Cubs Negotiating Multi-Year Deal With John Grabow
by Al on Nov 2, 2009 5:25 PM CST
in News
221 comments
Per Bruce Levine, the Cubs and John Grabow continue to discuss a possible multi-year contract:
Agent Paul Kinzer represents Grabow, who would be the team's left-handed set-up man and a possible back-up closer in the event Carlos Marmol is injured or needs a day off.
The two sides are talking about a two-year deal for anywhere between a total of $6.5 million and $7.5 million. Grabow's people would like a vesting option for a third year added to the contract.
This may be a pretty good indicator, actually, of where the new ownership is heading. In the past, Jim Hendry was pretty open about throwing such vesting options into multiyear deals. If he doesn't give one this time, it may show that the Ricketts ownership group may not be so amenable to such deals.
On the other hand, giving one to a middle reliever might mean the pocketbook is open. Grabow did, though, make $2.3 million in 2009, so a raise to around $3.5 million would be pretty significant.
We, as always, await developments.
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$3.5 for two years seems reasonable.
Grabow is good and I like him in Blue. Besides, we have to figure Gregg and Heilman won’t be back, so the Cubs do need a seasoned arm in the pen.
by chilango2 on Nov 2, 2009 5:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Gregg for sure no.
I wouldn’t say Heilman is a definite no just yet…I can see the Cubs bringing him back (much to our collective dismay).
But I agree, $3.5 million for Grabow is worth it. Well as long as Lou doesn’t go Eyre on him.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Nov 2, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aw man. Say it ain't so.
I can’t see how or why Heilman should be brought back, but given Hendry’s love for all-Notre Dame, you may be right and I will be forced to keep presiding over the Fanclub. I so wanted to transfer power to Florida or some other annoying team and its fanbase.
However, if they look at Heilman as a spot-starter or a long reliever, I wouldn’t lose any sleep. That is, if they pay him less than what he made this year.
by chilango2 on Nov 2, 2009 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He is arbitration eligible, right?
so I doubt it would be for less -
by doofus cubs guy on Nov 2, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. I'm just being facetious.
I’m pretty sure he’s Type-B.
by chilango2 on Nov 2, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I really...
hope a good portion of that money is in incentives.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 2, 2009 5:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It does seem to be a bit on the fat side
given that we could just offer him arb and get him for one year.
Inspector #23 certifies that the above post is sarcasm free, most certainly not what she said, and chock full of intangibles, although regressing to the intangible mean, as you'd expect.
by DGU on Nov 2, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I've just gone...
old school, but this sort of money for middle relievers is just nuts.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 2, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it nuts? Sure
But that’s the price of poker in modern baseball.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 3, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer Conan O'Briens...
old time baseball :)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 3, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not left-handed enough
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
DO NOT WANT
This is a terrible deal for the Cubs. If there’s one pitcher they need to re-sign it’s Rich Harden. LOOGYs are a dime a dozen, and Grabow is only an average one at that. I’d rather stick with some combination of Marshall/Gorzellany/Waddell/Gaub. Multi-year deals for average relivers is just bad business
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 5:51 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
i think im one of the few people that has no problems letting harden walk
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind seeing him go
Because 1) he did kind of quit on the team (not that remembers that) and 2) he was very average last season.
Now I would like to bring him back over starting Shark or Gorzelanny every fifth time, but I won’t lose sleep over him becoming the injury problem of another team.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
whoa, what?
When did Harden quit on the team?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When he asked to be shut down for the season
Here and if I can find it there is a radio interview right after this happens where Bruce Levine says the Cubs weren’t exactly pleased with that request.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't really bother me that much
The Cubs season was done and he wanted to protect his arm for next year, which the Cubs have no reason to do if they don’t plan on keeping him
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think of it this way
Clubhouse chemistry is supposed to matter and here we have a guy who quit to save his own arm with two weeks left in a lost season. I don’t know how his teammates don’t hate him for that. Imagine if Zambrano does that same thing (not saying you would care, but others would).
Now could it end up being better for all involved? Maybe, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the fan reaction to zambrano doing that would be equal to ted lilly eating a baby
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VERY TRUE ....
A noose would have been fitted around Z’s neck . With thousands of fans waiting to spring the trap door .
by cubs north on Nov 2, 2009 11:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If he's considered a clubhouse 'good guy'
I don’t think anyone would care. Frustrations were pretty high all around at that point. Plus I’m more likely to trust the player anyway when it comes to injuries
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Harden was not extremely average last season
He was extremely unlucky
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that and
it took a while for people to realize harden only throws 2 pitches
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who cares if he throws two pitches...
if both of them are two of the best in baseball?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a little leaguer can hit a fastball and change up
especially if the pitcher cant locate them
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you dont really believe that
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by DC Cubbie on Nov 2, 2009 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have a guy with two really good pitches
Than a guy who can throw a bunch of mediocre ones
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mariano Rivera
Only throws one pitch. But he throws it real good.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Nov 2, 2009 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that might be just enough for a relief pitcher...
but not enough for a starter. Plus, since he pitches away from contact he really shortens his outings.
