Bleed Cubbie Blue

Signed to play baseball

What are you talking abut? This is the National League. Pitchers hit. It’s unfortunate Zambrano got hurt, but obviously the Cubs are pleased with his bat – that’s why Lou used him to pinch hit in the prior three games.

“We” didn’t sign Zambrano, the Chicago National League Ball Club did. And it’s obvious they want him to do more than merely pitch for them.

He got +$90 million for his hitting.

Right. Must be the reason.

he for +90 million

to be a BASEBALL PLAYER.

Or, more specifically, a...........

………….???

baseball player.

Pitchers in the National League are expected to bat, hit, bunt, run, leg out grounders, field their position, and PLAY BASEBALL.

in your world they are…. please name a pitcher that lead his to to the world series title with his bunting & bat

NAME ONE PLEASE

I dunno, Babe Ruth did a pretty good job of batting and pitching.

Not that Zambrano’s Ruth, but you asked.

And I'm willing to wager...........

………he never tried to leg out a bunt.

I'd be willing to bet he legged out an IF hit at least once

Again, missing the point.

Legging out an infield hit is, in some ways, simple good fortune, mixed with fundamentals of playing the game.

OVERTLY TRYING to bunt for a hit, is completely different.

I don't see them as completely different

And I’m done talking about it.

um, isn't a bunt hit an infield hit?

It’s just an infield hit on purpose. Players hit infield hits all the time on accident. The result is the same, a player hits it on the ground and runs as fast as they can to first base.

quite

you always leg the grounder out, whether it’s bunting as a sacrifice, bunting to get on base, or because you knocked it off the head of the bat — because you don’t want to lose the baserunner unless you’re actually thrown out.

modern era - give me a break - last 20 or 30 yrs

Then that leaves out Drysdale in 1965

And his............

……….0-for-5 with 4Ks?

Kinda supports the point.

Read the question again

please name a pitcher that lead his to to the world series title with his bunting & bat

Soriano didn’t hit during the post-season either. That doesn’t mean his hits during the season didn’t help the team get to the post-season. But I digress. Soriano is neither a pitcher nor a WS participant.

That cuts the AL out since they have the DH

Bob Forsch 1987 St. Louis Cardinals

The Twins won the 87 World Series

but Forsch was a very good hitting pitcher for the Cardinals.

Don Drysdale, 1965

Bunting? Maybe not. But hitting, yes!

Don Drysdale............

………..never had a post-season hit.

so what?

did his hits help his team get to the post season? I bet they did. Do you think Zambrano’s hits DIDN’T help the Cubs get to the post season the past two years? I bet you do.

But you’d be wrong.

Read the question again

please name a pitcher that lead his to to the world series title with his bunting & bat

Understood. My bad.

That said, I’m sure Walter Alston was far more impressed with his >20 wins than his <20 RBIs, and certainly would not have condoned DD trying to drop bunts for hits.

Don't you have to get to the playoffs in order to get to the WS?

Why does that count less? Only 8 teams get to the playoffs in MLB, by far, the hardest of all the, major sports to get to the playoffs.

The last pitcher I remember with a hit in the WS is Jason Marquis (I think) in 2004.

Nah, just last year in Game 4

Sonnanstine and Blanton got hits.

linky

They were both...........

………successful attempts for bunt singles – right?

You see, this is the crux of the discussion. It’s not should a pitcher hit, but rather how they approach the at-bat.

Is it okay for a pitcher to lean into a pitch? After all, he’ll be awarded first base even if he can’t continue to take the mound.

Seems like a fair exchange to me, and after all, he was simply DOING HIS JOB AS A BASEBALL PLAYER!

My response was to cowsarecool220

who said Marquis was the last pitcher to get a hit in the WS.

Blanton’s hit was a HR. Sonnanstine’s was a line drive single to LF.

You're right, I forgot about that.

cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009 reply

in the National League they are.

that’s why they bat. That’s why they’re not treated like pretty-pretty princesses the way they are in the AL.

Baseball is a game played with nine players on a side. Pitchers bat.

you are 100% incorrect on this… i cant believe I am saying this.. you obviously have never played baseball at a high level

which has

nothing to do with anything. Have you played baseball at a “high level”? Who cares?

yes… it has do to with your comprehension of the sport

I comprehend

the sport just fine. I’ve been playing and watching baseball for over 30 years. I’m not denigrating your “knowledge” of baseball. I’m perfectly happy to disagree with you on this issue, especially since it would appear that Lou agrees with me, or he wouldn’t keep sending Z out to pinch hit.

No one wants Z to be hurt. Nine times out of ten, he makes that bunt and ISN’T hurt. Stop being chicken little.

Just stop feeding the troll, drew.

It’s futile.

he was reasonable last year.

Yeah, troll's a bit harsh.

I draw my line at personal stuff like “you’ve never played at a high level”, which is irrelevant.

It is, but that's still not a troll

A troll is someone who has no rooting interest and is just here to cause trouble

In Thursday’s loss to the Marlins, Carlos Zambrano pinch-hit in the eighth inning and singled with two outs. Could Cubs fans see more of their ace in that role?

“I hope not,” manager Lou Piniella said

so what?

in THIS game, he was the starting pitcher, and is expected to play his position. that includes hitting.

I’m perfectly happy to disagree with you on this issue, especially since it would appear that Lou agrees with me, or he wouldn’t keep sending Z out to pinch hit.

guess he doesnt like too

I don't even know what this means.

I wish I could comment on this

…but i haven’t played baseball at a high level

Makes one wonder

What exactly is “high level”?

Does that mean he was the backup catcher for your beer league softball team or the starting pitcher?

should be "his"

not “your”

Oh God

If I have to start reading threads about guys and their “high level of baseball” I’m gonna puke. Just b/c someone played college ball or even “A” ball doesn’t make them an expert.

Yep

Jerry Hairston, Jr , for example.

lol

Personal attacks are not allowed on this site.

$90 million for his hitting

Of course he didn’t get that money just because he’s a good hitter. But if the Cubs – the people who signed him to that contract – didn’t like his bat, they probably wouldn’t be using him to pinch hit.

That's cart before the horse thinking.

I'm a tad confused...

…how dragging a bunt into a single is “careless”? If I remember correctly, it was Zambrano’s “careless” bunt single that started our grand slam inning.

pray he doesnt end up on the DL….

And he could've pulled his hammy

running on the warning track to warm or stretching out a double.

ur clueless

Why?

Because I have no problem with hustle? OR because I know muscle strains happen even when you didn’t do anything wrong?

Interesting.

this is avoidable… do yo uactually think that we pay hime millions to bunt or for that matter to hit above .50?

The Cubs pay him millions to play

And playing to Carlos, and millions of NL fans, means the pitcher hits when its his spot and then hustles to force the defense to make a play.

I'll save my prayers

for more meaningful things.

Z could go on the DL after breaking a bat over his leg after a stikeout

or pull a groin legging out a double or walking into the clubhouse.

he could hit a TV like Kahlil Greene did last year.

Or he could walk through a glass door. Or he could trip on the club-house steps.

Or kick a fan like Kyle Farnsworth did during a playoff race.

aw

I miss him. So MUCH.

What was it you called him?

Drunky McTightpants?

no

but I wish I had.

Someone here called him that or something close

Daver maybe.

Now that's a guy teams keep paying millions of dollars to play

and I have no idea why. The Royals just signed him for something like 9 million dollars for 2 years. Shockingly, he’s stunk this year.

He's got great stuff

Everyone keeps thinking they’ll be the team he’s different for.

He’s like that boyfriend you keep trying to change and all he does is ask you to bail him out… again.

hmmm

is he my ex-wife?

I was at that game

Very hot, humid, and miserable. Oh, and the weather was uncomfortable too.

Or break a hand on Michael Barret’s face.

Villeslgr - May 3, 2009 reply

better than mine

nicely played

Or break his hand punching a gatorade cooler

The breaking of the bat...........

………is akin to the bunting for a hit.

Simply stated: Bad baseball.

The legging out of the double, depending upon how much “legging” was involved, might also be bad baseball.

There’s a way to play the game intelligently and to see the bigger picture. A pitcher’s contributions at the plate are miniscule in comparison to their role on the hill.

I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make sense. He’s supposed to get on base. He’s a BATTER.

But he is a pitcher

He should just go up there and watch 3 strikes and sit back down.

maybe the best thing to do

is not even let Z take a bat up to the plate with him. He has to be a batter, but that doesn’t mean we have to let him swing anything.

All the way up to the point..........

……….where he’s unable to pitch.

Why doesn’t that register with you?

Why would you DEMAND a person place himself in harm’s way while performing a role that is far down the list of his DESIRED contributions to the overall good?

he's a baseball player

it’s his job to play baseball.

It was probably Z's decision to bunt

So if we’re going to play the blame game, point the finger at him.

Ya think?

But for the record, I'm glad he did it

It sparked a rally and showed baseball smarts.

From the bench.

Where he wound up.

Where he likely would not have been had he taken his normal at-bat.

His normal at-bat in which, by everyone’s admission, many times provides good results.

But instead the BASEBALL PLAYER cost himself his primary job, by trying to exceed at a role that is far down the pecking order of his priorities.

don't you get it?

This IS his normal at bat — doing what he thinks he needs to do to get on base!

His priority is to play to win. I don’t understand why this is so hard to get. He didn’t try to steal home. He didn’t pull a Ted Lilly and ram into a catcher — how come people weren’t all up in arms over THAT one? He did what he thought was best to get on base. He got injured, which happens from time to time, and it sucks, but I’d rather he play hard and get hurt every once in a while instead of being a flinchy princess like they got in the AL.

I can see both sides of the argument....

But my take on the situation…..is WHY are highly paid professional athletes pulling/straining (muscles) running the bases?

It goes to show the attitude of the organization……

I can see it happening from time to time….

BUT this is the 3rd cub in a month (Bradley, Ramierez and now Z) to have “strain” running the bases……I think it say somethig about the day to day preparation and conditioning of the team…. that is what “bothers” me…

This is the perfect ? for Reed's to answer

With all his playing experience, that should be something he will easily know.

For what it's worth..........

………..Lilly’s play was foolish, much for the same reason Zambrano’s play was foolish.

Lilly was lucky that he was not hurt; unfortunately we can’t say the same for Z.

I guess millionaire ballplayers should not give anything extra

at the risk of injuring themselves and possibly missing a few games. They shouldn’t run over a catcher to avoid injury. They shouldn’t dive for a ball. They shouldn’t run hard to beat out a hit. They shouldn’t “hop” when catching a flyball.

Hmmmm….web gem or play everyday? Can’t…get….hurt.

Don't compare pitchers and position players

Don’t you know pitchers are not resposnible for anything other than what they do on the mound?

Everyone should be able to play everywhere.

That sounds right. Someone better show Fukudome how to strap on the “tools of ignorance” because I doubt he knows how.

you know

it’s arguable that, for example, losing a player like Soriano or Fukudome is just as bad as losing Zambrano. You think this team hasn’t felt the loss of Ramirez? Maybe our star third baseman and most consistent hitter shouldn’t have legged out that double he got injured on.

Face it. You have a double standard.

Double standard?

Can you point that out, more clearly, anyway?

are you kidding?

you consistently say “don’t compare position players to pitchers”. As if, somehow, a Zambrano is worth more than a Ramirez or a Soriano.

You have a double standard. Position players are expected to leg things out. When Rami or Sori or Gameboard loaf on a grounder, they get crucified. Carlos Zambrano takes an opportunity to produce and makes the most of it, and you’re worried he’s going to crack like a porcelain figurine.

And I said that where?

