Everyone calmed down a little from last night's discussion? Good. Let's change the subject.
Yesterday's ceremony honoring Fergie Jenkins and Greg Maddux by retiring the #31 they both wore was the fifth such ceremony the Cubs have had since 1982. Six players and five numbers have been given this honor; that doesn't seem that many for the 77 years since the Cubs first put numbers on their backs on June 30, 1932, particularly since that includes four pennant seasons and quite a number of Hall of Famers.
So there are, the "day after", a couple of questions: should the Cubs have more retired numbers, honoring past greats? And who, if anyone, will be next, and when?
Let's look back, first. On March 31, 1954, the Cubs retired Phil Cavarretta's #44.
What? you're saying. #44 isn't retired. You're right, it's not. But the Chicago Tribune reported on April 1, 1954, that the Cubs had officially retired Cavarretta's number the previous day. Of course, that was right after he had told P. K. Wrigley that the 1954 Cubs would be a "second-division club" (he was right, they finished seventh and lost 90 games) and for his honesty, he was fired. Nevertheless, the Cubs probably would have gone ahead and kept #44 retired -- except that in May 1954, Cavvy signed and finished his career with the White Sox. It's my guess that Wrigley decided that he wasn't going to honor Cavarretta, who he must have seen as a turncoat, with the number retirement, so it was forgotten, and that may very well be why no Cub numbers were retired under the Wrigley regime. #44 was not reissued until 1971, when Burt Hooton, who had worn #44 at the University of Texas, asked for it when recalled to the major league Cubs. Clubhouse manager Yosh Kawano, who remembered the promise to retire #44, actually called Cavarretta and asked his permission to give it to Hooton, which was granted.
You could make legitimate arguments for retiring numbers to honor Gabby Hartnett and Billy Herman, who are Hall of Famers, and Stan Hack, the greatest Cub third baseman before Ron Santo, in addition to Cavarretta. But then, you might have to retire a number for Charlie Root, the greatest pitcher in Cubs history. And all of those players -- Cavarretta included -- wore more than one number. So what number would you choose for each one? And how would you honor the pre-1932 great Cubs, who wore no digits?
My suggestion would be to retire #44 for Cavarretta to honor all those who came before Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Fergie Jenkins and Billy Williams, the first generation of Cubs to have their uniform numbers retired. Cavarretta isn't a Hall of Famer, but he did play 20 years in a Cub uniform, played well, and was a key part of three pennant winners -- and, he is still living. He'll turn 93 in July. Plus, this list of players who have worn #44 since Burt Hooton isn't exactly stellar:
Mike Garman (1976), Dave Giusti (1977), Ken Reitz (1981), Dick Ruthven (1983-86), Drew Hall (1986-88), Steve Wilson (1989-91), Jeff Hartsock (1992), Bill Brennan (1993), Amaury Telemaco (1996-98), Chris Haney (1998), Tony Fossas (1998), Kyle Farnsworth (1999-2004), Roberto Novoa (2005-06), Chad Fox (2008)
Now, on to the future. Who might get this honor in years to come? The proverbial "elephant in the room" is Sammy Sosa. It is not my intention here to start or continue any arguments over whether Sammy deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. What I will say is that IF he gets in, I suspect the Cubs will reconcile with him and retire #21 for him. If he DOESN'T get in to the Hall within a few years of eligibility and it appears he isn't, the Cubs may eventually reconcile and do it anyway, though in that case it may take longer.
What about current Cubs? Carlos Zambrano is moving his way up the club leader lists; by the end of this year he'll be #6 on the all-time club strikeout list and, with one more win, he will have 100 lifetime victories. If he plays out his current contract and perhaps one more, he will have a chance to break Charlie Root's team record of 200 wins. Aramis Ramirez is also working his way up the team lists -- presuming he gets healthy and contributes, he will have more home runs at the end of this year than any Cub except Sosa, Banks, Williams, Santo, Ryne Sandberg and Gabby Hartnett. A lot of whether Z or A-Ram eventually will have #38 or #16 flags flying at Wrigley will depend on whether they can help lead the team to a World Series title.
Which, of course, is what we all hope for. Here's to big years from Z and A-Ram and the rest of the team, and to add a 2009 World Series banner to the other flags flying at Wrigley Field.
0 recs | 296 comments
Shouldnt we be saving 44 for Peavy?
Kidding of course
I wouldnt be surprised to see 38, 16 and even 12 up there someday, of course depending on how healthy those three remain throughout the rest of their careers….and maybe we can reserve whatever number Vitters is going to wear as well (fingers crossed)
bren - May 4, 2009
The other reason to retire #44 now for Cavarretta is...
… that the team had promised to do so over 50 years ago and reneged in a fit of pique. Time to right a wrong while the man is still living.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
#21 Will Be Retired
I’ll stick my neck out there and say #21 will eventually be retired for Sosa. I don’t expect this to happen before 2013. Sosa is the all-time Cubs leader in home runs, won an MVP, and played on 2 Cubs playoff teams. I don’t think any performance enhancing drug use by Sosa will ever be proven. I’ll go out on a limb and say Sosa will make amends with the Cubs organization.
memphiscub - May 4, 2009
That might take longer than 2013
I cant see that happening anytime soon, especially since its been handed out virtually every year since he left
bren - May 4, 2009
I think the Hall voting might play into this
It’ll be interesting to see how the perception of steroids and the admission of steroids will play out, especially now that Arod has been juicing all along.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Retiring numbers
I think we have many numbers that could be retired and it’s long overdue. But, if we start retiring all those who distinguished themselves in a Cubs uniform we may be left with “spring training” numbers for current players to wear. Is there another way to honor all the stars of early Cubs teams. Is there a Cubs Hall of Fame or another way to officially recognize many of those names in Al’s top 100 cubs? As we look in the past, we certainly have to look ahead. I agree that a Sosa, Zambrano, Ramirez and other possible future Cubs may be worthy. When a franchise is this old, this distinguished, we just can’t honor them all with a retired jersey. I think the much talked about Triangle Building may serve itself well to have an interactive hall of fame much like a “Cubs Cooperstown”. Leave the jerseys for MLB Hall of Fame members.
mrcubsfan - May 4, 2009
Well the Yankees have quite a few retired
And the only one with and odd looking number is Phil Hughes, 65, b/c he gave up 34 to Burnett. But youre right, at some point you can only retire so many numbers
bren - May 4, 2009
Right, but...
… the Cubs should have more than five to honor their long history. It doesn’t make sense to have zero retired numbers from an era when the team actually won pennants. That’s why retiring Cavarretta’s — which was supposed to have been done 55 years ago — would be the right thing to do, since he’s still alive to accept the honor.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
Agreed
If we are going to retire numbers, there has been more since 1877 than what we have.
mrcubsfan - May 4, 2009
+1
The Wrigleys were amazingly lax in this regard. Cubs from the past — pre 60’s, that is — should be honored.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - May 4, 2009
when did other organizations start retiring numbers?
TC Cubby - May 4, 2009
Three-Finger Flag?
I suppose the Cubs could fly a flag with “Three Finger” on it and the Cubs 1907-08 logo for Mordecai Brown.
memphiscub - May 4, 2009
When I first saw this....
I thought it said “The Finger Flag.”
They’d never let us do that.
Cool Hand - May 4, 2009
even a short Cubs career
any chance of Hawk having his? Guy won a MVP on a Cubs last place team. 5 time All Star, two gold gloves, 1 silver slugger asa Cub over a 6 year Cub career. His number #10 was retired for by Montreal.
I am not saying he deserves it over some others, just curious what people feel should be the criteria for recognition.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I would...
BUT… objectively, I can see the case not to. You could argue he was at his best for Montreal, and he did go on to play for other teams. Tough one.
