Who would have guessed that last night's Cubs game would end before the Blackhawks game? (That one didn't turn out so well, either.)
In last night's game preview, I said I figured it might be among the fastest games of the year because both pitchers, Ted Lilly and Joel Piñeiro, threw strikes (only 16 combined walks for the two of them in 89 innings). Lilly walked three, but it was still a good enough outing for him to win most of the time (seven innings, three earned runs). At two hours and five minutes, it was the fastest game of the year by a wide margin.
Unfortunately for the Cubs, Piñeiro chose last night to make his best start in several seasons (it was his first CG shutout since May 30, 2003), and the Cardinals shut out the Cubs 3-0, the first CG shutout vs. the Cubs since Randy Wolf, then with Houston, shut them out 4-0 last September 3.
The tone for the game was set in the first inning when Alfonso Soriano, who had led off with a single, was picked off. This is never a good thing, obviously, and who knows? Maybe the Cubs would have manufactured a run or two and got Piñeiro out of there early. Instead, the next two hitters in the first grounded out, two of the seventeen groundouts Piñeiro had. He entered the ninth inning having thrown a Maddux-like 78 pitches and threw only 92 for the game, 64 for strikes. True to his early-season form, he didn't walk anyone, and gave up only two other hits, a Derrek Lee single in the 2nd and a Mike Fontenot double in the 5th.
The Cardinals manufactured a run in the last of that inning on a single, a sacrifice and another single, and though none of us knew it at the time, we all might as well have switched over to the Blackhawks game right there. Colby Rasmus put the game completely out of reach with a two-run homer off Lilly in the fifth, the only real mistake Ted made.
That's enough about this game -- all you can say after a game like that is, "We'll get 'em tomorrow." So I wanted to use the rest of this post for a couple of other issues: first, to discuss a link that BCB reader northofwrigley posted in the preview thread regarding blackouts:
Doing away with blackout restrictions is essential in order for MLBAM to take their business to the next level of growth. Right now, MLB.TV is missing a huge percentage of the market who would not get MLB.TV simply because they don't travel and don't need to follow their team outside of their viewing area. The moment MLBAM can open the service up to anyone who wants to follow their team outside of the TV set, the size of the market that MLB.TV can go after increases dramatically.
To which I say, "Duh!" The technology exists to do this (and has, in fact, existed for many years); what, exactly, they are waiting for is beyond me. Although, maybe those of you in blackout areas would rather NOT have seen last night's game.
Finally, can you imagine the angst if, as Chris DeLuca suggests in today's Sun-Times, Mark DeRosa wound up as a Milwaukee Brewer? Personally, if the Tribe wants to trade DeRo -- get him back, not for sentimental reasons, but because the Cubs could use a player exactly like him. He may be off to a mediocre start in Cleveland, but he is a lifetime .307/.396/.468 hitter in Wrigley Field (in over 600 PA) as opposed to .213/.292/.375 (89 PA) in the Jake. (He's right in the middle of those two -- .262/.313/.410 -- in 67 career PA at Miller Park.) Seriously, Jim Hendry -- bring him back, rather than see him go to your biggest division rival.
0 recs | 334 comments
I usually try to stay positive but last nights game was
AWFUL. Lifeless effort in my opinion. The Brewers went in to Busch and made the Cards look so bad. LaRussa used ALL of his bullpen the night before. So either the Brewers are playing that well or the the Cubs played that bad last night. I am the first one to tip my cap to a pitcher for a job well done but I think that had less to do with Pinero being that good and more to do with the Cubs lack of patience and effort… The Cubs come in after a DAY OFF and looked like they couldn’t wait to get out of there. Game was very frustrating to watch.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
It seemed like every at bat lasted 2 pitches. Ugh.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
I got more and more angry as I watched.
Didn’t seem like the Cubs we’ve known the last 2 years.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Piniero was flat out PITCHING last night...
… and i’m not trying to absolve the bats of their ineffectiveness, but i think “lifeless effort” might be a little extreme.
A pitcher having a great game can make a team look like that.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
How about uninspiring effort?
Lots of first pitch swings/outs… He didn’t have to work. 4 pitch, 7 pitch, 10 pitch innings aren’t gonna get it done. Like I said above, I am the first to tip the cap to a well pitched game but I think the Cubs lack of patience was more of the key to his “flat out pitching” last night.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Fair enough...
… uninspired seems a bit more diplomatic.
Again, i’m not trying to absolve the offense for its failure last night. I just firmly believe that a pitcher that is in the zone can effortlessly tear through a game and make the opponent look foolish.
Given the offensive successes of late, I’m inclined to believe last night may have been as much about Piniero doing well as the Cubs playing poorly.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
the guy was in teh kind of zone he hasn't been in for five years
that’s enough to convince me that the batters’ approach had quite a bit to do with it
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
You are fairly easily convinced of our teams failures...
… you don’t believe a pitcher can simply have a good day?
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
I'm saying the fact that he hasn't had that kind of a day since 2003
makes it unlikely that there weren’t other factors, than just “good pitching”
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
That can really be kind of deceiving. If a pitcher is around the plate a lot,
hitters will go after the first good pitch they see. If a pitcher is constantly getting the first pitch over for a strike, you are putting yourself in a hole by letting that pitch go by, especially if it’s a first-pitch fastball. There is no gauantee that letting the first two pitches go by is going to increase your chances on the third pitch. If a good pitcher gets you down 0-2 on the first two pitches, you’re going to have to his pitch. If a guy is on like Pinero was last night, you have no chance if you have to hit his pitch.
willie mays hayes' gloves - May 20, 2009
I disagree...
read my posts throughout the thread and you’ll see my reasons. The swinging at the first pitch started in the first inning and never subsided. They didn’t work the counts at all to know if he had great stuff.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
This seems like a chicken-and-egg kinda thing.
Pineiro threw 92 pitches, 64 for strikes. I’m pretty sure he had great stuff last night.
daver - May 20, 2009
Since they swung at the first strike they saw,
the Cubs never gave him a chance to make a mistake. That’s why pitches per at bat is so important. The more pitches a pitcher throws, the greater chance he will make a mistake. Just because the pitcher throws a strike doesn’t mean the batter should swing at it, particularly early in the count if it’s a pitcher’s strike.
The bottom line is the Cubs never game themselves a chance last night. At this point of the season I am disappointed with the regression the offense has shown this year. Maybe things will turn around but I am pretty concerned at this point.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
That's true.
It’s just, with sinker ballers, so many of their pitches look hittable – I can imagine it becomes almost impossible to discern good pitches from ones that are going to dive toward the plate at the last minute. I just have a feeling that, if Cubs hitters had taken a few pitches, they would’ve wound up 0-2 or 1-2 most of the time anyway. Then they would’ve had to swing to protect the plate and…well, we know the rest.
daver - May 20, 2009
I agree.
They may very well have lost the game and also been shut-out with a different approach.
Since they chose to swing at everything, we’ll never know and that was what made watching the game so frustrating.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
That was my point. It's easy to sit back and say "Don't swing at the first pitch." Some
times the first pitch is the best one you will get in the at-bat. If the pitcher is trhowing a lot of first-pitch strikes, waiting will just get you into a pitcher-friendly count. Your point about a good sinker-baller is true. It’s hard to lay off those pitches because they look like fast balls down the middle of the plate. The formula for beating a sinker-baller is to make him bring the pitches up into the hitting zone. That requires waiting and hoping his sinker is dropping out of the zone. If he has good command, he still will beat you because as you start to take those pitches at the knees, most pitchers will start to throw more fastballs and it becomes a guessing game. It both cases, the pitchers has the advantage. He was on last night and he beat us.
willie mays hayes' gloves - May 20, 2009
+1
It’s easy to look flat when you don’t hit . . . but had the Cubs scored 6 runs, we would be saying how they were aggressive in going after Pineiro
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Exactamundo.
