Since the Cubs were probably singin' the blues all the way to Detroit last night, where their plane landed about 1:20 AM Eastern time, a few pop culture references won't hurt here, right?
In 1978, the Cubs managed to stay in contention (they were only 3.5 games out of first place in the NL East as late as September 3) despite having one of the least powerful offenses in modern memory. They hit only 72 home runs -- and only Dave Kingman, who had 28 in his first year with the team, hit more than nine (Bobby Murcer was second on the team with that total, after having hit 27 the year before). Still, they somehow managed to score 664 runs, which ranked fifth in the National League.
One wit (and if I could remember who, I'd give him credit) dubbed it the "Rush Street offense" -- i.e., "lots of singles, no action".
Without fear of contradiction, I can call last night's 2-0 Cubs loss to the Braves exactly that, since the Cubs put ten singles on the board and drew three walks. One of the 13 baserunners was erased on a double play, leaving 12. The Cubs left RISP in the first (after the double play!), sixth, seventh and ninth innings. Someone else will no doubt look this up, but I cannot remember the last time the Cubs -- or for that matter, any team -- had ten hits in a game and got shut out.
This all wasted yet another fine effort from Ryan Dempster, who left the game with two out in the 7th having thrown a somewhat-alarmingly high total of 118 pitches. A walk got him in trouble in the 3rd; that resulted in the Braves' first run, the only one they needed.
Lou decided to rest both Alfonso Soriano and Milton Bradley last night. Whether having them in the lineup would have made any difference is something we can discuss endlessly, but Bradley did pinch-hit in the 9th inning and struck out. Pinch-hitter is a role Bradley isn't, apparently, well-suited for. In his career, Milton is now 3-for-26 (all singles -- there's that single thing again) with eight walks as a PH. Incidentally, Milton is one of 32 former Montreal Expos who have played at least one game in the major leagues this year (so is Ted Lilly, in case you didn't know. Hat tip to Chuck Hildebrandt for the list which he posted on a SABR mailing list to which I subscribe).
And so is Javier Vazquez, Atlanta's starter last night, who has been much better over the course of his career in the National League (not including last night's game, career ERA in the NL: 4.15, in the AL: 4.52). He kept getting into trouble with all the singles, yet kept finding ways to get out of trouble as well. The White Sox may eventually get some value out of that deal with Tyler Flowers, who is an excellent prospect, but for now, advantage Atlanta.
Speaking of deals, the wasted detour to Atlanta once again shows that even after Aramis Ramirez returns (which may or may not happen soon, depending on who you ask, Lou or A-Ram), this team needs another bat. Ryan Freel, on a rehab assignment, isn't the answer. In addition to a certain Cleveland Indian, targets might include Mark Teahen of the Royals, and since the Diamondbacks may soon be sellers, what about Chad Tracy (presuming he's healthy)?
Onward to Detroit, for the Cubs' first appearance there since 2001, and the Cubs' first DH games of the season.
0 recs | 448 comments
Tehan would be awesome
He can play a good third, can fill in at second, and play the outfield. I think he plays first too.
It would probably cost us too much though.
Also the Aramis article in the tribune is very interesting. First Lou and Aramis have different opinions it sounds like. Second there is this quote about resting Ryan Theriot once Aramis comes back.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
I don't see Theriot benched, just rested occasionally.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Yeah thats what I got out of it
Just thought it was telling that Lou mentioned Blanco as part of the season plans instead of other middle infielders.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
That is the bigger story there. To me it tells me Blanco is Sticking with the team...
Wonder what they are going to do? Almost seems like Freel may not come back.
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
I thought I read something over the weekend where Freel said
That he wasn’t coming back anytime soon after he talked to somebody on the Cubs. I’ll see if I can find it.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
I guess then, they would send Fox back down when
Rami is ready to come back?
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
Here is the article about Freel
Sounds like a man who knows he isn’t coming back soon.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
Thanks...
He sounds as if he and the organization are ready to move on.
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
That is one strange interview.
Not paying any attention to the Cubs? Not since vietnam?
One odd dude.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
If he's not interested, good riddance
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
I see why teams have dumped him
He had an issue in Baltimore this season, and now he is mad at the Cubs. Ryan Freel- you aren’t that good, thats why you are rotting in AAA.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
I never thought he was a good fit here.
Good riddance is right.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
it's not like
they even gave him a chance.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I'm pretty sure, Al, that you suggested the Cubs
trade for him in one of the threads.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
No way.
If true, it was years ago when he was actually good.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Ryan Freel is going to find himself out of baseball
with that kind of atitude. Players with declining skills and bad attitudes don’t get many job offers in professional baseball. Organizations don’t want players with that a negative attitude around their major league team and also don’t want it around their young players in the minors.
It sounds like his comments may be purposeful in wanting to be released. Freel may get his wish but find out no other team is willing to take on his attitude.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
The Cubs did, however, after similar comments had filtered through the Baltimore media
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
And Freel has continued to show
that he burns bridges wherever he goes. The Cubs swapped one unwanted player for another, I suspect hoping his atitude might change if Freel played on a winning team, something I don’t think he’s ever done in his career.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
I'm not sure
I take away the same impression. He was hired and told he’d get a chance to play. Now true, he injures himself almost immediately, but then when he rehabs, he’s essentially told “we got other guys who are going to play instead of you.” I can see how that would upset him…
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
None of us can be sure exactly what was said.
But you can be sure that after Freel went public with his complaints, he’s probably played his last game as a Cub.
No great loss.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Especially considering his Cedeno-esque showings
dr stabbingworth - June 23, 2009
if he knows Blanco is better at shorstop
why isn’t he playing him there now? Is Lou the only person in Chicago that doesn’t understand that both Theriot and Blanco are playing out of position?
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
I think the implied parenthetical statement is
(to rest Theriot).
When Rami comes back, Fonty goes to second, and Blanco becomes the backup. It’s silly, but the politics of MLB make it happen that way.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
The interesting part is that it implies that Blanco is the backup - not Miles...
The question because what becomes of Miles? Is he relegated to pinch-hitting duty? Is he the RH portion of a platoon with Fontenot at 2B (this is what I suspect)?
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
look
I was already grumpy enough, do you have to exacerbate it? :P
In a good world, Blanco is the platoon for Fonty AND the backup SS.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
Blanco doesn't make sense as a Fontenot platoon though...
They both bat LH.
Now, if Blanco starts switch-hitting again, maybe it’s a discussion.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
yeah, I know.
Maybe Freel becomes Fonty’s platoon?
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I don't see that happening either...
Freel and Miles are basically the same thing when talking about 2B options, and Miles has the big contract. I think Freel’s ship sailed when the team discovered Scales and Fox as potential options. I’ll be surprised if he returns.
As long as the 40-man roster stays as is, if Fontenot is going to be platooned (and I think we’re nearing that point with him), I think it’s going to be with Miles.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
weeps
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I'll always love Freel
He helped us unload Gaithright.
Allie - June 23, 2009
And two guys for the price of one
That’s a bargain!
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
yet neither
can hit.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
and came over here as a gathright who's injured all the time
not sure what he helped us do
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
Apparently
Blanco’s glove at SS would be fantastic…
Allie - June 23, 2009
It was a pretty dull game
I got lots of reading in while sitting in front of the TV.
carolinacub - June 23, 2009
Yeah that was about as blah a game as there was
Cubs didn’t want to be there either.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
I was at the game
I had fantastic seats. But, it was dull baseball for the most part. There were some good moments for the Cubs, though.
Woodstock - June 23, 2009
I'm really frustrating when
you take some of these LOB’s, turn them into RBI’s, and see how many games we’ve lost because we just can’t get that runner in. That being said hopefully it was just a one night relapse and we can get back on the right track at Detroit.
Fonzie2178 - June 23, 2009
*I'm = It's
Fonzie2178 - June 23, 2009
unfortunately, Detroit's pitching staff is not one I'd hope to try and get healthy against
That entire rotation is just dealing right now
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
Ours aren't chopped liver
Allie - June 23, 2009
no, but that isn't the point
we’re hoping that the offense will come around against one of the best pitching staffs in the American League, and that’s not a good thing.
I think you can agree our problem has been wasting great outings by our starting staff, my worry is we’ll see more of that considering how good the pitching staff we’re going against is
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
If by "come around"
we agree it’s “score 2 runs consistently” then no. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
2 early runs last night and we probably win b/c Lou brings in the better relievers.
Allie - June 23, 2009
I don't even understand what your point is
of course 2 early runs and we probably win. But we didn’t score two early runs. We didn’t score ANY runs.
Scoring two runs consistently isn’t going to win many games
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
With all the baserunners we're getting,
I’d like to see more small ball. Manufactured runs. We get runners on and then K or fly out a LOT. I’m not the manager by any means but I’d just like to see them get those RBI’s. I guess it wouldn’t be so frustrating if the opportunities weren’t there waiting. I’m just trying to stay positive. I know Detroit has a hot pitching staff right now but that doesn’t mean we can’t cool them off (right…?)
Fonzie2178 - June 23, 2009
I would too, but that's obviously not the approach Lou is going to take
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
I know... it looks like
most of them are swinging frantically for the fence as soon as somebody gets on base. A bunt sign here or there would be nice, wouldn’t it? Even just a compact swing to drive one over the infielders’ heads would be an improvement. Seems like all the patience at the plate that paid off so well last year is nowhere to be found once we get some RISP’s.
Fonzie2178 - June 23, 2009
Blanco
has laid down some bunts. Riot laid one down on Sunday.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
And that's good,
I did say it looked like most of them were swinging out of their shoes. Maybe some of the big money guys can get a lesson from (dare I say) the scrappy players. lol
Fonzie2178 - June 23, 2009
Chad Tracy
I’ve always liked him, but he hasn’t really hit since his knee problems. I think he’d be worth a flyer, and he’d be cheap $$$ wise if not necessarily in trade cost.
