league. As long as we keep playing well, keep our house in order, maybe make a nice trade down the line, we should be okay.
brokenland - July 7, 2008
Yawn?
Not to say the sky is falling, but this trade is a big deal. I don’t know where people get these projections like 3-6 wins. What is that based on? Slide CC in for the Brewers worst pitcher—you have to assume he’ll get 3-6 more wins by himself over the course of the next three months than the number 5 starter would get. That’s only betw. 1 and 2 wins per month, which is surely an amount an ace should outperform a number 5 guy .
But then add the effects on the bullpen—all the innings CC chews up that the number 5 guy had to slough onto the pen. That will keep them more fresh and better able to salvage games started by others.
And add the effects on momentum—now the Brewers have two guys, CC and Sheets, who can stop a losing streak cold even without much run support.
So how much does it help them? I have no idea, no one can. But claiming its some trivial deal is crazy—he’s the reigning Cy Young winner, and he’s going to a team that is only 3 1/2 back and has tons of offense. As I said, this isn’t the end of the world. But it makes the Brewers a significantly better team over the last three months.
Orval Overall - July 7, 2008
Would you yawn if it were the Cubs getting CC?
3-6 extra wins is a big deal, imo.
arrowman - July 7, 2008
But they didn't
it still isn’t the end of the season, the world or our playoff and WS hopes. As DeRoMyHero has stated their are a lot of games still to play and a lot of things that could happen that affect the end results.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I'm more familiar
than you are… Hart is hot and cold. Fielder is great, Braun is very good, and Weeks is on the downside. I don’t think they can out hit the Cubs, you can think what you want. I know that going out and making a splash for a SP, when they really need a bull-pen guy is a calculated risk; which I believe will ultimately lose Melvin his job.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
Braun's good at hit HRs
and great at striking out.
How is this very good? I’m amazed he made the All-Star team.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
Braun is a bona fide slugger and is VERY good.
I would tend to call him great and relegate Fielder to very good….Braun is an outstanidng pure hitter with incredible power; neither he nor Prince are good Fielders though (pun intended).
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
I going to disagree with you on this...
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
the spelling or the premise? ;c-)
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
both
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Well.....
if we think of pure hitter in the sense of Ted Williams or George Brett, then i understand the disagreement. I watched him play in the minors and then saw what he did after he was called up last year (almost unprecedented to hit 34 HR’s in your first 450 big league ab’s with an OPS of over 1.0).
He’s not on as torrid a pace this year-but is playing through a hand injury and the league has caught up to him-but the guy is a slugger—i don’t see how anyome can deny that.
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
Well....
slugger
equalsoutstanding pure hittersantoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Slugger!=pure hitter
unless we have redefined the term.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I was just under the impression that we defined those terms like this...
slugger!
outstanding pure hitter
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
He hits well for average and he takes his walks, too.
What more do you want from the kid? Some bunting for base hits?
cwyers - July 7, 2008
Pure Hitter:
On the subject of PURE…
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
48 BB in 800 AB....wait what?
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
This is what happens when I trust my memory...
...rather than actually looking things up. Sorry about that.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
He takes walks?
This is a huge oversight on your part.
He takes walks in the same way Theriot hits HRs.
As Santo said: 48 walks and 184 Ks in 800 ABs.
He strikes out almost once out of every 4 at-bats and walks once out of every 20 at-bats. That’s terrible.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
I agree to a point--except we seem too black and white
Dunn is more of a Dave Kingman type-great HR hitter-but not really a very good hitter. Give credit to Dunn for at least drawing walks.
Pujols is about as good a RH hitter as I’ve ever seen or heard of..he’s inhuman. He may very well be slugging pure hitter personified.
Somewhere in between is young Braun who is still wet behind the ears and has his best work ahead of him. I would submit that when the smoke clears—he’ll more closely resemble Pujols than Dunn. Braun runs and hits for average..over time his D should at least rise to average in the OF.
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
Sorry, but you've got these guys confused
Dunn and Pujols both take walks. They have a great baseball eye. Braun does not have a great baseball eye. Throughout their entire careers, Dunn and Pujols have had 1:1 BB:K ratios. Throughout his career, Braun has had BB:K ratios around 1:5 or 1:4. He might be somewhere in between when it comes to .AVG but getting on base and not causing an out is just as important as putting the ball into play.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
The comment wasn't directed at you.