Brandon Webb does this for a living. Pineiro – not so much; he just had a damn good game last night.
daver - May 20, 2009
But if they had looked at more pitches(prob strikes)
maybe they would have been able to get into the over taxed Cards bullpen.
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
Which was my point to beign with!
Thanks Kali.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
No problem Fish
They’ve been good this year with Pitches/AB. Last night was prob an aberration.
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
It's possible
But after a while, you realize that you are just starting out 0-1, 0-2, etc.
I do see your point in trying, but I see WMHG point, too.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
There was rarely a 0-1, 0-2 count.
There was a ton of first pitch strikes because they put the ball in play… Whether it’s really a strike or not is a different story. They swung at a lot of first pitches. Which made his 1st pitch strike total very high. Yes, I know he was around the plate and yes, I know he was locked in but not working the pitcher and not working the count plays into the pitchers hand more than being behind in the count. At least then you have seen a lot of pitches and give him more of a chance to make a mistake. When you have low pitch count innings there’s less of a chance for a ball to be left up. Believe me I see and understand his point too. In my opinion, I don’t think you win very many games with that approach.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Certainly didn't win one yesterday with it . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Baseball is a crazy game...
For how bad the Cards looked against the Brewers you would have thought the Cubs could have really done some damage against a team who was a little down. I guess though, it’s not like the Cards bats came alive. They have 5 hits? Hopefully they can come through tonight and even this thing up.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
It would be
especially nice to hit Carpenter too!
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
Maybe.
Or maybe they would have only gone 0-2 or 1-2, had to protect to the plate and then met the same result. So Pineiro throws 105 to 110 pitches instead of 92.
daver - May 20, 2009
Don't you think
that most pitchers at 110 pitches or so are more hittable than ones at 80? I’m not saying it would have made the difference yesterday, but I think it was a bad approach and not something we do regularly anyway.
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
Yeah, they probably are.
As you say, let’s just hope last night’s impatience was an anomaly brought on by the greater anomaly of Joel Pineiro turning into Greg Maddux.
daver - May 20, 2009
if you swing at a pitch, it's a strike whether or not it really was.
When they are constantly swinging at the first and second pitch, that’s going to poison the sample size.
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
good point .
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
Thank you...
… willie mays hayes’ gloves, for saying much more eloquently, what i had been trying to say all morning.
I didn’t see team a wide lifeless effort as much as i saw a pitcher in the zone. Going 0 and 1 looking vs 0 and 1 swinging is only an advantage if you believe there was a chance of the pitcher throwing a ball. Piniero puts balls across the plate, to the point that Al was predicting a short game. That all came to fruition.
The cubs have been hitting well… until i see regular evidence of “lifeless effort” i’m going to continue to believe we were made to look foolish by a pitcher with good stuff.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
change "regular evidence" to "evidence in consecutive games"
… and I agree with you. Pineiro was just terrific last night. It’s only REALLY bad if it starts a trend.
elgato - May 20, 2009
Fair point.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
Just disgusting.
To get CG shutout by this guy. Ugh.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
It's these games that make baseball...
a maddening adventure. Any team can beat another team on any given day/night.
So they lost to a AA pitcher. Re-group and get a win today.
I didn’t see the game as I was watching the Blackhawks go down 2-0 in their conf finals series.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
Exactly.
Piniero is a little better than a “AA pitcher” — in April, he held a pretty good Mets lineup to six hits and two runs.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
It was the lack of patience at the plate to me...
and somewhat effort that really frustrated me. That’s not how this team plays. I think Pinero’s high pitch inning was around 15. Soriano getting picked off and then really not hustling for a foul ball where he looked to call off Fontenot, then let it drop in front of him… They just seemed disinterested to me against a team who was really reeling.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
I think Pineiro just had them off balance...
… the sinker worked, making hitters think it was hittable, only to see them hit the ball into the ground (thus, the 17 groundouts).
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
A leadoff basehit then a pickoff, in my opinion,
set the tone to a very poorly approached game.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Agreed.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
He looked safe, though
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
I thought so too.
Pretty close though. Wasn’t blatantly obvious. I could see how the ump could have missed that though. With Molina as catcher they should know not to stray away to far and if you do be on your toes cause he is going to throw. Soriano shouldn’t have been in the situation to make it as close as it was.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
He was safe.
As BB stated at the time, he hoped that call would not come back to haunt the Cubs. Since they didn’t score, one has to think that had an impact.
tville - May 20, 2009
No real way to tell
It certainly didn’t help.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
No, he was out.
Not sure what angle WGN had, but the angle on the Cardinals’ broadcast made it very clear. Pujols got him just before Soriano’s fingers touched the bag. He was out.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
The angle WGN had
showed that Soriano was safe, Pujols tagged him on his right shoulder after Sori’s hand was already on the base.
gwood - May 20, 2009
Correct..........
………..based on the WGN perspective.
tville - May 20, 2009
PICKOFF....OH NO....
Well that is what we thought also…Gotta quit making these mistakes…
cubs north - May 20, 2009
Soriano
getting picked off sucked. However, everyone hustled to get that ball; no one was close enough, that’s all.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
+1
I stopped watching after I think it was the top of the 5th when it took only 5 pitches to retire the Cubbies. Five pitches!!! I knew not to waste my time watching if the team was going to phone it in last night.
wombat - May 20, 2009
OK, maybe not AA
I was amazed he faced one over the minimum and had that Maddux/Leiber type of pitch count.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
I was telling someone yesterday
that the renewed rivalry between the Red Wings and Blackhawks is reminiscent of the Bulls-Pistons rivalry of the late 80s early 90s, where it took the Bulls a few times to beat the Pistons, but once they did there was no looking back.
The composure that the Red Wings have displayed in the first two games of this series is pretty impressive. Let’s hope that the Chicago crowd can get them out of their rhythm a little. Despite the outcome, the first two games have been a lot of fun to watch.
gwood - May 20, 2009
The Blackhawks played well yesterday.
The Wings are a very, very good team. It will take almost perfect play to defeat them.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
Agreed
The Red Wings are very good. They seem to do virtually everything right and are always under control. I suppose that is a sign of a very talented and well coached team, which they are.
The Hawks have been very impressive this entire post-season. Their resilience is incredible. They are going to be a good team for many years to come. The experience they are gaining this year is invaluable.
gwood - May 20, 2009
The Hawks have played very well at home.
I would not be at all surprised to see them win the next two games.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
While not rooting for the blackhawks in this series and don't
usually pay any attention to local hockey, Toews is a horse. The press last year was always about Toews and Kane as a combined talent. The performance last night by Toews has be thinking Kane may be really good, but Toews is becoming great.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Toews knows how to back check and has some
more size to accomplish that. Kane doesn’t always want to admit there is ice to cover inside his blue line. Coach Q was assure he knows this better come next season’s training camp.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
That is the main thing I have noticed so far in this series
The Red Wings are playing under complete control and the Hawks have looked frantic and sloppy.
lemon20pie - May 20, 2009
Veteran teams that follow "the system",
very few of them exist BTW, will usually come out on top.
The ’Hawks are extremely good for such a young team. Now if Dale can work some cap-magic over the next two off-seasons, they will be a great team for years to come.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
Joel Piniero, latest star pupil of the Dave Duncan School of Pitcher Transformation
BLou - May 20, 2009
I didn't see the game...transfixed instead on the Blackhawks
BLou - May 20, 2009
Thank God I got home late last night.
I didn’t have to witness what, based on the numbers, must have been the Cubs’ worst offensive performance so far this year. The credit goes to Piñeiro, no doubt, but it seems to me that the Cubs’ hitters weren’t patient at all.
On yur other topic, Al, if De Rosa ends up in Milwaukee, it will suit the Cubs fine, as payback for Jim Hendry’s awful move trading De Rosa to Cleveland. Oh, the irony!