Z and Ramirez are the leading candidates right now. Hard to see anyone else.
And yes, I retire Sosa’s number.
Worf - May 4, 2009
Would Soriano have 12 retired if he were to have 3-4 monster years?
Chanman25 - May 4, 2009
I guess we would really need to establish
the criteria for it, and then tweak as needed?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
A major contributing role in a championship would go a loooooong way
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
exactly
i can see the case for and against Dawson being retired. Sosa should be retired as well (unless they can come out with definitive evidence of using).
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I think a stronger case
can actually be made for Mark Grace than Andre Dawson, and I’m not sure Grace qualifies.
Worf - May 4, 2009
+1
I’m not sure Grace qualifies, either. Grace had almost all of his good seasons with the Cubs. He’s definitely not a Hall of Famer. To this point, Ron Santo isn’t in the Hall, either. I realize that the majority of Cubs fans feel Santo is deserving of induction. I feel the same way. I know the majority of Cubs fans would say Santo was a better player than Grace. I’m just making the point that there is a non-HoF member that has had his number retired by the Cubs. If #17 is retired, it would not be a first for a non-HoF member.
memphiscub - May 4, 2009
and Grace
did lead MLB in hits and doubles for en entire decade, all in Cubbie blue, which would help his case
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
perhaps hawk-colored glasses
maybe it’s my bias for my favorite of all-time, but who accomplished more in a Cubs uniform, Maddux or Dawson? I have no problem retiring Maddux, but I’d like to think that Dawson could make a strong case for contributing just as much, or more, when in a Cubs uniform…with a bonus for the ‘lore’ behind his coming here.
JCD - May 4, 2009
Well...Maddux will most likely go into the HoF as a Brave
but he damn well looked happy being a Cub yesterday..
Chanman25 - May 4, 2009
He *did* win a WS as a Brave
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I thought he looked incredibly uncomfortable.
He’s never been one for the spotlight and you could tell yesterday.
cubswynn - May 4, 2009
totally agree
that was really evident when they showed him in the box with his wife when she realized they were on tv. He didn’t seem to “thrilled”
But then again, he might have been just in some other world emotionally as he stated he didn’t realize how much he missed the game until that moment
heine41 - May 4, 2009
Fergie's A Cub, Not A Ranger
Fergie will forever be, IMO, the only pitcher in Rangers history to win 25 games in a season. He did that in 1974 and finished second in the Cy Young voting to Catfish Hunter. Jenkins also had another fine season with Texas after coming back from the Red Sox in 1978 going 18-8 with a 3.04 ERA. However, those six consecutive 20-win seasons (1967-1972) Chicago makes him more memorable with the Cubs than the Rangers. I remember how well Fergie pitched for the Cubs in 1982 going 14-15 with a 3.15 ERA, when the Cubs played well in the second half of the season to “win” next-to-last place over the Mets.
As far as Maddux goes, he led the Cubs in wins (19) and won the division clinching game in 1989. He won the Cy Young in 1992 with the Cubs. He had six 15+ win seasons in Chicago. I think Maddux did more with the Cubs than Fergie did with the Rangers. I can understand why the Cubs retired #31 for Maddux and why the Rangers haven’t retired Fergie’s number. To close, Maddux is thought of more as a Brave than a Cub because of that incredible run he had from 1992-1998. Only one of those seasons (1992) was with the Cubs.
memphiscub - May 4, 2009
Sosa is a no doubter
His number HAS to be retired eventually.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
agreed
Cubs and Hawks fan - May 4, 2009
Sosa
I wasn’t going to come out on this one but since you claim that he is a “no doubter”, I’ll throw up some points to the contrary. First, of course, is the steroid issue. Beyond that, to me, however, was his me first attitude. Sosa was a crappy teammate who felt like he was the show and let everyone know about it. His bailing out on his team at the end of his Cubs career was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I’m just saying that he is not a no doubter. These are the reasons that I, and I believe many associated with the Cubs during his tenure would use as reasons for not to retire his number.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
Did you enjoy the 98 season, let alone all those other awesome seasons from Sosa?
Shame on you, I say. Sosa is even more deserving of having his number retired as a Cub than Maddux.
I think a lot of things will change when we finally have new ownership/management. The trib and the org did everything they could to run Sosa out of town in 04, and I think we’ll see Sosa again once things have settled down a bit
berselius - May 4, 2009
Thats a bit strong, no?
This isnt the Hall of Fame, its not necessarily about numbers. Sosas off the field shenanigans couldve had a permanent negative impact on his standing with the Franchise, numbers not withstanding, resulting in his current pariah status.
I think, either way, its going to be a delayed process. A lot of dirt can be uncovered in the next few years which might make dmlichte’s point of view stronger
bren - May 4, 2009
Just curious, what off the field shenanigans are you talking about?
There’s the well-documented Sosa leaving early on the last day thing, but Sosa was well-loved by everyone until the tail end of the 04 season, when the media and everyone else just piled on to him.
He did tons of great stuff off the field as well that elevated the franchise to where it is today. I don’t think that the Cubs have the national following they have today without Sosa – WGN televised the games nationally but Sosa was the big draw. It’s unfair to Sosa to wipe out twelve years of good feelings over some mutual bad blood between Sosa and the franchise at the end of his career. If that’s the way most Cubs ‘fans’ feel, then I hope they DON’T retire Sosa’s number, because they don’t deserve him.
berselius - May 4, 2009
Sammy Sosa
is our Brett Farve
heine41 - May 4, 2009
The Cubs won a SUPER BOWL????
Where was I? I completely missed it!
Zeke - May 4, 2009
Grace also retired 5 times?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Yeah man! Superbowl XXXVIIII!@(*#!
I was meaning more in the light of how our “Franchise Icon” unceremoniously left, and now we’re in limbo
heine41 - May 4, 2009
there was a lot of off the field issues with Sosa
here is a link from a search with google that has a long list of his off field problems
http://www.angelfire.com/il2/cubssuck/shammy.htm
minus the steroid part (which is unproven) there is a lot of negatives in this.
I am not saying it is 100% accurate, so rip (the author of that link) away at your free will.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
The sports writers absolutely kill me
They seem so bitter and angry, and when they get players who blow them off, or refuse to talk to them, or whatever little injustice the writer perceives, they have this ability to paint a guy in a terrible light. And considering Sosa played in a time mostly before the internet or sites like this, the sports writers were the only connection fans had to players.
I think Sosa did some stupid stuff, but I don’t really trust Paul Sullivan or Phil Rogers or whoever else follows the Cubs, especially when I hear Sullivan talk. The guy just does not seem entirely credible.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Well
The alleged steroid use for one. Two, as soon as he left it was widely regarded that he was, for lack of a better word, a D!@k, and a self serving one at that. And, as you pointed out, he quit on his team.
Which leads me to my point that an individual team retiring a players number isnt all about numbers, now I think there might come a day when it does happen, but whos going to want to be the guy to make that call when a large portion of Cubs fans have a bad taste in their mouths when it comes to Sr. Sosa?
bren - May 4, 2009
pardon me...
… but you need to chill out.
Secondly I am not nor was I ever a Sosa fan. While everyone was loving his long home runs I was totally appalled by his selfish “me first” attitude. I wanted to vomit every time he came 3 days late to spring training and proclaimed his arrival and that the Cubs clubhouse was “his house”. Thats no way to be a teammate and that was evidenced by the fact that not only did a teammate take a bat to Sosa’s stereo, but every other teammate has shielded the guilty party.
I hope that the Cubs management doesn’t forget what a self absorbed monster he was.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
A Monster?
Really? I think you’re the one who needs to chill out.
tizzle - May 4, 2009
Well...