Also, all good power hitters strike out a lot. It goes hand in hand. While I don’t like Braun, because he can’t play defense to save his life, I still respect that he is a very good hitter. How will he end up? Depends. I liken him to Adam Dunn, with even less defensive ability, and baseball smarts.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
Dude, you really gotta figure out the reply function.
daver - July 7, 2008
Me?
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
There ya go!
daver - July 7, 2008
Dunn and Braun are tottally different hitters
Dunn’s OBP this year is in the top 15 of all NL batters and he is hitting just .228. If Braun was hitting .228, he’d be lucky to have an OBP higher than .275.
Both of them hit HRs, but that’s about all they have in common.
IllinoisCubs - July 7, 2008
I'm not talking about comparing with this year's numbers...
I’m talking overall how I think Braun will end up.
Jimmyeatworld - July 7, 2008
Yeah...the reply feature makes it much easier to understand who your talking to.
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
I wholeheartedly concur.
daver - July 7, 2008
Thank for the support
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Don't the Brewers have to offer CC arbitration to get those 2 picks?
Of course I’m sure they will since he probably doesn’t want to go back there and probably wants a long term deal.
LT - July 7, 2008
They won't get the picks...
if CC or Sheets sign with clubs in the bottom 1/2 in winning pct. of MLB.
IowaCubs- - July 7, 2008
Moderated Debate Over at ESPN
Buster Olney is moderating a discussion on the impact on the NL Central over a ESPN. I’m not criticizing this crowd… I’m just saying.
AlaskaFan - July 7, 2008
Is CC athletic?
How is he off the mound? Defense with bunting etc…
He must have the “complete” game now and not the DH game that he did well at in the AL.
I reserve to see what will happen. The NL is more of a physical game for the pitchers then the AL
Can CC be that physical and not break down? He is a big man as was Gracia and Colon, but so is BIG Z.
This is not Earth shattering. The Cubs just need to keep on. Take care of their business.
Scott G F - July 7, 2008
Hm, you may be on to something with this whole bunting thing.
I’m really trying to cut back on the weight jokes here, but picture for a moment Sabathia and Fielder converging on a slow rolling bunt to the right side.
daver - July 7, 2008
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
Yes, that's exactly what I was picturing in my head.
daver - July 7, 2008
Really? Exactly? You're more warped than I thought.
santoswoodenlegs - July 7, 2008
You can
Take off the rumored tag now. It’s official. Pretty much was yesterday. Don’t know why anyone thought it was falling through.
lamentir - July 7, 2008
Cubs vs. Cardinals vs. Brewers
From an hour or so ago, live chat, ESPN.
HERE
malicedoom - July 7, 2008
Can't go there now
Have to work but anyone up for counting the number of times they say 1908 ?
Doggie Stalker - July 7, 2008
Why the cheap shots Jayson Stark?
In the middle of praising the Cubs, he has to throw in this little nugget:
“Harden is a bigger difference-maker than Fuentes, who hasn’t pitched well lately. Of course, since they’re the Cubs, they’d probably trade for him and he’d get hit with a line drive in his first inning at Wrigley.”
And then while he’s on the ground writhing in pain, a goat sneaks up and mounts him from behind, right Jayson? Honestly…
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
Actually...
...for whatever reason, I laughed at that instead of getting pissed off. Not sure why – probably because he’s right? No, I dunno. I get where you’re coming from but I just shrugged it off as light-hearted and laughed.
malicedoom - July 7, 2008
Yeah I tend to shrug that stuff off as well
because I’m so used to it by now. I only mention it because the rest of his analysis was pretty fair and accurate, but it seems like those national media types can never resist the easy joke.
Goodie1969 - July 7, 2008
I took it as light-hearted and
Implying that the Cubs are somewhat star-crossed. It’s true. So what? I don’t think there was any malice in that.
Shanghai Badger - July 7, 2008
I'm not offended either...
Harden has long been called the AL’s Prior..and Prior did get hit with a line drive (after the infamous collision with Giles).
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
Can't go there now
Have to work but anyone up for counting the number of times they say 1908 ?
Doggie Stalker - July 7, 2008
We won't know how this affects the NL Central....
AND, even though I wanted the Cubs to get CC, the doubts would have remained.
He has the skills to make a difference, that is a fact. However, not being a stats guy, I wonder how AL pitchers translate to NL baseball. I do know that Hudson was much better with the A’s than with the Braves.