DGU - June 23, 2009
Tracy got off to a hot start this year...
… then fizzled. Don’t know if/when he got hurt again, but he is currently on the DL.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Milton Bradley got a day off...
Don’t have time to look through previous threads to see if anyone else noticed this.
But besides Aramis Ramirez, Bradley has had more time off than any alleged started on the roster. He should be playing, and producing.
I’m really starting to hate that guy.
Reddevil - June 23, 2009
He got a day off
After playing in several in a row and on a quick turnaround.
Really, do not understand the hostility on THAT. If he only misses that game, its not a bad thing.
Allie - June 23, 2009
It's a real shame there's not an official sarcasm font
Or is it?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
It is a shame.
But I sincerely dislike MB. I call it the “LaTroy Effect.”
Reddevil - June 23, 2009
Please explain
I’m intrigued.
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Here's my best shot at an honest explanation:
First, I’ll concede that some of my disdain isn’t really Milton Bradley’s fault. For instance:
- Hindsight on Hendry’s decision to sign Bradly as the left-handed RF bat hurts when one considers that Abreu, Ibanez, Dunn, et al. were available… that hurts. They all were better options (although Dunn may be arguable).
Second, I’ll concede there may be an element of irrationality at play.
- But truth is, MB played poorly to start the year, and I didn’t have much patience for him.
Finally, there are reasons that are both rational and no one’s fault but MIlton’s
- His well-documented attitude. Maybe his teammates have his back, but the truth is the guy should know how to deal with the media. He doesn’t. The guy should know how to deal with the umps. He doesn’t. And his mouth creates plenty of problems for himself, and more importantly for his team. It got him suspended, and there’s no way the umps can like the guy. Sure the umps are pros and probably don’t let a personal opinion of a player change a call… but it certainly can’t be a proverbial wind at his back. This team needs fewer problems and enemies… not more.
- His injuries. I’m sure being a pro ballplayer is hard on a body. I also don’t care. Cal Ripken made less money than Milton Bradley, and he seemed to be able to play pretty consistently. And I’m not even looking for an iron man… But for the money Hendry allotted, I would prefer more dependability and consistency.
None of this is new info. And I can respect people that have more patience with the guy than I do.
But the fact remains… he’s my least favorite Cub since LaTroy.
Reddevil - June 23, 2009
he has missed fewer games
than Rami has played. Just to put it in perspective.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
Choooo chooooo!
Com’on drew, I know you wanna hop on. : – 0
dtpollitt - June 23, 2009
nope.
My ticket is for a different train.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
The Fox Express?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
the BIG BLUE TRAIN!
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I despise Thomas.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
not HIM!
Oh, Dan Plesac. How soon they forget.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I can probably get you a ride
On the Pink Pig.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Dome and Bradley
need to start hitting, Yes Bradley is starting to hit some, but still in the .240’s. Dome just looks like it is August 2008 all over. He looks bad at the plate.
Frustrating game that is all you can say.
Grockcubs - June 23, 2009
Bradley HAS started hitting...
Have you been paying attention?? In his last 20 games, his OPS is 841. In his last 10 games, his OPS is 975. Of course, he hasn’t hit a HR in just under a month… but he’s hitting.
kanderber - June 23, 2009
It's actually a little better than that.
21 games since May 25: .333/.413/.485, 898 OPS.
But.
Only 1 HR and only 7 RBI. That’s not what we need from a middle-of-the-order guy.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Well...
I agree with that statement in general. Obviously you want… no, you need… more production out of a middle of the order guy. But… it appears to just be a result of not many chances, at least the RBI piece of that. He’s had 33 AB’s with RISP and has a 920 OPS (with 12 RBI’s). So it’s not as if he’s not producing when he’s in scoring situations. But more so, he’s just not being put in those situations often enough. Which, of course, isn’t his fault.
kanderber - June 23, 2009
He'd probably have more if he were hitting fourth instead of third...
… since D-Lee is also so hot.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
agreed
Also, Milton’s health and presence in the third spot essentially coincided with Soriano’s slump.
elgato - June 23, 2009
Maybe...
He’s hitting .338 batting 3rd, .152 batting 4th, and .179 batting 5th.
kanderber - June 23, 2009
Those splits are meaningless.
They have to do with him hitting in those lineup slots while he was hitting poorly, not the other way around. For his career he’s hitting better in the 4 hole than anywhere else in the lineup. If you’re going to look up a meaningless set of splits please check them against… something… anything… before saying something stupid.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
He's had 11 ABs
batting 4th. With a .195/227/390/618 line (Avg, OBP, SLG, OPS)
Allie - June 23, 2009
11 ABs
Why even post a slash line when there are too few at-bats for the line to mean anything?
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Because you just said he's better in the 4 hole
than anywhere in the line up.
Why say that if its obviously not true?
Allie - June 23, 2009
I said for his career.
And I didn’t say he’s “better” there than anywhere else. Learn to read.
For the record, I think this is a pretty meaningless split for most hitters — his managers have tended to hit him fourth, over the course of his CAREER, when he’s hitting well. All I was trying to do was dispel kanderber’s idiotic notion that “OMG MAYBE HE CAN’T HIT 4TH BECAUSE HE HAS LOUSY SPLITS THIS YEAR IN A HANDFUL OF AT-BATS”.
For his career, 796 plate appearances (which is the correct hitting baseline, not AB) hitting 4th, and he’s hit .322/.438/.551.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Where are you getting this?
I must be looking in the wrong spot.
Allie - June 23, 2009
This is the link I'm looking at
Career stats (if you scroll down theres a list of batting order)
Allie - June 23, 2009
You're looking at Soriano.
We’re talking about Bradley.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Oh........never mind.
willie mays hayes' gloves - June 23, 2009
b-r.com
Career:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=bradlmi01&year=Career&t=b#lineu
The 2009 numbers (which disagree somewhat with those you stated, but the b-r split numbers sometimes disagree with official totals for weird reasons) are here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=bradlmi01&year=2009&t=b#lineu
aldimond - June 23, 2009
My bad
I must’ve gotten this thread and the Soriano should bat lower stuff mixed up
I’m really sorry for my tone. Shouldnt’ have gotten so snippy with you.
Allie - June 23, 2009
this says otherwise...
baseball reference career splits by batting position.
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
Oh...your talking about Milton Bradley...
that explains it.
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
Ha, that's weird.
Half the thread talking about Bradley, half about Soriano… and Bradley happens to have the same number of AB in the 4 hole this year as Soriano does for his career. Odd coincidence.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Soriano...
Has been in a terrible slump over the same amount of games or more. Who is Milton supposed to drive in when there is no one on base?
tripdenten - June 23, 2009
Not to mention Theriot...
… who is OBPing .305 for June. Soriano, for the record, is at .247. Hard to drive in runs until those guys pick it up.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Sort of
Bradley’s problem continues to be hitting from the left side…exactly the reason he was brought to Chicago in the first place. He’s hitting .212 from the left side and even worse, is slugging .354. He’s regularly getting beaten by fastballs in and many of his hits from that side of the plate have been of the broken-bat, flare variety. He’s just not hitting the ball hard with any consistency from the left side.
I like Bradley and hope he does start hitting with more regularity but for the better part of this season, he’s been killing this offense by hitting from the left side in the middle of the lineup.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
what's interesting, over his career, Bradley is hitting 40 points lower
against righties, so was this a case of bad scouting by Hendry and crew? His struggles from the left side seem to be consistent with what he’s always done
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
Perhaps
More importantly to me, it is really head-scratching to watch a professional hitter who hit over .300 last year, continually get beat from one side of the plate. It’s not unusual to see a guy hit better from one side or another but for pitchers to continue to get inside Bradley’s kitchen for as long as they have been this season is really perplexing. I recognize that he’s trying to make adjustments but he continues to get busted inside from the left side and so far he hasn’t had an answer to it.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
maybe it's because last year was a career year
Bradley has hit under .300 more often in his career than he has hit over .300
He was also playing in a launching pad last year.
This notion that Bradley is a GREAT hitter was ALWAYS nonsense. He’s always been okey doke, with some very good years mixed in with very bad ones.
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
Well
He’s hit over .300 more than once and is regularly in the .275-.300 range so I’d consider him better than just OK. It just hasn’t worked out that way from the left side this year. And it really won’t work out unless he starts hitting the ball harder. You can only live on flairs and soft liners for so long. Once he starts hitting the ball harder, his real value to the club will surface. From the right side, he’s done that. From the left side, not so much.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
Agree
tough to get a full assesment of Bradley becasue he is hurt so often. He is a career .278 hitter, average at best. But the guy needs to hit from the left side and drive in runs as you mentioned.
Grockcubs - June 23, 2009
Bradley's value as a hitter isn't in his AVG...
it’s in his high OBP and decent power. So while he’s a career .278 hitter, he’s a well-above average hitter (116 OPS+). And in the last two years (one in a hitters’ park and one in two pitchers’ parks) he’s been a REALLY good hitter (OPS+ over 150). The problem has been health obviously.
For his career, Bradley has been better from the right side (against LHP). But he hasn’t been BAD from the left side. His numbers against RHP are .268/.361/.433 (.795 OPS). They are comparatively much worse than his numbers vs LHP (.304/.388/.503), but they aren’t nearly as awful as he’s been so far.
I also disagree with Wandering’s statement that he’s had some very bad seasons as a hitter. From 2003-2008, his worst season as a hitter was above average.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
So, Hendry brought in a supposedly LH batter who is much better as a RH hitter?
Why am I not surprised?
Fraggin Judge - June 23, 2009
Don't
accuse me of not paying attention. Goodness, no homeruns since May 25th, has not even reached 20 RBI’s, and this for 10 Million per. Hell Theriot hits for average, is that what we want out of Milton?