The steroid issue should be a non-issue. There’s zero proof that he did roids. There’s zero EVIDENCE that he did roids. There is a lot of incentive, both monetary and notoriety, for a journalist to break the “Sosa used roids, and I’ve got proof” story. Considering it’s been YEARS since this steroid fiasco hit the news, at what point do you finally realize that since no one has found ANYTHING on the guy, maybe he is clean?
As for him being a crappy teammate (I assume you’ve spend time in the locker room or talked with numerous ex-Cubs)… Sammy WAS the show.
Finally, interesting choice of words re: the last game of 2004. You say “bailing on his team” like he said “F you guys, I’m not playing” like Scottie Pippin did. When, in reality, he simply left a game early that he was not playing in after frustratingly pissing away the Wild Card the previous few days. Was it wrong? Yeah. Was it the big deal that Cubs management made it out to be? No, not at all.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
Honestly I think he was doing something but as time goes by I have decided I will be less and less surprised if it was ever proven he never did.
puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009
well...
… to you its a non issue and thats fine. Sosa’s sudden inability to speak English and his misterious $10,000 that disappeared in a hotel lobby is evidence enough for me.
I don’t want to get into it, but my point is that you claim that it is a no doubter. Thats not true. There are plenty of reasons to not retire his number and even if they do ultimately retire his number, those issues still exist.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
I hate when people talk about...
how he forgot how to speak English. That’s just a weak response. Could it be that considering it was his second language, and considering he was in a court of law, that he wanted to be sure that what he was saying was actually what he intended to say? I speak a little Spanish, but if I were on trial for something in a spanish speaking country, you’re damn right I’d want to be sure that I had a translator there.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
number one,
it wasn’t a court of law. More importantly, he could have had an interpreter present. However, I fault the hearing panel more than Sosa—it was the right idea for him not to give testimony in English. The panel should have been all over him to have an interpreter.
TC Cubby - May 4, 2009
he was under oath
so I agree about the court of law (here meaning under oath)
I also agree he should have had an interpreter present.
either way, no direct link to him and steroids have come to be. either he was not using, or is the best cheater ever when it comes to hiding the use.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
He was under oath
Any one of use would have refused to testify in any situation that could (or most likely would) incriminate us. But he was more or less forced into talking. Pleading the 5th would just make him guilty in the court of public opinion.
That was a lose-lose situation. The worst part was Congress wasting their time on a dog and pony show.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Blech, my above reply was for TC Cubby
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
I was confused about why you were
agreeing with me, yet saying it like we didnt agree LOL
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
its a weak response?
Please… the man never had problems speaking to throngs of reporters, in English. He was surrounded by maybe one of the largest media contingents in the history of sports during the home run race of 1998. He had NO problems speaking. But all of a sudden, with a hell of a lot fewer cameras and in a more quiet setting he can’t speak.
You can disagree and thats fine, but you’re statement that its a no doubter is just false. People have doubts and those doubts are valid. You’re allowed to counter those doubts, but they exist.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
Well, yeah, he spoke to reporters
But it’s not like he could be charged with perjury for something he said to reporters
berselius - May 4, 2009
Speaking to throngs of reporters...
Is just a tad bit different than speaking in front of the Unites Stated Senate, don’t you think? Come on.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
to be honest, no
I am not saying that speaking to Congress isn’t intimidating, but the man performed on the grandest stages and in the spotlight. He was inundated by a massive media throng. I believe that he had ample experience being put under the largest of spotlights.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
Well, you'd be wrong...
You aren’t speaking under oath and threat of perjury charges when you’re talking in front of the media. In front of the Senate, you are.
A slip of the tongue in front of the media could cost you bad publicity and be annoying. A slip of the tongue in front of Congress could potentially land you in jail.
Add to that the fact that Sosa is not very bright and prone to temper tantrums, and it makes a lot more sense to have a representative speak for him in the Senate hearing.
SouthernCub - May 4, 2009
agreed
a strike out of error at Wrigley Field does not get you possible jail time and a revoked work Visa
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
But it should, damn it!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
I agree
an error should result in 90 days probation
a strike out (batting) should result in 2000 hours of community service
hurting yourself running out a bunt when the defense is playing back should result in Chinese Water Torture
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Which now is basically drinking from the tap
outside of metropolitan areas in China…
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Don't forget the technical balk
after which the CIA gets to water-board you.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
being too scrappy?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
we're not going to agree on this...
… and thats fine. But Sosa isn’t some country rube brought to the big city, this is a man used to performing on the biggest stages in the world, well versed in PR and being under immense pressure. Its one thing to use representation, its another thing to all of a sudden lose your ability to speak a language.
dmlichte - May 4, 2009
You speak a little spanish
Sosa spoke more than a little english, and he knew the words: Did, you, ever, knowingly, take, use, steriods, performance enhancing, drugs, illegal, yes, no.
This is clear cut in my opinion
heine41 - May 4, 2009
Did he have the questions they were going to ask in advance? What if they asked followup questions?
berselius - May 4, 2009
What follow up question is there to did you ever use steriods?
Which is responded to with an honest yes or no answer?
heine41 - May 4, 2009
I'm only a law student, not yet a lawyer
But when you are sworn in before the Senate, you have the same burden as when you are testifying in a courtroom. You can be charged with perjury for what you say. And what difference does it make that he used a translator? One way or another, he denied using steriods.
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
being under oath
is the same in court as it is when sitting before Seante or Congress.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
He denied using extremely poorly
If I was 100% innocent, I would have had the foresight to have translators there in order to exclaim my innocence.
heine41 - May 4, 2009
Are you at IU Bloomington law school?
TC Cubby - May 4, 2009
I'm a Hoosier for undergrad
and University of Chicago for law school
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
well done
I graduated from IU law in 04. I still miss Bloomington, especially in the spring.
TC Cubby - May 4, 2009
I'm with you on the no proof and
calling out people for stating the crappy teammate argument as proven fact.
As for his me first attitude, we all saw that and from reports and former player interviews can reasonably infer that he probably was a piss poor teammate.
As for zero evidence, that’s not true. There is no factual evidence or smoking gun, but circumstancial evidence and hearsay are evidence. They may not be usable in a jury trial, but they are still evidence and those evidential factors paint Sammy in a pretty poor light.
Sammy inflated, developed leg injuries, converted from a speed/power/OBP guy to a power/RBI guy.
Just saying that zero evidence is a flawed statement.
N Oakley - May 4, 2009
I think his unselfish play in Texas helped a lot
A lot of this stuff is perception. I’m impressed by what he did in Texas, even if it wasn’t in Blue.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
read this once
here is a link from a search with google that has a long list of his off field problems
http://www.angelfire.com/il2/cubssuck/shammy.htm
minus the steroid part (which is unproven) there is a lot of negatives in this.
I am not saying it is 100% accurate, so rip (the author of that link) away at your free will.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Well...
It IS “the official site of Cubs hating” so whatever it says MUST be true…
kanderber - May 4, 2009
as I said
I am not guaranteeing it is 100% true, but the site does have many accurate dates of things Sosa did that does cast negatives on him,
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I'm not saying he had his problems with the Cubs
It was just nice to see that he possibly matured. I mean, every tv special, book, and movie I’ve ever seen or read is all about one character learning a lesson.
And tv is never wrong.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
i agree he did seem to mature
and do the right things as he got older. I was only answering a question from above, where it was asked what he did besides the boombox and walking out in 2004.
sadly, you want to know the negaitves about someone on your team, opposing teams will have it and readily available.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
No to Sosa
Sosa was poster child for steroids and a ridiculous one-man carnival act in Chicago. He will never get into the Hall of Fame and he will never be immortalized by the Cubs via retiring his number, statute, etc. Quite simply Sosa was emblematic with what went horribly wrong with baseball the last 20 years.