Like some, i’m indifferent to Rich Harden. Unless he stays a 5th starter and gets paid as such.
by RMRZisMYmanCRUSH on Nov 2, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at his numbers
His HR/9 was really high and his BABIP might have been a bit high too. Still I wonder how much of that comes from his arm losing it after going through the rotation too many times in a row.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His HR/9 was way up this year because
His HR/FB was waaaay over his career norms. 15.1% is just unsustainable.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So lets say his HR/FB settles back at his career average
Which is 9.2%, what does that make his FIP this season? Because to me his FIP suggests that his fielding helped him out a bit.
We agree that Harden is an excellent pitcher who was unlucky last season. If the Cubs bring him back, fine, if they don’t, fine. I think the constant injury problems, sore arms, DL stints, and such don’t work well with a team like the Cubs that loves to downplay injuries.
If I knew they would take a responsible plan with Harden that involved a trip to the DL every six weeks or so to rest his arm (or something like that) then I would be all for him coming back, assuming of course that he isn’t going to wuss out at the end of the season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Harden is pretty much the ultimate Three True Outcomes pitcher
That 9.2% includes this year’s numbers, so you have to look at his previous years if you want to do this experiment. If so that’s a 7.7% If we assume that’s his TTL then he would only have given up ~12 HR this year. Then his FIP would have been 3.24
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
Well that makes me rethink a lot. Screw him quitting with a 3.24 FIP. I was thinking it would end up being around 4 still.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His career numbers suggest his HR rate should have been half of what it was
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and doesn't even take BABIP into accout
he was a little unlucky there too, but that doesn’t affect FIP at all
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
Seeing that his numbers would end up being that good (3.25 FIP, what around a 3.15 ERA since our D helped him?) that forgives a whole lot in my mind.
Now I would say I want him back, but not for a huge deal still. his injury history still concerns me, especially after a pretty healthy season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea how the market will price Harden
It will be really interesting to see
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs offer him arb he might end up taking it if things are looking bleak
which would be awesome
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have said from the beginning
that I don’t see why the Cubs wouldn’t offer arb to Harden. He is a type A free agent. Getting him back on a 1 year deal for (assuming) around $10 million for a pitcher of his caliber would be a pretty good deal in my opinion. If you lose him, though, you get 2 (that is two) first round picks.
Why wouldn’t you. Seems to be a good outcome either way.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Nov 2, 2009 8:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Right. I forgot that he is type B.
WHY!!!!
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Nov 2, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he has been injured and not pitched that well
That makes him a “B”
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More because Elias's sytem is incredibly antiquated
I still can’t get over the fact that Grabow is type A and Harden is Type B
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its simple
Harden is no longer an elite pitcher, he is injury prone, and can only give a team 5 innings per start. Grabow on the other hand has been one of the most consistent lefy relievers in all of baseball for the last few years.
by tripdenten on Nov 4, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope the Cubs offer him arb
If they don’t resign him I won’t be too upset. If they don’t offer arb though that’s a stupid decision. I can’t believe Harden is a Type B
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that LOOGYs are not a dime a dozen to Lou.
The plus side here is that we’ll finally have a LH reliever Lou trusts and that ends a lot of other frustrations.
Inspector #23 certifies that the above post is sarcasm free, most certainly not what she said, and chock full of intangibles, although regressing to the intangible mean, as you'd expect.
by DGU on Nov 2, 2009 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Lou seemed pretty frustrated with his inability to find the strike zone in November. He does have a little more patience with vets than rookies though (see Stevens and Waddell)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you didnt hear?
the cubs are in the world series!
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
mike gonzalez
use that money on mike gonzalez to be the lefty. nice closer insurance also.
bring back harden.
by kylejo on Nov 2, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do not want Harden
I agree that Grabow doesn’t deserve nearly $4 million per. But Harden’s too fragile, IMO, to invest in further — especially when the Cubs already have three pitchers earning more than $50 million next year.
by elgato on Nov 2, 2009 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What the other pitchers are making means nothing
The Cubs have shown that they can get innings out of Harden, which the A’s could not
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's a matter of priorities
The Cubs have four good starters, three of whom are quite expensive. Rickets also said payroll will only rise slightly. Given that, and the Cubs’ other needs, I don’t think signing Harden makes much sense — unless he’s so desperate to be a Cub that he takes a huge discount.
by elgato on Nov 2, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
go cheap on the 5th starter. save the $ you do have to fill that hole in the outfield.