Grockcubs - June 23, 2009
of course not
but the entire team has been scuffling at the plate.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
you can't go
from.240 to .290 in a week….it will take weeks/month or more to get an average up this far into the season.
cozmotaylor123 - June 23, 2009
I don't care if his batting average gets to .290
What’s done is done. If he gets on base at a .400 clip and slugs between .450 and .500 the rest of the way, well… then I’m happy — happy with the mid-to-late season, at least. You can’t fix what’s in the past, and pressing to try to make up for a bad early-season won’t help things.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Can't get too upset about this loss...
Yes, we had a TON of opportunities to score. And yes, Dempster pitched another hell of a ballgame. But we were facing one of the best pitchers in the league this year, and this Chicago to Atlanta to Detroit all in 48 hours thing can’t be easy. Would’ve been nice to get the W, obviously, but I wasn’t too ticked off at this one.
kanderber - June 23, 2009
True, I can live with a
Win 4, Lose 1 pattern over the remainder of the season. It’s the lose 5 that causes heartburn.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
The Road record is what concerns me...
They don’t play well on the road for some reason. Not a lot of teams do. But if they could play just a little better it would go a long way.
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
Gimme something close to .500 on the road
and I will limit the complaining.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
That's the way I see it too!
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
June 27, 2007
June 27, 2007 was when the Angels got 10 hits and were shut out by the Royals, 1-0. I don’t know if that’s the last time a MLB team got 10 hits and shut out or not.
memphiscub - June 23, 2009
How about this...
… the last time the Cubs were shut out with double-digit hits in a nine-inning game was Aug. 29, 1990, at Houston.
Ouch.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
August 25, 2008
How about the Dodgers getting 13 hits and getting shut out by the Phillies, 5-0? Here’s the box score.
memphiscub - June 23, 2009
Thanks for the info.
It’s still been a long time, particularly for the Cubs: 19 years. Wow.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
I like to try to classify things the way floods are broken down.
When i lived in Iowa during the horrible floods of 93, we were all told it was a 500 year flood, something that had been seen in the region only four times since Christ had roamed the earth. Great way to put things in perspective.
Hopefully this sort of offensive futility is a 20 year occurrence, and is something i won’t see but 3 or 4 times in my life.
Also, i forgot to link to that game against houston.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
It only happened twice last year
You mentioned the phillies/dodgers game. The other time was the Reds/Astros game on 9/24 when the Reds were shutout on 10 hits. So twice in 2400+ games in 2008… I’d say that’s pretty rare.
lohroffc - June 23, 2009
Another 3B is still a good idea
No one can honestly expect ARam to pick up where he left off before the injury. I think it would still be a good idea to acquire someone like Al suggested, be it Teahan or Tracy or Kouzmanoff. That way ARam can ease back into a full time role and not re-injure himself trying to do too much too soon.
CaliCub - June 23, 2009
I agree
Rami is going to have so much pressure on him when he comes back. Everyone’s counting on him to be himself… and he’s not going to be. Especially not right away.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Pre-emptive
Rami wants to thank you Faletinme Be Mice Elf Agin.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
That went completely over my head
Allie - June 23, 2009
Almost like a bad-ass 'fro...
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
A Sly & the Family Stone song...
… one of the first songs to be considered true ‘funk’, i’ve seen it covered by DMB a few times…
I think there may be a generational problem with the joke though, even after i Wikipedia’d it. Over my head as well. Damn. Thwarted.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
The title is a phonetic joke.
After that, it all falls into place.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Finally be myself again?
Allie - June 23, 2009
"Thank you for letting me be myself, again"
:D
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Phonics have never been my strong suit
Allie - June 23, 2009
"Dance to the music, all night long!"
i’ve got that damn horn part stuck in my head now
heine41 - June 23, 2009
Probably one of my least favorite closers....
heine41 - June 23, 2009
Agreed.
Always close with your own song. People paid to hear YOU.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
It's hard to win with all singles
The weakness of this team isn’t BA or OBP- it’s lack of POWER. Bradley’s avg may slowly be rising, but again, no power- no doubles power, no HR power. That’s what’s killing us. When we lose, it’s almost always a game where we hit little to no extra base hits.
Frustrating.
reedjohnson - June 23, 2009
Very.
Couple that fact with the question on whether Aramis will have any of his power on return and there is no quick solution.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Bradley had 2 doubles on Sunday
and didn’t play yesterday. Not really fair to pin it on him.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
I should say
He didn’t start yesterday. Not quite the same.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
The last time I looked,
the 2009 Cubs had hit about the same number of home runs as the 2008 Cubs at the point in the season. Not sure about the number of doubles.
I think the difference in the 2008 and 2009 offenses is last year the entire line-up contributed. This year, the bottom of the line-up is a total non-factor.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
We could live with the lack of power
if the team could play small ball. But we don’t have the speed generally, and we’re not using the tools, hit and runs, squeezes, that could make it successful.
chitownhawkeye - June 23, 2009
Demp
I know he pitched a hell of a game, he really worked hard and made pitches when they mattered most……until that 7th inning. I was a bit disappointed Lou didn’t have the stones to pull him for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 6th. It was shown on cam that after apparently telling Demp he was going to take him out for a PH, Demp made a face of disappointment and Lou putting his arms up as if to say, “you kids don’t listen, I give up”. It probably does not make a huge difference but that’s what we have a bullpen for. We ended up having 2 baserunners that inning but I feel we gave away an out. I’m seriously starting to see a little too much Dusty in Lou for my liking.
tony412 - June 23, 2009
Eh...
The bullpen was pretty taxed after the weekend. I don’t have a problem with Demp going back out there for the 7th. Besides, Aaron Miles was going to PH for him, and we all know how that at bat would’ve turned out.
kanderber - June 23, 2009
Like I said, probably not much of a difference maker
but what’s with Lou managing by trying to keep the players happy? This is contrary to everything I thought Lou was and how he seemed to manage when he first came to the Cubs.
tony412 - June 23, 2009
I'm not sure that
you can elicit proper assumptions of managing methods based on watching faces on the television.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I think body language says a lot
in person or on tv….in addition to that, the moves (or lack of moves) he makes on the field tell a lot about his managing methods as well. It’s not just one thing.
tony412 - June 23, 2009
I think fans overrate body language
Allie - June 23, 2009
I don't think anyone is
overstating it enough to consider it overrated. But we do talk about it on here quite often. For example, when discussing any given players supposed hustle or lack of hustle.
tony412 - June 23, 2009
The only person's body language
I feel confident to comment on is my best friend. And I’m not always right. And I’ve known her for nearly 20 years.
If people can look at a tv screen (aired by a company that owns the team) and feel like they have the whole story… good for them.
Allie - June 23, 2009
I don't think anyone is saying that
much less with any certainty…. we’re all just commenting here. BB was commenting on Javy Vazq looking gassed based on his body language in that 6th inning. Naturally, no one is ever going to know what’s going on in another person’s head nor can you assume you do.
tony412 - June 23, 2009
Unless your name is...
Joe Morgan.
In that case, you know what every other person is thinking at any given moment. He is the all-seeing Oracle of Motivations.
:)
CubsWin!Oregon - June 23, 2009
I don't buy it.
it’s one thing to draw from a player’s body language that they’re uncomfortable or hurt or jittery. It’s something else entirely to attempt to suss out a manager’s skills from body language or facial expressions. Yes, we can tell when he’s upset with a pitcher. But to suggest we can ken more than that…
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I agree with this, Lou really screwed this up,
Lou needs to pinch hit in that situaiton. It was obvious runs were going to be tough, but letting your pitcher lead-off top of the seventh was an emotional bone-head move. As it turns it we had two that inning, Demp leads off with a K, if we get a PH on base – it would have been 1 run.
Not to mention Demp was clearly out of gas. He barely made it out of the 6th with the DP. So, he comes back in the the bottom of th 7th, and only can go 2/3rds after giving up an insurance run.
Should of pinch hit maybe tie the game, Marshall comes in and holds, at least we have a shot. Becauase of Lou’s emotional (Baker-like?) reaction we essentially lost the opportunity.
BatCubFan - June 23, 2009
You are absolutely right
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Question from the broadcast
Len or Bob made the comment that Dempster and Vazquez had probably faced each other a lot of times, going back to when Ryan was in Florida and Javier in Montreal. I started to look it up, because I can’t imagine it happened all that often, but couldn’t find a good way to search for both pitchers at once in baseball-reference. Anybody know how to do it?
cubzfan - June 23, 2009
Try batter vs pitcher matchups
It’s not ideal, but you can get a list of all the games in which Vazquez has come to bat against Dempster, and vice versa. Looking at that, it seems like they had 3 starts against one another when they were both in the NL East.
There may be a better way, but I haven’t found it yet.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
That seems like the best approach...
Probably better to use Dempster against Vazquez (because Dempster was a reliever for a while).
But it makes sense that the number is about 3 starts between them. Vazquez has faced Dempster’s team roughly 15 times in his career when Dempster was a starter. So assuming a five-man rotation gives a 20% chance of facing Dempster each time. Multiplying 15 starts by 20 percent gives you 3 starts.
It looks like Vazquez faced Dempster once or twice in 2001, once in 2002, and once in 2008.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Thanks, guys!
That’s all I was looking for. Evidence that the matchup didn’t happen all THAT much.
cubzfan - June 23, 2009
Weird that Bradley's been such a great DH
and such a crappy PH.
You’d think if you excelled at one, you’d be decent at the other….
Allie - June 23, 2009
a DH still
bats four times in a game.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
True
Just seems like if you tore up being a DH, you’d be better than 3-26 PH
Allie - June 23, 2009
26 AB is a tiny sample.
He may be crappy, may not be. He has 8 walks and 10 strikeouts among those appearances… both those numbers are really high. Overall he has 50 PA coming into the game as a sub (which adds in defensive substitutions, double-switches, etc.) and the numbers are similarly bad there. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t do a good job of getting himself up to game speed when coming into the game late.
aldimond - June 23, 2009
Not gonna lie....