BLou - May 4, 2009
Sosa was poster child for steroids
can you prove he used it, without using “you know he did”
show me evidence
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Me forget how to spreak English before Congress
I’ll bet the ranch that Sammy Sosa never comes close to gaining entrance into the Hall, nor will he ever have the Cubs memoralize his tainted career in any fashion. Sam-ME Corky Steroid is GUILTY in the court of public opinion in the same way we all know what OJ Simpson did.
BLou - May 4, 2009
wow
this may be your most offensive post yet. Flagged.
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
I agree with you
not the bigot sentiment though
heine41 - May 4, 2009
horrible post
you have NO proof of anything with Sammy. Do we believe he did, sure, but without proof you cannot hang him for it.
Before Congress, Palmero got caught lying, and has since disappeared. He was guilty and busted. Big Mac refused to discuss anything in the past. Sammy played it safe by using his rights in US Court (Plea the 5th). Cannot blame Sammy for that.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
re: pleading the 5th
I can’t imagine many times where I wouldn’t plead the 5th. You have almost nothing to gain by opening your mouth when accused of a crime.
This is a little OT, but this video by a law professor is a fascinating look at why you should never speak to the police. I wish it was mandatory viewing in high school.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Poor form... REALLY poor form...
SouthernCub - May 4, 2009
If the team keeps retiring numbers...
they’re going to have to put the flags somewhere else. Those foul poles aren’t going to be big enough.
My vote, for what it’s worth (not much): I’d retire # 21, too.
Fraggin Judge - May 4, 2009
Just retire #16 now
You know it’s gonna happen – no need to wait.
/s
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Last night's post-game thread
read like a bad game thread. ech.
Emelie - May 4, 2009
I know
You’d have thought we lost.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I did lose...
…about an hour of my life last night. I just couldn’t stop reading the comments – it was the car wreck thread that wouldn’t die. I think I pulled a hamstring hitting the Z key so much…
ballhawk - May 4, 2009
Then you probably should have left that to someone who's conditioned to do it.
Your fault for taking unnecessary risks.
redward - May 4, 2009
Hee hee!
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
I went out to dinner after the game with friends who were in town and just checked the site didn’t post much.
Glad I missed it. In the light of day things look different.
puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009
I just wasted an hour reading it, what was I thinking?
I’ve never seen such garbage.
Schwa - May 4, 2009
If #12 is retired for Soriano...
…you realize of course, we’d have to re-do the order of the flags and put #12 on top. Soriano’s flag just wouldn’t fly as well in any other spot….
ballhawk - May 4, 2009
Ha!
I see what you are doing here and I laugh +10
heine41 - May 4, 2009
No On #42 for Sutter, #8 for Dawson, #46 for Lee Smith
I know #42 is retired for Jackie Robinson, but the Cardinals have retired #42 for both Sutter and Robinson. Had the Cubs won a World Series with Sutter, I would say the Cubs should retire #42 for Sutter. Of course, the Cubs didn’t come close to the playoffs with Sutter. I know that wasn’t Sutter’s fault, but I feel the main reason he went into the Hall of Fame as a Cardinal was the 1982 world championship in St. Louis. Dawson played longer with the Expos than he did with the Cubs. Lee Smith had his best seasons with St. Louis.
memphiscub - May 4, 2009
Instead of retiring #44, can we just burn it?
Farnsworth and Novoa from ‘99-’06… yikes.
Schwa - May 4, 2009
Maybe there's bad karma attached to the #44
because it was promised to be retired?
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
yeah,
we need another curse theory around here :)
TC Cubby - May 4, 2009
We may need another curse...
but we don’t need another curse to explain Farnsworth and Novoa’s problems.
aldimond - May 4, 2009
I think
that they should retire #21, but the reasons for me are mostly personal. Last year I read Jeff Pasan’s column on Yahoo! reflecting on the summer of 98 ten years later. The specter of steroids had only begun to appear that summer. However, reading that article I realized that the summer of 98 was the summer I truly fell in love with baseball.
I had followed the Orioles my entire childhood, staying up late listening to Fred Manfra on the radio, and occasionally making it to Camden Yards for a baseball game. But the summer of 98 was special.
For the first time my eyes were turned to the rest of baseball and Griffey, Sosa and McGuire chased the Babe towards their place in history. Passan said in his article last summer that these three men put baseball back on the map after the strike in 94. This was certainly true for me. I can remember reading the paper regularly to see if McGuire, Sosa or Griffey were still on pace to break the record.
Despite the other blemishes, I think for that summer alone Sosa should be immortalized both in the hall and by having his number retired. These three men, Sosa McGuire and Griffey, despite any suspicions of steroids truly changed baseball that summer and should be honored.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
+1
and rec’d.
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
I agree they should be immortalized
In the Steroids Era wing of the HOF
heine41 - May 4, 2009
then each era needs its own wing
Greenies, Spit Ball, etc
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Why not?
heine41 - May 4, 2009
personally I see no reason to group the Eras under their negatives
either you are in the HOF or not, and leave it there.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I see your point,
But when the hall is 300 years old, do we let kids idolize hall of famers McGwire, A Rod, and Sosa for their home run filled seasons/careers?
I would like to know if Ruth was on steroids putting up those numbers rather than hot dogs and beer
heine41 - May 4, 2009
The
blemish transcends the era, it will be a well known fact of the era in the hall of fame. however, it will be the same kind of well known fact as the dead ball era, or greenies, or spit balls. People cheated, they did not get caught and their accomplishments are things of record and merit.
Cheating alone did not give big Mac, Griffey and Sosa the home run numbers that they have. Barry Bonds had hundreds of home runs long before any accusation of steroids came into play.
The specter of steroids looms over the era, however I hope that the careers of these men, despite their own faults (admitted and not) can be recognized. Their careers entered the realm of the legendary as the specter descended. Yes they are suspect, but they are certainly not alone, should the entire era be precluded from number retirement or induction into the hall?
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
plus if we group players by the negative in their era
how many kids learn the bad about the sport, and lose interest. as they get older, the kids can learn about the idols. Kind of like Santa Claus.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
And where do you stop when pointing the finger?
Up until a month ago, just about everyone thought A-Rod was going to be the clean player to take back the homerun title. Now it turns out he juiced even more than Bonds. How long until we hear a rumor about Griffey?
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
how do yopu decide who to point at
Mitre and Neifi both tested positive. So the choices are to walk with the innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent.
I will take the innocent until stance, just so I am not walking around with a negative outlook on the sport I grew up loving (both watching and playing)
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I was just piling on
with you and wax eagle. I agree with your innocent till guilty stance.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Somewhat agree
I remember a year as a kid when Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs. It was a career year for him. As a kid I thought nothing of this masterpiece of a season. I realized a few years ago that he was probably on steroids at the time.
However, that acknowledgment, while disappointing did not change the magic that I still felt for that season. The revelation that any of the three giants from the summer of 98 were on steroids is disappointing, but still cannot mask the magic of that summer.
I love the the game first because of these players, they changed the face and feel of the game for me. There was more to baseball than what went on in Baltimore (thank heavens). I now love the game in spite of these players, they are at times a blessing and at times a blight, but they are still legends in my mind.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Well
I think I would rather my son look up to guys like McGwire and Sosa that Babe Ruth.
tizzle - May 4, 2009
true
plus it provides the opportunity as your kids grow up to talk about how even heroes make mistakes. Ultimately anyone that our kids look up to is going to let them down eventually. Let the downfall of our heroes be an object lesson.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Really?
I don’t see great character traits to emulate in McGwire or Sosa over Ruth.