Fraggin Judge - May 20, 2009
Irony is right.
Again, I repeat: the Cubs could use DeRo right now. Why not try to get him back before the Brewers can?
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
Because
Hendry would be admitting would a baffoon GM he is.
lemon20pie - May 20, 2009
Not necessarily.
Remember, there have been injuries. DeRosa’s presence would fill at least one hole created by an injury.
If a player LIKE DeRosa was on another team and had NOT previously been a Cub and traded away, we’d probably be begging Hendry to go get him. Just because he was sent away earlier, for reasons we have discussed, doesn’t mean he couldn’t be brought back without admitting a “mistake”.
At this point, his contract is affordable, too.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
further
mistake does not equal buffoon (or a baffoon, either). I think the buffoon would be the one who would refuse to correct the situation because he didn’t want to admit the mistake
TC Cubby - May 20, 2009
Exactly.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I agree
I would love to have Dero back…he would fill a big need for the Cubs right now and never wanted him to leave in first place.
lemon20pie - May 20, 2009
AGREE ....
GM is not going to admit he made this blunder….Yes they should try to get DERO but will they ??
cubs north - May 20, 2009
I'll bet he makes the call.
Hell, both acquired pitchers and Miles so they have an infielder.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
No but he will get traded
Unless the Indians improve a lot in the next 4-6 weeks.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
More than likely
but after a terrible start last year, Cleveland was one of the best second-half teams in baseball in 2008.
I don’t know if Shapiro will hold on, hoping that the teams turns it around in a mediocre (record-wise) division.
Bill Potter - May 20, 2009
And who are you giving up to get him?
kanderber - May 20, 2009
Miles and Freel.
After all, we only got three minor league pitchers for the guy. They can have two experienced veterans right back.
That would put DeRosa at third till Rami came back, with Fonty and Scales platooning at second. When Rami came back, DeRosa would go to second, Fonty and Scales back to the bench.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Why would the Indians do that?
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Well, at the least
it would give them players to take the position.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Yeah, but it doesn't make much sense from a rebuilding standpoint
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
They wouldn't.
That’s a terrible trade suggestion and there’s no reason the Indians would even consider it.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
Yes, but what if...
I told you that Ryan Freel is scrappy?
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
Then the Cubs could NEVER deal him...
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Give me Ty Wigginton instead
SackMan - May 20, 2009
Last I checked, he was barely hitting over .200
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
Give them back the pitchers they gave us.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
When's the last time, if ever, you saw a trade like that?
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Never.
But why can’t there be a first time?
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I am ok with not bringing him back as long as he doesn't go to the Brewers
If the choice is between him being a Brewer and trading to get him back. I say try to get him back.
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
At all costs!
(Just kidding – sorta.)
daver - May 20, 2009
There could be. It's not likely.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Trade
June 27, 1993: Traded by the Florida Marlins to the Seattle Mariners for Henry Cotto and Jeff Darwin.
November 9, 1993: Traded by the Seattle Mariners to the Florida Marlins for Jeff Darwin and cash.
Not the same since this wasn’t a GM admitting a mistake… but it’s one I always remember.
jameslcrockett - May 20, 2009
Who was this?
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
Dave Magadan
CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) - May 21, 2009
Not so fast
Those guys are all doing very well in their various levels of AAA ball. This may turn out to be a good deal after all
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
I agree.
It will take a few years, but I suspect the Cubs will end up with the better end of the deal.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
Great idea
It takes a bigger man (GM) to admit he made a mistake. I’ve always thought Jimbo had a humble side to him. One example would be to get DeRo back, or for the love of God and all things Cubbie, re-stabilize the line-up flexibility with someone else!
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
Is there a pattern?
Cubs seem to be at their worst when they are impatient (obvious, I know). Is there any pattern to the types of pitchers that the Cubs are impatient against? Here, it was a sinkerballer. It also seems that they are impatient against rookie or new pitchers (when they should be even more patient). Any other patterns out there?
TC Cubby - May 20, 2009
actually thought they lost more often when they were impatient at the plate but...
The league avg for Pitches per at bat is 3.84. And the Cubs record when they are below the avg is 5-4. And out of those 9 games, there were only 5 close games and of those they are 2-3.
They have been a very patient team for the season and particularly in May. Outside of last night’s game.
I’ll try to break down the type of pitcher later.
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
interesting
thanks
TC Cubby - May 20, 2009
Doubt DeRosa is going anywhere
Cleveland manager Eric Wedge is on the cusp of being fired. I’m sure the massively overrated sabermagician Mark Shapiro will give the new manager time to resurrect things with the Indians before he puts out the “for sale” sign.
BLou - May 20, 2009
Good point,
probably depends which way Shapiro is leaning at any given moment on Wedge. If leaning toward firing, Shapiro probably would wait unless a trade fills what he views as a glaring need.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Never know
Their attendance is in the tank, big time. They are one of the teams that could pull the payroll plug ASAP.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
The only time I saw a team with as bad a record at the Indians
come back was the Astros and they were able to do so because they always had good starting pitching, they somehow starting scratching across one more run than the other team.
The Indians pitching is so incredibly bad and can’t be salvaged. They simply don’t have enough pitching to win.
The Indians have financial reasons that may dictate them to start selling off salary sooner rather than later.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
They lost to the Cardinals
I mean, really. They lost to the frickin Cardinals.
PokyCubs - May 20, 2009
Just have to tip your hat and move on
Piniero pitched very well last night and not too many teams could’ve beaten him. His location of his slider was consistent and he made very few mistakes.
Hopefully they are a little more patient with Carpenter on the mound tonight. I imagine he will be on somewhat of a pitch count. Get him out of the game, make him throw strikes and get to that bullpen.
lemon20pie - May 20, 2009
They really didn't make Pinero work though...
I think their impatient approach went a long way to his success. I am trying to find pitch counts per inning. I know he had a 5 pitch inning and a 7 pitch inning back to back. I think it was the 4th and 5th…
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
EDIT: Sinker
I agree they could’ve made him work a little more no doubt but when a pitcher is locating his fastball and in Piniero’s case his sinker, as a hitter you’re going to be off balance and just hope Piniero makes a mistake, which he didn’t.
They have to be more patient with Carp tonight though and make him throw a couple 20 pitch innings just because he’ll be on a pitch count.
lemon20pie - May 20, 2009
The night before LaRussa used up his bullpen in a 8-4 loss.
You would have thought they would have had the same suggested approach last night. 4 pitch innings are unacceptable. Lots of first pitch outs last night.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
That is what I found so frustrating
is that @ 7 2/3 inning point he had thrown I believe 72 pitches. Thats just crazy! Especially since the Cards had to use their bullpen the night before and had given up 11 BB’s. (not sure how many of them were given by the starter tho)
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
I share your frustration.
The night before. Lohse had 3 walks. The pen had 8.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
btw I love that quote.
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
Thanks...
Soto’s quote kind of echos it in a way.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
but lets hope it's many seasons he had the privilege of playing for them :)
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
I second that!
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
I had to laugh at
Bob Brenly, at one point he said (in reference to the impatient approach at the plate by everyone on the team) “the Cubs’s team bus must be double parked outside of the stadium” LOL one up to a night full of downs. Let’s put it behind us and go get ‘em in the last 2 games of the series. Oh yeah Al, I’m cool with bringing DeRo back too! :-)
Fonzie2178 - May 20, 2009
The Cubs' gave this shutout away.
Many times during this game a guy would fly out or ground out on the first or second pitch of the inning. The next Cubs player would come up, hacking at the first damn pitch, and end up getting out on short work. The third batter—who’s JOB IS NOW IS TO MAKE THE PITCHER WORK—would guess hack at the next ball thrown to him. This is little league, high school stuff. You don’t let a pitcher throw 6 or 10 pitches an inning…for the ENTIRE GAME! I was so very frustrated last night watching our team (that led NL in BB last year) apparently forget how to walk or make a pitcher work his ass off. Maddening.
dtpollitt - May 20, 2009
Amen...