Didnt watch a second of this game.
With the College World Series on last night, i couldnt pass that up. BUUUUTTTTT how about the Cubs draft pick (LeMahieu) coming through in the clutch when his team was down 2 in the top of the ninth! A great double down the line scoring 2 to tie the game!
Good stuff!
HIGGY - June 23, 2009
I love the College World Series
Such a blast.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Yeah I decided to take the night off.
Instead I decided to watch the movie “The Wrestler.” Wow was that ever a mistake. Don’t listen to anyone that tells you it’s good. I kept wondering if I had turned on Lifetime.
cubswynn - June 23, 2009
Yes!
More scrappy LSU middle infielders!
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
I was texting a buddy about this...
Said the Cubs game was a bummer but it was cool to see the Cubs 2nd rnd draft pick get the game tying hit in the 9th… So at least he could hit. He texted back… “Think he could be in Detroit tomorrow.”
Fishbone2 - June 23, 2009
Last night,
I had Cubs nightmares. I can’t remember the specifics, but there were names and numbers, sweat and tears, dismay and anger. I woke up cussing up a storm. Too bad I couldn’t solve this problem in my subconscious mind, because my conscious mind thinks the Royals are on the cusp of winning and they may not be sellers this season.
Imagine if this offense resembled last year’s. With the way the pitchers have stepped up—bar Harden—hey’d be 44-22…
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Haven't we seen this movie before?
Every time it seems like they’re going to turn the corner, they haven’t. I think this is how the whole season will play out.
goddess - June 23, 2009
you don't turn a corner on one game
before saying we’ve reverted lets see what DET brings, shall we?
Allie - June 23, 2009
+1
Two of our starters sat this game out, the reserves actually got hits, but we can’t count of DLee to bring in runs every night.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
Didn't watch this game
but it sounds like it was better than some of early shut outs… at least we had chances.
How many times earlier this year did we never get a guy past second? It feels like a lot.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Three times, by my count
4/22 against the Reds
4/29 against the D-backs
5/19 against the Cardinals
Man, were those some depresssing games to go back and look at.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
Huh?
How is one shutout better than another? There are no silver linings from a shutout. Ever.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
We were one big hit away from a win
Its still not a win and almost means nothing… but you’re not encouraged by any kind of progress in this?
Allie - June 23, 2009
Exactly
If they’d played this game a few weeks ago, the Cubs probably would’ve gotten all of 3 hits. 10 is better than 3! Unfortunately none of them were timely… that still needs work.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
Exactly
But getting several guys hitting is a step in the right direction.
Wish they’d put it together soon though. Losses like this will really drive you nuts in Sept.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Hell no
By getting shut out? Are you kidding me? That is being considered as “progress” around here? Might as well just say it was a good thing they didn’t get no hit or that they all showed up to the right ballpark or that everyone was wearing the same uniform pants.
This is major league baseball. This isn’t the Palatine Park and Rec league. One big hit away translates into a loss no matter how you look at it. I understand the intention of trying to take something positive away from last night’s loss but a loss is a loss is a shut out is a shut out.
For an offense that has struggled mightily for nearly the entire season, I’d even suggest that in this case, a shut out loss is even more alarming than any old, garden variety loss.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
Silver linings
At least we didn’t have to put up with a bunch of whining in the Game Threads.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Happy days
Makes a shut out much more palatable I suppose doesn’t it?
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
Beats the alternative
Obviously.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Yawn
Cutesy….as I know your intent. I’ll leave that to the guys that no more baseball than I do. Obviously.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
Spelling
…apparenlty is poor….“know”.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
Good save
And I bow to your superior baseball knowledge. Could you quit rubbing it in my face now? Or forever? Please?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
This was going to be a crappy game anyway
Chicago to ATL to DET wasn’t going to go well, IMO, beforehand.
I’m not happy we lost. But I’m not going to riot about it.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Fine
Nobody is rioting…but to somehow take the “at least we did this” approach is kind of silly. I suppose that might work with little leaguers that can’t hit but major leaguers that are getting paid to perform are a different story.
krummy12 - June 23, 2009
I had this game as a loss before hand
So maybe I’m not as annoyed by it as you.
But getting hits from several guys makes me feel better about it. At least they’re looking alive, finally. Now to string some together and scratch out a couple runs consistently to go with the solid pitching would be awesome.
Allie - June 23, 2009
You can't win them all.
We’d won four leading up to this. The bats weren’t dead, and it wasn’t like the team played like crap offensively or defensively. A ten hit no run game is as much of a statistical abbhoration as a futile offensive effort.
Between travel and the resting two of our bigger bats, this is not something to get grumpy about.
Unless you revel in grumpiness, that is. You can’t win them all, and i suspect a small part of that pleases you.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
if you can't see the difference between a 3 hit shut out
and a 12 hit shut out…
No one’s saying that it’s something to cheer about. But more guys are getting the bat on the ball. That can only be good going forward.
Of course, you don’t think there IS any going forward, so you automatically discount it.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
That's like putting up 500 total yards of offense in football and not scoring
and saying the team has no offense
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
I LOVE METAPHORS!
Even if you only get to first base, you don’t write off the date as a complete failure!
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Depends what # date it is doesn't it ? LOL
Madison Cub Fan - June 23, 2009
LMAo
Allie - June 23, 2009
Ma'am
this is your fourth support call this month. If you don’t stop cutting your cable with those scissors, I’m going to have to report you.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
You animal!
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
That is one sad looking cow.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
This will be interesting to watch.
Detroit is playing well this year, has a few good pitchers, etc. They are a little depleted with Magglio not performing so a Cub team with two DH’s on the bench in Fox/Hoffpauir might match up well.
If then win one and play close in the others, it’s a decent outcome. That said, I want three against my boyhood team.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Sure but...
I’m thinking the last four games were the fluke, not last night. Detroit will be a good test. Let’s see if they can string hits together and move guys around the bases. Good situational hitting is the sign I’m looking for.
goddess - June 23, 2009
The Indians aren't very good
But sweeping is still hard to do, even against not very good teams.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Was this a makeup game?
bren - June 23, 2009
Yes
For this crap:
At least we got to watch a decent Marlins-Brewers game on the DiamondVision.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Don't Forget...
we also got to watch the end of Randy Johnson’s 300th victory on DiamondVision.
memphiscub - June 23, 2009
I was staying dry inside for that :)
Sad to say, I was the only one in my general area that celebrated it. People looked at me funny, and I had to explain why the Big Unit was grinning.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
That is a very impressive jumbotron
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Dogzillatron
The only one that I’ve seen that is more impressive than that one is at Davis-Wade Stadium at Mississippi State in Starkville dubbed the “Dogzillatron”.
memphiscub - June 23, 2009
I said it at the ~game
For a stadium, Turner Field is a pretty good sports bar.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Especially when they have the hot chicks dancing on top of the dugout,
SackMan - June 23, 2009
NTTAWWT
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Apparently
The new one at Yankee Stadium is even more impressive. And the new one at the new Texas Stadium is supposed to dwarf every other jumbotron out there.
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Everything's bigger in Texas?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Godzillatron
The jumbotron at the University of Texas called the Godzillatron is the largest in college sports.
memphiscub - June 23, 2009
All the better to watch Oklahoma run up the score against them, I guess.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Is it just me, or
does anybody else think Texas’ need to build everything “bigger than yours” extremely annoying? Almost over-compensatory for “other shortcomings”?
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
Lots of space out there
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Yet you don't see Montanans build the largest nothing ever...
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
No need when it comes built in.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Sure it is...
…but 2/3 of it is purely devoting to advertising. I don’t really consider that the biggest screen with most of it isn’t even for the replay.
dtpollitt - June 23, 2009
Does Lou feel like managing this week?
He rests two of our supposed biggest run producers on the same night. Again, why? Reminiscent of the Lincecum game. Rest Soriano and his knee, but don’t sit Bradley too… who’s been heating up big time. Just dumbfounding.
And, we end up stranding every runner we put on base… which was a lot of them. At any time, say when the bases were loaded with 2 out in the 6th, Lou could’ve pinch hit one of them. Blanco flied out to end that inning. Bradley would’ve been a great choice right there (and we have a gazillion 2B to come in and replace Blanco), instead of waiting till the 9th to use him. An absolute waste.
SackMan - June 23, 2009
Soriano and Bradley both suck. I don't think you want either up in a clutch situation right now.
Jerry Mumphrey - June 23, 2009
but you want Blanco?
C’mon
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
The whole game
kinda felt like they were running in vats of oatmeal.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I only caught part of it
but to me it was more a Groundhog Day during various innings. Thought boy didn’t I hear that last inning.
Madison Cub Fan - June 23, 2009
+1
My thoughts exactly.
goddess - June 23, 2009
...and the Cubs strand two as we go to the bottom of the...
Bleah.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
I don't think we should acquire Teahen..
…if we need another bat, have Von work with a power hitter. When we pick people up, they end up being a bust. Don’t spend anymore money on someone who is average.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
If Ramirez comes back 100%,
another power hitter is not needed. However, a player who can produce something and back up third is required.
Ramirez will probably need to rest more games and who says he will be back to his old self.
Whether you want Teahen or not, he would fill that role and also back up first, a little second and the outfield corners.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
No...
….we don’t need anyone backing up first or any middle infielders. He’s ok at 3rd, but he’s not the guy we need/want. If you want someone like that, than we should go for DeRo. No one else.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
DeRo isn't happening
and we’re going to need someone to back up 3rd, come off the bench, and maybe even able to fill in the corner OF spots.
Whether its Teahen or Harry Potter, I don’t care. Just get someone.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Expelliarmus!
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
I disagree..