If you really want your son to look up to someone for mashing home runs, why not skip McGwire, Sosa, and Ruth (needless to say, skip Bonds too), and go to the guy that probably should hold the all time home run record still today: Hank Aaron?
aldimond - May 4, 2009
Always a fine choice
Hank’s character is unimpeachable.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Oh man.
I idolize any player from the Hot Dogs and Beer Era.
Cool Hand - May 4, 2009
I'm big on booze and broads, too
Now if I only had the Babe’s swing…
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Yeah, no kidding.
Cool Hand - May 4, 2009
Was it flat?
Watching on TV, the cermony felt flat. Little emotion, especially from the crowd, maybe it felt different at the park? Seemed, from the TV shots, that there were many empty seats as well.
I wish they had separated the cermonies. Fergie yesterday (actually Fergie should have been right after HOF in 91) , and Maddux in a few weeks, and made it more special for each. Since there are only five retired numbers why try to cram both into one half hour?
The thing that will make it difficult to retire numbers in the future is that few players stay with one team for long periods anymore.
BatCubFan - May 4, 2009
I think you're right
I was at the Santo ceremony and the place was coming down, falling apart at the seams with emotion. Yesterday, it felt subdued. Of course, Ronnie is such a personality and wears his emotions on his sleeve. But Jenkins and Maddux are pillars of this organization and I felt as if people were a bit nonchalant about it.
Of course, people were still out drinking and what not when the ceremony began—albeit the bleachers were filled by then. But the grandstands were indeed subdued. I was cheering and whistling and all that stuff, but people around me were just doing their best golf clap.
Maddux never sought the limelight, and yesterday, being thrust upon it, I can understand him feeling uncomfortable. Jenkins looked ecstatic though.
chilango2 - May 4, 2009
from my prespective
both Fergie and Maddux were ready to be engaged and create a special moment, it was just not a reciprocal response from the fans. I was waiting for the Fergie, Fergi, Fergi, chant in the middle of his comments that would have stopped and choked him up – but it never came.
Still think they should have given each guy his own day.
BatCubFan - May 4, 2009
Remember also that when Santo's number was retired
it was the day after the Cubs clinched the division. That might explain some of the emotion, too.
Not Bruce Froemming - May 4, 2009
Maybe but
Listening to Ronnie talk about how the number retiring was his HoF, listening to to his voice crack. Well, I’ve never seen so many grown men (and women) tearing up.
I not ashamed to admit I was one of them.
chitownhawkeye - May 4, 2009
fact is
Ronnie’s been the voice of the Cubs and face of the Cubs for a long time. Fergie and Maddux were out of the public eye, Ron never was.
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
Z and Aram definitely if they have a ring or two and finish their careers as Cubs.
Dark horse candidate with a few more great years as a starter and finishing his career here is Dempster.
puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009
I would say Dempster has a 0.0005% chance of getting his number retired.
Schwa - May 4, 2009
So there's a chance!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Dempster
I couldn’t believe it but someone pointed out this is his 6th year with the team. Maybe because he didn’t start the 04 season until August 1st.
puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009
I think that if Demp has 5 good years as a starter
than that in combination with the service to the community could get him there.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Dawson vs Dempster
who would you give it to?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
At this point
Dawson (although I’m not too familiar with his career as a cub). However, if Dempster has a few more productive years as a Cubs starter I think that between service as a Cub and community service a case could be made. I think that a number being retired is as much about what a player does in the community during his career and after it as about what he does on the field.
If you are a top tier player and a community servant than you should be considered.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Dawson
5 time All Star, 1 MVP, Silver Slugger as a Cub
Dawson is also loved by Cub fans (not that Dempster is not loved, as we know he is)
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Id probably say yes
but i tend to err on the side of honoring more players than fewer. Be glad its not my decision or too many players would be wearing numbers in the 70s and 80s after I was done retiring all of the number of players i thought deserved it..
Of course the problem with my thought process is that it renders the honor meaningless….On that note I think that it might be good to pick a name or two a generation who defined the organization and honor them as cub of the decade and retire their number. Then it would be consistent and we wouldnt run out of numbers for a while.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Isn't this a no-brainer?
Not to slight Demp in anyway, but Dawsons contributions are pretty legendary.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I would agree
and he did it with some really shitty Cub teams at the time (plus no knees lol)
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Dempster?
Umm…Look at his #’s next to Jenkins and Maddux and then think about whether or not his # will be retired. It will not.
PurpleLineToWrigley - May 4, 2009
Never!
That’s when the Cubs will retire Dempster’s number. Not a chance in hell.
Itchy - May 4, 2009
Yeah
but how many players have a stop on the Red Line named after them?
LT - May 4, 2009
And Yellow and Purple!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Well, you asked...
Dempster is on the Purple Line. For the Red Line:
Del Howard, 1907-1909
Hack Wilson, 1926-1931
Addison Gumbert, (1888-1889, 1891-1892)
Billy North, 1971-1972
Mark Clark, 1997-1998
Steve Lake, 1983-1986, 1993
Craig Monroe, 2007
Randy Jackson, 1950-1955, 1959
(there are a few more with a few of these names, like Wilson, Clark, and Jackson. I tried to get the player that played the most for the Cubs with each name)
aldimond - May 4, 2009
22 should be retired....
so we never have to deal with that pain again
billmurrayforowner - May 4, 2009
Sosa's number
will eventually be retired someday, after that I could see them retiring Wood. Face of the franchise for a decade. Dawson also might be eligible for it as well. Z and Ramirez as Al said might be considered if they do the job and bring a world title to the north side.
Cubbinstrongsince86 - May 4, 2009
It's completely disingenuous to say that Wood was the face of the franchise
When Sosa was on the team. Like him or not, Sosa WAS the Chicago Cubs from 1996-2004
berselius - May 4, 2009
My mancrush for Kerry Wood lives on, but
no number should be retired for unfulfilled promise. #34 had the most raw talent and ability of any pitcher to come along since Maddux (IMO), but the injuries did not allow him to have the HOF career we expected.
The guy was by all accounts a great teammate and great fun to watch pitch as a starter and reliever.
Potential and wishful thinking does not deserve a number retired.
N Oakley - May 4, 2009
Only number left to retire is #23
Simple as that.
BLou - May 4, 2009
Um, it's already retired.
News flash.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
maybe he means for the Bears
in honor of Sean Gayle, or Jerry Azumah
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Bulls
Michael Jordan
DDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :-P
heine41 - May 4, 2009
Bulls retired 23
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Yes, they did
heine41 - May 4, 2009
Twice, no?
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
And I thought for awhile there
Hester was a lock to get 23 retired for the Bears.
neverAcquiesce - May 4, 2009
Where is the line drawn?
Human nature is to focus on the contemporary….
Do I see #21 eventually? Maybe. Dempster? No chance. Zambrano or Ramirez? Long way to go before even thinking about it. I just skimmed through this, but I’m almost shocked that no one suggested Wood (and no, his shouldn’t be, either).
Grace? No way. Dawson — maybe . . .but it’s a stretch, given how few years he was a Cub. In fact, I wouldn’t have given it to Maddux, just because the bulk of his best years were with the Braves – but I know that wouldn’t have gone over with the fan base.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Why no way on Grace?
kanderber - May 4, 2009
Why no way on Grace?
he only led MLB in hits and doubles over a decade as a Cub, that alone negates his chances
SARCASM!!!
I feel he deserves consideration, and again it all boils down to what people feel should be the criteria for retiring a number or not
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Gracie had a very good run with the Cubs,
and put up great batting stats for his era if he was a SS, 2B or CF.
He was never the prototypical power hitting 1B and I will blaspheme right now and say he may have stood out as a greater player than he was because of his willingness to give a great quote and that he stood out while playing on some pretty poor teams.