Or even implied it?

busted.

at 6:56pm on May 3, you said:

There are functions fundamental………..
………..to the roles of each player on the team, so your "apples and oranges" comparison really doesn’t hold water.

at 7:11 pm on May 3, you said:

The result of the play is meaningless.
The point of the play is foolish for a player in his position.

at 7:30 pm on May 3, you said:

In this case………
……….."someone" = the starting pitcher.

If "someone" was a speedster who has the skills and abilities to execute this play, then I have no problem with such actions.

At 1:19 pm on May 4, you said:

We’ve fleshed out…………

…….the apples-to-oranges comparison previously. Unfortunately it remains at the core of the discussion and apparently can’t be absorbed by some.

At 9:25 pm on May 3, you said:

But if a pitcher is reaching outside his bounds at the plate (a la trying to bunt for a hit), that’s not meeting his intended purpose in the game.

And then at 10:32 pm on May 3, you said:

Why do you compare position players to pitchers?
You are doing yourself a tremendous disservice by attempting to draw such parallels.

In what way is it a double standard?

There are standards for position players and standards for pitchers.

That’s not a double standard, it’s a distinction by role on the team.

If you think that is a double standard, then yes, I’ve been espousing a “double standard” the entire time.

You can’t seem to grasp that a pitcher needs to be thinking of his pitching ABOVE ALL, and therefore relegating his hitting to the back seat.

I AM A BASEBALL PLAYER. I HIT THE BALL. I PLAY HARD.

But that’s not the case. They have to protect their role as a pitcher first.

no, they don't.

They’re national league ball players. That means they play their position and when their turn in the lineup comes up, they go and they bat and they dig out every ground ball.

unbelievable.

Lilly did exactly the right thing at exactly the right time, and he is LIONIZED for hit.

Have you no passion for the game? Do amazing plays not give you a rush to watch?

Amazing plays do.

Dumb plays don’t.

good thing

that Lilly’s bum-rush of Molina was just as amazing as Z’s bunt.

W FLAG IS UP.......FISH are FRIED.....

Hope Z is o.k. we had just got done talking about injuries…….D. Lee hit like we know he can . Made the differance today . Todays game was not error free and that is something that can haunt a team,,,,,,Can’t help to wonder why Soto did not opt to get the runner out caught between home and third….Len and Bob were talking Saturday about the WBC and it’s effect on players …Gotta Make you wonder…..Cubs take the series…..

cubs north - May 3, 2009 reply

Soto just didnt see him

The minute the ball left the bat soto had his eye on that ball and getting it too first. What should have happened is Z should taken a quick look up and alerted Soto to the runner.

Could Soto have thought there were 2 outs in the inning?

Employee22 - May 3, 2009 reply

I think Soto

was just pressing as much on D as he was on O. He seems very stressed.

Mine is flying too... what a sweet sight!

Emelie - May 3, 2009 reply

I'm not overly concerned about either one

By comparison, Brocail strained a hammy today for the Astros, was on the ground for a while and had to be helped off the field. If Z misses a start, so be it. Looks like if he misses any time at all, it won’t be much more than that.

We should be worried if Z misses a start

Yes, we should.

But we don’t know yet what will happen. I’ll reserve judgment till then.

Do I want him to miss a start? No

But it wouldn’t be the end of the world if he did.

+1

cubsnlinux - May 3, 2009 reply

I’d consider even if he could pitch Friday skipping him anyway to be safe.

we don't even know the results

of the MRI yet. Let’s not worry about something till we know it’s an actual problem.

MRIs are routine in that situation, I think

Ramirez had one on his calf, too.

Whatever the outcome, don't rush Z back

I’ll not forget when Sutcliffe was rushed back from a hamstring pull in May 1985 – he changed his motion and screwed up his shoulder for two years.

agreed!

Lets just remember the "wonderful" start the 2008 World Series paticipants had

On May 3rd 2008.

Tampa Bay 16 -14
Philadelphia 17-14

2009

Cubs
13-11

Yes the Cardinals are playing wonderful ball right now… Great but turning the Calender back to 2008 we see The Diamondbacks where 21 – 9 on this date in 08, and they didnt even make the playoffs.

So what does this mean? Lets not get anywhere near the ledge yet

Galvan316 - May 3, 2009 reply

Nice to see

you back in here Galvan.

Aww well thank you :)

I appreciate it very much

Galvan316 - May 3, 2009 reply

what's in the water witht the Cubs----leg muscle strains pandemic

Bradley, Ramirez, Marmol, Zambrano and a neck for Lee.

Ivy Walls - May 3, 2009 reply

This is almost like

watching an old episode of “Marcus Welby, M.D.”

Love

that Brolin charecter

wild bill - May 3, 2009 reply

I was a big fan

of the secretary, myself.

Consuelo Lopez???

played by Elena Verdugo?

That's it!

Impressive.

urns out he strained a hamstring, and who knows what that’ll mean for his next start. Z plays the game with passion and maybe this was an “I’ll show you guys what a bunt ought to look like!” moment, but he really needs to exercise more caution, because what happens if this moment puts him on the shelf for two weeks or longer?

We deal with it. Zambrano is paid to play baseball. This is the National League, and pitchers are expected to play just as hard as position players. They bat, hit and run. Zambrano is a ball-player. There’s no use in trying to keep him down; he won’t do it anyway. It’s like wrestling a pig.

Besides, I like having a pitcher who is such a competitor.

Agreed

Overall, I was much, much more concerned about Z’s shoulder issues last year than I am about this.

+1

He is a competitor and I expect this from him, just gotta hope it doesnt shelve him for long if at all.

It's one thing to play hard...........

………..it’s another thing to play stupid by trying to make plays that are not within the realm of reality.

There’s no reason Z should be trying to lay down a bunt for a hit. This is foolhardy on his part, and in his zeal to “get another hit”, he may have cost himself a start (or more). Whether he actually misses time or not, is moot, in my opinion, because it’s only a matter of time before this idiot hurts himself trying to do more than required FOR HIS POSITION.

Too bad he doesn’t try as hard when he’s called upon to SACRIFICE BUNT, a role that he should be routinely preparing himself for.

I’m all about having a pitcher who is competitive, but show it on the mound. He sure could have taken a lesson from either of the #31’s today.

I'll continue to disagree

he wanted to get his team fired up, and he got the job done.

And I don’t cotton to calling him an idiot, either.

So he fired the team up?

And you have proof of that?

Ah, Lee’s granny was a direct result of Z’s lunacy. Shoulda known.

Far more likely the players in the dugout felt depressed watching their ace waddle off the field.

I’ll back away from “idiot” if you accept “4-inch thick cranium” in its stead.

sorry

no deal. Zambrano is a competitor and a player. The double-standard around here is a amazing. If Bradley or Soriano had laid down that bunt, or hit a dribbler up the third base line and NOT legged it out, everyone would be screaming, even though a tweaked leg would be a BIGGER deal to a position player’s ability to play.

The Monday-morning quarterbacks

always are right, drew. You must not have gotten the memo. :)

There are functions fundamental...........

………..to the roles of each player on the team, so your “apples and oranges” comparison really doesn’t hold water.

yes, there are

fundamental functions to the roles of each player on the team.

In the National League, one of the functions for pitchers is HITTING.

Yes, that's true.

Risking injury to beat out a bunt when baserunning is not one of your best skills is, to me, not the best idea.

well, ok.

I don’t disagree with that. But he was just legging out a bunt. Every player is expected to do that.

Every player?

Even those without good baserunning speed?

Ortiz

Didn’t Ortiz bunt for a base hit in response to the shift a couple of years ago? If David Ortiz can do it, anyone can.

WHEN NO ONE IS FIELDING THIRD!!!!!

they're expected to leg out

ground balls. Milton Bradley took flak for NOT running out ground balls when he was injured, for pete’s sake!

Yes, every players is exected to run hard to 1st base.

what a different tone you use with Al

Clutche - May 3, 2009 reply

yes.

perhaps you could learn something from that.

that you can be decent occasionally?

that respect engenders respect.

only if you show repect to all, not selectively

and you're still not getting it.

you reap what you sow.

Oh, I fully understand.........

but my point was your respectful response to Al differs from your normal responses to others.

everyone

gets the response they deserve.

I think it’s interesting that you’re constantly clamoring about the Commenting Police, but you’re spending most of your time talking about other people’s comments, and not the substance therein.

It is obvious..........

EVERYONE that disagrees with the you and the establishment are met with disrespect and ridicule. And yes, I respond to other people’s comments, and agree or disagree with the substance within, so what’s so horrible about that? If I’m in agreement all is well, but dare to disagree and the Commenting Police come out of the woodwork.

once again

right over your head. I disagree with Worf in the other thread, but he’s questioning if I have enough “high level” baseball experience.

I disagree with other people all the time.

And lately, all you’ve BEEN is Comment Police. “Well, that’s not what you said to X”. Get over it.

I think my initial point went over your head....

disagreement is Ok, in fact, if we all agreed it would be boring as hell, but it’s the disrespect and ridicule a newbie receives from the establishment that gets old, and quite frankly, stirs the pot. As to my comment you quoted, it was a debate among many and it was my opinion/comment that X contradicted him/her self. What’s so horrible about that?

plenty of newbies get along just fine here.

I was one two years ago.

You’re still not getting it. You’re not discussing a possible contradiction between two posts. You’re harping on your perceptions of who is being nice to whom.

It's not perception dude........

it’s reality, and I refuse to drink your kool-aid.

I'm not offering you any.

Oh, by the way, one of your buddies, Cubbie-Tim.........

is the consummate Comment Police. So why is he not wrong for doing so?

Legging it out

I can think of a number of instances where Zambrano has tried to beat out infield hits without incident before.

Look, it’s unfortunate that he tweaked his hamstring, but I don’t think there was any real good reason to think it would happen. It’s an occupational hazard.

That sounds about right to me.

Of course, I’m also a person who thinks that the hyper-specialization in baseball, while rational, is a bad thing for the sport.

dude we are on the same page :)

difference is they play every day and are expected to be quick down the line

so are pitchers.

only in your world...not in lou's or jim's

well

you’re free to disagree. But Lou values hitting. You cannot pretend that this is not the case. If it were, he wouldn’t use Z as a pinch hitter.

Please..........

…….enough. Keep your opinion, but it differs greatly with the experts (and I’m not claiming to be one)

is Lou an expert?

national league pitchers are expected to bat, hit, bunt, and run to first base.

your really obsessed with this aren't you

Would have you felt this way if he hadn’t pulled his hamstring?

if he hadn't pulled his hamstring

everyone would be applauding his aggressiveness.

It’s amazing to me. A thoughtless or “egotistical” Zambrano would have refused to come out of the game when he realized that he was hurt. Z made the play, thought he was ok, took his lead and realized he wasn’t, and came out of the game to reduce the chances of worsening his injury. His bunt directly led to the rally that won the game. There’s absolutely NOTHING to question here.

nope

Wrong.

Again.

obviously

I disagree.

I hadn't noticed!

Except when Al said it was a bad idea.

You agreed with his position that Z should have not been making that kind of play.

Hmm………Al, how do you do it?

no, I didn't.

in fact, I clearly disagreed with him.

So Al says..........

“Risking injury to beat out a bunt when baserunning is not one of your best skills is, to me, not the best idea.”

To which you respond………

“Well okay. I don’t disagree with that”

Sorry I had to confront you with your own words.

I -don't- disagree with it.

But I disagree that this was a bad play to make. And you’ve quoted only one part of the conversation, thus leaving the context in the rubble. Very well played, Comrade Stalin, but I don’t subscribe to Pravda.

My bad.

Yah, you really laid into Al with your reubttal.

Joke……….

I disagreed with him

If you don’t like the tone of responses to your comments, perhaps you should think about why that happens.

yes... every time he does something outside of throwing 8 strong... i worry bout him

wow you must worry a lot then.