…with the “just get someone.” No, not “just someone.” We either get DeRo or nothing. Who we have now can fill in for ARam until he gets back.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Why DeRo or nothing?
Is there something he’s capable of doing that nobody else in the major leagues is?
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
Setting my heart aflutter.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Don't forget
Making the blind see and the lame walk.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Damn
I must’ve stood in the wrong line
Allie - June 23, 2009
You and me both
We probably could have switched spots and no one would have noticed.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Who else would we get?
Teahan? Why Teahan?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
So what you meant was DeRo or the names currently mentioned in the BCB threads?
Maybe Hendry has something up his sleeve like the Nomar deal that nobody saw coming. There are definitely players I’d rather have than DeRosa out there, but so few of them seem available. Maybe we’ll all be surprised.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
Perhaps...
…my main thing is, is to not get Tehan. Where would he go when ARam comes back?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
to the bench
to fill in when Rami needs a day off or if he has a setback with his rehab.
I had the same injury and ending up having surgery b/c I had a setback in physical therapy. I went out with my friends and danced for about an hour… and redislocated it by changing clothes. It could be anything.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Tehen is currently a starter...
…what if he declines to play a bench roll?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
and DeRosa will?
or does DeRosa take Fonty’s spot, as I’ve suggested?
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
DeRo would be our everyday 2nd baseman
and fill in other spots as needed.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Then he joins Farney in AAA
Allie - June 23, 2009
I love DeRo
But it isn’t him or nothing. Tehan would be an awesome guy to get, probably even better than DeRo.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Tehen is not that great of a ball player. He is not better than DeRo.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I like Mark DeRosa
but when did he become the measuring stick?
Allie - June 23, 2009
I thought size doesn't matter
oh.no.I.did.not.just.say.that
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
He became the measuring stick
when everyone said we need someone to be a 3rd baseman since ARam went out. Everyone on here who’s commenting on it seem to think that what we have doesn’t work, so we need to acquire someone who can play the position. I suggest DeRo since we already know what he can do, and because the Indians are rumored to be shopping him.
People seem to be vying for Tehan. My opinion and mind you, it’s just my opinion, we get DeRo or no one. Why waste money on Tehan when we can get by on what we have?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
At this point the window for the 3B replacement is shrinking every day
as Aramis looks to be returning soon. A hitter who could help us out at 2B after he’s back would be valuable, especially against LHP.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
I agree with that...
…someone who can help at 2nd base
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Because we just don't have enough 2B?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
sure we have enough...
…do we have any that can hit?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Everyone keeps raving about this Theriot guy..
wonder how he’d be at the bigs…
Allie - June 23, 2009
Ummm...there's...
TheriotBlancoFontenotMilesScalesWhy must you qualify these things?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Unfortunately, you can't add 5 crappy OPS's together to get a good one
If we got one good second basemen (or the other half of Fontenot’s platoon) we could part ways with Miles, Freel, etc.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
We don't know that
I have yet to see a 5 headed, duct-taped together middle infielder get trotted out there.
But, for the record, I’m totally willing to support Lou if he wants to try it.
I recommend taping Miles upside down.
chitownhawkeye - June 23, 2009
People are vying for Teahen
because he might be cheaper/available more quickly than DeRosa.
And because the chances of Hendry dealing for a player he just dealt away are nil.
Allie - June 23, 2009
why are they nil?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Because the Indians are going to be able to set the price
and they aren’t going to sell him as cheaply as we did.
Allie - June 23, 2009
The Indians are trying to cut payroll
They may be able to set the price, but it’s not going to be too high for us to pick him up.
We can sign DeRo for a few years, but if we get Tehen, we’ll just basically be renting him.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Why would DeRosa resign here?
Especially if we’re “cutting payroll”?
Allie - June 23, 2009
Because he likes Chicago
as he’s stated in the past.
The Cubs are a better team than the Indians and he’d have a better chance of making the playoffs.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
He's a FA this winter
He’s going to be able to pick where he goes. And if he’s as valuable as you seem to be telling us he is, he’s going to get to pick from a lot of places. Some of which are guaranteed to offer more money than us.
IOW, both are just rentals for now. Get the best/cheapest rental you can and let it ride. Please stop this “DeRosa or no one” stuff.
Allie - June 23, 2009
he might
want to pick here. FWIW.
But I don’t ascribe to DeRo or nothing.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
He might
but there’s no guarantee he’d be any more of a rental than Teahen or anyone else likely to be on the market soon.
Allie - June 23, 2009
agreed.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
Uhh, no, you stop commenting if you don't like it
It makes no sense to sign someone other than DeRo, if anybody…ARam will be back. Fox can play 3rd now, and Fontenot if needed.
No reason to pick someone up unless they’re going to be as valuable as DeRo.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I think the problem would be more from the team's perspective than his.
Next year we will be extremely strapped for cash. Unless the ownership situation changes soon, we’re going to be very limited players in the FA market barring trading away some salary first. DeRosa will probably cost too much unless we can make a trade.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
DeRosa is already 34 and will be 35
by the start of next season. He will be able to sign one more decent contract.
With all the 30+ no trade clauses already on the roster, do the Cubs need to another multi-year deal to a player on the wrong side of 35?
Get him to fill the backup void at 3b, give him a chance to play every day at second upon Aramis’ return? YES. Re-sign him if acquired? DEAR GOD NO.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
he's an easy measuring stick
because we’re more emotionally familiar with his work.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
Nail on head.
DeRo is good. I’m not denying that. Last i checked (and best i can remember) he is batting like 11 points over the average for his position this year. Any team could use that sort of production, ours included.
The reason the constant talk of DeRo or the “DeRo or no one” mentality is prevalent here is because we are comfortable with him. Because i’ve been on a metaphor kick, i’ll use this one again: We dumped a pretty lady (DeRo) we were used to because it hadn’t gone to the heights we’d expected with her (playoff sucsess), and there were younger, more exciting and unknown options out there. Now that we’ve been in bed with our “upgrades” for a few months, one of them turned out to be a bit more of an adventure early on than we’d hoped (Bradley with injuries and crazyness) and the other gave us the clap (Miles). Meanwhile, the old option and her steady reliability keep looking better and better.
Anybody pretending we as a fanbase aren’t MORE interested in DeRo than we would be if he hadn’t ever played here is delusional. There is very little evidence he has a better chance ending up here than with any other team if he IS moved at all. Pining over him is all well and good, but eventually you’ve gotta accept where you are and make the best of it. If the old girl takes us back at some point, great… but it isn’t worth counting on.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Commitment, or new ...?
New … can’t cook!
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
so if we really want Hendry to get him back
we need to email him with the subject line
“BRING DEROSA BACK AND WE’LL GO ALL THE WAY!”
Cubs fans gone WILD, baby!
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I believe it's even simpler than the pining/girl thing.
DeRosa can fill the need. Power, average, RBI, Third or Second. Already a known personality and the commitment is not past this season.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Agreed. He'd be good at all of that.
The reason we as cubs fans are so sure of it is because we’ve watched him do so. We are pining for what is safe and familiar in the midst of our own uncertain times with some new players. This doesn’t undo what is done. It really ISN’T any different.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Can Harry Potter hit a curve ball?
Madison Cub Fan - June 23, 2009
Who knows
but he’d probably hang in there against LHP better than Fontenot.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Harry Potter prolly has VOM (value over Miles) also
Madison Cub Fan - June 23, 2009
Who doesn't have VOM?
Allie - June 23, 2009
Are you saying Harry Potter can't hit a curveball?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Well, I was thinking if Hendry acquires someone to play/backup third, one of the DH's would have to go
back down, removing one of the corner of/1b backups. Having the third alternative fill that role as well would be a plus, which Teahan, DeRosa, Huff, etc. could accomplish.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
"if we need another bat, have Von work with a power hitter."
who? Easier said than done
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
that was supposed to be a reply to Cubs and Hawks fan
WanderingWanderer - June 23, 2009
That's what the hitting coach is for...
…we don’t need to sign another bust just to fill in for ARam.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
The 9-inning record for most hits in a game without scoring is 14, done twice
Sept 14, 1913, NY Giants got 14 hits in a loss to the Cubs 7-0 at Chicago.
July 10, 1928, Cleveland Indians got 14 hits, too, in a shutout loss to the Senators 9-0.
The extra-inning record is 15. This has been done three times (12 innings, 15 innings, and 21 innings).
Modern day is 13—as mentioned above—Phillies vs Dodgers, August 25, 2008 (boxscore)
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
Was Overall on the mound for that Giants' exercise in futility?
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
Actually, Larry Cheney was the pitcher for the Cubs
Look at the last paragraph here.
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
That had to be the lone dark spot
In an otherwise stellar year for the hated Giants. 101-51 is nothing to sneeze at. It’s no 107-45, but pretty impressive, nonetheless.
Clutch16 - June 23, 2009
21 Innings?
Yikes.
Allie - June 23, 2009
of shut out baseball
I’d poke my own eyes out after about 15
chitownhawkeye - June 23, 2009
I doubt I'd have made it past 11 or so
2+ games worth of shutout… yuck.
I love a pitcher’s duel. But damn.
Allie - June 23, 2009
I should mention that 13 hits in a shutout loss has been done 13 times since 1961
The Dodgers at Phillies was the most recent
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
I might just call up 610 Sports today here in KC...
…and see what they think about trading us Teahen. This season was full of promise for the Royals…and it’s been greatly disappointing.
dtpollitt - June 23, 2009
Do they have an appetite for scrappy?
If so, the Cubs might be a great trading partner.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Mike Avalis surely hasn't panned out like he was supposed to after last year.
dtpollitt - June 23, 2009
My heart just
wasn’t in the game last night and looked like the Cub’s hearts weren’t either. Hopefully they get some rest today and will be fired up for the game tonight.
sue369 - June 23, 2009
Cubs vs. Sox Make-Up Date ?!?!