Mustache be gone!
by digitalbenjamin on Nov 3, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What the other pitchers are making means nothing
unless the team has little payroll flexibility
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
to clarify
It doesn’t matter that the other people who are making money are pitchers as opposed to hitters. I agree that the Cubs rotation depth is pretty good but I Harden v Gorz/F7/Marshall is a pretty big upgrade
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
probably ...
but is replacing Gorz/Marshall with Harden worth NOT getting another bat?
by elgato on Nov 3, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
Mainly because so many of the Cubs bats are due for rebound seasons next year
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so then it WOULD be worth not getting another bat, right?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 9:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's what berselius is saying
He (she?) figures that enough Cubs will bounce back that we don’t need to spend what little money we have on another bat. But I don’t think that we can bet on rebounds by both Soto and Soriano. Even if one has a season like 2008, we still are worse at two positions — left/catcher and second.
So, what’s more valuable?
1) Harden replacing Gorzo/Marshall (when the Cubs already have four good starters).
2) A bat to buffer against disappointing seasons by Soto (who might be a one-season wonder), Soriano (who’s getting older and more fragile) and our second base dudes?
I’d say No. 2 — by a mile.
Finally, Gorzo intrigues me as a fifth starter. He won 14 games for a bad Pittsburgh team two years ago. And I wouldn’t want to give Harden a big, multi-year contract considering our budget and his fragility.
by elgato on Nov 3, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soto rebounding you can count on
There’s very little doubt that he won’t bounce back next year. He had one of the unluckiest seasons at the plate I’ve ever seen. His BABIP was .251 while his expected BABIP was .314. That’s enourmous
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On Soto and Soriano
I worry about Soto only because he came out of nowhere in 2007. By no means am I accusing him of doing something untoward, but it is possible that he had two “career years” at a young age.
I don’t discount the low BABIP, though. (I do worry about his motivation and a bit about his baseball IQ)
Soriano was hampered by his knee, but the knee didn’t make him swing at sliders in the opposite batter’s box.
I hope you are correct, but I’d like to see one more bat (assuming Bradley is indeed gone)
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano has always swung at those sliders
And still had lots of success before this season. I think these are independent thing
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True.
I suppose that’s not fair to lump that in. We’ll see how he does.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
something else to remember is that the knee injury cost him a lot on defense too
It wasn’t just his weak bat that gave him a -0.8 WAR last year
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No question
The speed may never fully come back, though, which helps him overrun bad jumps. And also helped mitigate offensive slumps (albeit it’s hard to if one isn’t reaching base at all).
It’s a big year for both Soto and Soriano.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's optimistic
You are forgetting to mention the fact that Soto can not hit a breaking ball. Teams figured this out last season. Soto looks like another Rick Wilkins in the making.
If he gets in shape, lays off the b-rips, and jaramillo coaches him up on hitting a curve, he could return to 2008 level.
by tripdenten on Nov 4, 2009 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But...but...you just said he can't hit a breaking ball.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So?
He can’t what’s your point? Does that mean he can’t learn how to hit one?
by tripdenten on Nov 4, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying Soto put up his '08 numbers...
…without being able to hit breaking balls?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
He was a rookie in 2008, the league did not necessarily know how to pitch to him yet, he was challenged with a lot of fastballs. Over the course of the season, teams figured out he struggled with hitting breaking balls. In 2009, it seemed like he saw a lot less fastballs and a heavier dose of breaking balls. He occasionally will crush a hanger, but overall he does handle breaking balls very well. In 2008 Soto feasted on fastballs.
by tripdenten on Nov 4, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
typo...
does not handle breaking balls very well, sorry.
by tripdenten on Nov 4, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Sorry
You never even bothered to check out his statistics vs various pitches. Go to Fangraphs to get an education.
2008
wFB 16.9 wSL -3.5 wCB 3.4
2009
wFB 4.2 wSL -11.1 wCB -4.5
Soto actually declined more versus fastballs than either sliders or curveballs.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Nov 5, 2009 7:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks - I had a feeling there was more to the story.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 9, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
Pitchers threw MORE fastballs and FEWER sliders and curveballs to him last year.
You are the weakest link, goodbye.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Nov 5, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
that was supposed to be agreement.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also ...
it’s hard to size up the dominos right now. Trading Milton and the fallout from that — who goes with him, how much money does he still cost the Cubs? — are questions that probably affect everything else.
I understand that you strongly value Harden’s talent, and I personally like him as a guy and a player. But I just don’t see him back unless a lot of other moves are made — maybe the trades of Gorzo and Wells?
by elgato on Nov 3, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought so, but was clarifying...
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOOGYs are a dime a dozen ?
This would explain why the Cubs did not have an effective one for most of two seasons ? I grant you much of that was Lou’s total misuse of LOOGYs but still a good one is not a dime a dozen.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You could get better production v LHP from Jason Waddell for league minimum
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
waddells not even on the team
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Never let the facts get in the way
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
whoops
my point still stands that there are lefty arms in the minors that teams can get for free to get LHP out
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If LOOGYSs are a dime a dozen...