I’m glad someone else has the same view on this as I do.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Cubs tip hat to Joel Pinero
Words that I never thought would be written
gocubsgo22 - May 20, 2009
Did the Cubs have a stretch where 5 players were retired on 6 pitches?
That was my count, but I may have been seeing double.
gocubsgo22 - May 20, 2009
There was one four-pitch inning.
So it’s possible.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I think the first two guys up the next inning made outs on first pitch
gocubsgo22 - May 20, 2009
7 pitches
5 outs (3 in 4th and first 2 in 5th) on 7 pitches.
amazing.
Spydey - May 20, 2009
Remind me not to compliment opposing pitcher
In the pre-thread I posted how good Piniero was. that he was an extreme ground ball pitcher and the Cubs hitters needed to be patient. From now on even if they face Greinke I will say bad things about the opposing pitcher.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
good think
Maddux is retired. :D
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
LOL
The worst I will ever say about Maddux is that he could have dressed a wee bit better.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
Speaking of Maddux
Since you are the expert, do you think he’ll ever want to be a pitching coach?
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
Not unless he can do it from the golf course
gocubsgo22 - May 20, 2009
Thats what I thought
but I figured if anyone would know if there is a chance it’d be her.
Madison Cub Fan - May 20, 2009
No he says he wants to be a BENCH coach
and I believe him though I hope he changes his mind and will consider managing. Maddux has always seen the ENTIRE game on
a different level. His amazing mind applied to overall in game strategy would be incredible. I think he will take a few years doing just a little high end "special advisor " stuff, mostly for pitching. When the kids get to college I think he may come back. In fact I think the best thing would be the brothers Maddux as the Coen brothers of baseball. They would sort of be pitching coach, bench coach and manager but together. So far Mike is doing a wonderful job as pitching coach in Texas. As of now Madog is a special advisor to the Padres but with Black and pitching coach Balsey likely to get the ax he may not feel so connected to them next year. Alas I fear his dislike of cold weather will be the Braves and Dodgers will always have the advantage in getting his services.
I ran across a nice Maddux related article yesterday that I had not seen before. It is by Thomas Boswell who is one of the great
sports writers and did the best piece ever on Maddux ( which alas as in Playboy and has never been reprinted in one of his collections) Anyway a nice piece about great pitchers who as Sandberg would say " Did it the natural way"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/09/AR2008050902742.html
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
I could be wrong
Maddux doesn’t strike me as the type who wants the notoriety and pressure of being the manager. As the bench coach, he could do everything he wants to do as far as input into managing the team without having to answer to the media everyday.
You are right about Mike, though, he is doing an incredible job in Texas.
gwood - May 20, 2009
I hear that a lot (pressure , notoriety)
but I don’t buy it. Maddux certainly has no trouble dealing with pressure and he is in fact a master at dealing with the press.
He always knew that dealing with the media and the public was part of the job. He was always polite and nearly always boring. He had most interviews set up just like batters. There were a few writers he liked and opened up to just a bit but
in fact Maddux LOVES talking about BASEBALL. He can go on endlessly on strategy. He does not care to talk about himself and that really is not a problem if he wants to manage.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
Most people would have said the same abour Ryne and look at him now.
He even gets thrown out of games now!
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
In my time here, i've gathered that you have a great appreciation for Maddux...
… could i bother you to explain the origins?
I appreciate him as well, as much as the next Cubs fan (a lot, obviously), but its always interesting to me how fans become connected to a certain player.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
How much time you got ?
Ok first here is the long version ( my profile of Maddux for BCB) http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2007/2/1/92435/72323
Now how was I lucky enough to become “connected” ( well obsessed really) to Maddux ? Hard to say really. Like a lot of Cub fans I developed a fondness for fearless , skinny kid pitcher who was probably a better pinch runner and hitter than he was a batter his first two seasons with the Cubs. Ironically I was living in NYC when the whole debacle of the Cubs letting Maddux go happened in 02. I was angry but I figured it was just like Buckner, Rick Monday and other Cubs I loved being dumped but unlike anyone before I just kept watching him. I could see a number of games on TBS. Somehow you could get that not only was he a great pitcher, he was a special person. All I can say is I made a better choice in having Maddux as my all time favorite baseball player than any other decision I can think of in my life.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
Very cool...
… thank you!
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
Um I meant 92 of course
Wishful thinking on my part.
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
Seems perfect to me
Maddux as bench coach for Sandberg.
From what I understand Ryno gets tossed a decent amount, so it’ll almost be like having Mad Dog manage, just without the post-game interviews.
WittyUserName - May 20, 2009
I would be VERY afraid in that club house
Both of those two have SERIOUS reputations for disgusting pranks. Maddux would piss on you in the shower and Sandberg
would blow up the toilet you are sitting on ( both have in fact done those things).
Doggie Stalker - May 20, 2009
Don't compliment Carpenter, please
I reminded you only because you mentioned it and my ADHD didn’t kick in so quickly I forgot to type this.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
I wonder if
we lead the league in getting picked off. Seems to happen a lot.
thermal54 - May 20, 2009
DeRo & Wood
Wow. When the Cubs traded DeRo and lost Woody to Free Agency, I was totally bummed. I thought our loss was truely Cleveland’s gain. Well, DeRo is having a horrible start to 2009 (maybe 2008 really was his career year) and Wood gave up 2 HR’s and a triple last night in blowing a 3-run lead against KC. His era is 8+. Small sample size? Sure. Are we almost 1/4 through the season? Yes.
All I’m saying is that I don’t miss them as much as I did before the season started.
Canadian Cubs Fan - May 20, 2009
Wood's outing was very similar to Gregg's the other day...
carmen_fanzone - May 20, 2009
I was thinking about that as I listened to Tom Hamilton describe the carnage.
What’s funny is there were fans at the Cub game that were chanting “Woody” when Gregg blew up.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
DeRosa has 6 HRs and 25 RBIs. If he was a Cub he would be in 2nd place in HRs and tied for 1st with RBIs. Looks like he is having a decent year to me.
Charlemagne - May 20, 2009
True
However, take away his 4 for 7 with 6 RBI’s and a HR in the Indians 22-6 win over the Yankees, and his number are a little more pedestrian.
DeRo is hitting .242 with a .312 OBP and a .412 SLG…not exactly lighting the world on fire.
Canadian Cubs Fan - May 20, 2009
Why would you take that away?
daver - May 20, 2009
if you take away the good...
take away his worst game too.
HIGGY - May 20, 2009
It's called an outlier...
… and it is, at times, justified to discount a result that clearly does not lie within the normal and / or expected results.
Or at the very least be very cautious in using results that clearly fall outside the normal distribution.
AndrewJStone - May 20, 2009
My uneducated opinion on that point is
that you can’t take it out of the equation. Those types of days, because you play do many games and each game is a microcosm within itself, happen maybe, what. 4 or 5 times a season? That’s how your personal numbers get piled up. I have a feeling for every 3 games that a hitter goes 0-4 or 0-5, there’s a 4-4 or 5-5 day. If someone plays all 162 games, there will be stretches where a hitter goes a week and a half without a hit. Then one game he goes 5-5 and the next 4-6. So, he goes 10 games without a hit and then 2 with 9 hits. Over that period he got 9 hits in 12 games. Doesn’t sound as bad when you average it out.
Like hitting home runs. D Lee this year went basically oh-for-April and this month has 5(?) already. So, do you throw out April or May? That’s why they are averages.
BigJohnAZ - May 20, 2009
That's actually an interesting point I think...
Though maybe only to me. And it’s one that I don’t really know the answer to: How does one decide where the cut-off point for a usable, meaningful sample size is? There is, I would think, a somewhat arbitrary nature to it.
