There have been many discussions on this site about the possibility of reacquiring Mark DeRosa. It won't happen now, as DeRosa was traded to the Cardinals last night for reliever Chris Perez. (Thanks to BCB reader AndrewJStone for getting this FanPost up on the deal while I was sleeping.)
Despite accusations to the contrary, I have never said that Mark DeRosa is Babe Ruth, Ted Williams and Henry Aaron wrapped into one. What DeRosa is, however, is a good player who can play 2B, 3B, RF and LF (and 1B if pressed to service), all of them competently. Further, all reports indicate he is a fine player to have in any team's clubhouse, for those of us who consider clubhouse chemistry to be an important, if unmeasurable statistically, factor in a team's makeup.
What gets me is what St. Louis gave up to get him. Chris Perez and a PTBNL. You have to be kidding me -- Perez, who will be 24 on Wednesday, is a good young reliever who throws hard, but is no sure thing. You're telling me the Cubs couldn't have matched this with Jose Ascanio and Jeff Stevens? Or thrown in a third player?
DeRosa is having a good year, fairly typical of him since he became a fulltime player, though his OPS (.799) is a little lower than the .824 OPS he posted in his two years as a Cub. His 50 RBI ranked 11th in the American League and he could have settled down 2B and 3B until Aramis Ramirez returned. Obviously, the deal strengthens the Cubs' division rival, and that's what really bothers me, since I believe DeRosa is a helpful player and anything making a division rival stronger hurts the Cubs. And the Cubs will have to wait only another 12 days to see him -- the Cardinals are at Wrigley for a four-game series starting July 10 (including the makeup game for the 4/19 rainout, which will be the afternoon part of a day-night DH on 7/12).
Jim Hendry, you have failed us -- I believe you could have matched or bettered this deal. It's now up to you to get the Cubs someone similar -- Mark Teahen would fit the description -- before this season starts turning south.
2 recs | 188 comments
Very intresting
I hope this doesn’t make Jim think he has to make a trade tomorrow. Please Jim no KNEE-JERK TRADES!!
miamicanes - June 28, 2009
No, but the gauntlet has been thrown.
A team ahead of the Cubs has improved themselves. The Cubs need to get going. Agreed to not make a deal just to do it, but do something that improves the team.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
True
I’m just trying to think of what kind of leverage we have to trade with. Without giving up the few promising prospects we have.
miamicanes - June 28, 2009
We are in "win now" mode.
Prospects were going to have to go in any DeRo deal. Some good young player or players will have to go to get any help here.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
This reminds me of Sabathia last season
Everyone started ranting over Hendry must do something now or the whole season is over.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
Exactly
I hope he just finds the right move when it becomes possible. We are only 3.5 out.
miamicanes - June 28, 2009
Except the Cubs were actually good last season
That’s one huge difference.
propheteer - June 28, 2009
Agreed.
I was seeing some REDIC suggestions on here last night… Wells for DeRo, Marshall for DeRo, Bradly / Miles / Stevens for DeRo. At the time i wrote it off as people being drunk at the keyboard (it was Saturday night afterall), but the Cards, in netting him for Chris Perez and a PTBNL just proved why the average BCB reader isn’t qualified to be running this team and the calls for Hendry’s head are premature.
A move is needed, if for no other reason than to shake up the teams chemistry and plug any injury created holes in the infield. Doing this for the cost of some of our most promising players isn’t necessary. There are better options.
AndrewJStone - June 28, 2009
see this
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/107859-major-league-baseballs-30-general-managers-whos-the-best/show_full
kcjones - June 28, 2009
and this
http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=2246
kcjones - June 28, 2009
And this....
`http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-remington/ranking-baseballs-general_b_160456.html
He’s never mentioned as a top tier or even good GM…though….to be fair…he’s never mendtioned as the worst GM either…but the Cubs have way too much of “IT” to settlee for a mediocre GM
kcjones - June 28, 2009
He had a pretty good one last year
when he picked up Harden for some of our throwaways right after the Brewers got CC
LT - June 28, 2009
Don't worry cubs fans
In reality the Cardinals are only marginally better.
Skip Schumaker was actually doing fairly well for them at 2B:
* Avg .302 * HR 3 * RBI 21 * Runs 42 * SB 2
If anything, DeRosa will play 3rd (where Green and Thurston have been awful) until Troy Glaus comes back.
Chris Perez was considered their closer of the future. Perez is 24, DeRosa is 34. Kind of a gamble if you ask me.