CC will now have to play in the NL. He will get less IP, a plus for him and the Brewers….provided that the shift of whatever SP to the bullpen helps the Brewers. CC will, his hitting stats being great, now have to hit in EVERY game he pitches, not just the interleague games played in the NL. He will be pitched to as a HITTER, not a pitcher. He will leave games earlier, having to be pinch-hit for. Then we are in the bullpen.
Yes, the Brewers made the deal and I wish the Cubs had. However, he would have been MORE of an asset to the Cubs than he will be to the Brewers (see pen, bull). So, I do NOT see his success with the Brewers as being as great as it would have been with the Cubs.
Jim Hendry is NOT in the corner sucking his thumb and trying to get the valium bottle open. We shouldn’t be either. We have LESS to do to make a great team greater. I do not think the CC signing by the Brewers guarantees them anything, just a better potential to win every 5th day.
crazymountain - July 7, 2008
Amen!
And let us not forget-even though this year seems different-Sheets has never been know as an iron horse-i wish him no ill-but his history is what it is.
I can also envision CC going from first to third on a gapper…it’ll be interesting to see how well a guy his size plays all phases-who knows though-he might be another Rick Rueschel-the big daddy who was solid in all aspects-including his gut.
cubfever7 - July 7, 2008
Why
is less IP a “plus” for the Brewers? Isn’t the idea to have CC pitch as many IP as possible so they don’t have to use the pen so much?
danimal15 - July 7, 2008
It is a plus because he will have LESS wear and tear on his body.
In other words, he will rest more because he will not be throwing 8 or 9 innings on a regular basis. This IS the national league, we still play baseball, not home run derby. He will pitch less. That is a good thing. Whether he will or not is to be seen. The Brewers have a bad bullpen. CC might get MORE IP with the Brewers. I don’t think ANY pitcher in todays NL game can put 250 innings per year anymore. That era is gone. Anyway, none of todays pitchers are conditioned for it. Less IP = more longevity.
crazymountain - July 7, 2008
convuluted
The Brewers are trying to win games. CC Sabathia is a proven innings eater. I agree that it’s pointless to put “wear and tear” on a pitcher’s arm unnecessarily,. but you seem to have the philosophy that every pitch a pitcher throws puts him one step closer to the DL. That is not necessarily the case, especially with a guy like CC who has proven he can handle a large workload. If I’m the Brewers, CC hits in the 7th inning of a close game, and isn’t removed for some bum out of the pen.
danimal15 - July 7, 2008
Where did I say that every pitch puts a pitcher closer to the DL?
I said that pitchers these days cannot throw 250+ innings year in and year out. Hell, Harden can’t even go 200 innings in his best year. CC is a horse but so were Wood and Prior….
crazymountain - July 7, 2008
Gallardo could indeed be back for the Fall
Will Carroll behind the subscriber wall at Baseball Prospectus points out that Gallardo has been a fast healer and is already throwing from 45 feet. He says it is more likely Gallardo would go into their ‘pen than into the rotation.
DGU - July 7, 2008
He has a torn ACL. As someone who completely tore his and had to rehab, he’s not coming back. It took me 9 months of rehab from the time of surgery till the time the army returned me to duty. And that’s just doing soldier stuff, and having to run 2 miles. Not being a top tier athelete. He won’t have a impact this year.
nmcubsfan - July 7, 2008
Torn ACL
Perhaps the Army was being conservative. I’m a long-distance runner; I started running three months after ACL reconstruction and ran a race (although I didn’t exactly set a land speed record) a month after that. Pitching demands stability in both knees (much more than distance running), but a young, strong guy on a serious rehab program might at least have a chance.
aldimond - July 7, 2008
When's the trade deadline?
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
July 31
I should take 30 seconds out of my busy life and just find it myself.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
If
If you listen to all the sky is falling posters the trade deadline was yesterday or Jim Hendry has been prohibited from making trades.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
I see the Braves just recalled Frenchy
http://tinyurl.com/6xpqds
I guess they were just letting him know who was in charge…
LT - July 7, 2008
257th!!
....i have nothing constructive today
Lou In Blue - July 7, 2008
Nice counting, my friend! ah ah ah ah ah
daver - July 7, 2008
Comparisons
Bullpen Cubs
Defense wash
Lineup Wash
Starting rotation 1-5 is pretty close even with Sabathia and this is before Hendry makes a countermove.
puckishcubsfan - July 7, 2008
I liked looking at the spreadsheet
and seeing the transaction….