It's unfortunate...........

………..because we all should.

lol

yeah, ok. In the end, it’s baseball. We’re not talking about supplies not getting to troops in afghanistan if Zambrano misses a start.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.........

……….but we should all worry about Zambrano.

my previous

statement stands.

wow you must have a very easy life

If worrying about Z takes up that much of your time.

Oddly enough..........

………..it doesn’t occupy that much of my time, but as a fan, which I presume we all are, we should be worried.

willie mays hayes' gloves - May 4, 2009 reply

You worry too much. Life is too

short to worry about what happens on a baseball field. It’s a game. It’s just entertainment. Worry that your children might get killed by a drunken driver. That’s what I worry about. That’s important.

+1

I've got better things to worry about

than Zambrano’s health status minute by minute during a game.

me too

damn I’m agreeing w/ you twice in one day.

Now I might start worrying about that LOL

Unequivocally YES.

31s

One of those two 31s hit 13 homers in his Cubs career. He wasn’t exactly averse to trying to hit the ball out.

Agreed, but............

……….how many times did he try to bunt for a hit? That’s what’s on trial here.

Pitchers bunting for hits

Pitchers try to bunt for hits all the time. Harden and Dempster have both tried to do it this very season. Because they practice laying down bunts and they’re fairly good at it. It’s not uncommon, and it’s not a sign of immaturity.

Z fakes bunt all of the time.

He draws the infielders in (and lessens their range) and if they don’t, he bunts.

Sounds like a good strategy to me.

Fakes make sense.

No problem trying to get the defense on edge, but risking your next start as a pitcher for a base hit really lacks forethought.

How would the fake work...

if he never actually bunted?

It's mental.

the threat of a fake bunt

doesn’t work unless you actually bunt from time to time.

BINGO!!

i seem to remember

Maddux laying down surprise bunts for a hit on several occasions

kodypuckett23 - May 3, 2009 reply

If it wasn’t in the realm of reality how did he get on base?

Villeslgr - May 3, 2009 reply

Why don't you tell us what you really think of Mr. Zambrano?

Whether he actually misses time or not, is moot, in my opinion, because it’s only a matter of time before this idiot hurts himself trying to do more than required FOR HIS POSITION.

tville, Al has an interesting request of people that comment, don’t say anything you wouldn’t say to someone’s face. I would really enjoy watching you say this to Carlos’ face. You’re opinion of what happened in today’s game is obviously prejudiced by how you judge him as an individual. It’s really unfortunate to see a Cubs fan have so little respect for a player that obviously loves to play the game and gives his best effort every time he takes the field. The next time you do something at your job, if you have one, that results in a different outcome than you would have liked I hope someone comes up to you and screams in your face that you are an idiot.

Acapulco Taco Pie - May 3, 2009 reply

I have little respect.............

………..for some of the decisions Zambrano makes on the field.

Candidly speaking, I would have no problem raising these points directly to him because if no one has so far, someone really should.

That said, I have respect for the man, the person, his accomplishments, and thus my only criticisms of him are based upon his actions in the public eye while playing for the Cubs.

Actually calling someone and idiot is not criticism based upon actions in the public eye, it's name calling.

To engage in this sort of name calling simply demonstrates that a person lacks information to back up their opinion. Frankly, I don’t see any point in even debating the opinion of someone that has such an obvious prejudice against a player like you evidently do with Zambrano.

Acapulco Taco Pie - May 3, 2009 reply

Nonetheless.........

……….I’ll stick by everything I’ve said, and trust me when I say I have more than enough info to formulate my opinion, an opinion shared by others who cross this site.

After all, you should have the same inf on Zambrano: Shows up own players during the game if he they make a bad play, snaps bats over his legs, spontaneous fits of rage, striking teammates in public, and now careless hitting/base running. All of these things reflect his poor style as a player and all have taken place on the field.

So if anyone is prejudice it is you, ATP. You can’t see the truth, apparently.

showing up players during the game?

what are you TALKING about?

Arguably, that punch to Michael Barrett’s face helped turn that team around. And it takes two to tango. Didn’t Prince Fielder go off on one of his co-players in a Cubs game last year?

Snapping the bats, eh. It’s not the best thing he could do. I’d prefer he do that than punch walls.

Zambrano has exhibited neither careless hitting nor careless baserunning.

Let’s see. Aramis Ramirez is prone to slamming his bat to the ground when he strikes out in a clutch position. And he injured his calf legging out a double. I know you’re going to bring the false double standard of position player vs. pitcher to the table, but that doesn’t cut it.

Haven't you claimed to watch Cubs games?

Are you telling me you have never seen Zambrano storm around the mound after a bad play in the field. Are you saying you’ve not witnessed him staring out towards a player who’s make a fielding blunder.

Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but these are FACTS documented on film.

of course I have.

and if you watched last night’s game, you’ll see that he did neither of those things.

He talked to Soto about it in the dugout, and then went out and got on base, which started the rally that won the game.

Nice of you boil down the "Z".........

………to one game.

When weak, grasp at straws.

right

because progress isn’t visible when you don’t want to see it.

Talk about grasping at straws.

That's a good one..........progress!

Well he didn’t “call anyone out” (and now likely won’t for several weeks), but his bonehead play is now proving to be very boneheaded.

And please, remember, I’ve clearly stated his bunt play would be wrong all the time.

Your opinion

does not equal the truth.

But film of same does.

YOUR

interpretation of the film does not equal the truth.

You know, I actually agree on some points

Zamrbano has a lot of growing up to do.

I disagree regarding the bunt, but the larger point is, all the hositility that went on in this thread is going to obscure any point that ANYONE is trying to make.

Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009 reply

+1

There are 2 sides of this argument, and at this point there isn’t much left to argue about cause neither side is going to budge.

jkobus - May 4, 2009 reply

Badger/jkobus.........

………..I agree fully.

I’ll attend to any remaining slams and then I’m out.

Agreed.

Getting onto a player for, essentially, hustling seems very silly to me.

kanderber - May 3, 2009 reply

Let's put things into context.

It’s one thing to hustle down the line on a “routine” ground ball. That’s playing the game hard.

It’s quite another thing to force the situation through a play that will assuredly lead to exertion beyond the norm.

Further, did anyone ever notice Greg Maddux charging down the line on ground ball outs? Rarely. He was smart enough to understand his role, and to exert foolish energy running the bases (to say nothing of trying to bunt for a hit) was not the reason he was on the team.

Let me get this straight

If Zambrano doesn’t beat out the throw, then it’s playing the game hard. But since he did, it’s “forcing the situation”? You’ve got to be kidding me.

Keith - May 3, 2009 reply

The result of the play is meaningless.

The point of the play is foolish for a player in his position.

Really?

“The result of the play is meaningless.” Let’s just stop playing baseball, because the result of the play is meaningless! Everything is meaningless! You’re such an existentialist, Albert Camus trembles in your presence!

Keith - May 3, 2009 reply

If you would prefer...........

……….to exchange a 5th inning bunt single for your ace starting pitcher, I’d appreciate you getting a managerial gig with any NL Central team.

Seems to me

You think that every time someone runs out a bunt single, they’re going to get injured. Of course I don’t want to exchange a 5th inning bunt single for a good pitcher, but you have to take risks in baseball. Every time you step into the batter’s box or onto the field there’s a chance of injury, and the same thing applies to legging out a bunt single. 99 times out of 100, there won’t be an injury. This was the 1 time that something happened.

Keith - May 3, 2009 reply

In this case.........

………..“someone” = the starting pitcher.

If “someone” was a speedster who has the skills and abilities to execute this play, then I have no problem with such actions.

As Harry Callahan said, “A man’s got to know his limitations”, but alas, our Mighty Z may never come to grips with that.

that's why

as a starting pitcher, last year he batted .337, with 4 home runs and 14 runs batted in.

THAT, my friend is a starting pitcher in the National League.

+1

The man can hit, why tell him to stop it?

You must really dig............

……….Rick Ankiel.

He plays a good CF

And he used to just pitch.

But now he’s a complete BASEBALL PLAYER!

I don't understand.

tville

is being a dork.

There’s nothing to understand.

maybe not

but I was trying.

And instead I got snippy answers or called a martian.

This place is so FUN after a win.

it's usually not like this Allie

wasn’t like this yesterday, for example… :)

Usually the borg.......

………goes uncorrupted with all participants viewing things in the same fashion.

you're not reading this site

with any kind of discerning eye if you think there’s group-think going on.

Our mighty Z has always shown that he wants to win. If there was a problem with him trying to bunt himself on I would suspect that Lou would talk to him about it so that it doesn’t happen again. I however can’t fault a guy doing his hardest to help his team win.

Villeslgr - May 3, 2009 reply

I suspect Lou will have that conversation.........

………in private.

You have no

clue if Lou will talk to him.

But you do?

Well, since you do, what do you think?

I’m on pins!

I'm not the

one claiming to know what Lou will do.

the result of the play

is a two run lead at the end of the game instead of a one run lead at the end of the game. Z had just seen the score tied. He was looking to give his team an advantage. He did that, and it paid off.

As I said previously.............

…………I realize he triggered the entire inning, propelling DLee to clout a grand slam, a feat he likely would not have accomplished had he not seen his team’s ace leaving the field in injured fashion.

Z’s play also caused Gload to make the error on the Fukudome ball allowing the bases to fill for the granny. Truly amazing!

you're being silly.

Lee might have hit that home-run, he might not have. But the fact that it was a grand slam, rather than a 3-run home run is rightfully to Zambrano’s credit.

I am being silly, but..........

………..you’ve painted a picture of Z firing up the team and leading the charge to victory. I think that’s far, far from the case.

he started the rally

that won the game. I don’t see how you can argue with that.

The Cubs did win.

That is true.

But Z put his team in peril because he had to leave, and he might have done greater damage if he misses starts or this crops up later in the season.

you make it out

like he intended to get injured.

You leg out grounders. It’s one of the fundamentals of baseball that we teach in little league. Where even the pitchers bat.

Legging out a routine ground ball...........

………..is not the same as trying to bunt for a hit.

How is this concept lost on so many?

playing the game

with intensity and on both sides of the plate is a requirement in the National League.

That’s the only concept necessary.

In your dictionary............

………..there must be a fine line between “intensity” and “stupidity”.

It's times like these

when I wish that people on this board were forced to defend their opinions about the players to the players. I’d love to see you call Zambrano stupid to his face.

i would

too bad you'll

never get the chance.

Not a card I'd buy tickets for anyway

It's easy to say you will.......

when you won’t get a change. Put him in the players parking lot w/ “his high level of baseball experience” and I bet things are a lot different.

whatever …. sorry to point out a fact that people who have played at a “high” level look T THE GAME A DIFFERENT WAY than those who havent

This isn't Pittsburgh.

Lol

then what's your "high level" experience

that I should be so impressed with?

I'm sure he's a former major league player

b/c what else could be high level expeience. Or maybe he’s a b aseball scout.

LOL

i forgot i am dealing with experts

no one has called themselves an expert here

I’m just a fan.

no your the one who said you had

the high level experience…. none of us have said that. We are just curious what your high level of experience is?

played in college with against major leaguers

with and against

And?

played in MLB sponsored wood bat leagues during summers

played with coaches who have won championships

MLB sponsors Little League, too

And?

what major leaguers

play against college players?

here we go again....

lowell

tomko

many others

byrdak

charles johsnon

dood

YOU are the one who is bringing up “qualifications”. I haven’t said I know more than you. I haven’t called you a martian. I haven’t called you an idiot, I haven’t called you stupid, I haven’t called you unqualified. We disagree about how the game should be played, apparently, but don’t make this out like we’re somehow on equal sides in how we’re treating the person on the other end of the conversation, because we are absolutely, unequivocally NOT.