Why did it take us half a year to find a quality lefty pen guy. Neal Cotts threw 19 games for us ffs. Second of all, Grabow’s not just a LOOGY, and he’s definitely an above-average reliever.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 2, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If LOOGYs weren't a dime a dozen
Why did it take forever for Ohman and Beimel to get signed last year. Ohman got a non-guaranteed contract and is a much better LH reliever than Grabow
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Both are erratic head cases
Some teams take that into account.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
whoa, what?
Since when?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Since both of them were not offered Årb after good seasons.
The Braves did not like Ohman and made no attempt to keep him. He has a rep as a troublesome big mouth.
Beimel of course was also not offered arbitration which might have had something do with his late night bar escapades http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BEIMEL+INCIDENT+UPSETS+TEAMMATES+RELIEVER+ADMITS+HE+CUT+HIS+HAND+IN…-a0152603711
He had to sign with the NATS in large part because of his reputation. He had a great year in 2008 but his
behavior dramatically damaged his value.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 3, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's your opinion
I think it had a lot more to do with the market.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 7:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A lefty with an ERA of just about two had to sign with the NATIONALS
a month after the start of Spring Training ? I think that is a little more than market forces.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 3, 2009 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd tend to agree with that
LH’s hang on forever because GM’s love them. Whether they really are a dime a dozen or not, they aren’t perceived as such.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought they were offered arb, but didn't take it
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Neither was offered arb.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 3, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ohman's better than Grabow...
Okay chief. And what do you base that on?
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 3, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Comparing their career splits
Will Ohman v LHB: .648 OPS against
Will Ohman v RHB: .747 OPS against
John Grabow v LHB: .707 OPS against
John Grabow v RHB: .740 OPS against
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Those statistics are skewed.
Grabow was pretty bad early on in his career, but his numbers have improved significantly. His ERA+ over the past 3 years are 96, 145, and 123.
Ohman on the other hand posted his best season 4 years ago. His ERA+ over the past 3 years: 94, 116, 71.
I think it’s pretty clear that Grabow is superior to Ohman…
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 3, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that if it's a decision between Harden and Grabow...
you keep Harden. But $3.5M/season doesn’t seem like a horrible idea. Grabow was one of the best relievers in a horrendous bullpen last season. Normally, I don’t like paying for bullpen arms, but I think you need to keep him around because there just aren’t many other options here.
by shawndgoldman on Nov 3, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a choice between Harden and Grabow....
First off, Harden will cost a lot more than 3.5m/year. Second of all, it’s really up to Ricketts how much we have to spend, but its not a unilateral choice between solely these two guys.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 3, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nothing against john grabow
i think he is a solid middle reliever, but how many times are the cubs going to hand out a multi-year contract to aging middle relievers with a track record of success before they realize that it is generally a bad use of resources and that very few relievers put up consistent numbers from year to year.
the cubs have half a dozen guys in the system to choose from that could fill that role for the league minimum. you can always trade for an expensive middle reliever during the year if the need arises.
by circuitclout on Nov 2, 2009 5:51 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Grabow doesn't even have a track record of success
He’s just an average reliver, and his splits vs LHP aren’t anything special either
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
grabow has been solid
the last 2 years, throwing more than 70 innings with an ERA+ north of 120 makes him a bit better than average. he’s clearly a useful reliever.
not sure what your point is about splits, cause he isn’t really a LOOGY. So sure, he doesn’t dominate lefties like say George Sherrill does, but he still gets them out while being roughly as effective against righties.
by circuitclout on Nov 2, 2009 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would anyone be paying Grabow $7m over 2 years if he was right handed?
My guess is no, he’d probably get a lesser contract as a righty, non-closer, even with the same stats and splits.
by madcow256 on Nov 2, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course not
Behing a LHP does make a difference
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Generally, yes. With Grabow, apparently it doesnt (similar splits both ways)
Someone with the exact same stats and splits but throwing RH would be making less money, and that makes about as much sense as Lou’s mission to get lefthanded (at the expense of being generally good at hitting a ball).
by madcow256 on Nov 2, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs have this kind of money lying around
Why isn’t it being used for Rich Harden? Why isn’t it being used towards Mike Cameron? Between Grabow, Aaron Miles, and Aaron Heilman we have three easily replaceable players who are using up much needed money.
I’m find with Grabow coming back, I just don’t see why we are using our few precious dollars on him.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 5:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Or for that matter, if you want to improve the pen (with a lefty!) why not go after someone like Mike Gonzalez? He’s a much much much better pitcher than grabow.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gonzalez and/or his Braves counterpart Soriano
Would be much better ways to spend this money. Now Soriano will get closers money from somebody I bet, but Gonzalez shouldn’t be too expensive and like you said he’s a better pitcher than Grabow.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He would be a nice pickup
But I wouldn’t give him all that much given his injury history.
by TJ11 on Nov 2, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion is this:
Because I don’t want to trust the bullpen to Stevens, Berg, Spellcheck and Caridad quite just yet.
by chilango2 on Nov 2, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do the Cubs continue to do this?