Ransom for cash
tootle - July 7, 2008
the most important difference
Yost v Piniella
CC is not enough to make up the difference in manager (and bullpens!).
LAcarl519 - July 7, 2008
ESPN (THE ALL KNOWING...)
says that Harden and Burnett are now on the radar.
FSArkCubsFan - July 7, 2008
Really?
I will shit myself if there’s even a rumor of Harden-Cubs. No metaphors. Fecal excrement will smear my pants.
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
think Santos
can make a picture of THAT? :P
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
I guess
I have to man up now
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
try pooping
pellets. that way it’s easier to clean up.
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
Well I've already committed my left nut
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
SP Rich Harden
MDBNIU’s left nut
NittanyCub’s excrement
We need to sweeten the pot …. anyone else??
northsider - July 7, 2008
Hahahah!!!
You’re a funny guy, sir
NittanyCub - July 7, 2008
I still have a chloroform-filled rag
Jayo525 - July 7, 2008
does that mean
we can give Blue-Mike’s RIGHT nut too?
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
Does he HAVE nuts?
crazymountain - July 7, 2008
not anymore.
we’ve traded them for Harden.
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
LOL!!!
sue369 - July 8, 2008
ROFLMAO
slcathena - July 7, 2008
I can give ya 2 Sh!ts that I care about.
TheRiot Police - July 7, 2008
Burnett
Not worth it.
Vegas Brian - July 7, 2008
But What About Burkett?
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Burkett?
How about Dave Dravecky?
danimal15 - July 7, 2008
Dave Dravecky and Eric Show
are the two guys I would never, ever accept as Cubs. They were two of the biggest jerks that played ball in the ‘80s.. Now I’m sorry that their careers ended the way they did. I’m sorry that Show is no longer with us. But I despised those guys, not only because of San Diego but because of their political philosophies and the fact that they were general twerps.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I know Eric Show was a John Birch Society supporter
What, exactly, was Dravecky’s political philosophy and why do you find it objectionable?
Not Bruce Froemming - July 7, 2008
Dravecky
Indeed, Show was a jerk. But I never heard anyone (until now) disparage Dravecky as a person.
danimal15 - July 7, 2008
They both shared the same love
for the extreme right wing.
Plus I have never forgot ‘84 any more than ‘69 or ‘59. Neither the Padres, Mets or Dodgers will ever be forgiven.
bubbamike the one and only - July 7, 2008
I know Dravecky is a born-again Christian
but that doesn’t equate to “extreme right wing.” Certainly not at the same level of a John Bircher.
Not Bruce Froemming - July 7, 2008
Hiding This Thread From My Wife
who is a big time Dave Dravecky fan.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Who knew
I’d spark such controversy with my flippant mention of him. Last I heard, he was on the motivational speaker circuit.
danimal15 - July 7, 2008
Livin' In A Van
down by the river! LOL
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Suppan going to the DL
Well, at least we know for now whose place C.C. is taking in the Crew’s rotation.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2008/07/07/suppan-goes-on-the-dl.aspx
Not Bruce Froemming - July 7, 2008
Interesting to see
that Para pitched out of the bullpen tonight. Are they planning on him being the big acquistion for the bullpen and riding their Ben and CC Horses to the finish line. Or was he just getting work. He last pitched on the 3rd.
TheRiot Police - July 7, 2008
Nevermind...
Evidently Para was to start on Tuesday but because the big fella is starting, Para was moved back to Friday and was available out of the bullpen tonight…
TheRiot Police - July 7, 2008
Rockies win 4-3
carmen_fanzone - July 7, 2008
Phew!
Last I checked Colorado was ahead 3-0.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
That's impossible. The Brewers have CC. They can't lose.
Rick B - July 7, 2008
Sabathia trade, a Sox fan perspective.
Assuming that the prospects sent to Cleveland pan out, this trade is not great for the Sox in years to come.
That’s it.
DrCrawdad - July 7, 2008
Matt LaPorta projects out as a Travis Hafner type
And of course, he is still just a prospect. Cleveland suffers from the hubris of its overrated General Manager Mark Shapiro. He’s had a lot more misses then people care to report. Andy Marte (oops), Josh Barfield (oops), the highly touted outfielders acquired and developed (oops), bullpen acquisitions (oops). Jhnny Prlalta is a brutal shortstop and Victor Martinez has no business being behind the plate. So adding LaPorta seems to exasperate a situation of already having too many DHs.