Reed's Johnson

With a name like “Reed’s Johnson,” I’m really doubting that he is any older than 15… I am not so sure I can believe the “high level of baseball experience”

Again, Jerry Hairston, Jr

One of the most lacking in baseball smarts I’ve seen. And his father was a big-leaguer, too.

do u know jerry?

Yeah, Ben, too

This isn’t rocket science. I can see from repeated head-first dives into first, running bases poorly, etc that he’s not skilled with baseball smarts.

Depsite what you may want to believe, physical ability doesn’t translate into mental acuity concerning that with which you may have physical ability.

obviously you have never met him… but thinking you know him.. all athletes are dumb jocks

did he say that?

no, he did not say that.

Physical ability does not automatically equate to mental ability.

THAT’s what he said. Kyle Farnsworth can throw faster than Greg Maddux. Ronny Cedeno can run faster than Greg Maddux. Neither are smarter baseball players than Greg Maddux.

And Greg Maddux bunted LOTS of times, and he legged them all out.

That sums it up nicely, actually

I like to give myself a hand

from time to time. Not that there’s anything WRONG with that…

We don't usually admit that in public....

We feel the times call for it.

Hello, Mr. Strawman!

So you beg for a situation..............

………only to throw back that someone will never get the chance?

He was an idiot for doing what he did and his teammates know it as well. But there’s no point saying something to this guy because he’s unwilling to accept criticism from anyone on anything at any time.

they never had team mates..wouldnt know this

because saying

that I haven’t played college ball means I’ve never been on a team?

Sure, THAT makes sense. Not. As a matter of fact, I’ve been on many teams, and I’ve had to make tactical and strategic decisions of my own, for my team, on the fly, without being able to take advantage of a time-out. So really, I don’t think you’ve got anything on me here.

Support your opinion without denigrating other people. You’ll do better.

you have denigrated my opinion on z from the start – practice what u preach

not at all.

I disagree with you. I think that you want to treat pitchers like they’re china dolls. I disagree with this. I think you think that Zambrano is mental, and incapable of being a team player. I disagree with this.

But that’s based on what you’re SAYING. You suggesting that I’m not capable of commenting on this because I didn’t play college ball, or because I’ve never known what it’s like to be on a team is based on no knowledge on your part.

They’re two different things. I trust that you will take this into consideration moving forward.

no, i think our opinion differs greatly becaase of our backgrounds

find a way to explain that, then

without making it sound like you think I’m less of person for not having participated in MLB charity games.

it would be easier if you didnt attack every opinion that was not yours from the start

it would be easier

if you recognized that I don’t.

HOW you say something is just as important as WHAT you say.

right back at you

oy vey iz mir.

Attack?

Like you calling me a martian?

Actually, he compared you to a martian

well maybe

but still kinda rich for him to claim being attacked while he runs around saying people are from another planent.

Oh, don't get me wrong

I think he’s way over the top with this, and the “I played ball so I know better” crap is incredibly arrogant — and misguided.

LOL… at least i have solid basis for my opinion

No, you really don't

dont you recognize that line from bull durham?

does that make us bad fans too?

if we don’t get Bull Durham quotes?

no it makes you bad fans if you think that z’s role is to be a complete player…

we will win the division on his arm not bat

every player

in the National League is expected to be a complete player. That is why we we not have the DH. Every player bats.

please … are we expecting harden tto hit?

yes.

that’s why he bats.

Sometimes yeah

I’m expecting Harden to put together a decent AB where he doesn’t hurt the team doing whatever he’s capable of doing, whether thats sacrificing a runner over or hitting a bomb to CF…

It's been a while since I've seen it

if the worst you have been called is a martian,, you are having a good day..

you probably think dodge ball should be banned in school too

Why are you getting personal?

Seriously. Knock it off.

whos getting personal?

You

thanks for pointing that out.

you are redicluous

that line is from bull durham

i've never seen bull durham

sue me.

No, Allie you

Sue has a Hawkeye icon

Wow

maybe its YOUR funny thats broken.

LMAO

Bwa ha ha

ridiculous*

You are

You are calling people names, you are belittling other opinons and you are generally being rude.

the only people who are rude here are you guys who dont agree with tville and i so you attack

where have I attacked you or tville?

wait

it’s rude for us to DISAGREE with you???

"You guys"?

Go and read all the comments I’ve posted in this thread. Most of them have been stupid jokes in an attempt to diffuse the tension.

I really don’t know why you are taking this so personally.

you know maybe

since we are obviously not to your level of baseball expertise… you should call some of your major league buddies and ponder it with them.

what the heck

does dodge ball have to do with anything?

Besides, if Z was caught playing dodge ball, you’d have a coronary.

again a joke... no sense of humor from u

say someting

that’s actually funny, and I’ll laugh.

if your "humor" read any differently

from the other stuff you say we might recognize it.

I think a lot of it is the tone where this has already gone

It’s all coming across as serious

this
is
getting
hard
to
read

there's simply no reason

to criticize Z for playing to win.

Then why doesn't he?

!!!!

that’s precisely what legging out a bunt is DOING.

As he staggers......

………off the field, unable to continue.

Tell me, how does one win when one does not contribute?

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090503&content_id=4544434&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

he DID contribute.

“[Zambrano] laid down a perfect bunt, and he was motoring to first,” Piniella said. “That’s one of the reasons we scored four runs that inning.”

On Saturday, Piniella defended using Zambrano as a pinch-hitter, which he did in both Friday’s and Saturday’s games, because the team is shorthanded.

“What are we supposed to do?” Piniella said on Sunday. “He laid down a perfect bunt. He hurts his hamstring, but what can you do? I thought it was a really good play. The third baseman was giving him a base hit, and he dropped it down.”

He threw 5 decent innings

and score one of the runs from a grand slam.

how does that = contribution?

Huh??

I’m thoroughly confused. You’re saying that had Z hit a chopper to the SS, you would be fine with him busting it down the line. Yet by “forcing the situation” by laying down a bunt, his hustle is somehow not justified. Am I reading that right? That’s some awful logic if so.

kanderber - May 3, 2009 reply

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Read further to my Maddux comments below.

tville...

- notice you are the only one arguing this point right now

kodypuckett23 - May 3, 2009 reply

So?

If you could get all 30 MLB managers – or for that matter a dozen minor league ones – they’d be supporting my point as well.

1000% - true - to think other wise is idiotic

Q – would you rather have your all star pitcher make 35 starts or mess around pitch hitting and dragging bunts?

Hmmmmmmm…..

These are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, they’re done every day by players across the country without injury.

Piniella's postgame comments disagreed, if I heard correctly

So, maybe 29 managers. I doubt it, though.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO SAY PUBLICLY?

As a former player do you really expect Lou to call him out?

C’mon. No chance.

Why not?

He’s called out players before.

But this is a bit different.

I think to call Z out on this one would really question Z’s smarts, and I’ve not seen him challenge guys like that. Maybe he’s done it, but I’ve never seen him do it publicly.

He's commented when he thought decisions were questionable

Fontenot out at third last month in the 9th, IIRC

Apparently we're psychoanaylizing Z again

He couldn’t “handle” it if Lou called him out.

Noted, but..........

………..there’s more at play in this case then basic right/wrong. Lou feels the need to play this down because Z is involved.

so

you know Lou personally? Gonna get together after the game for a coupla brewskis? I know, you were introduced by reed’s johnson, who met Lou while playing an MLB charity game in Topeka.

If I said I do......

……..you wouldn’t believe me, so I won’t bite on your comments.

But earlier it was okay for you to know the ENTIRE CUBS TEAM because you’ve been all so sure that Z’s bunt fired up the squad.

once again

you can SEE how his bunt helped. The guy who pinch ran for him was knocked in by a grand slam home run. Thus, it was part of the game-winning rally.

Visible evidence is very helpful.

It got them a run....

…….but may have cost them an arm.

You do the math. In a game where they would have won by a run without “Z’s run”, would it be better to see The Shark trotting out for Zambrano’s remaining starts?

It’s all about risk and reward and you simply don’t want to acknowledge that point.

Just like you won’t acknowledge how you knew Z sparked the team rally. C’mon, give us the secret.

you don't know that they would have won without the bunt.

we DO know that they won the game WITH the bunt and WITHOUT his arm.

Remaining starts? Do you think you could scream Chicken Little a bit louder? They can’t hear you in Topeka.

Zambrano MAY miss ONE start. The results of the MRI aren’t back yet.

An MRI is not needed...........

……….to confirm the absurdity of his actions.

oboy.

you really are pinwheeling now.

Should we just forfit all runs..

… that may result in a player being injured?

Blah blah blah, pitchers vs fielders… you tell me the loss of Fukudome or Soriano right now wouldn’t result in as many W’s or L’s as Z’s injury. Should THEY not run hard?

We've fleshed out............

…….the apples-to-oranges comparison previously. Unfortunately it remains at the core of the discussion and apparently can’t be absorbed by some.

Goes both ways

then.

I've acknowleged the other side.

Repeatedly. Many here think it was a wise play. I disagree.

In fact, I’ve said, repeatedly, it is not a wise play – EVER – and supported it with valid points.

And I get in response ME BASEBALL PLAYER; ME HIT BALL; PLAY IN NL; EVEN PITCHER HIT BALL: ALL RUN HARD.

valid

that word doesn’t appear to mean what you think it does.

Please stop acting

like you know what Lou wants. You are just ridiculous.

With Drew knowing..........

……….what the players all feel, I thought I’d jump on the side of management.

If you have something meaningful to add, I’m all ears (or eyes in this case).

You also said

you know what his teammates were thinking too. Care to share how you know that as a fact?

Drew told me.

Yeah

It’d so be the first time he called out a player.

um

have you watched many of Lou’s post-game conferences? When he has a problem with a player, he doesn’t hesitate to talk about it. Many people noted how he spoke about his conversation with Milton Bradley — particularly, how Bradley was expected to leg out grounders.

what do u expect him to say

I like to say things that are 100%

impossible to prove as well.

For example, the people of Jupiter find me more attractive than most humans.

do you mean

that fewer humans find you attractive than Jupiterians, or you’re REALLY what they’re looking for? :P

Drew, I think that's "Jovians" . . . .

oh, sure

get all classist on me.

We usually call ourselves Floridians

and if you're from Tampa???

hope there's not a butcher around....

or you’ll have a bunch of bloody…..

Ah touche.

That explains why Venutians often criticize my sentence construction.

I think the Jovians think of me as Fabio…but smaller and more Irish.

At least they don't think you're Vanilla Ice

Ooooh

Aye, I lurve Teeny O’Fabio.

HEY....I'm from Jupiter!

nope - group think is not good

i like a pitcher that makes 35 dominant starts – not one that bunts for base hits

C'mon. Don't be silly.

We need BASEBALL PLAYERS, not pitchers!

Sometimes for a NL pitcher to have a

“dominant” start they have to help themselves by handling the bat. Whether thats getting on base for the big guns or getting a bunt down to move runners…

NAME ONE PLEASE

Tim Lincecum? SMOLTZ?

Santana won a tight game late last season by hitting a double to drive in a run

And in the National League when you have a spot in the lineup, you need to be able to do SOMETHING otherwise you don’t stay in the game very long.

Yolvani Gallardo (who has dominant stuff) won a game just last week by hitting a GW HR to break a score less tie.

Does no one see the difference............

………..in hitting a double or HR versus trying to leg out a bunt?

Z got on base

Doing what a guy with a bat in his hand is supposed to try to do.

Missed the point completely.

Okay

Where did I miss it?

Your first miss............

……….was that Zambrano had to leave the game all for the sake of trying to reach base.