I’ve looked on this site and Cubs.com, but can’t find a confirmed make up date for the rain out. Anyone know?
Thanks in advance.
wrigley's ivy - June 23, 2009
AFAIK
Sept 3… but its not set in stone yet.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Guessing Sept 3
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
Thanks!
I know there is a lot of planning and contingencies that go into scheduling a make-up, but it’s a pain trying to keep track and hoping I don’t have anything going on that day…
wrigley's ivy - June 23, 2009
Sept. 3 is really the only logical date for it.
Just waiting for it to be made official.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
It could be played after the completion of the regular season as an "if needed" game
like the Astros make-up game was last year, no?
flachimesa - June 23, 2009
No.
That is too much lost revenue.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
They generally only do those "if needed" games...
.. if:
a) there’s not enough time left in the season, as with the Houston game last September, or
b) there aren’t any possible makeup dates.
Neither condition applies to the Sox rainout.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
it's hotter than a two peckered billy goat in Des Moines right now.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
yeah
we’re at a heat index of 97 in Portage, IN
Allie - June 23, 2009
Yeah, it's icky out there.
Usually I go for a walk to stretch my legs a bit during my lunch hour here in Valpo.
Not today. UGH.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
Our heat index was 107
We had some strong thunderstorms just a while ago.
sue369 - June 23, 2009
::opens photobucket::
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
::is afraid::
Allie - June 23, 2009
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
not just two peckers
but ALSO with a FORE UDDER!
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I thought you would have commented on the cannon bone too.
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
I totally missed
the cannon bone. o.0
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
I'm still waiting for the Tijuana Padres of San Diego picture.
dtpollitt - June 23, 2009
this is the best I can do
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
I think that Lou needs to move Soriano to the 3 hole and here's why
The whole argument on his splits batting leadoff versus other spots in the lineup have gone out the window with his prolonged slump. The guy needs to see some fastballs and obliterate them, and with Lee so hot right now he would see plenty of them in the 3 hole. Bradley is a patient enough hitter where he can be slotted anywhere.
I’d move Bradley to the 2 hole – Fukudome outside of his 4-5 game is like 0 for his last 29 and no justification for batting him 2nd. Lineup I’d like to see (and yes I know Lou would not want 3 righties in a row but he can get over it)—
Theriot
Bradley
Soriano
Lee
Fox
Fukudome
Soto
Blanco
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
Fox probably won't start
against right-handers.
elgato - June 23, 2009
likely true
and that is fine. My lineup suggestion is more focused on playing around with 1-3 in the order to try and shake things a bit.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
If I'm pitching
I don’t care where he is in the order, I’m not throwing him fastballs. I’ll play the odds of him taking a walk.
He needs to stop swinging at crap first.
chitownhawkeye - June 23, 2009
I don't know any situation
where as a pitcher I would throw Soriano a fastball, unless the game was well in hand, it was the ninth inning, and I was already late for post-game plans.
jerry morales rules - June 23, 2009
Look
Seeing as he’s the one filling out the lineup card… I think you’re the one who can get over it.
Allie - June 23, 2009
another unecessarily rude post
how about adding some input Allie rather than that worthless dribble. It has been discussed many times on this board that Lou’s obsession with Lefties has been questionable strategy at best.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
Figured worthless dribble
went better with worthless beaten into the ground lineup talk.
Soriano’s Ks are annoying at the top of the order… why on earth would they be suited for the 3rd spot?
Allie - June 23, 2009
did you read the post?
apparently not, and apparently you don’t have a concept of how pitchers approach batters based on who is on deck. According to your logic, the batter in front of Albert Pujols is pitched the same way as the 8th hitter in the Cards lineup.
What qualifies as not being worthless conversation? What topic is fertile ground for discussion Allie? I guess everyone here on the board can cross lineup strategy off the list – Allie has decided there is no point talking about it.
And I wasn’t implying Lou can get over it as in “tough for him,” and instead implying it as "he has the ability to be flexible.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
So you're going to call me out for rudeness
and then say that I obviously know nothing about baseball.
Pot? You there? Kettle’s calling.
The whole “move Soriano and fix the world” stuff is old, tired and never made any sense to me. Soriano strikes out, doesn’t excel with RISP (admitedly, I can’t find that stat but I remember seeing it somewhere. I’ll keep looking for a few).
Currently, he hits a fly ball 46%, ground ball 28% and k’s 25%. Why on earth would batting in front of Lee change that? He’s never going to consistently lay off the low and away junk to the point where a pitcher has to feed him fastballs.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Then don't comment on it.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Found it
He’s a career .250 hitter with RISP.
Bases empty, he’s .287 career with an OPS nearly 90 points higher.
With over 1000 ABs each.
Allie - June 23, 2009
anti-clutch
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
The word you're looking for...
is drivel, not dribble. LOL!
kanderber - June 23, 2009
i'll grant you that
i think i started to write babble and ended up somewhere in between the two words
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
Beltway's point isn't terrible
Soriano might do better if he saw more fastballs — and he might if Lee hit behind him.
I don’t really agree with Beltway’s lineup, though. I think the problem right now is that Lee and Bradley are hitting, but Soriano is almost an automatic out in front of them.
I don’t want to gamble that hitting Soriano third will change that.
elgato - June 23, 2009
Seriously?
Allie, do you think that the leadoff guy strikes out more than the 3 hole hitter? The leadoff guy’s job is to get on base. That’s it. The 3 hole hitter is a power hitter, and tends to strike out more.
Soriano K’s just as much now as a typical 3 hole hitter.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
You're right
Howard k’s 31% of the time.
Listen to a Philly fan talk about how annoying that can be.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Doesn't howard have the record for strikeouts in a season?
something like 199? or something close to 200…
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Mark Reynolds currently does
with 204, last year. He’s on pace to log over 220 this year, despite being one of the most productive 3Bs in the NL.
Howard has twice had 199 K’s in a season, including last year, when he led the NL in RBI’s. I’m not sure if Allie was being sarcastic or not, because Howard has a career OPS+ of 141 and finished second in MVP voting last year despite the 199 K’s.
madcow256 - June 23, 2009
I hate how Ks are an accepted part of hitting for power now
All of the early greats NEVER struck out… and now its aye okay to strike out 100x a season. I think its awful and lazy baseball.
Howard is a good hitter. But every Philly fan I know says he strikes out too much and can’t hit LHP… course Philly fans are notorious for complaining.
He was just the closest off the top of my head example to someone who bats middle of the lineup and Ks a lot.
Allie - June 23, 2009
That's a good point
In 1937, Joe DiMaggio led the majors with 46 homers and a .673 slugging percentage. He struck out only 37 times. In 1941, he hit 30 homers and struck out thirteen times. While I’ll admit that’s a somewhat extreme example, there’s nobody playing baseball today who can even come close to approaching it.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
Part of that is that pitchers didn't go for the K as much either...
Probably because hitters weren’t as strong as they are today. If you look, the vast majority of the strikeout leaders are from more recent eras.
And yes, DiMaggio is an extreme example.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Pujols averages mid 50s in strikeouts per year.
willie mays hayes' gloves - June 23, 2009
Dunn had the record didn't he?
And on a slightly unrelated note, If Adam Dunn keeps his production up he might hit 600 homers. Does that put him in the HOF?
Random I know, but interesting to think about IMO.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
600 bombs=HOF in my opinion
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Even if your last name is Sosa?
chilango2 - June 23, 2009
This assumes never gets in trouble for roids
I’m still torn. One stat shouldn’t get somebody in, but 600 is a lot of homers.
nji232 - June 23, 2009
I think you need to compare it with other greats who've played the game.
600 bombs is a shit ton. Only 6 people in the history of baseball have done it. I think it’s a huge number and should get someone in the Hall.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
It needs to be compared to its era...
It used to be that 400 HR was a virtual lock for the Hall. Prior to the mid-1990s, only one player with 400+ HR wasn’t in the Hall. Then the steroids era came and a BUNCH of players made 400 HR. So the bar moved to 500, because 400 was no longer a suitable threshold.
If Dunn gets to 600 HR, let’s see where the players of his era are in terms of HR. It’s possible that he’ll be the Dave Kingman of his era.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
I don't agree
I don’t think Sosa gets in.
I don’t think 1 stat should put you in the realm of greatness.
Allie - June 23, 2009
Personally I think Sosa should get in...
…but given the way the BBWAA’s current attitude toward PED users, he’s not going to make it for a long, long time – if ever.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
I think Sosa
probably should get in… but I don’t think he will for exactly the reasons you’ve listed.
Allie - June 23, 2009
tell that to Cal Ripkin and the number 2632
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
Eh, I dunno about that
Even without the streak, Ripken had pretty good stats for a SS/3B of his era. He might not have been a first-ballot HOFer, but he probably would’ve gotten in eventually.
hip2bsquare - June 23, 2009
But my point is...
the #2632 IS the reason he’s in.
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
I don't think its the only reason
He is one of only 8 players with 400HR/3000H.
That should’ve done it too.
Allie - June 23, 2009
That isn't the only reason..
…he was an all-around good player, and good for baseball.
The streak may have gotten him to 99% voting or whatever it was on the firs ballot but that’s not the only reason he’s in
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
It's A reason he's in...
and it might be the primary reason he’s in. But he would be in without the streak. Maybe he’s not a first-ballot guy – maybe he’s second or third. But he’d be in without the streak. His numbers across the board (as a shortstop) were just too good not to get him in.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Agreed
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I'll be damned
I didn’t know that.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
i think you make a point
And certainly the lineup suggestion has risks (Theriot and Bradley get on and Soriano is unable to even more them over or execute fundamental hitting). But to me I don’t think this team is going to go very far with a leadoff hitter batting .225. We can either wait and hope that Soriano pulls himself out of it, or try something to push him out of it, because this lineup with the way he’s hitting now is fairly impotent.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
I'd rather move Soriano
to fifth. But I’m not sure what you do next. I don’t like Fukudome hitting second.
elgato - June 23, 2009
I agree with Beltway in moving Soriano out of the leadoff spot...