I loved #17, but yeah, I said it.
N Oakley - May 4, 2009
during his prime
he was up against Wally Joyner type of 1B. Many were hitting for average and doubles, not HRs IIRC.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
1988-2003
His prime was roughly – 89-00?
Over that time Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn, Jeff Bagwell, and Jason Giambi won MVP’s. I agree that his style compared with others, Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly to an extent, but even then first basemen usually exhibited more power than Gracie had.
My intent was not to trash Grace, but try to make my point that number retirement should be left for hall of fame types of players. Not just guys who had good careers, most of that with the Cubs.
The team needs its own hall of fame. A place to put a plaque and honor the guys who were faces of the franchise and were beloved by fans. This doesn’t need to include number retirement. A place where the Woods, Graces & can be honored.
N Oakley - May 4, 2009
A lot of clubs do this with museums in their parks
I always like to take a look at what other clubs think of their history and who they see fit to memorialize. Good way to kill time after BP, too.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I was not saying you were wrong
as I do agree with your thought process, I was jsut pointing out that there were 1B in that time who were not HR hitters. To me Grace was the best fielding 1B during that era (Shawon Dunston alone gives him more credit). That included with the doubles and hits thru the 90’s deseres him more thought as to if he deserves a retired number, recognition, or just a blurb in history so to speak.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
See also: My sig
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Grace was an above-average player with the Cubs, but again - where do you draw the line?
There are a dozen more deserving Cubs that most of us can list without thinking about it.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
That's quite the stretch...
You do realize that Grace had more hits than Santo and a very similar OPS as well, right? Not to mention around 50 fewer runs in 200 fewer games (don’t recall the exacts, I looked earlier). Grace was a very, very good hitter.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
and probably better fielding as well
Shawon Dunston will happily tell all of us that
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Ronnie won a few gold gloves in his day
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
I was not saying Ron was bad
jsut saying IMO Grace was better with the glove.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I know you weren't saying he was bad
But I disagree that Grace was better.
It’s likely subjective, anyway.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
I am right
trust me, I have been in baseball all my life and can give you a scouting perspective
SARCASM
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
lol
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
In a higher-offense era.
And he played more years. And he played a less-demanding position in the field.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
Okay...
122 OPS+ vs. 126 OPS+. Pretty similar.
And less demanding or not, both were very good defenders.
kanderber - May 4, 2009
I realize Al lists some above, but without looking at the post or stats
Caveretta
Hack
Pafko
Root
Hartnett
Anson (even though he was a racist SOB and they didn’t wear numbers)
Wilson (tenure similar to Dawson)
Cuyler
Passeau (?)
Brown (again, no #’s worn)
Chance (manager and player)
Kessinger
Beckert
Now, that list can be picked apart — some don’t belong, but a lot do. I put 0 time into researching it, and I’m only 36, so I’m too young to have seen even the 1960’s/1970’s Cubs that I listed.
I’m not trying to rip on Grace — once again — where do you draw the line??
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Brown had a number
#37
oops, not Brant Brown
SARCASM
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
OH, NOOOOOO!
:)
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
I agree
I think you’ve nailed it, I think Dawson is a maybe as well, even in his short time with the Cubs it was one heck of a time. And I also think that #31 really should have been retired sooner rather than later for Fergie, but obviously by the time he made it into the Hall Maddux was already playing. I used to have a stronger opinion about the Maddux / Fergie number retirement, I always felt that the honor should go to Fergie, but I guess it would have been a slight to have not included Maddux — even though his best years were with Atlanta for which he will wear their cap in the Hall.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I'm okay with seeing Maddux in a Braves cap in the HoF
The plaque will still read “Chicago Cubs” twice, though.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I have no issue with it
As I said his best years were with the Braves. But I think Cubs fans and management wanted those “best years” so bad that they chose to honor him anyway. Its cool, I just don’t want that to detract from the accomplishments of Fergie.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I feel that number retirements should be reserved...
For individuals who made a difference or left an impact with their clubs, rather than just people who compile numbers over a career. Let those people go into the hall of fame, and be immortalized there.
The numbers we have retired as Cubs are all individuals whom have made impact both on and off the field, most of whom are still faces in our organization.
Not that I’m advocating, or think it WILL happen, but I would say #34 is more deserving than #21. Arm injuries aside, Kerry was ALWAYS a class act, he and his wife were heavily involved in the community, he gave us many great memories on the field, was apart of 4 playoff teams.
DESPITE being injury prone, he left a legacy with the Cubs that will always be around. I know it will be weird for me to see someone else wearing #34 on the back of their uniform.
I might be just too young to remember, but other than belting out homers (allegedly while on steroids) and being a solitary bright spot on some really bad Cubs teams, that is the only things Sosa left, along with a stain of a not so gracious departure regardless of whose fault it was.
heine41 - May 4, 2009
agreed, I could never see anyone wearing 34 again
but that may change in 10 years….
Chanman25 - May 4, 2009
There's no way Kerry Wood's number gets retired.
He’s one of my favorite players and I thought they should have kept him for non-sentimental reasons. But he is gone, and his production here doesn’t rate a number retirement.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
Agreed. If you retired numbers for intangibles,
I’d be first in line demanding that #12 be retired for hustle.
No one hustled more than Shawon Dunston. No one.
Should he get a retired number? Absolutely not!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Another Dunston intangible
the Shawn-O-Meter. That, along with the hustle and once being featured in the Rifleman series of Score baseball cards should be enough.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
Sure. Come to think of it, there was a Shawon-O-Meter in the HOF and one in the Smithsonian
That DEMANDS a retired number!
/sarcasm
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Well, if we extrapolate the thought
and a Shawn-O-Meter is in the HOF, by proxy, so too is Shawon Dunston. Therefore, Dunston is a Hall of Famer. As such, his number must be retired.
Glad we solved that.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
Excellent. Up next, what to do with the Big 3!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
fly a flad on the RF pole
SHAWN-O-METER
no number, just that statement is enough
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
It has to have a number
Career batting average?
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Have to get rid of the "And Rising!" part, then
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Could be a digital display
Showing flag elevation, wind speed, etc.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
MPH on throws from the hole to 1B?
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
Yeah, that's better than mine
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
larger number
errors Grace saved Dunston
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
BTW I agree with you
The “/sarcasm” is just in case….
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
I'm following you.
but it’s nice to throw in there, in case people really want to debate the merits of Dunston.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
Indeed
Once Dempster got nominated . . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Here's a way for Dempster to make it
Should he pitch well for the Cubs over the next 5-7 years (and winning a World Series). Then, replace Santo in the booth and become a beloved figure for the Cubs, helping to cultivate the next generation of Cubs fans.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
That might do it.
If he pitched like that for 5-7 years, he’d have over 100 wins as a Cub and a (hopefully) a ring.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
If he does it for 15, he's in!
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Dempster == Moyer??
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Oh, if only he was LH!
Especially if Lou sticks around . . . .
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Forgot
Any lefty with a pulse can pitch until its no longer there..Just not true for righties…Demp is out of luck.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
he can always have that surgery
Peavy wanted according to Al earlier this season
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
To make himself
left handed? or indestructible?
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
left handed
and he will be trained to NEVER bunt for safety
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Can we
create a deadpool like pitcher from spare parts in the rotation?
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Only lefty arm is Cotts'
No thanks.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
And I need to learn to read
Rotation != bullpen
I’ll blame it on flu-like symptoms.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
there's something I've never thought of before.
is it possible to have a swtich-pitcher? Has there ever been a pro who could pitch with either arm? Or are such ambidextrous freaks turned into left-handed pitchers as soon as possible?