But the bigger miss will come when he has to miss starts because of such foolishness.

+10000000000000

but lets get one run instead of make the next 5 starts

you play the game you're in

not the game in the future. Remember when Lou pulled Z in Game 1 of 07 to “save” him for Game 4, except there WAS no Game 4?

Yeah, I remember it too. I bet Lou does.

You play the game you’re in.

playoffs vs 162 game season… again you think small picture

Playoffs would be the biggest picture

right?

you play the game you're in.

You have to get to the playoffs.

I have an idea. Let’s keep Z cryogenically frozen until October so he’s in pristine condition.

I don't understand why you're so outraged

that a major league baseball player… got hurt playing baseball.

If he’d pulled a Harang and missed starts because of Guitar Hero, THEN be pissed off. But he tried to do the right thing.

And I hope he doesn’t miss any time… but if he does, I hope he comes back and plays just as hard.

i hope he doesnt hurt himself trying to be a hero in any hitting situation… he gets paid to pitch …if he doesnt pitch he is useless

do you really think we pay him to hit in any capacity?

I think we pay him to play

And his main job is pitching… but you stay in games in the NL by being able to add to the offense in a meaningful way.

again go ask ANY NL GM

you pay him to pitch …. that is IT!

AND he continues to pitch in a game when

he didn’t have his best stuff by being able to do SOMETHING with a bat.

when he doesnt have his best stuff he gets pulled and a pinch hitter comes up

arguing with you is like trying to explain a fungo to a martian

Out of curiousity...

Why would a martian have more difficulty understanding what a fungo is than anything else?

That's a good question

I would think the Martian would have more trouble with the balk rule.

Well

personally THIS martian has a bigger problem with Dick Stockton still getting announcing gigs while everyone else gets laid off.

But do you have an X-24 Space Modulator?

where is the giant KABOOM?

There’s supposed to be a giant KABOOM!

naw

infield fly rule. That sucker makes NO sense. :P

Almost went with that one

Now you're losing it, Allie.

ABSOLUTELY NO MANAGER KEEPS A PITCHER IN THE GAME IF HE’S THROWING POORLY, BUT MIGHT BE ABLE TO HAVE A GOOD AT-BAT.

That just doesn’t happen. Not on this planet.

Really?

So 6th inning. Trailing by 1. Tough pitcher on the mound for hypothetical other team. Tying run on 2nd. Your pitcher AB with a PC of 88. You can PH for him there and maybe get that run in and have to go to your pen for the rest of the game, or you can trust your pitcher to put the ball in play.

Which do you think most Managers do?

depends if the game is 1-0 2-1 3-2 -4-4 5-4-67-7-8

I don't think it does

its a 1 run game.

Does your pitcher’s ability on offense matter then? or do you burn him and go ’pen?

it sure does matter

4-3 and above he is gone likely

No it doesnt

He’s at 88 pitches. You could get another inning at least out of him or you could burn him b/c his offense ability doesn’t matter.

So nothing to add?

Randy Johnson.............

………is a career .125 hitter, but I suspect he was able to last late into ballgames because of his pitching ability.

I think we pay him to win games...

… and while pitching is the main way he can help, he’s a pretty darn good batter as well. Yesterday, he used a secondary tool to help win a game. The fact that ANYBODY is begrudging him for that is absurd. He HAPPENED to get hurt doing it. So be it. He, lou, and most of the rest of us wouldn’t have it any other way.

They second you stop working hard at ALL aspects of your job is the second you aren’t earning your paycheck. I’m damn good at using MS Excel, and i make documents my entire organization finds useful… should i stop using Photoshop as well, just outright refuse to do that part of my job, because its a smaller part of my job and all that clicking and all those shortcuts MIGHT give me carpel tunnel?

No. Use it all.

But would you endanger your Excel skills at the expense of handling Photoshop, something that is marginally important to your tasks?

That’s the point. Do what you can do, but don’t lose sight of your primary objective.

Zambrano’s prime objective is to pitch, but he couldn’t answer the bell in the 6th. Seems like he missed the point on doing his job properly.

again

you appear to be assuming that he went out of his way to get injured. That’s not the case. Usually, he makes that run just fine. Carlos Zambrano runs to first a LOT. He does it on defense, he does it on offense. He just happened to tweak himself this time. If he’d done it on a defensive play, would you be saying “wow, I wish he didn’t have to run to first?” Of course not.

If you can find any reference..........

……….of mine reflecting Z trying to get injured, I’ll buy you a beer – or a dozen.

Poor judgment is what’s being discussed here.

the poor judgement

of a batter trying to reach base?

Come ON.

So he should lean into pitches.........

……….especially when hitting from the left side?

That would be good judgment, if I ready you correctly.

he should play

to win. that means getting on base, pitching well, running well, hitting well.

Can you answer my question?

I have answered your question.

So you feel he should lean into a pitch?

That is the question.

Asked and answered.

Guess my ESP skills.......

…………are lacking.

Simple yes or no would suffice, but since your position is indefensible, you’re left to pathetic replies.

I know “uncle” when I hear it.

only because you're saying it.

You asked your question. I answered it. I’m certainly not surprised that you don’t like the answer.

Go getting on base.......

…….by leaning into a pitch is okay and something he should do.

Please confirm.

asked and answered

over and over again.

Like I said.........

…….I know uncle when I see it.

You really

should get your eyes checked then.

those are in frequent – name a pitcher in the last 30 yrs that has one a world series wit his hitting

won a world series?

you’re asking about thirty pitchers. At most. Give me a break. You have to GET THERE FIRST. You GET THERE by WINNING.

This is, in the end, a really stupid conversation. If he hadn’t gotten hurt, no one would be complaining. Except you, I suppose, because you worry when he doesn’t go 8 innings, and he hasn’t gone 8 innings since, I believe, last year during the no-hitter.

I know tickets stuff is supposed to go in the ticket exchange threads but...

…the comments are closed for the Ticket Exchanges: April 30-May 5 Homestand exchange thread. Al, can you re-open them?

And when comments are re-opened, I’ll be posting that I have at least 2 bleachers (maybe 3 or 4) available for the Tuesday afternoon game against the Giants. Trade for another game later this year or sell for $25 face (plus conv fee). I’ll also be posting that you can e-mail me at vangeloff (at) hotmail (dot) com. Or you can beat the rush and e-mail me now. I’m heading out for awhile but will respond to any takers late tonight.

And yes, I wore my Cubs hat again today (I’m 3-0) and will wear it again tomorrow, even though my Indians have lost two in a row. But Al says I have to take one for the team, so I will.

ballhawk - May 3, 2009 reply

I'll reopen the comments.

And keep that Cubs cap on!

Per ESPN

Zambrano was taken to hospital for MRI. Results will be known tomorrow.

What I don’t understand is why Lou came out, talked to the trainer, went back in, then took Z out and then sent Harden—who was as ready as my wife to enter the game—to pinch-run. Looked confusing.

chilango2 - May 3, 2009 reply

heh didn't want to use

an actual position player, since the bench is so thin.

On the other hand, he could have used Gathright, who is hitting worse than most of our pitchers, right now, with a batting average of .111, and and OPS+ of… -16.

pardon

not -16. -18.

Right

But did Lou think Z was OK? Whatever did O’Neil say to him? Why the confusion?

chilango2 - May 3, 2009 reply

P.S.

I was at the ballpark w/o convenient explanations from Pat or Len.

chilango2 - May 3, 2009 reply

word from len & bob

was that Z thought he was fine until he tried to lead off with the next pitch, and couldn’t get a good jump. You could see him motion to the dugout that he needed to come out of the game.

TC Cubby - May 3, 2009 reply

Unfortunately the radio............

…………was being broadcast by Dumb and Dumber, so ZERO information made its way out over the air waves. Thanks for the insight, TC.

Why the need to call names?

Listening to Judd Sirott can drive a person over the edge.

Name calling isn’t necessary but could we please just get a clear description of what is happening on the field?

If I called them by their given names...........

………..I’d still be calling them a name.

Look at you

Clever McSmartass.

Clearly more clever...........

……….than your witticism.

don't know.

Maybe O’Neil said “he says he’s ok”, and Lou wanted to make sure. Lou was going to leave him in, and then Z pulled himself after the next pitch.

Looked to me like Z thought he was really just fine

until he went to take his lead toward 2nd… then he felt like it was too much and said he should probably come out.

Thats just how it looked to me anyway.

San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - May 3, 2009 reply

I was also wondering why another pitcher comes

in to run, since there was the chance we were (now confirmed) about to lose a starter. Hell, just let Gaithwright rust, right???

We don't score there and you need more bench players who contribute

b/c its a tie game

problem is z has been fragile…. i wouldnt have run harden…

marquis was at least used to the role last year..plus he sucked at pitching

Fragile?

Z had shoulder tendinitis last year and occassionally issues with forearm cramping over a year ago… How the F does that equal fragile?

Good point.

Perhaps it will help clarify the entire situation for some.

I’m fairly certain Harden’s instructions were to run the bases. He was not supposed to be STEALING bases, but simply get station-to-station and watch the coaches.

Parallel this to the bunt-for-hit mentality. If Z can reach base by going through the regular steps of being a hitter, that’s great. That certainly helps the team.

But if a pitcher is reaching outside his bounds at the plate (a la trying to bunt for a hit), that’s not meeting his intended purpose in the game.

well said plus 1,000,000,000,000 for the CBO

bunting for a hit

is hitting. Hitting for a hit is hitting. When Fukudome tries to bunt for a hit, we applaud him. When Pie used to try to bunt for a hit, we applauded him. When Riot does it. When Fonty does it. When (ironically) Reed Johnson does it. Anyone remember that game last year? He was the last out of the ninth, and had he made it, who knows?

You play to win. The infield plays Z back, because they know he’s a pitcher who hits well. He faked them out, but good, and he got on base, and his bunt started the rally that won us the game.

This isn’t the AL. Our pitchers are expected to play on both sides of the plate.

Or in some rare cases, all three.

Why do you compare position players to pitchers?

You are doing yourself a tremendous disservice by attempting to draw such parallels.

he's a baseball player

he’s in the national league. Pitchers are expected to hit. Z does a very good job of it.

You are confusing the leagues...

… we are in the one where pitchers hit, too. And if they want that win, they are not only responsible for pitching, but for contributing 1/9th of the offense. If you wanna get pissy for Z hurting him self throwing a fit or tripping over his cat, so be it. He was doing his best to get the cubs a W, and believe it or not, did contribute.

Hindsight is 20/20, sure. We’d all prefer to take that run off the boards in exchange for a fully healthy Z. But if we’d lost by one, then what? Or if he’d not been injured, would you care? Rules dictate he comes to the plate. Common sense dictates he try his best while there.

Lou doesn't

trust him. We’ve seen it before. Also, it was rather early in the game; he can use a pitcher off the bench and not have to make a double-switch or lose that utility player.

Of the skull or hamstring

Clutche - May 3, 2009 reply

The MRI of Zambrano's skull.............

………..showed nothing.

nice.

how respectful of your ace pitcher.

Also I think people are reacting a bit much to taken to the hospital for an MRI.

They always MRI these things and where else would one get an MRI at the coffee shop?

I keep one

in the shed out back. For the dogs and the little woman. :p

I actually have a test results sheet of a brain scan taken when I was having extreme headaches in the 90s and they were checking for a brain tumor. I have a sheet of paper that says “Scan of cubstoseriesby100s reveals notnhing”

that's hard core

registering under your Cubs fan-blog user-name. :P

Especially since it was 15 years before I even heard of BCB.

By the way as fast as those headaches started they went away. Never found out why I was having them. Maybe watching the Cubs of that era made them.