Middle relievers are a dime a dozen yet Hendry just loves to dole out multi year deals to them? Just ridiculous.
Note: I like John Grabow. I think he’s a good guy to have in the pen. But if this is what it takes, then let him walk.
by kanderber on Nov 2, 2009 6:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
exactly
Grabow is a good pitcher and did a nice job last season, but he is replaceable.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so was this comment apparently.
:)
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Nov 2, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If i say it twice, that makes it true
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Nov 2, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Same old same old
But if Grabow produces, no one complains.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Nov 2, 2009 6:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If this is true I feel a lot better about this
In a radio interview this morning on WGN-AM 720, Cubs owner Tom Ricketts said that he wants the Cubs’ payroll to remain in the top three in baseball. Signing John Grabow to a new deal would help towards that goal.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it'll be higher than we have been led to believe.
In that case, keeping Grabow is a good thing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 2, 2009 6:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I might have gotten a little to excited
the Cubs are ALREADY the third-highest payroll, so the ~$143mm number Levine quoted last week would likely maintain that
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's what Ricketts said.
That he wanted the payroll to remain in the top three.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 3, 2009 7:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TWRS?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Close to 4 million a year...
for Grabow isn’t really a good thing under just about any circumstances.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 2, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless...
it’s keeping payroll high for the sake of keeping payroll high, without correllation to the talent that it buys.
I like Grabow, but if we’re gonna spend money I’d prefer it on a non-middle reliever.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 3, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm happier if we keep Grabow rather than if Grabow walks
by AussieCub on Nov 2, 2009 6:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather they offer him arb and see him sign with another team
netting the CUbs 2 draft picks. That Grabow is worth more in picks than Harden just boggles the mind
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HEY AUSSIE.....
How was your trip to Wrigley ??
by cubs north on Nov 2, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing some of you forget about Harden
is that he isn’t very efficient. He gets up to 100 pitches by the fourth inning a lot of times, and that puts a big strain on the bullpen. If one of the other starters gets shelled and has to leave a game early, that strain becomes even worse.
I like Harden, but I’d like him a lot more if he could let his defense do some work instead of going to 3-2 counts on every other batter.
I have no problem with Grabow’s signing. I’d perfer one year, but if two years is what the market is bearing, then so be it. LOOGYs don’t necessarily grow on trees; I suppose if the Cubs let Grabow walk, that would leave them with Cotts. How does that make y’all feel?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 2, 2009 6:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's true
But he’s just THAT good in the innings he does pitch that he’s pretty valuable. He’s easily one of the top 10 pitchers in the NL even with the short outings
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
striking out 10 people in 5 innings is cool
but it still taxes the pen
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but 5 innings with very little score chances
Is worth a LOT
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Cotts even going to be able to play next year?
I thought he’d be out for most of the season after his TJS
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 2, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That could be
I’m not sure what his recovery time is. I guess that reinforces my point a bit.
Mike Maddux once said something very perceptive. Most fans think a perfect inning is nine pitches and three strikeouts. He thinks a perfect inning is three pitches and three outs. Get the at-bat over with ASAP.
Like I said, I like Harden, and when he’s on, he can be devastating. But I’m not sure his is a luxury the Cubs can or should afford.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 2, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And today's trivia question
Which former Cubs pitcher did BOTH of those things ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the answer
to all your trivia questions is greg maddux
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Nov 3, 2009 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nah, she may throw in a Sam Fuld question
just to fool you
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 4, 2009 7:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, curve ball!
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't feel bad, Dave
Apparently, Soto wouldn’t have gotten it, either.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 4, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I almost hope he can't pitch, Hendry will bring him back if he can
See Chad Fox. For every Dempster story their are are many more pitchers wasting roster spaces
by TJ11 on Nov 2, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow is not LOOGY , look at the stats.
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by DC Cubbie on Nov 2, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
IT'S HAPPENING!
I’M GONNA WIN THE BALLHAWK CONTEST!
Oh, wait, John Grabow was not in the contest?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Nov 2, 2009 7:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Grabow was listed in the "extra credit" section of the contest. Very small type. Void where prohibited by law.
Send before midnight tonight so you don’t forget. What would you pay? Wait, don’t answer yet! Now for a limited time offer…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 3, 2009 5:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From beyond the grave...
Billy Mays approves this message
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Nov 3, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 3, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Grabow a lot
He’s solid. Yes, it is always a risk signing middle relievers. But Grabow is a notch above your average middle reliever.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Nov 2, 2009 7:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good to see Jimbo is as sensible as ever
this guy even looks like Aaron Miles…sure, lets give him 7 million
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Nov 2, 2009 7:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
grabow isnt scrappy enough to be aaron miles
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 2, 2009 8:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or short enough
Mustache be gone!
by digitalbenjamin on Nov 3, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't overpay again, Hendry
Hendry is bidding against himself, as I don’t think Grabow has many, if any, other suitors. The Cubs should offer him two years at $6.25-6.5 million, and then tell him to take it or leave it.