MDBNIU - July 7, 2008
Exasperate? Big word for you. Too bad it isn't what you think it is.....
crazymountain - July 7, 2008
Exacerbate?
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
lol...
sometimes, Blue Mike exacerbates… but not too often, he doesn’t want to go blind… :P
drewishdrewid - July 7, 2008
/rimshot
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
northsider - July 7, 2008
Good Movie
Schizo - July 8, 2008
You're telling me the guy
who acquired Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon is overrated? Once again, your complete unfounded criticisms prove to be wildly incorrect. Read a book.
gary varsho - July 8, 2008
The value of position scarcity
John Perotto is reporting that the Dodgers may trade Matt Kemp in a deal for Jack Wilson. That is astoundingly, awesomely insane if true. Matt Kemp is a superstar waiting to happen. The Cubs need to jump in and see what plus one of our SSs can buy Matt Kemp. It doesn’t matter that we have a full OF. We will find a place to play Kemp. He would be the CF of the future.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Ned Coletti
Never underestimate the man’s ability to make head-scratching deals.
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Kemp is an outfield version of Cedeno.
I live in LA. He makes more than his share of mental errors in the field and on the base paths, lack of patience at the plate in key situations, etc, etc…
Been there, done that.
LAcarl519 - July 7, 2008
If anything, Kemp may have more talent, but is proving harder to manage.
...that is my guess.
LAcarl519 - July 7, 2008
Mebbe So
Wasn’t Kemp the one that squared off with Iannetta when the Rox were out here?
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
I'll take boneheaded
when he’s likely to have a 30-30 season with plus defense sometime in the next two years. I can live with boneheaded mistakes from time to time when both the HRs and the SBs are running triple the mistakes.
DGU - July 7, 2008
Hmmm........
You say that now but when those mistakes lead to a few losses, will you feel the same way?
What if it’s a close race of a game or two?
cowsarecool220 - July 7, 2008
SIgh.
Let’s presume that Kemp does actually make mistakes more often than your average ballplayer (and let me just state for the record that Bill Plaschke makes a lot of these kinds of claims, and I think he’s the least credible baseball writer to ever walk the earth, so I’m only conceeding this for the sake of arguement.)
Just because a mistake in the field is more VISIBLE than a fly ball caught for an out that would have fallen in for another left fielder, doesn’t make the mistake any WORSE. You have to look at the total picture of a ballplayer. You can cost a team wins without making mistakes, simply by not being very good.
cwyers - July 7, 2008
I Get It!
Sort of like how Joe Morgan does in the broadcast booth!
CaliCub - July 7, 2008
Speaking of Plaschke...
get linky with it.
northsider - July 7, 2008
I can't take it anymore
Will the Sportswriters (national and local) please quit writing that the Cardinals are going to be getting their Aces back soon. I can’t take it anymore. The only Ace that should even be considered relavent is Wainwright. He at least pitched well this year. I mean seriously, You have two other guys, one who charged his Arm Angle and can’t get Triple A Hitters out (Mulder) and you have the other guy coming back from Major Elbow Surgery and has not pitched competitively in a season in a half.
Until they are back and until you see what they got to offer, they don’t count for squat. They don’t scare me and they should not scare the cubs.
These writers are going based purely on past performance and preying on the chicken little mindset of the Cubs fanbase. It is just bad reporting…Aargh
TheRiot Police - July 7, 2008
I agree with you there. Based on one trade the entire sporting and baseball world has now proclaimed the brewers as the best in baseball, and darn near proclaimed them champs in July. Based on ONE trade of a PITCHER, and nothing else. Sometimes this can be too much
nmcubsfan - July 8, 2008
But this is the Cardinals we're talking about
With that in mind, you have to assume Wainwright and Carpenter will come back and win 10 games apiece with a 0.08 combined ERA, and Mulder will comeback as an outfielder and hit 35 homers in 30 games.
Brett Taylor - July 8, 2008
Getting Their Aces Back
I suspect a misprint in the Post-Dispatch, and what they meant to say was “Cardinals Getting Their Asses Handed Back To Them”.
CaliCub - July 8, 2008
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