I love Zambrano because he is a baseball player.

He loves the game and it shows. He brings enthusiasm every day. He was trying to help his team win. I, for one, will not be critical of a guy that gives 100 % every day. He was trying to get on base. This is not the American League.

Rick B - May 3, 2009 reply

+1

leothelip - May 3, 2009 reply

-1

his job is to pitch… that is it!!!!

if he is the dominant pitcher we paid for – we win… he does us know good if he legs out a bunt and then spends 15 days on the dl

Is he on the DL yet?

Not that I’ve heard. Jeez. WAIT UNTIL he’s shelved to worry about him being shelved.

That's actually incorrect,

The Cubs are in the National League.

know = no

I recall a while back a poll on "Most frustrating Cub"

For me it was an easy call-Big Z. He does not appear to play the game with his brain.

If the Cubs had a better bench and Z were not being used as a PH, he might not do stupid things like this. Who am I kidding? he’s always going to do stupid things like this.

Huh?

You realize Z was the starting pitcher today, right? This had nothing to do with him pinch hitting.

Z's repeated appearances at the plate..........

……….continue to fuel his ego as a hitter, leading him to believe he’s as gifted offensively as any other player in the ballpark.

And while I can accept Lou giving him the PH opportunities due to a short bench, this type of stuff really has to subside else Z will spin (further?) out of control.

Oh, for heaven's sake

This is ridiculous.

I didn’t realize you had a psychology degree.

Again — maybe some people have a point when they say Cubs fans are dumber than dirt.

Please

You can tell he’s immature. What with the way he tried to and succeeded in getting on base when he was up to bat. And then took himself out of the game when he realized he was hurt. The man is a menace.

Yes. Supposedly the Ace of the staff perceives that...

…he should beat out a bunt hit? At the very least it’s dumbass decision on his part. I went one step more and assigned motive as immature Z and his ego. It’s not a reach.

This is all great satire

but if it isn’t and you really mean it, I weep for you.

Deliver me from stupidity!

Of course it's a reach

You’re assigning motive to someone you’ve never met. It’s a special kind of arrogance to do that.

His job in that situation is to get on base. He played hard and did his job – we ought to be applauding him for that, not making rather mean assumptions about his psyche.

Thank you

I didn’t know there were so many Cubs fans who were armchair psychiatrists.

Really, his actions have been on Tv for how long now?

right...he should just go up there an flail at pitched balls like any other pitcher...

What’s he thinking? Pitchers can’t hit!

carmen_fanzone - May 3, 2009 reply

Actually, since he is a good hitter he should go up there to hit--not to leg out a bunt.

WE HAVE A WINNER!

chosing to bunt to hit

IS hitting.

And that's why they call it a bunt HIT!

And penguins can't fly

Wait, what?

If you read the rest of my post...

…you’ll see that I reached the conclusion that even eliminating Z’s PH fun times he’s still likely to do stupid things like this.

I don’t have nor need a psych degree to tell that Z is immature. His actions throughout his career speak for it.

you're (conveniently) forgetting

that in the prior innning he reacted calmly to Soto’s failure to get the tying runner out at the plate, something he might not have done in years past.

So, he stays under control to finish the inning, legs out a bunt single to start the game winning rally, and now he’s immature and selfish?

TC Cubby - May 3, 2009 reply

I am not forgetting that at all.

One doesn’t cancel out the other. Since he reacted well in one situation is he now permitted to start screaming his head off and losing his cool later?

and he did that?

wait — no, he didn’t. He caught the infield off guard by bunting, and got on base. When he figured out that he really WAS hurt, he took himself out of the game, right away.

THAT is a measured, reasonable response. No screaming. No losing his cool. I want THIS Zambrano to play EVERY start he gets.

Same here

+ Infinity

Who needs a psyc degree............

…………to figure out Carlos Zambrano? Are you kidding me? Have you watched this guy play over the last few years?

And besides, he overtly gloats about his offensive prowess in the media. What more do you need to know?

other then

you should be rooting for an AL team? One that treats it’s pitchers like the pretty-pretty princesses they are?

Cmon. This is the NATIONAL LEAGUE. Baseball is a game with NINE PLAYERS on a side. Pitchers are supposed to hit.

exactly

left coast cubbie - May 3, 2009 reply

That's correct but it isn't meaningful if you want to use the entire NL for your point.

The league in general, in overwhelming fashion, places no emphasis on pitchers having hitting skills. Z is the rare exception and he is a good hitter. I’d rather see him swing away than Gaithright any day and I’d rather see Z swing away than Z bunt.

Z's a damn good athlete

who enjoys doing his job… all of his job. On the mound and at the plate. Why on earth would that be something offensive?

It's not offensive to me.

But I think what he tried to do today was stupid baseball on his part, possibly from an inflated ego about his athletic ability.

Z's a good athlete

and he was safe.

So it was within his ability.

I think most people are just pissed at the fact he got hurt.

If he was didnt get hurt

No one would have mentioned this. But we know have to be obsessed with a single play and not be happy that they actually won 3 outta there last 4. B/c we have to keep fiinding things wrong with this team. Obviously that is this years theme.

And there are nits to pick...

but hustle shouldn’t be something you find so objectionable.

Exactly

Had he not run out it, and not gotta hurt I guess they would then complain about how this team isn’t competetive enough.

That's my biggest problem with this site sometimes

A lot of people are looking for reasons to complain. During the course of a season, there will be plenty of legitimate complaints. But complaining about something like this is downright stupid.

ok thats 3 times in one day

:)

Agreed

Why do you agree.........

………with people who call others names?

reading komprehenshun is gud.

He didn’t call you stupid. He called complaining about something like this stupid. There’s a difference.

I agreed with

his comment. He didn’t call anyone a name in that comment. Why do you use so many………….?

For some reason

a lot of people want to complain just to complain

+1

My God I feel so sorry for their families. I can’t imagine getting so upset over something you have no control over.

After I beat the wife and kids...........

………..I feel much better.

They weren’t around this weekend so I turned to BCB.

Meanwhile, curl up with your kitten and pull grammy’s blanket over tight. It will be over soon.

Don't have a kitten

and grammy has been dead for years.

here ya go, Sue

That cat better stop doing that soon, or it’s gonna pull a muscle.

his ego as a hitter?

hitting is part of his job description.

That's why he got such a big contract.

If his hitting has not been so good, Hendry would have never given him that much money.

And the flip side applies to Aaron Miles. Hendry had to overpay for him because he tossed a few good innings of relief last year for the Cards.

These agents never miss a trick.

why is it so hard for you to believe

that Zambrano is a hitter as well as a pitcher?

Cause apparently you can not be both

One has to far outweigh another.

I don't understand why some people

are so against a pitcher being a complete player?

It's a knee-jerk reaction

to Z getting hurt.

Like I said earlier, his shoulder problems last year gave me much more cause for concern than this does.

The thing I love about the Cubs’ starting pitching staff is that they think of themselves as complete ballplayers, not pitchers. Look at Lilly getting the two-run double Saturday. Look at Harden’s running ability. Look at Dempster’s bunting ability. And Marshall can swing the bat decently, too.

I love that.

There are lots of times when I disagree with you............

But on this point I’m 100% in agreement.

We don't always have to agree

but I respect a well-based, rational point of view. The stuff I see here about Z and this situation isn’t that.

Knee-jerk reaction?

I’ve posted here previously that Z should not be switch-hitting. Why on earth would he want to expose his right arm to the baseball?

Sorry. I forgot. BECAUSE HE"S A BASEBALL PLAYER!

see

that you don’t forget it again.

I'll remember each day..........

………..he spends on the DL.

The MRI results wont even be back till tomorrow. He MIGHT miss a start.

lol +200000000000000

You know, being nasty doesn't help you to make your point

and it definitely won’t convince someone over to your point of view.

Since suggesting basic principles..........

……….of the game hasn’t worked, I decided to stray to the dark side.

basic principles

like running out grounders? Like using small ball?

For the same reason.............

………..those same people don’t understand how intentionally bunting for a hit makes one a “complete player”.

The other 1/3 of Z's job is offense.

He tried to do it and tweaked a hammy.

God forbid a pitcher contribute to something OTHER than pitching apparently.

you are wrong

his job is to pitch… anything else is purely bonus

this isn't

the AL.

Are you suggesting the DH in the NL?

That happens

I’ll stop watching baseball and just hang out at the park to watch beer league softball.

Cheaper tickets.

So a full $30 million...........

……….of Z’s contract is attributed to his hitting skills?

Reed, it may be time for us to save our collective breaths on this one.

tville

i believe you played ball in college if i remember

Certainly long enough............

……….to realize nonsense when I read it.

they dont get it and wont

there you go again.

Did you ever

play against BlueMike?

Can't say, but.........

………….I’ve not initiated or leaned on remarks about my personal involvement in baseball.

then why are you wasting your time on us little people

shouldnt you be texting or calling your major league buddies and discussing this?

Or managing? :-)

because he insnt

insnt?

Why do you............

……….have to make fun of misspelled words?

Why do

you name call?

Where? When?

Um, idiot,

Dumb and Dumber come to mind?

It's not name calling per se........

……….but using descriptive terms to convey thoughts.

Obviously it’s effective.

It is name calling.

In your opinion.

a career

BA of .239 and 49 RBIs would like a word.

B.S. No one pays him a dime to hit.

thank you

Actuall, they have in the past

Zambrano has had contract clauses for winning the Silver Slugger Award. So technically, the Cubs paid him to hit.

Bill Potter - May 4, 2009 reply

except

that his contract is to be a baseball player for the Chicago National League Baseball Club.

In the National League, pitchers bat.

Therefore, he’s being paid to hit.

Yes, I am aware of that (Z was SP today).

My reference to him PH is when he has been used as a PH. With a player as apparently immature as Z it could feed his ego.

Speaking of using a brain...

its “stupid” to strain his hammy running to first? Smart people avoid those injuries? How? By not running hard? Ever?

Orval Overall - May 3, 2009 reply

If you think it's a good use of your ace, more power to you. He is paid to itch, not to run out bunt singles.

In fact, almost all NL pitchers approach hitting in a less than enthusiastic manner. All of the teams accept this “effort”.

He's paid to itch?

You’d think for 90 mil he’d buy some talcum so it wasn’t an issue anymore.

Would that be an "itchue"?

No thanks

:(

Aww

No frowny Badger!!

Figured even dumb jokes

would be better than the hostility that some are spreading

I was trying to continue your dumb joke

Say “itchue” outloud.

I would have expected "ghezhuendeit (sp?)" or something like that

Well

we were going for dumb jokes… Itch You? “no thanks”

seemed better to me.

I must be getting tired

If I am actually laughing @ badgers jokes

I can't believe I needed that explained

Apparently

My funny is broken.

I blame myself

I blame yourself too.

Touche!

Wait, we already discussed that . . . .

I blame you for what ever I can

hell even sometimes when I cant I still blame you. LOL

we don't have to.

And if you think that Harden, or Demp or Marshall or Lilly, for god’s sake, approach hitting less enthusiastically, then I don’t know what games you’re watching. They may not be as good at hitting as Z, but they damn well try their best, and run their hardest when they get contact on the ball.

I said it elsewhere

But I love the pitchers’ approach to hitting on this team. Is there another group of pitchers this capable with the bats? I know there are some other outstanding hitting pitchers (Owings, for one), but how about overall?

I missed a good

game today. So very happy for Derrek!!! Hope his hitting continues. Also glad for LBR too.

May has been kind to this team so far.

hi-yo

Sue!

Hey Drew!

Geo's still struggling but I think he is starting to come around. :)

he's making it to the warning track.

he’ll be over the wall soon enough.

That double was darn close to going out.