The Cubs have John Gaub and Sean Marshall to serve as lefties in the pen, or they could go after someone else like Joe Beimel, who’s just as good, if not better, than Grabow.
Hendry will probably end up overpaying in both money and years, just like he did with Bradley.
by TheGrinch13 on Nov 2, 2009 8:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hendry enjoys bidding vs himself
He’s like a drunk at an auction….
by TJ11 on Nov 2, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Beimel
is likely to attract a bigger contract, no?
And I’m not real certain about Gaub (untested, looks promising, but …) and Marshall (could be long man/another starter).
Hendry is NOT bidding against himself. Lefties don’t grow on trees.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 2, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think Grabow has many, if any, other suitors
what leads you to say this?
Mustache be gone!
by digitalbenjamin on Nov 3, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on the overpay
And be very careful on the years. Grabow isn’t a top tier reliever. We can pick up a cheaper alternative when the dust starts to settle, or go from within. Even wait until next season starts and tinker w/ the bullpen via trades. 6.5-7.5 is a lot for a guy that is blessedly average. And anything putting a third year into play makes me nervous.
by Nibbles on Nov 2, 2009 8:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not that big a fan of Grabow
but I could live with any deal that doesn’t guarantee 3 or more years, and a contract that doesn’t have an AAV of 4 million. Short of it is, it sounds promising.
by toonsterwu on Nov 2, 2009 9:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think the word
“reasonable” will be included in contracts this year. No bidding against oneself this year.
I like Grabow, I would sign him at 3.5 a year.
by Grockcubs on Nov 2, 2009 9:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Mr. Ricketts has had a chat with Hendry on how to negotiate a contract.
I hope Jim enjoys his last season
by TJ11 on Nov 2, 2009 9:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If signing Grabow to a new deal
Means every time he goes out and pitches is one less time Aaron Heilman does, then get it done.
by ak123 on Nov 2, 2009 10:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I doubt they would be related since Grabow is a lefty but again with Lou who knows
The only way to make sure Heilman does not throw again for the Cubs is not to offer him arbitration or a contract.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 2, 2009 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is related
This is because if Grabow isn’t resigned I have a hunch they won’t bother with the FA market to sign a new reliever. That means someone with little ML experience would make the bullpen instead.
Lou wouldn’t trust this person nearly as much and that means he would more likely give Heilman an extra inning to pitch.
by ak123 on Nov 3, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I say no
when are we gonna learn that signing setup men to these types of contracts is dumb. See Howry Eyre Hawkins Remlinger and others. You can get better production from Gaub then Grabow maybe.. Yes i know the AFL numbers…
Relievers are the dumbest place to throw big money at. There is only one mariano rivera and joe nathan.
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Nov 2, 2009 11:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not against turning it over to the youngsters
But realistically, the Cubs weren’t going to go into the season depending on youngsters to setup an inconsistent closer in Marmol. If Grabow is willing to take only 2 guaranteed years, I can live with it. He’s really not that good … but I think it’s livable within the context of our payroll and in regards to length. Who knows, maybe he has a good year. I anticipate that they will make a run at another pen arm, if possible, to act as a setup guy, but a guy who might have the potential to close if Marmol runs into problems.
by toonsterwu on Nov 2, 2009 11:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow ok
Grabow is an ok signing. Nothing sounds affordable for a team with little wiggle room. Better without any 3rd year tacked-on.
Harden is as good as gone and he will get alot more than $3.5 million when he signs with another team.
by AboutTheCubs on Nov 2, 2009 11:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
in regards to money
running the numbers the other day and estimating a 4 mil AAV on a Grabow contract (along with letting Gregg go) and making some arbitration guesses, I have the Cubs near 135 million, including Bradley. I’ve heard from multiple people that the DeLuca report on a 140-145 million payroll is likely accurate. If they can clear Bradley without eating the whole deal, that gives Hendry probably at least 10 million million to work with, if not more.
by toonsterwu on Nov 2, 2009 11:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There appears to be something different.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Nov 3, 2009 7:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Page format?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 3, 2009 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
See the front page post.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 3, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another too expensive, too long contract in the works
2 years/$6 million should be it.
by rlpete on Nov 3, 2009 8:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is just bad negotiation...
Relievers last season could be had at bargain prices. There’s no reason to rush this thing. I think the Cubs are making a mistake of timing here.
I mean, Grabow’s a fine player, but what’s the problem with letting him sweat it for a little bit and getting him for 2 years/$4 mil or something in January or February?
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Nov 3, 2009 8:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is the Aaron Miles strategy...
Overpay them quickly so their old team doesn’t scoop them back up.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Nov 3, 2009 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 3, 2009 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh this is so true...