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
There have been
Greg Harris (who did it for the Expos), and then check this out from a Single-A game last year, when a switch-pitcher met a switch-hitter.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
How
does that work with the glove?? cant see the video but boy that looks interesting.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
The glove has 6 fingers, IIRC
so this way, there would be two slots for the thumb, so the glove could be held on either hand.
Bill Potter - May 4, 2009
awesome.
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
Al got it right when he mentioned Charlie Root
Most wins for the Cubs.
Most innings pitched.
Most games started.
Second in strikeouts.
Charlie Root should not be forgotten for what he did on the field. And there’s so much to learn about him behind the scenes from daughter, Della, 90, at rootforthecubs.com, the first biography of Charlie Root.
rasnell - May 4, 2009
And there it is
Nice way to weave a plug into the thread.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
You're getting on Charlie Root's 90 year old daughter for spamming?
JohnM - May 4, 2009
No
I made a mistake, thats what I get for commenting on BCB and my knitting and crocheting blog at the same time.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
It was my understanding that the Cubs
have a policy of only retiring the numbers of players in the Hall of Fame.
Is that still correct?
If this is correct, I would doubt any other numbers will be retired until they are elected to the Hall of Fame. At this point, Sosa is a big question mark and we will simply have to wait to see how the BBWA votes when he becomes eligible.
They made an exception for Ron Santo due to his service to the organization as a player and broadcaster.
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
Hmmm
Maddux will be a HOFer but is not yet…so I guess that policy has been revoked.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
or an exception, since Fergie is
and they share the number. Having done a retirement ceremony for #31 twice would have been silly
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Yeah I guess
But I would think the Santo retirement pretty much botched up a policy of only retiring HOFers.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
Zing
Santowned
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
That's was my assumption.
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
to continue my 'campaign' for the Hawk
With this in mind, when he finally gets in to the HOF in the next couple years, do the Cubs honor him by retiring 8? Does it change the argument for doing it even though it doesn’t add any years of service or homers to his Cubs stats?
JCD - May 4, 2009
Sammy Sosa deserves to have his number retired
1998 was a magical summer, and the reason I love the Cubs. People around my age (21) grew up watch Sosa destroy the ball for years. He always made it worth it to go to a Cubs game even if the team wasn’t very good. For me growing up there was nothing cooler than seeing Sosa crank one and do his huge hop.
Lost behind Barry Bonds 2001 season was Sosa’s. It was perhaps the greatest single season offensive performance for a Chicago Cub ever. 64 homers 160 RBI .437 OBP 1.174 OPS.
Don’t forget that Sammy was a 30-30 guy before he became a huge slugger. The way he left the team shouldn’t be held against him forever. Cub fans around my age grew up watching Sosa dominate, and I think most of us will always have a soft spot for him. Sammy is the reason I love the Cubs, he is most likely the reason a lot of people first started to like the Cubs. He should be rewarded for what he did for this city and this team.
nji232 - May 4, 2009
just curious
what if it is retired, and then 5 years later they directly link him to steroids with no doubt of his guilt. Is it unretired, or do we just run with it?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
I would say run with it
While I can say there is no proof until I’m blue in the face, I know Sosa used steroids, I just think he was smarter than everyone else and didn’t leave a paper trail.
nji232 - May 4, 2009
which is scary to think
Sosa the smartest one of the group
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
very very scary
Kind of sad that he was one of the few to understand that paying in cash means money is hard to trace and there aren’t receipts around for investigators to find.
nji232 - May 4, 2009
So
now everyone thinks he’s dumb too?
tizzle - May 4, 2009
was not saying he is dumb
but he is not the brightest I would think
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
What
would make you think that? You don’t even know the guy.
tizzle - May 5, 2009
I wonder what the distribution of good/ill will toward Sosa is based on age
I think a lot of 20-somethings really like Sosa. As a 20-something myself, I typically find it hard to care about guys like Ferguson Jenkins. I wonder if the older fans feel similar to Sosa.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Look at Fergie's numbers and you may change your mind
The man could pitch.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I'm not doubting his numbers
I never saw him play. Or any other player before 1990. I don’t care because his stats to me are nothing more than a historical footnote to me.
I was able to witness Sosa’s homeruns, and now I remember them for being a game-changing shot or an interesting run at a record, as opposed to just statistical history.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
You don't care?
Seriously? Interesting, I always thought the beauty of baseball was the historical record which can link us to players from the past. Sure you have a personal connection to events that unfolded before your eyes — but to write of players from times past seems a little weird. Surely as a Cubs fan you are interested in the history of the team you follow? I’m not trying to call you out or anything, just trying to understand how you can consider a remarkable career by a former Cub to be a “historical footnote”?
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
meant to say
To write off players from times past.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I agree with the good dr
The constant discussion of players I never saw play gets a little boring after a while. Maybe as time goes by I will have a backlog of players I remember, but I can’t really bring myself to care about the Cubs of the 1940’s
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
I guess thats the other cool thing
about baseball, fans can choose how interested they want to be in their teams and teams history. I personnally enjoy reading about players from the past, and of course the discussion on this blog related to such players. But I can see if it didn’t interest you, that it could get boring.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
don't get me wrong
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade. My big hobbies are surfing and playing bridge, and tons of people think those are boring.
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
do you play bridge while surfing?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
it does say
surfing and playing bridge. One could assume they’d be doing both at the same time.
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
that
would make both of those things way more interesting.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
surfing what?
surfing the web, water, the ads in the Sunday paper?
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
surfing in the Pacific Ocean
duh ;)
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
It's interesting
In the same way that U.S. history is interesting. I guess that’s the best analogy I can come up with.
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
Fair enuff
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
Fergie
pithed a complete game in close to half his starts to begin with (with a 4 man rotation) clocking over 300 innings numerous times. He was a workhorse, and was a pitcher who walked few.
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
As a 20 something
Fergie far surpasses anything I could feel for Sosa. Fergie was solid, and a great teammate. In addition, he loves the association he has with the Cubs and the fans.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
In addition...
When he’s called in to sing the 7th inning stretch, I think he sings mostly in tune. or at least much closer than most people. I think Ernie Banks was pretty close when he did it too. So, being 25 myself, I can find something to appreciate in the current performance of Cubs legends.
aldimond - May 4, 2009
Just playing devils advocate
But it seems alot of comments in favor of a Sosa number retirement, start off discussing how “Magical” the 1998 season was. It seems like some fans want the number retired simply because they enjoyed watching Sammy during that season. Sounds kinda selfish to me, I think the argument for Sosa would be the numbers he put up with the Cubs including the 2001 season you reference. Growing up we all had our favorite players, or players in a season that made baseball fun to watch — but that doesn’t mean they need their number retired.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I don't even like his 1998 season as much as 2001
granted I was a bit older so I remember 2001 better. I think the reason Sosa is more than just a favorite player growing up is that he made a huge impact on the game. Sure people loved a guy like Grace or Dawson, or other guys, but they never made the impact on baseball that Sosa did. Heck I think beside Maddux, Sosa has been the most impactful Cub (on a national level) ever to play.
nji232 - May 4, 2009
Thats a fair assessment
Sosa did have an impact on a national level (Heck even international to some degree). I’m not sure how I feel about a number being retired for him, I guess I will have to wait and see if that day comes. I think you and others have made a valid argument, we’ll have to see what management plans on doing about it. I suspect that if he had a chance its more likely with ownership changing hands.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
I don't know about number retirement
but as a 25 year old, Sosa is my first favorite Cub, and really got me into baseball. Watching him made me go from casual fan to hardcore Cubs follower.
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
And I have fond memories of him as well
But I really do not want the great times I had watching him to be the primary reason for voting for his number to be retired.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
Personally, I feel betrayed
now that I know what ws REALLY going on during that time period, particularly the home run chase in 1998.