Yeah our guy

will get it together soon. Just happy to see others hitting well now.

Like I said........

2 days ago, I had a feeling. My Cubbies are about to take over their rightful spot. Damn the details on how they did it or do it. The Cubbie Win-O-Meter is now at 3(why Al hasn’t put this on the homepage is beyond me) and growing. Stop all the nonsense details and enjoy the ride to this….

2009 World Series Champions Chicago Cubs!!!

We will be Champions…..

cubsluver22 - May 3, 2009 reply

Z was simply doing his job.

A starting pitcher in the national league has 4 parts to their job, pitching, fielding, hitting/bunting and base running.

Pitchers used to be complete players but now most are treated like china dolls and are not allowed to develop their offensive game in the minor leagues.

Z is an all around player. He has taken the time and effort to develop his offensive skills so he can help his team win. That is what Z was doing today when he laid down a perfect bunt for a hit.

Personally, I think Z is the example of what a NL league pitcher should be. Why should he be criticized for simply doing his job?

I could understand criticism if he did something truly reckless like try to catch a ball barehanded or break a bat over his leg. In this situation, Z does not deserve criticism. He was simply doing what he has worked so hard learning to do, play baseball.

Today, the Cubs honored 2 pitchers that were complete players. I’d love to know what they thought of Z bunting.

I'm sure they'd be fine with it.

It’s not like he knew he would pull something on the play. If he hadn’t, all the posts would be about what a great bunt that was, and how about Z legging it out?

Frankly, I think the whole debate is kind of moot because to me (watching it back in replay and on DVR) it looked like he was favoring one leg all the way down the line, even at full speed, which means he probably pulled it coming out of the batter’s box. In this case, he could have walked down the line and still been injured.

Goodie1969 - May 3, 2009 reply

Come on goodie he made it his plan. He had it on his things to do today list.

Get up
brush teeth
wash face
have breakfast
drive to park
take BP
warm up
Pitch 5 innings giving up 2 runs
Strain hamstring in bottom of 5th legging out a bunt.

He planned the whole thing.

Impossible

He’s too dumb for that. Dumb and egotistical.

Greg Maddux

was the oldest pitcher to ever steal a base. Of course, we wouldn’t want Z to do that. He might get hurt!

Greg Maddux

Maddux finished his career with a .171 batting average and had 272 hits — “I’m a terrible hitter,” he once said — and 180 sacrifice bunts.

Sacrifice bunts.

Thanks for proving the point.

and he legged them all out.

you put the ball in play, and you run.

S A C R I F I C E B U N T S

I T M A K E S N O D I F F E R E N C E

you put the ball in play, and you run to first base as fast as you can. That’s the only way to play the game.

http://dodgers.fandome.com/video/1784/Sneaky-Sneaky-Maddux/

Greg Maddux

in this video, fakes a bunt and then gets an infield hit. It’s not the clearest video in the world, but you can see that he’s running very hard down the line.

You're kidding - right?

With a runner on first he was faking a SACRIFICE BUNT, and with the 3B pulled in, he tried to chop it down the line. The SS looked to 2B for a play and then had to hurriedly throw to first.

Great play by Maddux, no doubt, but he wasn’t going to the plate with the intent of bunting for a hit.

If only he were a true BASEBALL PLAYER!

doesn't that hurt your argument?

if it was a sacrifice, even less reason for running hard, since no one expects him to make it to first anyway

TC Cubby - May 3, 2009 reply

In my opinion...........

……….he wasn’t running hard – or better stated – at the type of speed needed to place his health in harm’s way.

he made the play he wanted to make

and he legged it out.

By advancing the runner, you mean.

That was his job in that at-bat. Please tell me you understand that.

I understand

that he put the ball in play and he ran as fast as he could to first base.

ME BASEBALL PLAYER

ME PLAY HARD

ME HIT BALL

ME HIT BALL HARD

ME RUN

ME RUN HARD

Can you cut the programmed responses to every question? It’s too bad the nuances of the game (which I took as somewhat fundamental) escape you.

the nuances of the game

that allow a pitcher to recognize that his hitting prowess forces the defense to move back on the infield when he’s hitting, thus allowed him to realize that if he lays down a bunt, he’s going to catch them off guard and on their heels, which might give him enough time to get on base?

How about the nuances that the scouting report mentioned that the guy playing third that day isn’t so hot at it, which means that a bunt down the third base line would be even more advantageous?

Those nuances? Or just the ones where you get to call him an idiot or absurd?

Finally I got you off the fence post.

Something beyond BASEBALL PLAYER is welcomed.

Thank you.

It doesn’t support your case because he didn’t get the 3B to make a play on the ball, which should have been the objective, but now it is something other than RUN HARD.

give it up

Zambrano is a ball player. He read the situation, made a decision, and got the base-runner on.

he did what real ball players are supposed to do. AL pitchers need not apply.

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/12/09/from-the-windup-greg-maddux-retires-as-the-greatest-pitcher-in/

Greg Maddux

You see, with Greg Maddux, pitching was only part of his job. His job wasn’t to pitch well, in his mind. It was to help his team win baseball games. Sure, his job on the hill had the most effect, but he wanted to run the bases well, get his bunts down, and field his position like a shortstop. It’s easier said than done, but he did it.

Read this page. It’s freaking amazing what he did. Now, I’m not saying that Zambrano is the next Maddux, because he’s not. But he’s just as fierce a competitor as Maddux.

Maddux - two of his offensive plays I remember well

Once, I’m at Wrigley in about 1990, and Maddux is pitching against his brother, Mike, who came in in relief. Maddux grounds out to second, and on his way back to the Cub dugout gives Mike a friendly slap on the fanny.

Second – Maddux is now on the Braves, probably about 1997, and I’m watching on TV with my wife. Maddux gets on base, and I say to her: Watch out, he’s been known to steal a base now and then. Sure enough, he takes off for second on the next pitch and slides in safely with a steal.

Maddux always ran hard on the bases, and stole a bunch, including (I think) one last year that made him the oldest pitcher in MLB history to steal a base.

I was in Cincinnati a few years back

When Maddux squared away to bunt, then pulled back and poked a hit over the drawn-in first baseman. I suppose Maddux could have blown out his knee running full-tilt to first base, but he didn’t.

Stuff like that is what makes him one of the most lead-pipe-cinch first-ballot HOFers in history, I suspect.

If he poked a ball over the drawn in 1B, I suspect..........

…………..the ball landed at the back of the infield dirt, or perhaps in short RF.

If that’s the case, there’s no one around to field the ball and perhaps no one at 1B covering the bag.

So why would Maddux have to run so hard?

Because you run hard to first base

why is this so foreign to you?

When was running hard to first base considered a health risk?

This has turned into a bizarre thread.

how could we understand this

since we’ve never played college ball. rolling my eyes

It seems we've been invaded tonight.

By intelligence.

At least as it relates to baseball.

if you say so.

every coach I’ve ever had or worked with stressed that you run to first base as fast as you can.

When you declare yourself right you've lost the argument.

Than explain what it is you find so objectionable about Z's play

that he’s a pitcher and he shouldn’t be doing it? Or do you have a reason beyond the fact Z is only a starting pitcher?

Because that argument holds no water with me and I’ve asked several times (rather politely, I thought) for you to explain WHY you’re so fired about this. And all I’ve gotten back is either snippyness or no response or the same answer again.

Snide remarks...........

………came at the behest of initial attacks.

If you don’t grasp the concept I’ve been espousing – and no, this is not an attack – then you’re not going to get it. I’ve typed ad nauseam about the subject, fully demonstrated the point, but if minds are not open to the idea, they will not be changed.

So you get pissed off instead of either

trying to explain your stance better or just walking away?

Great. Thanks. I’m so glad I tried to be nice. It was so worth it when you get nothing in return.

Dooood..........

………please read my dozens of entries on the topic.

Put down the cross and stop the martyr act. I’ve been trying to convey my point all along. Some people understand. Some don’t. What can I say?

Maybe it’s better explained over beers. Or coffee.

We understand your point.

We just don’t agree with it. Repeating it 100 times isn’t going to change things. It’s only your opinion and that doesn’t mean it’s right.

You are the first..........

………..to go so far as to say you UNDERSTAND.

Thank you.

I always understand

others opinions I just don’t always agree with them like I don’t agree with yours on Z.

+1

Pretty sure I never saw someone say they didnt understand, they just felt their opinion was right.

jkobus - May 4, 2009 reply

oh, for...

good gravy.

You do realize personal attack are not allowed on this site, don't you?

Why?

Because that’s what you do. You run out every hit, whether it’s an easy out, or easily safe.

chitownhawkeye - May 3, 2009 reply

Allow me to clarify.

Running “full-tilt” – and thus placing his health in jeopardy – should not have been necessary based on the play as described.

I know what you're saying

What I (and others) are saying is that Z looked at the defense and felt that his best way to help the team score runs, which is what he was doing at that point, was to try to bunt for a hit. Which he did. And he ran full-tilt to get on base, just like any player would.
He is paid to hit as well as pitch. And he’s pretty good at both. He wants the team to win and does what it takes to help the team do that. If this game was a blowout, he wouldn’t have done it. But it wasn’t. He was trying to help the team.

chitownhawkeye - May 3, 2009 reply

he helps the team most by making 35 starts

and what if he doesn't miss one

Then are you still going to huff and puff over how stupid he was?

ill be happy

and gotton your blood pressure up for nothing

you must be fun to live with.

I was watching that Padres game when Maddux stole a base last year

It was fantastic.

I loved watching Maddux pitch.

Take that back

I loved watching maddux PLAY. He did what he could everytime.

And thats why I love the NL.

Yes....

and he prepared himself (physically) for the season and gameday……he didn’t “pull” or “strain” anything in the “process”……

head in sand - small picture thinking

you're doing it again.

Ceremony

Ceremony was done so very well. The Cubs always do things like this well.

Fergie looked great. Greg looked great.

Anyone else notice Z tip his cap to them as they went by on the drive around?

Only thing I wondered is nothing against Jody Davis but him as the flag raiser?

Then I realized the 3 obvious ones are busy. Sandberg is managing at double A, Girardi is managing the Yankees and Grace is broadcasting. Dunston might have made a nice choice since they were kids together on the Cubs.

I thought Sandberg was at the game today...

Davis was the catcher when Maddux pitched his first couple seasons with the Cubs.

carmen_fanzone - May 3, 2009 reply

They mentioned Sandberg was absent due to managing Double A.

Davis does make sense but it would seem the others would have made more sense but they’re busy. Sutcliffe would have been another good choice but he’s busy too.

Damon Berryhill caught him more seasons than Girardi....

..but he’s managing in the minors.

carmen_fanzone - May 3, 2009 reply

and didn't hundley raise it for fergie?

so you had the catchers for both of the pitchers—at least for part of their time in chicago

billmurrayforowner - May 3, 2009 reply

Regarding Jody Davis

I have just one thing to say:

JoDEE! JoDEE! JoDEE!

On another note, there's a crazy game going on between the A's and Mariners.

The A’s scored 3 runs in the top of the 13th. The M’s scored 3 in the bottom of the 13th.

They’re going to the 14th.

Interesting.

I was going to turn this game on via EI, but they appear to have pulled the feed.

I think Matt Holliday must be having flashbacks

to the 22 inning marathon game the Rockies and Padres played last year.

I found it.

I was on the wrong channel. The Mariners just won on a bloop single with the bases loaded in the 15th.

The Mariners radio team are giddy!

What a crazy game!

He could have gotten hurt just as easily

legging out an infield single, or stretching a line drive into a double. Whats he supposed to do, jog lightly to first EVERY AT-BAT just to avoid this kind of injury? Or only the AB that turned out to be the one he got hurt on?