At least as far as I know, there are no hard and fast rules on what a “proper” distribution of statistics is over the course of a year. Some players are feast/famine types of players, others have an even distribution. Which I would think means that the only size that is actually meaningful is after the final game of the year
As a corrollary, I’ve often wondered if there should be a meaningful statistical distinction between players whose production comes at “meaningful points” in games and theoretically, say a guy who only produces in blowout games where his team has no chance of winning. (when the Giants had Pedro Feliz, he struck me as that latter kind of player). Though I fear this sounds too close to the idea of “clutch,” which I don’t believe in and we’ve previously talked to death. What I’m referring to is not something the player controls…it’s just something that happens.
Maybe one of the other saber guys around has an answer for me…
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
No way of knowing where DeRo would rank in terms of RBI on Cubs as it's team and situation dependent.
You can’t put much stock in a guy’s RBI numbers and assume he would have the same amount with a different team, it doesn’t translate. His .242/.312/.412 line is more indicative of his performance this year not to mention that his defensive numbers are bad as well. Whatever this team is lacking wouldn’t be much improved by DeRosa contrary to the belief of the DeRomantics.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
However...
… do you not think that DeRosa would hit better if he had Wrigley Field as his home park? He has hit exceptionally well there in his career.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
+1
Plus, I would think that with a better hitter’s lineup (the Cubs) he would perform better, or for that matter, a better team all around. A different mindset and confidence, or something like that.
BigJohnAZ - May 20, 2009
Cleveland's lineup is actually better than the Cubs right now.
The Indians are 2nd in OBP in the AL and third in hits so that’s why he has inflated RBI. He’s been pretty awful.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
His number so far are below is career norms thus I don't think Wrigley will suddenly make him better.
His numbers would probably increase some but his numbers likely will get closer to his career norms no matter where he is at. I don’t think Wrigley alone is going to bring back the Mark DeRosa we saw last season.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
I wonder if...
there is any chance to DeRo back. He would give us the depth we need and I would HATE to see him goto the Brewers. I also wouldn’t mind getting Wood back either since our bull pen is the weak-link in our ball club.
Charlemagne - May 20, 2009
While I would love to see both
back for the rest of the season, the contract Wood signed made him undesirable within the Cub’s budget. Unless Cleveland was going to take a huge contract back, I don’t think it will work.
DeRo is in the last year of a reasonable contract, so the dollars could work, if needed.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Let DeRosa Go! Please!
He is not coming Back this year.
cubdreamer - May 20, 2009
No, he's not
And it’s interesting that you posted the comment, given your user name.
As a fanbase, we tend to be sentimental and want to hang on to “our guys”…but a return trade wouldn’t make a lot of sense. What do the Cubs have to offer? If the Indians trade DeRosa, that means they are giving up on 2009. So they’d want prospects. Who do you trade for 1/2 season of Mark DeRosa?
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Give them back the pitchers they gave us.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
See above . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
See above.
But repeating, why can’t there be a first time?
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I think Hendry would look foolish
Granted, it doesn’t matter what I think, but . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
I don't think he would look that foolish
The Ramirez injury changes things. But I wonder whether the Cubs could afford to pay the rest of DeRo’s contract. My guess is price, not looking bad, would stop this deal from happening.
elgato - May 20, 2009
It would also be foolish because 2/3 of a season of DeRo is not worth 3 pitching prospects.
Cleveland would take that deal in a heart beat. I’m pretty sure all of those pitchers have looked fairly good in our minors thus far. Hendry would look like a total fool if he gave them back those 3 pitchers because they are worth way more than the “great” Mark DeRosa.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
Unless that single move helps the Cubs win this year.
I’m not a “DeRomantic” — I wouldn’t have suggested this if Aramis Ramirez hadn’t gotten hurt. I think it could be a useful move to shore up an admittedly weak bench.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I don't think he'd be a bad addition
But at what cost?
I think those 3 pitchers might be too much
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
It would be far too much.
If Cleveland were willing to take little to nothing in return, which I doubt, then fine. It would make little to no sense to give up quality pitching for a half season of DeRosa in what appears to be a down year for him.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
The thing is the biggest weakness the Cubs have is their bullpen.
It’s been well documented that the Cubs have limit trade chips. Why use any to trade for DeRosa?
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
+1
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
At what cost?
DeRosa is having a down year apparently so I don’t think the Cubs should give up much value for him. I wouldn’t be against picking him up if you had to give up say a Jake Fox and/or a David Patton. I just wouldn’t give up anything of value.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
Who knows once the agreement in principle is
translated on paper for Mr. Ricketts and the banks (expected in the next couple days), he may come right out to the Cubs brass to go “do something”. That something may be to cover their asses with the 3rd base issue and lack of line-up flexibility.
blackhawk24 - May 20, 2009
Sure, if
Hendry sells his soul to the devil.
JFCubFan - May 20, 2009
The Cub players obviously didn't listen to Lou's pregame show with Santo.
Lou was talking about how important it was for a hitter to work the count. To be comfortable hitting with two strikes. To see alot of pitches. The more pitches you make the pitcher throw, the more likely he is to make a mistake. They went out and did the opposite. It looked like they wanted to catch the Hawk game.
Rick B - May 20, 2009
I agree with Al and a few others.
Pineiro pitched one of the best games of his career. Period. You can’t make a pitcher work when he’s throwing that many strikes. It really was like watching vintage Greg Maddux: When you don’t swing, it’s a strike; and when you do, the ball ends up on the ground.
We saw Jason Marquis pitch games like this. For some reason, I seem to recall a Sergio Mitre start like this in ’06. (I think it was ’06.) I kinda shrugged this one off. Just as any major league team can beat any other team on any given day, with some luck and sound execution, almost any major league pitcher can shut a team down on any given day. (I said “almost any”!)
One big positive was yet another strong start from Ted Lillly and, hey, Fontenot got a nice oppo double.
Let’s just hope the Cubs can give Chris Carpenter a rude welcome back to action tonight. I certainly don’t relish the thought of losing three straight or dropping a series to the Cards.
daver - May 20, 2009
Mitre's start was in '05.
A 5-hit shutout of the Marlins on June 14, 2005. In his previous start he had shut out the Blue Jays for seven innings.
They should have traded him right then. His trade value was never higher.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
That's the one!
I remember being sick at the time – lying in bed, listening to the game on the radio and wondering whether I was hallucinating. I think that game came to mind because someone suggested that he and Maddux switched bodies.
daver - May 20, 2009
Maybe I'm naive
never having played well enough to advance past sloppy freshman ball, but starting pitchers that make the 25 man on a decent team have the ability to have a great day. Great pitchers have zoned in days where no hitters and perfect games are possible and lesser MLB pitchers have the rare no hit shutout.
Rebound the following night. Anyway, tonight’s more important. Former Cy Young winner returning from injury hoping to be a big part of 2009? Make certain his confidence is not rebuilt today.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Yeah, the Cubs need to hammer Carpenter tonight.
And I believe the Brewers’ relatively mediocre Dave Bush has flirted with a no-no on at least three occasions. So there’s always a chance a pitcher will put it all together for one game. As Ron Santo mentioned last night, naturally, Pineiro had to do it against the Cubs.
daver - May 20, 2009
It always appears TLR gets his team
motivated, especially for the Cubs.
I know a guy who pitched as high as AAA and he always said he could have dominated any team in the majors on those few days a season he was really on. It was always what they would have done to him on the other starts that scared everyone and he could never advance to make those great days the norm.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Shanghai, too bad your owner isn't sentimental.......Jim Thome,,,,Manny Ramirez
Rick B - May 20, 2009
Not sure what you mean with that
When were the Cubs ever in the running for Ramirez? And who on this board would have said in 2001/2002 that Choi didn’t deserve a chance? Finally, what does sentimentality have to do with it?