…and I’ve said that since last year.
I say try him in the 3 hole for a couple games, see what happens. The only thing people can do right now is speculate what would happen. With his power, he shouldn’t be leadoff. He should be hitting 2 and 3-run bombs when he does hit a homerun, rather than solo shots.
I say move him to the 3 hole for awhile and see what happens. If it doesn’t work, then so be it, he can be moved again.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Time Warp!
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
if only
it were 2008 again. :P
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
yes, the good old days
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
From April to September
dr stabbingworth - June 23, 2009
Sandberg Game
25 years old today. Amazing how the years have flown by.
tucsoncubsfan - June 23, 2009
When you mentioned the D-Backs
it made me think back to after the 2007 playoffs when it looked like they were going to be legitmate contenders for years to come.
Tough night for Fukudome. Cubs could have potentially burried Vazquezs in the first, but the DP and then the lack of timely hitting came back to bite the Cubs again.
slocs55 - June 23, 2009
Felipe Lopez (currently with the D-Backs)
might be an interesting acquisition. He’s a switch hitter and has good speed and some pop. I think he can play 2nd, 3rd, and short (not great, but okay on occasion).
I wouldn’t think he’d cost a great deal in prospects. Since the snakes are so dismal this year, I’d imagine he’s available.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
Bring up Vitters to play 3rd
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Maybe in two years - not now
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
You're kidding, right?
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
No, I'm not kidding...
…bring him up. If he’s the stud everyone says he is, bring him up now. We need a 3rd baseman, Vitters is already a Cub, Tehan is not a good option, IMO. This eliminates any speculation that we go out and get someone. Vitters can field, hit, and run, right? Because if he couldn’t, he wouldn’t have been our top draft choice.
Bring him up!!
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
He's a stud PROSPECT, not a proven player...
You can be a stud prospect and also not be remotely ready to hit MLB pitching. If the kid was doing well in AA, I’d say give him a shot. But he’s two full levels below AA right now.
Vitters has shown the POTENTIAL to DEVELOP into a star. That’s why he was our top draft choice. That does not mean that he has the ability to hit MLB pitching now.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
He has the ability to field his position...
…he can work on his hitting. He’s not new to baseball. He can learn to hit MLB pitching.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
And that's not going to happen in a month, so why stunt him?
Let him get the appropriate training so he’s ready to learn when the time comes.
Fox is a better hitter right now than Vitters. Fontenot is a better hitter right now than Vitters. That will continue to be the case for this season (if not next).
Vitters will eventually likely be the better hitter. But he won’t be this year. So why bring him up only to have him be worse than what we already have?
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
of course they're better hitters, they've been in the bigs.
I’m talking about fielding a position here. If Vitters can’t do it, he wouldn’t have been drafted.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
No, you're talking about replacing Fontenot/Fox at 3B...
which means more than fielding a position. You have to HIT too.
Fontenot is fine as a fielder at 3B. Fox is fine as a hitter. Vitters may be fine as a fielder, but he’s not going to be able to hit.
If you’re going to recommend a replacement for the next month, it has to be a potential upgrade over what we have already for the next month. Vitters is not that. He hopefully will EVENTUALLY be that. But he’s not that right now.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
You lack a fundamental understanding of how the draft and farm system works.
This isn’t the NBA… kids can’t go from 8th period french to the starting 5. There is a process, it is in place for a reason, and to ignore it is… well… ignorant.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Agreed...
amazingly, the fact that NO ONE has agreed with him/her hasn’t clued him/her into that fact.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
I don't lack any fundamentals in this game, boy.
I’m talking about fielding a position, not hitting.
The dude is a 3rd baseman, bring him up to play 3rd. Hell, bring Scales back. The whole thing right now is lacking a 3rd baseman. We have them in the minors, no need to go after Tehen
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Gotta do more than field the position to be an upgrade...
Fontenot is fielding fine at 3B. It’s the fact that his bat is mediocre that’s the problem. Fox is fine as a hitter. The question is his glove (though he’s looked fine in limited chances). Vitters may be fine defensively, but he’s a downgrade offensively from both Fontenot and Fox at the moment. Thus, it would be a mistake to call him up.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Ok, Southern...
..i agree with that assesment, that he’s a downgrade offensively, but I don’t want us to try and get another 3rd baseman outside of the organization.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Then go with Fox/Fontenot...
that combination should be fine for the next month.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
You are missing (or choosing to ignore) the point... development of a player is in place for a reason...
… and calling me “boy” like i’m some idiot as everyone else agrees with me is unlikely to help your case.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
then don't say I'm ignorant.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I didn't, i said ignoring the farm system and its value in a players devolpment is.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
I'm not ignoring it..
I think you’re just so hell bent on being right here, that you’re failing to see any of my points.
He plays 3rd, we need a 3rd baseman for a little while, and he’s in our organization.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
And you aren't thinking long term...
… if we are willing to have a crappy third baseman who isn’t well equipped for major league level play yet on our roster, why risk destroying the confidence of one of our best prospects in the process?
Do you really think if he wasn’t ALREADY prepared to play 3rd for the cubs, he wouldn’t be here? Are you just smarter than everyone else here and everyone working for the Cubs?
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
How can you say it "will ruin his confidence?" Are you his brother or something?
Calling someone up should give them all the confidence in the world. It means your team thinks you can get it done.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
What good will calling him up do?
He’s not ready. The organization doesn’t think he’s ready. Nobody else here thinks he’s ready. He probably doesn’t even think he’s ready himself.
What would calling him up now provide for the team?
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
A 3rd baseman that can field the ball.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
We have that already...
his name is Mike Fontenot. And Fox seems to be doing an okay job of it himself.
Further, fielding at 3B is not one of our bigger problems at the moment. Hitting is.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
I don't get to watch every game
Has Fontenot been that awful?
I didn’t think so….
Allie - June 23, 2009
actually
he’s been pretty good, considering. The loss isn’t Fonty at third, it’s the black hole at second.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
And a ticking clock in service time
dr stabbingworth - June 23, 2009
and Andres Blanco
can field at second base. But I bet he hits better at an MLB level than Vitters would.
drewishdrewid - June 23, 2009
Maybe it'd give him confidence for about a minute...
… until some MLB pitcher made him look foolish, question his approach, adjust his swing, on and on.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
There's a very practical reason for not bringing up a player before he's ready
and a prime example is pitching for the Tigers tonight. Edwin Jackson was brought up by The Dodgers before he was ready and ended up out of options. The Dodgers had no choice but to trade him since they were trying to win and he still needed time to develop in the minor leagues.
The Rays weren’t winning and had the luxury to develop Jackson in the major leagues instead of the minors where he belonged.
Jackson has now realized his potential as a major league pitcher. I bet the Dodgers could use him now instead of sending out pitchers like Jeff Weaver. If they hadn’t brought up Jackson and has allowed him to progress through the minors and added him to the 40 man roster after 3 years in their system, he couldn’t have been out of options before he was ready.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
And you're failing to see our point...
He’s a downgrade over what we already have.
Pointing out guys in our organization that play 3B is pointless. Pointing out reasonable alternatives is.
We’re arguing that Vitters is not a reasonable alternative. You’ve already seemingly accepted that Vitters is a downgrade, so why are you continuing to push it?
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
I've got both of your points
and they’re well received, and understood but not enough to change my opinion.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Well, I'm sorry that your opinion is wrong
Because in this case, it really is.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Please.
The kid is not going to be 20 years old until August. It’s ridiculous to put him on a team that’s in playoff contention and think he could contribute.
Think ruination along Gary Scott lines.
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Gary Scott?!?!
Why, Gary Scott could be the next Kevin Orie!
……..or is it the other way around?……………..
;-)
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
LOL
Which came first, the Scott or the Orie?
(In this case, the Scott.)
Al Yellon - June 23, 2009
Seriously, though.
I like your sentiment.
I would love to see a top prospect get a few Major-League innings every once in a while, as opposed to the usual call-ups of guys with 5.00+ ERAs or .200 BAs who have no expectations behind them.
I don’t think he’s ready full-time, but I, too, would like to see him have a cup-of-coffee this year. Sometimes the top prospects deserve an occasional call-up, too.
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
The thing is, he's SO far from being MLB ready...
Even top prospects don’t get call-ups from low A ball. I can’t think of the last prospect (on any team) who hadn’t at least seen AA before getting called up.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Point.
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
People have been drafted..
…and went straight to the pros. I’m not saying bring him up for the rest of the season, but just until ARam comes back.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
And those people are almost exclusively seasoned college players...
Vitters is not remotely ready to play at the MLB level. He has not even reached A+ ball yet. He’s doing great, but he’s only playing at the lowest full-season league level.
Calling him up right now is not a good idea, and wouldn’t really help the team.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
The infield is the same size in A ball as it is in the bigs
The ball is the same size. The distances are the same. Only difference is the players. He can play 3rd, so bring him up.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
The difference in players is an ENORMOUS difference...
The quality of pitching at the MLB level is so far above what Vitters is seeing. If you can’t understand this, it’s pointless to continue the discussion.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Then don't respond to me...
….I don’t want your opinion on if it’s pointless or not.
People have been bitching that Fontenot can’t play 3rd, right? So if our top prospect is a 3rd baseman, let him take a crack at it.
He’s played enough baseball in his life to learn how to adjust to a curveball, slider, changeup, etc. The fact that MLB pitching is above A ball, well duh, and I’m positive Vitters knows that. He can make the adjustment.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I won't respond if you'll stop posting nonsensical suggestions...