Orval Overall - May 3, 2009 reply

Right.

I’m sick of pitchers being treated like china dolls, in both their pitching and their hitting. The big contracts are what cause it. Neither the team nor the pitcher and his agent (in most cases, Z being something of an exception) want to over-extend, for fear of losing the chance of a big payday or (if you’re the team owner) losing your investment. So that’s why this whole pitch count thing got invented.

Listening to Fergie on TV today was instructive. He said Leo used to tell him, “You’re going all the way today. I’m resting the bullpen.” Fergie himself said he never wanted to come out of a 2-1 game after 7 innings because, “It’s my game to win.” The attitudes were different then, before these multi-million dollar contracts.

I like to think

Fergie would have been the same, had he been contracted for $90 mill. :D

Fergie was my very first favorite Cub

and he still is. Aside from the drug issue at the border back in the ‘70s, he’s led a life worth emulating. And he’s been through a lot of personal strife.

+1

danimal

kudos for a good reasonable comment.

San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - May 3, 2009 reply

By the way, a former Cub update

(some people would think this would be worth of a fan post!!)

Today, Chad Gaudin was kicked all over Chavez Ravine by the Dodgers in his second start for the Padres…..

good

i never thought he would amount to anything. watch him choke all year

cooltrev - May 3, 2009 reply

I am confused by all the BCB posters who want to slam ARam or Bradley for not running hard

when they know they have a bad wheel, but they are mad a Z for giving 100% when he has no known malady. Pitchers need strong legs and legs in great condition. If the hamstrings are not stretched and ready to go, they are of no value to the team. Z is an athlete who gives 100%. As others said here, Z could have just as easily hurt himself legging out a grounder or a double.

My bigger question is: with the Cubs getting so many leg tweaks, are they getting proper stretching and warm up exercises to do before their at bats? It seems that most of these leg injuries are happening at the plate. Maybe it it time to invest in a new trainer? The Bulls have always made this a priority and I think it has helped to keep ankle and leg injuries (and recovery times) to a minimum. Leg conditioning/stretching between games may be a cause for all these chronic/nagging injuries below the waist.

LAcarl519 - May 3, 2009 reply

I think Mark O'Neal

is considered to be pretty good at his job. Unlike a couple of Cubs trainers before him.

apparently

as players have bulked up and gotten more muscular, they’re more susceptible to pulls like this.

that is true

that with all the technology to make muscles bigger and stronger the connections (tendons, etc…) have not changed. of course that is one reason why there are so many Tommy John surgeries now

but this is also why stretching regimen and rehab work is so critical (and the discipline to do it on a regular basis)

LAcarl519 - May 3, 2009 reply

not even the same argument

paying brad & aram millions to hit and run bases

paying z millions to make 35 starts and pitch into the eigth

You have two jobs in baseball.

On defense, you get outs.

On offense, you avoid getting outs.

If you do those two things, you will win.

Z thought he could save an out. He was right.

Do you spend this much energy attacking outfielders who make diving catches?

apparently

we’re not supposed to compare pitchers to position players.

That's a shame.

What a waste to just concede an out every nine batters.

Never concede an out...........

……….unless a sacrifice is in order.

I’m not sure anyone is espousing the idea that Z – or any pitcher – should give up their AB.

However certain players have more value in some roles than others. An outfielder “dives” because that is part of his role and he is conditioned to do same. Other players are not drilled in the same aspects of the game because it is not inherent to their role.

If people here can’t recognize Z’s greater good to this club as a pitcher, and accept that role above all others, than there’s not much point in continuing the discussion.

I see the points of both.

tville and drewishdrewid are both right, which seems paradoxical, but there seems to be a bigger problem in all of this—why can these professional athletes not run without pulling something?

willie mays hayes' gloves - May 4, 2009 reply

Your argument hinges on a murky definition of what a pitcher should do.

What about running out a batter at first? That’s part of a pitcher’s job, right? So if he pulls a hammy then, it’s okay because it was in your job description for him?

If it’s a tie game and he’s on third, should he go for the close play at home? Of course not, he’s a pitcher.

How many games do we lose if he’s injured? Who knows. Maybe one. Maybe five. Maybe none. How many games do we lose if he doesn’t grind out close plays? Who knows. Maybe one. Maybe five. Maybe none. Arguing that his bunt won the game is pure speculations. So is arguing that it didn’t affect the game.

The fact is he did it and we won. The fact is he took himself out as soon as he realized he was hurt. Speculating on his motivation or his decision process is just that.

No one is advocating taking unnecessary risks. But you seem to think that a strained hamstring is the foregone conclusion of running out a bunt. I think that’s ridiculous. But I won’t call you an idiot for thinking it. Why don’t you try extending that favor to everyone else?

redward - May 4, 2009 reply

+1

The assumption that a pitcher is taking any more of a risk by running out a bunt than covering first is false. Explosion injuries like pulled hamstrings happen when a player over-extends. It can happen on a myriad of different plays. The notion that running to first is somehow inherently more dangerous than any other athletic movement is riduculous. As noted above, the question should be “Why are so many Cubs getting pulls?” Z could have just as easily do this as covering first on a close play. When you try to avoid injury, injuries sometimes happen more.

This comment should also be green

Especially:

The assumption that a pitcher is taking any more of a risk by running out a bunt than covering first is false. Explosion injuries like pulled hamstrings happen when a player over-extends. It can happen on a myriad of different plays. The notion that running to first is somehow inherently more dangerous than any other athletic movement is riduculous.

Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009 reply

rec'd

Well said redward

If no one is advocating taking unnecessary risks, then..........

…………why are so many folks thinking Z’s play was smart?

The injury was not a foregone conclusion, and I’ve never stated that, but his play creates the unnecessary risk you mention, the crux of my point all along.

By the way, aside from Z, I’ve not called too many others “idiots” in this post.

willie mays hayes' gloves - May 4, 2009 reply

Why not concede the out? He'a pitcher, right? He could get hit by the

pitch and go on the DL that way. Why not just stay in the dugout and concede the out? If we take your argument to it’s logical conclusion, the pitcher should never do anything that could risk him not being able to pitch. so just stay in the dugout and inform the umpire that you concede the out. The pitcher is getting paid to pitch, not bat. You don’t want to risk going on the DL by doing something that’s not related to pitching.

the pitcher

shouldn’t even move off the mound to field, really. And we better get a golf-cart to drive him from the dugout to the mound, because, lord knows, we don’t want him WALKING.

Or

Or they shouldn’t be able to do anything.

People should feed them. Can’t risk them poking themselves with a fork.

People should dress them. They might strain their fingers buttoning their shirt.

They should be driven to and from the park.

puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009 reply

to and from the park?

have you seen the statistics on hamstring injuries getting out of a car? No, we have to install a suite of bedrooms under the pitcher’s mound, Dollhouse style. The pitchers can stay in suspended hibernation till they’re ready to play, then rise up right out of the ground.

This is also advantageous because it allows us to keep them young forever.

Lol

give each of the 5 starting pitchers their own coffin in the hub and spokes format. This will allow for the proper dosing of anti psychotics and proper memory erasure. We will then load each pitcher with a new personality prior to their start. This is the optimal process for winning in the NL Central.

wax eagle - May 4, 2009 reply

Except for

Ted Lilly, who is always imprinted with his own personality. No other personality can imprint over it.

Next friday: Carlos Zambrano is imprinted with the personality of Ty Cobb. Will anyone be able to tell the difference?

wow drew, I guess you have subject

matter for the what I did on the weekend essay.

Anyway, if my son dreams of pitching in the bigs, should I have the coach remove him from the rundown drills and revamp who covers what base so my boy can practice standing on the mound?

Further, don’t pitchers run and lift weights on their off days, sprints and sh*t?

Having belittled the Yankees and their reaction to Joba’s injury last year, I can’t make a noise if an NL pitcher has an AB.

N Oakley - May 4, 2009 reply

the coach

should have him carried from bench to the mound by a herd of carpenter ants.

This will work LL through high school

with the metal bats and all, but what happens in rookie league when the ants drop him for the tasty ash and maple bats?

N Oakley - May 4, 2009 reply

by that time

they’re big enough that they need to be carried by turtles. Preferably on the backs of elephants.

Good TP Reference

wonder if Im the only one to catch it

wax eagle - May 4, 2009 reply

it's late in the day

for this thread.

But the Turtle Moves.

This might get me banned, but whatever.

Why are you even here?

Aren’t you a Rays fan now? Hahah, incredible. After their WS loss, it’s not surprising that someone who labeled themselves a “Cubs fan” would come crawling back here.

I swear to Christ, people like you are the reasons I hate categorizing myself as a Cubs fan. Retarded, useless, fucking retarded band wagon riders who will most likely change back to another team if the Cubs don’t make it to the playoffs/get a ring.

Congrats on the AL Champ Series

or should I say…congrats to myself… A Fan for 2 days and I am already in the ALCS!!

I love this team!

I hope you die of malaria.

NittanyCub - May 3, 2009 reply

Geesh...

That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think?

I endorse neither the name-calling

nor the wish to DOM, however…

scroll up to the top, and check out who the OP of that thread is.

OMG, this is hilarious

Not Bruce Froemming - May 4, 2009 reply

apparanetly you have no sense of humor

obviously tounge in cheek... nice comment on the end

Dude, way out of line.

This argument makes no sense at all.

It’s stupid to say Zambrano was wrong bunting for a base hit. He was trying to get on base in a tie game (which he did). He is in the lineup as a pitcher and as a hitter. Every pitcher is, but him especially. Besides, just as many position players on the Cubs are hurting themselves running to first base. Lee, Ramirez, and Bradley are just as valuable to this team. Should they not run when they hit the ball?

Hey Al

One minor detail – Z’s bunt was fielded by the pitcher Nolasco, not the third baseman.

dedfishflote - May 4, 2009 reply

Players just can't win

We bash Bradley over and over again for not running out a ground out when he was pinch hitting when he was not 100 %.

A healthy Z runs out a bunt and we bash him.

puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009 reply

not even the same

One simple question:

If Z starts to get a reputation for occasionally laying down a surprise bunt to get on base, won’t the corner infielders have to squeeze in a bit? It seems this will make it easier for Z to get more singles through the holes on the right and left side.

Isn’t that the goal in the long-run? To get on base more often? We don’t want Z just coming up to the plate and swinging for 5-run homers all the time. It seems like many on BCB want it both ways (“Z is a pitcher not a hitter,” yet many/most love it when he pinch-hits). Z is just trying to help this team in multiple ways. If he uses his speed to be an effective bunter it will open more holes for him as a hitter. What is the problem with this?

Sounds like good fundamental baseball to me.

LAcarl519 - May 4, 2009 reply

those would be

subtleties of the game. Zambrano is a pitcher, and apparently cannot appreciate them.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/sports/baseball/cubs/Carlos-Zambrano-Needs-To-Take-It-Easy.html

Z can't!

…or BCBers who don’t appreciate his knowledge of the game? ;-)

LAcarl519 - May 4, 2009 reply

oh, well

Some SPORTS writer agrees with you.

SO?

Reed.........

………..please ignore all items that support your position. They’re likely to be belittled by the omnipotent one.

did you read the comment on that post?

he’s not exactly a well respected writer.

OMnipotent, Joey! OMnipotent!

Oh, God, Ross . . . I’m sorry!

Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009 reply

LOL!!

But keep clinging on to your college baseball knowledge.

I'll see your rando in front of a computer, and raise you an article with quotes from Z and Lou:

Schwa - May 4, 2009 reply

I'm sure there are many images that can succinctly sum up this recap post...

…but here’s the one that keeps popping into my head. My compliments to the good Doctor…

ballhawk - May 4, 2009 reply

lol, pretty much sums it up