(P.S. — reply is your friend)
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
There were some ...
who felt the Cubs should sign Thome rather than going with Choi in 2003, including at least one columnist from the Sun-Times, IIRC.
elgato - May 20, 2009
Yes, I recall that
But I still am confused by Rick B’s post.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
I think he's referring to...
…the rumor about the Indians re-acquiring Thome and Manny to do some kind of “reunion tour”-type season. But I don’t really get what it has to do with you or the Cubs.
daver - May 20, 2009
Does he think I'm an Indians fan??
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
time to defend your honor!
blood duel! :P
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
I've been called worse . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Besides, we don't want to offend Ballhawk
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Another (halfhearted) backup player idea - Alex Cintron
The Nats have DFA’d Alex Cintron. I was going to post a Fanshot on this until I looked at Cintron’s awful UZR/UZR 150 numbers. In 2,951.2 innings at shortstop, Cintron shows up as -23.6/-10.5. I was surprised at this, as I thought he was generally regarded as a decent defensive shortstop. With those numbers, I’d just as soon see Andres Blanco be brought up.
Nonetheless, IIRC, the Cubs did give him a look during 2008 ST. And he is, er, experienced at the shortstop position. Would signing him to a minor league deal make any sense? There’s still no one really backing up Ryan Theriot.
daver - May 20, 2009
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cintron signed to a minor league deal.
He nearly made the team last year. I imagine Hendry will give him a look.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
I think you are probably correct that Blanco is better alternative than Cintron at this point.
If the Cubs thought he was washed up last year, I can’t believe they think he’s gotten any better. His numbers would seem to back that up as well. If this guy can’t even play for the Nationals then I can’t imagine he’s got anything left in the tank. I don’t see how he would be of any value whatsoever to this team. He’s not even a league average replacement. Do not want.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
If I'm the Indians
And I have the Brewers on line 1 and the Cubs on line 2, the price just went up beyond those three pitchers they sent us.
DeRosa would be nice to have, but he’s not worth emptying the cookie jar for, not even to keep him away from the Brewers.
Ramirez won’t be gone the entire season. Hoff wasn’t despicable in right.
The last thing Hendry wants is to be desperate. If I’m him, I say, “Here’s Jake Fox, a natural DH, and any one of those three pitchers you sent us.”
If it’s not enough, he can throw in a second of those pitchers. If that’s not enough and the Brewers empty their farm for four months of a utility player, then more power to them.
Worf - May 20, 2009
I'd do that.
I hope Hendry will.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
+1
Sometimes we don’t know who won a trade for a number of years, depending on how the young guys pan out. Maybe it was you Al or someone else that posted the #‘s for Stevens and the other two guys – they’re all having great years on their respective teams.
Canadian Cubs Fan - May 20, 2009
I agree with Worf.
The main reason I’d want DeRosa back isn’t for Ramirez in the short to mid term, but to fill the “who else” factor. Odds are good that one of the for fragile corners will miss time later in the season. And Frageeley is italian and DeRosa is Italian, so it’s a match.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
I'd do that too
It would be great to use Fox, a player we cannot take advantage of, to get us a player we could really use right now.
gwood - May 20, 2009
That's reasonable
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
a replacement 2nd baseman won't get a premium prospect
If they were a mind to, and I doubt they are, they could go for someone like Freddy Sanchez as a rental.
ol Pete - May 20, 2009
Why does Aaron Miles continue to get playing time?
Might as well let Scales start until the league figures him out. Freel is better than Miles as well. There’s zero reason Miles should start over either of those guys at this point.
He’s like this year’s Jose Macias.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
Maybe Lou thought he'd have some advantage over his former team.
Not that I disagree with you – maybe the Cubs could’ve manufactured a run if Scales had gotten on base. And I’m still uncertain as to why Lou isn’t giving Freel more starts at 3B and leaving Fontenot at 2B – unless Freel is already in Lou’s doghouse for some reason.
daver - May 20, 2009
Hadn't even thought of the canine motel yet.
Could it be, or is Freel still nursing injury.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Best Year (s) Behind Him
So far in the limited amount of time that Freel has been here, he has seen few at bats. When he was with the Reds, he gave them something — it seemed like it was against the Cubs most of the time.
But the question is — why is he here? Lou really hasn’t used him and when he put him in to pinch hit he seemed clueless at the plate.
Right now Lou is rotating Miles, Fontenot, and Scales. So why Freel? A backup OF sure but not much chance of playing.
Does Fox need to get this BA up to .500 before we bring him up to be a bat off the bench?
Last night the lineup had 5 guys hitting under .220 in the lineup.
Give Fox a chance to at least come off the bench.
ceegeewow - May 20, 2009
In Freel's defense, he really hasn't played much at all this year,
either with the O’s or the Cubs. It’s hard to say what he has left until he gets a chance to play.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
Fox can't play anywhere but first base...
…and he doesn’t even play that position particularly well.
Ryan Freel has over 700 innings of ML experience at third base. That’s where he should be playing while Aramis is out.
daver - May 20, 2009
but Fox could pinch hit..
… which is all Freel seems to be doing at the moment.
That said, I might prefer Lou to give Freel some starts at 3rd to give him a chance to prove himself in a Cub uniform. Fonty sure hasn’t looked comfortable playing there. BUT if Freel’s just gonna be used as a PH, then may as well have Fox doing that job…
CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) - May 21, 2009
WELL THAT COULD BE THE CASE
And the doghouse is farther away from the dugout…..Something is going on…
cubs north - May 20, 2009
I can't imagine that he's there already.
He’s only had one screwup, getting picked off in his first appearance. If Lou didn’t like him for some reason and wasn’t going to play him, surely he would communicate that to Hendry.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
OH CRAP. We lost a game. Whatever...
I’m done being too concerned about it anymore. Go Cubs.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
No way does Hendry admit he was wrong and get DeRo back.
But, if he does make any trades at all, Aaron f*cking Miles better be the 1st guy that is shown the door. Trade those 3 pitchers they gave us plus Miles for DeRo.
ps. Milton Bradley sucks
Itchy - May 20, 2009
Wow
Thanks for that.
gwood - May 20, 2009
Anytime!
Keep drinking the Kool Aid!
Itchy - May 20, 2009
Staying on the topic of DeRosa
MLB Trade Rumors is reporting that the Indians are fielding offers for De-Ro.
According to SI’s Jon Heyman, the Indians are now fielding offers for infielder Mark DeRosa. DeRosa, 34, is hitting .242/.312/.412 on the season in 170 plate appearances as the Tribe’s third baseman. He has about $4.15MM left on his contract.
They want pitchers who can help them now? Kind of ironic that they traded pitching to get DeRosa in the first place.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
Send Guzman, Wells and Cotts.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
whoops...Guzman OR Wells
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
More likely than what I posted below
But that seems like a lot to give up
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Wells and Marshall can't both be in the rotation...
Marshall is at least a known quantity. If we’re so damn sure DeRosa is the key to our success, it’s not a lot to give up. But I don’t think DeRosa is the difference maker anyway.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
I don't think he's the difference maker either...
Other than Soriano, Kosuke and Theriot, no one is hitting consistently.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
Agreed on your rotation comment and the difference maker comment
I still think Marshall’s heading to the ’pen and Cotts is heading out the door, though.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
I think we're gonna need Wells.
Especially by the looks of our pen. Yuck.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
I think Hendry will do something sooner rather than later about the bullpen if it continues to under perform.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
Pitchers who can help them now . . .
Aren’t pitchers that they traded. Maybe offer them Hart, Cotts and J. Fox, then. Although I woudn’t make that trade if I were the Indians . . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
They dealt us Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and John Gaub.
Stevens is pitching pretty well in AAA with a 2.04 ERA. He’s walking too many though.