I don’t appreciate being lied to and that is what was going on.
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
Rose colored glasses
I personally choose to remember the chase with fond memories. At the very least I remember how excited I was about the accomplishments that these men were achieving. I did not understand at the time time what was going on.
Now that I do understand what was happening i am certainly disappointed. However, the potential to feel that excitement again is still there. Rather than be bitter about the fact that we were lied to can we enjoy the thrill of knowing that baseball can captivate our imaginations and hearts for an entire season with something like this.
I hope that this is the year of the stolen base. Pedroia’s steal of home and a five and six stolen base game in a matter of just a week. This could be a magical period for the stolen base. Perhaps we could even see a resurgence of huge base stealing numbers. Perhaps we can see a guy like Crawford challenge Coleman and shoot for a 100 steals in a year.
I do not know who will be the next guy to chase a great single season or career record, but I do know that I will watch to see who will do it. Its a great feeling to watch once in a lifetime performances.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Pedroia?
You mean Jacoby Ellsbury right?
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
yeah sorry
wrong red sox youngin…
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
But it all was fake, a lie, a fraud.
They took something that was so joyful at the time and turned it into something ugly.
That’s just how I feel about this, being lied to is something I take personally.
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
I understand your perspective.
I can definitely relate to what you are feeling. Its a tough time to be a baseball fan, for those of who are in our early 20s we have seen a great many of our baseball idols crashing down at our feet. Its the kind of disappointment that drives people away from the game.
wax eagle - May 4, 2009
Exactly.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
Compromise on Wood
I don’t think the number should be retired and have the same place of honor next to Maddux, Fergie, etc… Potential and achievement should not be rewarded equally.
But the 20 strikeout game should be honored somehow.
The Cardinals put a “70” near the spot where McGwire’s 70th homer went over the fence. I think some kind of “20K — KW” or something similar would be appropriate.
Years from now. Maybe the 25th anniversary.
Worf - May 4, 2009
I'm still hoping
that Wood will rejoin the Cubs before he retires.
HoosierFan - May 4, 2009
When the Indians start tanking
I know where we can get a utility/bench guy that plays multiple positions…
dr stabbingworth - May 4, 2009
In my case
I want that but only if there is absolutly no gas in the tank (or seemingly). Then he can be like those baseball movies (you know pick one, the Rookie, the Natural, etc..) where the “old man” still has a little left. After a tear-jerking performance on the mound he tips his cap as he walks off the field, and each fan has time for a solioquy to reflect on his contributions.
Oh wait a minute — this isn’t the movies.
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
See Right Field Roof Top
There is a flag: “KW-20”
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
StevenABQ - May 4, 2009
Never mind then...
I didn’t know it was there. I don’t get to Wrigley very often.
I think that’s all Wood needs.
Carry on.
Worf - May 4, 2009
They already have a mini-flag for him on top of the stadium
I’m sure Zambrano’s no-hitter will also get one of those mini red or blue flags.
nji232 - May 4, 2009
There Are Definitely More Players Who Deserve It
I’m not sure exactly how to honor guys who never wore numbers (the triangle building, if it ever exists, is one good possibility), but I think the Cubs are WAY behind the curve on this. Their conservatism can be pretty maddening (this goes back a long way— they were the last team to add numbers to the uniform), but it looks like they’ve turned a corner (even if it seems like it’s partially for marketing purposes). If you look at the Yankees or Celtics, they have a ton more retired numbers, and I think we should catch up. I personally think the criteria should be a mix of statistical achievement, longevity, and how beloved the player was while he played here. For me, Phil Cavarretta, Mark Grace, Kerry Wood, Cap Anson, Frank Chance, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Hack Wilson, Kiki Cuyler, Mordecai Brown, and maybe Buck O’Neil and Leo Durocher all deserve serious consideration.
Gamecock - May 4, 2009
Numbers
I see #7 for DeRosa being retired and possibly #2 for Theriot.
McRipper - May 4, 2009
Winner and rec'd
Best post of the thread
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
He forgot #13 for Neifi.
Al Yellon - May 4, 2009
You know, we should remember Neifi.
He is an example of everything that was wrong with the Cubs for so many years and reminds us of how bad things were for so long.
It makes you appreciate the last few years.
Hopefully, if we remember the bad years, those same mistakes won’t be repeated.
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
#12
for Dunston/Soriano/Baker
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
sometimes
the best way to be an example is to be an example of what not to do. :P
drewishdrewid - May 4, 2009
agreed
cowsarecool220 - May 4, 2009
do as I say, not as i do
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Oh, guys like Neifi should get plaques
to document their place in Cub history.
Just make them small and affix over the drain in a urinal so their fans and admirers can editorialize.
N Oakley - May 4, 2009
Joint ceremony with Turk?
After all, he brought awareness of good oral hygiene to the Cubs.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Maybe 25 should be retired for Tuffy Rhodes
because of the lasting impact he has had on Japanese baseball.
PurpleLineToWrigley - May 4, 2009
I think #4 should be for Don Zimmer
Seeing as how 75% of Cubdom thought he was the greatest manager ever until 2003.
Shanghai Badger - May 4, 2009
Hahaha agreed!
PurpleLineToWrigley - May 4, 2009
#4 is a strong canidate
thanks to Blauser
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Blogger ATLMalcontent had a good story the other day involving Blauser
Link (NSFW language)
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
I can't believe nobody's said it
But what about the #6 FOR MICAH HOFFPAUIR. And they should definitely do it in 2029 on the 29th day of the month because he is a 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!
puckishcubsfan - May 4, 2009
Sosa?
I don’t think the path to either the HOF or to having his Cub uniform # retired will be the same for Sosa as it was for Jenkins. Jenkins was linked with some drug thing that may have delayed his getting into the HOF by a few years. I don’t think they ever linked drugs to impacting or improving Jenkins’ performance on the field though. (Somebody please correct me if I am wrong about the sequence here.)
Jenkins coached some and has represented the Cubs for a while now. I assume he has been compensated for this and has had a good enough relationship with the organization. He deserved to have his # retired because he was a dominant pitcher in his era, had his best years with the Cubs, and was with the Cubs longer than any other team. Funny how the background of some pictures of Jenkins show the empty seats common during the years he played.
Sosa’s “fate” is going to rest more with how public opinion links steriod use with cheating and how requiring the public is about ever having hard evidence. I do think the chances of his # being retired would improve if he ever gets into the Hall, but the relationship with the organization would have to somehow materialize without door knocking from Sosa. I think that aspect is important. Sosa attracted fans, acknowledged their importance. With or without a flag, he will be a part of Cubs lore for a long long time.
The players from the 30’s and 40’s and before, who represented the franchise like the players whose flags are already hung, should be acknowledged likewise. It wouldn’t have the marketing bang, but it wouldn’t hurt either. So, why not?
AboutTheCubs - May 4, 2009
Fergie was busted for carrying 3 grams of cocaine through customs in Toronto in 1980
He claimed to be carrying it for some of his (unnamed) teammates. He admitted to marijuana usage in his younger life, but was insistent that the cocaine was not his.
This didn’t matter to then-Commissioner Bowie Kuhn, who suspended him indefinitely from Major League Baseball. He was reinstated after the end of the 1980 season and went on to retire from Major League Baseball in 1983. The cocaine incident probably kept him from being a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but he was enshrined in 1991, after only three years of eligibility.
Clutch16 - May 4, 2009
Bowie Kuhn, who suspended him indefinitely from Major
would love to see his thoughts on the steroid suspension in place now
Cubbie-Tim - May 4, 2009
Thanks, Clutch16
AboutTheCubs - May 4, 2009
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