Being our top prospect doesn’t mean he’s our most-ready prospect. He’s not going to do as well as Fontenot. Why overwhelm the kid? What would that prove?
Would you have a really talented high school chemistry student fill in at a nuclear power plant? That’s essentially what you’re suggesting, because like the chemistry student (who has tons of potential but lacks the training), Vitters doesn’t have the training or the development to perform in the MLB.
Further, we have a decent hitter in Fox who can platoon with Fontenot at 3B. There’s no reason to stunt Vitters’ develop by exposing him to pitching that is well beyond his level.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Ok, your comparing apples and oranges here. Nuclear power plant compared to baseball?
Come on, lets just pretend you didn’t use that comparison.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
It's an apt comparison...
The high school kid isn’t ready to do the job. Neither is Vitters. Both will likely EVENTUALLY be more than capable of doing the job, AFTER they get the appropriate training and development.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
When your parents taught you to drive...
… did they take you to a local parking lot deserted of cars so you could learn the fundamentals, or did they drop you on 90/94 at 5:15 on a Friday afternoon?
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
No, i didn't learn in a parking lot that was deserted of cars.
I started out on residental street. You have to be prepared to stop right?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Fine. Your residencial street / my local church parking lot is AA ball.
90/94 is the big leagues.
Either way, the metaphor stands. You don’t shove somebody in the deep end.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
I don't know what the 90/94 is but I'm assuming its an interstate, so if
interstate is the big leagues, then within 1 year of learning how to drive, i was driving on the big leagues.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Good lord, IT IS A METAPHOR!!!
It’s not supposed to be exactly the same in every way.
You weren’t ready to go from not driving to the Interstate, just like Vitters isn’t ready to go from Low A ball to the majors.
Putting you on the Interstate before you had the proper training would have been a bad idea, just like calling Vitters up before he has the proper training (i.e., A+ ball and AA ball at least) would be a bad idea.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
yeah, I understand it's a metaphor
and not a good one either, because it’s comparing two totally different things, like i stated above.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
No, it's actually a pretty decent one...
you’re just not getting it (or choosing to be stubborn and not accept it).
Yes, they are different things. That doesn’t mean the metaphor is not applicable.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
Knocking the metaphor is sort of silly...
… being that the straight facts, no ‘word trickery’ aside, didn’t seem to get the point across.
Everybody, from the managers and staff of a major league baseball team, down to little old ignorant 2 years of tee ball me, seems to get it: THE KID IS NOT READY.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Ok Andrew, you can stop commenting now
I understand, and have understood this whole time, that you think Vitters isn’t ready.
Point taken, now move on before you pop a blood vessel.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
It's not just Andrew though..
nobody else thinks Vitters is ready to be a useful player in MLB right now.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
again, I understand that no one thinks he's ready
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Its not that i think it...
… it is a fact, and one that is recognized not only by me, but by those running the organization we cheer for. The only person who feels he’s ready is you, and if you didn’t want to continue to hear that opinion refuted, you are free to stop proclaiming it at any time.
And really, let me worry about my blood pressure. I’ve got everything under control. Appreciate your concern.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
I've ready your posts about Vitters, Andrew
and I can see by your responses that you’ve read mine.
I’m 100% positive that Vitters won’t be called up this year, exactly 100%.
I was just stating that Aram is out, and Vitters plays 3rd, and is projected to be our 3rd baseman of the future, so….
I am happy that you have your blood pressure under control, I really am. No sarcasm intended
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
ready=read
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I guess i'm still missing the purpose of you saying "bring up Vitters" then.
If you have agreed that he’s a downgrade offensively vs who we’ve already got, and stated that you 100% know that he won’t get called up, why were we having this debate? He’s our 3rd baseman of the future, and that doesn’t help us today. I’m seriously wondering, not mocking.
Seems like a pretty convoluted and painful way to convince anyone that we don’t want Tehan, a point that i happen to agree with.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Because he can field a ground ball
and make the throw to first.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
I can do that.
Put me in coach! I’m ready!
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
you might be able to do that
in your little league, but it’s much different in the Bigs.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
And therein lies my point.
He might be able to do it in the farm system, but it is much different in the bigs.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
And again, we have other guys...
who can do that. Fontenot is a good defensive player at 3B. Fox has actually been adequate there too.
If the only reason to call up Vitters is because he can defend at 3B, that’s not really any reason to call him up.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
People were ripping Fontenot at 3rd
they didn’t like him playing that position. I was suggesting an alternative.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 24, 2009
The field is the same size, so I disagree
with you that it’s much different. Maybe somewhat different.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 24, 2009
90/94 is an absolute mess of an expressway in Chicago...
… and you are nitpicking semantics in an effort to defend your failed idea.
It takes time to learn. Driving, swimming, running a nuclear reactor, hitting major league pitching. All those things take different amounts of time. Cool. Good point, man. Doesn’t disprove the fact that bringing up an unprepared student in ANY of those areas can lead to disastrous results for both the student and those around him as he tries to learn.
Your idea is asinine. Let it go.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Well as much as I enjoyed our "chat" Andrew and Southern..
…it’s time for me to go home (been debating with you guys from work.) I respect both of your baseball minds and like seeing your points of view and will continue to read your insights on our beloved Cubs.
Until next time……cheers!!
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
Good day, sir.
Stay cool out there. I took a vacation day, ventured up to the roof deck of my building a bit ago, and felt like i was gonna melt.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Bring up a player before they are ready can ruin them.
The Royals made the mistake of bringing Zach Greinke to the majors when he was very young, long before he was ready and it almost ruined his career. (He was drafted out of high school.) He came close to walking away from baseball.
Two years ago the Royals brought up Alex Gordon and he was drafted out of College. He also did not spend much time in the minor leagues. He struggled mightily in his rookie year and still has not realized the potential of his talent (he’s hurt right now).
Honestly, I can’t think of a team that has brought up a position player 1 1/2 years out of high school. There have been a few pitchers in recent years (Kershaw and Porcello) but I can’t think of a single position player.
Honestly, I can’t think of a team that has brought up a postion player 1 1/2 years out of high school. There have been a few pitchers in recent years (Kershaw and Porcello) but I can’t think of a single position player.
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
Be safer on 90/94 as cars won't be traveling as fast, but
it see your point.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Wait
You’re saying cars can move on 90/94?
That’s crazy talk
chitownhawkeye - June 23, 2009
In this metaphor...
… we want Gathright back. He cold make a mockery of all those still-standing cars.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
HA!
cowsarecool220 - June 23, 2009
speaking of 90/94
near Madison it’s a mess, he caused some of the concrete to buckle in a few places.
This fact is about as relevant to the discussion as Hawks reasons (or lack of) to bring up Vitters.
Madison Cub Fan - June 23, 2009
The desire for Vitters is for him to excel and possibly sniff AA this year.
He’s barely a year removed from metal bats and is a stud prospect because he is on track in his development as a stud prospect.
He is not Beckham as Beckham played in college and is three years older and hit .299 at AA before his 28 At Bats in AAA where he hit .414.
Vitters is hitting barely over .300 as he grows accustom to A ball. Beckham is hitting .196 in the majors.
The Cubs have ruined the past few can’t miss prospects, let’s give the organization time to finally develop one.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
Saying "ignore me"
doesn’t make sense when you say everyone who disagrees with you obviously knows nothing about baseball, which you have implied several times today.
He’s not ready and in order for him to be the stud he COULD BE he needs more time.
Allie - June 23, 2009
show me where i said someone doesn't know baseball.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 23, 2009
He's 19
And not ready for the big show yet.
Allie - June 23, 2009
And how do we know this?
Oh yeah, he’d be in AA having a look.
N Oakley - June 23, 2009
DeRosa...
…would be great.
I fail to see how acquiring Teahen would be “adding a bat” though.
50-ish RBIs in a full year, <20 HRs, .270-ish BA….., .220 with RISP…..
sounds like John Q. Utility-player to me.
However DeRosa instantly makes the offense, and the team, better. I’d love to see him back here……
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
I have no problem speculating on who the Cubs should acquire but...
Let’s pretend that we can’t acquire anyone. Ultimately, that’s how Pinella has to operate. He must assume a player is not going to fall out of the sky and deal with the pieces he has and figure out how to best position them on the Chess Board. In other words, I don’t think the answer to “what can we do with the players we have…” should be “let’s go get Teahan.”
In my humble opinion going out and getting a Teahan or DeRosa bails out Soriano, Soto, Bradley, Fontenot and everyone else sucking eggs right now. They are not being paid to hit 30-40 points under their career averages.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 23, 2009
All things considered...
…I’m expecting that the Cubs cannot make any real moves anyway.
I mean, you might see a bullpen arm come here or something, but ownership issues, salary, etc. lead me to believe the team is set.
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
What are you talking abotu anyway...
….Bradley is getting occasional hits now, and is on pace for over 30 RBIs this year.
What do you mean sucking eggs?
(sarcasm intended)
The Jade Scorpion - June 23, 2009
heres a trade thought
Harden + miles + hart
for Peralta and Herges from the indians.
peralta plays 3rd and short. Put him at 3rd now, move mikey back to 2nd until ram ram gets back. Then move Peralta to short, theriot to 2nd (where mikey can be the utility guy again), and have ramirez back where he belongs.
and with herges we’d get a decent, if ageing, arm. (plus, his family are cardinal fans, so that would just make me go run and buy a herges jersey)
laidbackliam - June 23, 2009
I vote for this trade thought to remain a thought.
santoswoodenlegs - June 23, 2009
I vote we not get in the habit of calling our 3rd baseman 'ram ram'.
AndrewJStone - June 23, 2009
Why would the Indians do this?
They’d be getting only three months of Harden, a year of an unnecessary player (Miles), and a reliever.
SouthernCub - June 23, 2009
hey
if it works on Nintendo then it’ll work in real life.
Live with it. :)
jxmetal1 - June 23, 2009
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