And, Gaub is looking sharp in AA. Either of those guys could possibly help a team with the worst record in the AL.
And, funny enough: they signed Luis Vizcaino.
BTW: Archer’s got a 1.80 ERA in A ball, with 30 Ks in 25 innings. Very nice.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
It depends what their goal is
To somehow claw back into it? To contend in 2010? Or to build long-term?
Help them now implies 2009, but I’m not sure.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
I just don't understand...we need DeRosa because he's awesome and will help us win...
Cleveland has DeRosa and he hasn’t been awesome or helped them win.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
Oh, I agree
This isn’t the difference and he’s not coming back
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Apparently people are confused by the number 7 on his uniform.
They think he’s Mickey Mantle.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
Again, it's the sentimentality -- DeRo's attitude plays a part
I was sorry to see him traded; I really was. However, it’s time to move on. If the Cubs could get him cheaply, I’d say great — but I don’t think it’s likely.
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Damn DeRomantics.
daver - May 20, 2009
That's what I like about Mark!
He plays a lot like Mick!
Only bats from one side
But it’s with a real big stick!
Yeaaah!
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
Losing Aramis would be nothing to fear
If we had Mark back and playing right here
Hey! Hey! Hey!
daver - May 20, 2009
Cubs fans will give Hendry a pass
if he brings back Mark, we won’t kick him in the…
other knee!
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Seems to me like
“Pitching that can help us now” is the first opening salvo.
That will get dialed down to “Pitching for the future or bats that can help us now”
And then eventually to… “Dear God, we’re 15 games behind the ROYALS and we’re paying this guy $4.1m. Someone take him!”
Worf - May 20, 2009
All I'm saying is... it's quite ironic.
If Stevens or Gaub were still in their system… it’s very likely one, or both of them, would have been called up by now.
Their staff is horrendous. They have the second worst team ERA in baseball… only the Nats are worse.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
Isn't the fact that Cleveland is shopping DeRo kind of proof that it wasn't a good deal for them?
Even though the masses in Wrigleyville are pining for DeRo it would appear that Shapiro got the short end of the stick in this deal.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
In regards to MLB.tv
I have a subscription to this and do travel 100%. There are a lot of times where I am in cities that have WGN available but the hotel won’t offer it. I go to the laptop only to find out the game is balcked out in my area. The only way for me to watch all the games i want to is to go to a place that has EI. While this is very fun, it also becomes a pain. As Al has mentioned, If I am willing to pay for a game, why can’t i just be able to watch it. Very frustrating. The other option is to quit traveling and I would be ok with that too! Go Cubs
1060 W Addison - May 20, 2009
Addendum to my trade idea
The only reason to trade anything valuable for DeRosa is if we stick him at 2B and consider the position solved for a couple of years, which is what we should have done anyway.
But Lou fell in love with Little Lord Fontenot.
Fine, Fontenot isn’t horrid at 3B and can play SS and 2B. Let him be the super-utility man and give DeRosa a position once and for all.
Worf - May 20, 2009
And what happens to Aaron Miles?
daver - May 20, 2009
I couldn't possibly care less about the answer to that question
Worf - May 20, 2009
But your trade scenario isn't really complete...
…until you answer the question. Do you release him?
daver - May 20, 2009
Probably see if you can get anything for him
My guess is he fetches no more than a Single A prospect.
Then release him.
Worf - May 20, 2009
DeRo is 34 and performing below his career averages why would we want him at 2nd the next couple years?
He was already a below average fielder at 2nd last season and if his plate struggles continue he’s nothing more than the utility player he was before he came to the Cubs.
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
ha
elgato - May 20, 2009
Send him packin!! He is totally worthless!!
Every Cardinal fan I’ve spoken with shares that same opinion, they couldn’t wait to be rid of him last year!!
Itchy - May 20, 2009
Probably not an uncommon sentiment, but easier said than done
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
So you've been speaking with Cardinals fans, eh?
SEIZE HIM!
daver - May 20, 2009
lol
CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) - May 21, 2009
Hard to solve a position for a couple of years with a guy who's 34 years old.
We did the right thing by trading him at the peak of his value. Even if we lost his versatility as a result.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
exactly
Acapulco Taco Pie - May 20, 2009
I'm really not interested in making DeRosa our long-term 2B.
I’m also not ready to write off Fontenot, whose bat has looked cold since he’s started playing 3B. His OPS was up at .800 or so before he moved to 3B. I’d keep playing him and expect the bat to come around when he’s not worried about learning a new position.
DGU - May 20, 2009
I'm guessing it has more to do with playing everyday...
and less to do with where he’s playing.
He’s might just better as a platoon player… when his body has more time to recover.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
Maybe
But even then, as the LH batter who’d get most of the ABs, we wouldn’t need a hitter as good as DeRosa to platoon with Fontenot.
At this point, I think the likeliest explanation is a combo of Fontenot focused on defense and letting his bat slide, and just being a little off in his timing, such that his LD% is down.
Put him back at 2B for 100 ABs and I think all is right again (if not as spectacular as last season).
DGU - May 20, 2009
I'd prefer to see a platoon of Theriot and Fontenot at 2B
But, we need to get a real major league SS first, for that to happen.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
I'm not quite why you'd want to platoon The Riot with anyone
at this point in his career. He’s shown the ability to improve offensively every year.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
because his arm
doesn’t get any better. Nor does his range.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
That has nothing to do with his offense.
You’re taliking about his defensive position, I’m talking about the silliness of suggesting platooning The Riot.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
you do realize
you can’t platoon players so that one plays offense and one plays defense.
Fact is, Ryan Theriot is a second-baseman playing out of position. If you platooned him at second base, his arm and range wouldn’t be as much of a liability.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Which also means he gets less at bats...
Which I think is what Cows was saying was silly, given that he’s offensive production is up…
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
Depends on what you're interested in, I guess.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
That's true.
Cost/benefit analysis and all that.
The thing is though that Theriot has the highest UZR/150 on the Cubs (at over 16.4 if I remember) among players who qualify for the rating, and the 3rd highest on the Cubs among all the players, irrespective of the number of touches.
Unless I’m missing something, that means his defense isn’t that bad.
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
Actually...
for fun I looked again. Theriot’s UZR/150 is 16.2. Which gives him the third highest rating in the all of baseball…
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
It's true.
The UZR system, which is somewhat controversial but still pretty highly regarded, smiles upon Ryan Theriot. The one caveat to bear in mind is that, as I understand it, you need at least 1,000 innings of data to get a fairly accurate reading, and Theriot’s 2009 rating of 3.6/16.2 is based on only 310 innings.
However – a big however – is his career UZR/UZR 150 rating of 7.2/4.0 is based on 2452.1 innings of major league play. Thus, he does appear a good shortstop. Not spectacular – but, under this system at least, he is saving runs at that position, not costing them.
daver - May 20, 2009
We don't need Mark DeRosa.
What do we need? We need a 3B to play until Aramis gets back. We need a defensive artist backup at SS. We need a platoon partner for Fontenot.
Scales, Freel, and/or Miles should do the latter. DeRosa can’t do the SS part. Yes, he could do the 3B part, but then where do you put him when Aramis gets back?
So, really what we should be looking for is a SS/3B option and we can get one of those cheaper than DeRosa.
DGU - May 20, 2009
I agree.
I thought Ryan Freel solved the third base backup problem, but Lou isn’t playing him there.
daver - May 20, 2009
Exactly.
What’s the point of Freel if he pinch-hits once a week?
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
it's still
a two-for-one deal.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Well, it did get Gathright off the team.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
True, but if getting rid of a player
who never gets in the game, why not replace him with something Lou would use, or at least something the team needs that Lou never uses, like a reliever.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
You're suggesting going to a 13-man pitching staff?
Lou doesn’t use the 12th guy.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
Not what I was thinking, but
If the 25th guy on the roster is so deep on the depth chart to never (almost) get in the game in the NL, does it matter whether that player is a pitcher?