I think that Hendry has this trigger finger sometimes and wants to make news for the sake of making news.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Nov 3, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I really think
a lot of people here love to complain for the sake of complaining.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 3, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only way to know for sure this will be a good signing
is if Hendry ends up signing Grabow from a hospital bed.
Mustache be gone!
by digitalbenjamin on Nov 3, 2009 8:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm happy to learn...
…the Cubs appear to be trying to keep the deal to only two years. Any time I see the phrase “multi-year deal” associated with a veteran relief pitcher, I get nervous. And though Grabow did perform admirably in ’09, his career numbers are really nothing to write home about. Then again, I could see some benefit to having a veteran presence in the bullpen to go with all of the younger arms.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 3, 2009 9:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Grabow/Harden
I hope 2 years is the max on Grabow. LOOGYS aren’t that hard to find and I hope they don’t overpay considering Marshall isn’t too bad (perhaps trade bait as a SP?). Gaub seems like a guy that could fill Grabow’s role if they don’t keep him.
As for Harden, I’m actually not opposed to keeping him if the $$ are reasonable. He still has tremendous upside and could actually be a bargain on a 1 year deal. Any idea on what he’d command if they do offer him arb?
by plenz on Nov 3, 2009 10:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If LOOGYS are so easy to get
I ask again why did the Cubs go nearly two year without an effective one ( well besides Lou dumping Eyre) ? If not Grabow than who ? Gaub is totally untested and certainly not Cotts. Can you get a cheap LOOGY for one year ? Sure they are out there. Can get one that is likely anywhere near as effective as Grabow. I doubt it. So if the Cubs don’t re-sign him and you get to see Lou using Marshall to get one out , Gaub killed by bringing brought up too early or Beimel getting trashed at a bar on clark St before a game what will you say then ? Two years with a vesting option for the 3rd year is not a terrible deal. One nice thing about LOOGYS is they age well.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 3, 2009 11:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more, Jess
Again, I think some people subscribe to the “I bitch, therefore I am” theory.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Nov 3, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good!
This “seems” about right to me:
The two sides are talking about a two-year deal for anywhere between a total of $6.5 million and $7.5 million. Grabow’s people would like a vesting option for a third year added to the contract.
by shawndgoldman on Nov 3, 2009 11:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm backing off a little from my original vehemance to the deal, $$ wise
It’s paying him to be a <1 WAR player, which most bullpen guys are.
But the value of the draft pick compensation from another team signing him is worth a lot too
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 3, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we get the draft pick if we offer him arb.
I think we get him on a one year deal.
So, either, Jim Hendry thinks year two will be a bargain after year one (which it could be if Grabow saves 15 games) or he’s being a nice guy. Jim Hendry is a player friendly GM, which is part of the reason we have Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez on such nice contracts, but it’s also why we’re going to have a Neifi-Blanco-Miles contract. I don’t get the complaining that this deal could be 7.5 instead of 5.5. I do think there’s a place to wonder if we should just take the one year deal, but to me it’s just Jim being Jim – something I don’t find as odious as all the guys here who want a cutthroat GM who saves 1 – 2 M on every deal so he can spend it on a better Gatorade machine.
Inspector #23 certifies that the above post is sarcasm free, most certainly not what she said, and chock full of intangibles, although regressing to the intangible mean, as you'd expect.
by DGU on Nov 3, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
$1M here, $2M there . . . pretty soon you're talking about real money
$2,000,000 to Gathright, $4,900,000 to Miles, paying half of Marquis’ contract and cutting Vizcaino for the privledge of doing so . . . take away a chunk of that, and they could have added a bat for the stretch run.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
$900,000 to Gathright
argh
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What bat was available that would have helped the Cubs?
Don’t tell me you wanted Freddy Sanchez.
Inspector #23 certifies that the above post is sarcasm free, most certainly not what she said, and chock full of intangibles, although regressing to the intangible mean, as you'd expect.
by DGU on Nov 3, 2009 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll answer your question with a question
If you were the GM in July, 2009, and you had $5M available, would you have stood pat?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sigh...
i was hoping for some legitimate changes with new ownership in town
same old stuff, sign aging middle relievers with middling peripherals to contracts 3-4 times similar production you can achieve from using the farm to develop relievers
awesome
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 3, 2009 2:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't be too hasty
From everything I’ve heard/read, I think Ricketts believes he needs to let Hendry do his job to be able to evaluate him fairly.
Whlie he could hamstring the payroll a little for 2011/2012 with this signing, it wouldn’t be all that onerus – so I think he sits back and lets this one happen. “Here’s your budget, Jim. Let’s see what you do with it.”
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow is much needed
Sean Marshall is far from a certainty in any role. And Gaub is untested. Grabow will be a solid move.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Nov 3, 2009 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Grabow
arbitration-eligible and a type A free agent? Why on earth wouldn’t you offer him arbitration—seems like it’s a win-win. If he accepts, you get a good lefty reliever on a one year deal for around 3 or 4 mil tops. If he declines, you get nice picks to hlep restock a system in need of restocking.