I was more thinking packaging gathright and one of the various relief options for an upgrade.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Someone has to be the offensive equivalent of Neal Cotts, I suppose
Shanghai Badger - May 20, 2009
If the guys were hitting no one would be talking about DeRo...
Bradley hasn’t been consistent. Soto isn’t last years Soto. Lee hasn’t gotten it going yet. If the bats were more consistent we wouldn’t be having the conversation.
Fishbone2 - May 20, 2009
I'd like to see Scales in the line-up until he cools down...
and move him behind Soto, to help get Soto stareted.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
Play Scales till he fails!
Itchy - May 20, 2009
That's seems to be the exact opposite approach Lou has taken with Aaron Miles.
Play Miles until he succeeds!
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
Yep, Lou must be convinced the Miles is due.
Itchy - May 20, 2009
unfortunately, I'm terrified it's a veteran vs. rookie thing
I can’t see any other reason why Miles is getting the bulk of the playing time, even when Scales is outproducing him by quite a lot
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
Which is all the more ironic
since DeRosa’s not hitting either. It’s early in the season and slumps are magnified in the stat-lines.
DGU - May 20, 2009
I would have loved to had Omar Vizquel on our team for the last 3 years.
But, we were never interested.
SackMan - May 20, 2009
DeRosa could play third, and was closer in power numbers to Aram than Fontenot could ever hope to be
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
Um
Fontenot had the higher SLG last year and isn’t far off this year.
DGU - May 20, 2009
With all of this talk about DeRosa...
I think it’s worth pointing out that Hendry finally sold high on someone.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
and didn't much in return.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
it's a little early to be making that judgment
elgato - May 20, 2009
not if we're actually taking a win now mentality
supposedly this team is built to win this year. So we trade a decent offensive player for someone who may or may not help us at some distant point in the future
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
In your opinion?
Okay, that’s nice. But he got market value for DeRosa. Your perceived value doesn’t mean anything. DeRosa’s actual value, obviously, is what the Cubs received in return.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
I guess that goes two ways.
Hendry sold high, but received a few pieces. One of which may pan out down the road. None of which helped the team in the near future.
If what he got was market value, was it worth selling high? I’m not so sure.
N Oakley - May 20, 2009
Just what kind of value do you think the market puts on
a second baseman in his mid-30’s?
This is the 2009 market, not the market of the past. Veteran (aging) players have declined in value while young players have increased in value.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
At the same time...
… DeRosa’s versatility and (relatively) inexpensive contract made him attractive trade bait.
Al Yellon - May 20, 2009
Okay, so I'm confused
did Hendry sell high? Or did he get Market value, which in today’s market is actually low. And if market value was low, why sell at all?
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
to free up space
for Bradley?
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Didn't Hendry
already have plans to add a $10mil Rf going into the offseason. I don’t think he went into last offseason planning to get rid of DeRo. Correct me if I’m wrong but the move to dump DeRo was to free up salary for the player who shall not be named.
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
I don't know.
Honestly, I don’t.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Market value if one of these guys actually make it in the majors
otherwise it was a complete salary dump.
Itchy - May 20, 2009
disagree entirely
if the cubs thought, f’r’instance
that there was a 40% chance on each of them making the big show
and a 10% chance that one of them would be a solid contributor down the line,
that’s not a salary dump.
while i pulled the numbers out of my behind, that’s the reality. ‘get some players that may reasonably be of legit value sometime’ isn’t a ‘salary dump’. a salary dump is like the nba trades where you send a guy and a first round pick for a second round pick.
tim815 - May 20, 2009
Ok, it wasn't a pure salary dump but the guys he got weren't even big time prospects
or major league ready. No Jon Garland’s coming our way in that trade. Hendry got fleeced.
Itchy - May 20, 2009
I got fleeced once.
Mapmaker - May 20, 2009
What was her name?
Itchy - May 20, 2009
What a shame.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
oh, dear...
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Nope, nothin'.
I can check that fetish off my list of prospects.
daver - May 20, 2009
yikes
gwood - May 20, 2009
Hey, I'm just trying to be thorough.
daver - May 20, 2009
Gotta try
everything once, at least that’s what my mom used to tell me. But then I think she was talking about vegetables.
gwood - May 20, 2009
that's a different
fetish.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
What about fruit?
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
oh dear
sue369 - May 20, 2009
This one's out of the running, too.
daver - May 20, 2009
clearly a work of art.
zevkalman - May 20, 2009
more of a religion.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
That looks like
that rare fruit known as the Cantabanana. I hear they are tasty.
gwood - May 20, 2009
yikes it right!!
Itchy - May 20, 2009
what? So any trade we make is exactly the market value for those players?
your argument makes no sense.
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
It makes complete sense. Think about it.
We fans speculate about perceived value all the time. But the only way we know what a player’s ACTUAL value is, is by looking at who he netted in return.
kanderber - May 20, 2009
SWL
no SD trip for me – i have to work this weekend.
i see that the august trip to SD is an all-week trip @ SD Mon-Wed and @ LA Thurs-Sun. i will try to work in our LA office that week and catch a few of those games
joeschmitt - May 20, 2009
too bad...I'll be at the game on Sunday. Look for the dork in the BCB shirt behind the plate.
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
Let's hope you go 2 for 2 for getting on TV.
daver - May 20, 2009
I think
you’re going to have to be more specific.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
howry cow?
joeschmitt - May 20, 2009
PLEASE don't tell me
you’re going to be talking on your cell phone and wave at the camera!
Those people are truly the biggest morons! They pay an obscene amount of money to look like an idiot on TV.
cowsarecool220 - May 20, 2009
Print out a huge milton poster...and if we win...well just hold it up
xene - May 20, 2009
Milton Mask?
santoswoodenlegs - May 20, 2009
You could always
wear a pink hat so that we can easily identify you and feel like we are watching a game played at Wrigley at the same time.
gwood - May 20, 2009
DeRosa
Mark DeRosa was traded because the Cubs “couldn’t afford him”… not because they got a great deal in return for him or because he wasn’t productive and valuable to the team. So how do they re-acquire DeRosa without using up most of the money this “cash-strapped” franchise has in reserve to fix the bullpen? The bullpen in its current state will cost this team many more games than not having a utility player/stop-gap thirdbaseman. I’m not interested in the Cubs re-acquiring Mark DeRosa unless the Indians pay most of his salary and give up one of their bullpen arms. The Brewers can have him… they have better and cheaper options than Mark DeRosa too.
jameslcrockett - May 20, 2009
I said this last night in the game thread...
I’m saying it again. Do not be surprised if DeRo is back in Cubbie blue by mid season, if not sooner.
Jimmyeatworld - May 20, 2009
And I'm saying right now
it won’t happen.
WanderingWanderer - May 20, 2009
won't happen..not by mid-season, not in the next offseason, never
cubsnlinux - May 20, 2009
You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine...
Jimmyeatworld - May 20, 2009
true dat
cubsnlinux - May 20, 2009
Pardon?
daver - May 20, 2009
Twittermeyer reports
Carpenter has been reactivated. Ankiel still on the DL.
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
Lineups
Cubs
Sori
Riot
Dome
Lee
Bradley
Font (3b)
Soto
Scales (2b)
Demp.
Cards:
Schumaker
Rasmus
Pujols
Molina
Duncan
Stavinoha
Thurston
Carpenter (pitcher)
Ryan
drewishdrewid - May 20, 2009
BOBBY SCALES
THERE IS A GOD
AND S/HE’S A CUBS FAN
dtpollitt - May 20, 2009
scales, yea!!!!!
KaliCub - May 20, 2009
That's a fine looking lineup if you ask me...
And then when ARam gets back….suuuwweeeeettt…
CubsWin!Oregon - May 20, 2009
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