Hendry has had poor success signing middle relievers to multi-year deals, you’d think this would be an easy time to avoid doing it again.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Nov 3, 2009 7:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Grabow is going to be the premier lefty out there
He almost surely wants at two year deal so he turns down the arb signs with Mets. Yankees, Red Sox or another team that figures a good LOOGY is is worth two year 6-7 million dollar contract ( maybe with a vesting 3rd year). If they are lucky and the team in question has to cough up a draft picks ( and may not be first round depening on a various factors) except the hell do the Cubs have to be THEIR LOOGY in 2010. Please read above, Cubs went from start of 08 to July of this year without a LOOGY Lou wanted to use , running through half a dozen or so in the process. It is always nice to say I don’t want to give so and so a two year contract but if that is the market and you want and NEED the guy , that is what you have to do.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 4, 2009 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless
we are getting a premiere/irreplaceable talent (which I don’t think you’d argue we are—the guy has a 1.4 whip), or are getting a nice discount before he hits free agency (which I again don’t think we are based on last year’s reliever contracts), then I don’t see signing Grabow to a multi-year deal as being good business.
I don’t have the stats in front of me, but I seem to recall Grabow as not being particularly dominant against lefties, which would mean he’s not a premier LOOGY. He may be an above-average lefty middle reliever, but I don’t see that as being worth a multi-year deal and losing 2 nice draft picks.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Nov 4, 2009 7:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I posted the splits above, comparing him to Ohman
Will Ohman v LHB: .648 OPS against
Will Ohman v RHB: .747 OPS against
John Grabow v LHB: .707 OPS against
John Grabow v RHB: .740 OPS against
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 4, 2009 7:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And, those were debunked above, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 4, 2009 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They were?
Grabow is better at getting lefties out? Somehow I missed that. I’ll believe it if someone shows me FIP splits for the two pitchers
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 4, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point was...
… that Grabow has been better in recent years than Ohman.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 4, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
grabow is not a loogy
i pointed that out the minute he was traded here
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 4, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lou believes he is and that is what matters
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 4, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on what qualifes as premier.
Here are Grabow’s season-by-season OPS splits going back four years:
2006 (vs. LHB/vs. RHB): .732/.761
2007 (vs. LHB/vs. RHB): .604/.828
2008 (vs. LHB/vs. RHB): .617/.663
2009 (vs. LHB/vs. RHB): .614/.698
So he has had a lot of success vs. lefties over the last three years. I wonder whether Hendry’s apparent rush to re-sign Grabow is largely a character/chemistry thing. John seems like a low-key, workhorse-type guy who would provide a veteran presence in what will probably be a largely young bullpen next season. And maybe Hendry, being a “player’s GM” and all, is seeking to reward Grabow for performing so well down the stretch this season.
As long as they keep it to a two-year deal, I can live with it – though your point above about first offering Grabow arbitration makes a lot of sense.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You won't get Grabow for one year
and I can’t see how the rest of you want to risk Lou’s screwing around finding another Lefty he gets along with/will use properly. It is always nice to dream and say well " I don’t want to sign him to a multi-year deal" but you need to deal with reality. Grabow will GET a multi-year deal and it should be with the Cubs. I don’t think he is lights out and if were not for Lou being manager I might consider taking the risk of finding someone else but not under current circumstances. Keep in mind the teams still willing to spend( Mets, Yankees, Red Sox) all have bullpen issues and would likely be happy to make a run at Grabow.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 4, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you would if you offered him arb
And if another team signs him, you get two draft picks. Being a type A free agent reliever should hurt his value on the market
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 4, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again the big question WHO WOULD REPLACE HIM ?
Draft picks are nice but I can’t keep stressing enough we don’t want another opportunity for Lou to play screw that lefty. As for the picks good chance you will only get sandwich round picks if whoever signs Grabow either signs ANOTHER type A FA ( then it depends who and when) or is in the bottom of the pack record wise. Basically do you want to keep a known reliable player for a reasonable price or do you want to gamble you can replace him ?
FYI the scariest thing about this debate is that Blou and I AGREE so I would check to see if the earth is spinning
properly on it’s axis these days.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 4, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Gaub appears to have a decent shot at LOOGY status.
But, you’re right, he’d have to make 20 straight scoreless appearences to get on Lou’s good side.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gaub has had some very uneven stats
and spent what 60 days in AAA ball. I think the guy could be awesome but no way you go into next season counting on him to be your relieable LOOGY especially given Lou’s lack of patience with young players.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 4, 2009 7:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, which is why I said two-year deal.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 4, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
i’d prefer to let someone else sign him and get the compensation
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 4, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah...
he’ll be another Cub in a long line of overpaid, overrated players. I guess Hendry hasn’t learned anything at all.
People who don’t care don’t respond, and people who do care do respond. Does that make sense Bronco fans trying to validate the trade?
by propheteer on Nov 7, 2009 1:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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