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
Ascanio is not Perez
Chris Perez is considered a potential closer. Just look at 2008 in AAA:
Ascanio: 54 hits and 58 K’s in 54 innings.
Perez: 18 hits and 38 K’s in 25 innings (plus time in StL)
Suggesting multiple players is the same silly argument of quantity over quality. The Cubs do not have a near-ready prospect at the level of Perez.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
Not only that
Current Elias player rankings
Chris Perez “type B” 60.380
Jose Ascanio NR 13.619
Its not even remotely close.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16831006/Rankings-062609
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
Mark DeRosa's farewell message from Cleveland ;-)
ballhawk - June 28, 2009
Someone suggested Marco Scutaro in another thread.
In addition to Mark Teahen, Scutaro might be a useful pickup. He’s having a career year — why not try to take advantage of it?
Scutaro hits right handed, so Lou might not be on board with it. Teahen’s quite a bit younger, too, so he’d be my first choice.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
Hopefully the sesason thus far will have cured Lou of his left-handed obsession.
AndrewJStone - June 28, 2009
You'd think.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
And a team with a better record than the Cubs and
2 out of the AL wild card will ask for who?
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
And for bullpen help...
… may I suggest calling the A’s and inquiring about Brad Ziegler?
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
AFTER ALL THAT.... CHRIS PEREZ IS ALL THEY GOT?
Are you kidding me?
Why the heck couldn’t we have topped that?
SackMan - June 28, 2009
Perez and a PTBNL.
I still think we could have topped it. In any case, it’s done. We need a bat. I suggested Teahen. Any better ideas?
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
BRIAN ROBERTS 4 EVAR!!!
digitalbenjamin - June 28, 2009
laugh all you want, we could still use him
bren - June 28, 2009
Yea, I know.
Just making fun. I’d love to have him manning 2B, but we all know it ain’t gunna happen :(
digitalbenjamin - June 28, 2009
I'm just shocked.
There was a lot of interest for DeRosa… Yankees, Mets, Cards, Cubs, even Oakland. And, it was printed that Oakland was laughing at their asking price. And, now… he gets dealt for Perez and a PTBNL? You’re telling me 3 or 4 other teams couldn’t have made a better offer?
SackMan - June 28, 2009
As for other ideas. Yeah, Teahen is out there. And I like Ty Wigginton.
But, it’s mute now. Jake Fox will be in the lineup everyday unless he stops hitting. And most of his time will come at 3B and corner OF.
SackMan - June 28, 2009
It’s moot, not mute :)
smash! - June 28, 2009
Fox works for me as long as he keeps hitting.
Problem: he can’t play 2B.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
Freddy Sanchez.
He could platoon with Fontenot, and is decent defensively. You put those two together, and you’ll get more production out of 2nd than you would have with DeRosa. Now that we have Fox and Hoffpaiur backing up 3rd, 1st, and the OF… we really don’t need DeRosa for those roles, either.
Shawn Domagal-Goldman - June 28, 2009
Is Sanchez
a platoon type player?
LT - June 28, 2009
He's an everyday player
But we could use Fontenot to spell him.
Pre - June 28, 2009
sanchez is expensive. and idk if pirates would deal in their division
jesus christos - June 28, 2009
They have traded many times with the Cubs before
LT - June 28, 2009
Jim Hendry
must have had his reasons on why he didn’t make a move for DeRosa. I can’t say I understand them, but I’d be open to hearing some speculation from you all. (I’m trying to sooth myself here…)
Ideas anyone? Was it cash? Another trade possibility? Prospects? Something else?
digitalbenjamin - June 28, 2009
His name is Aramis
The Cards probalby won’t see Glaus this year, so they needed DeRosa. Aramis will be back soon. 2nd base is crowded as heck.
BTW, trading Ascanio and Stevens for a few months of DeRosa would be downright foolish. Both could log a few hundred innings of relief for the Cubs at a very very low cost over the next few years. I think the Cardinals giving up Perez for this run means they truly believe they can go far this postseason. I’m not so sure I agree, and a guy like Perez is a lot to give up for a rental utility guy with a multi-million dollar salary.
Harry Pavlidis - June 28, 2009
valid points...
but even though Aramis coming back makes 2B crowded, the combined production out of the 2B position this year for the Cubs is horrid. I think it’s around last in the NL (can someone back me up on this?).
So in my mind 2B needs to be addressed as well…
digitalbenjamin - June 28, 2009
yes
On the Fox telecast yesterday, the Cubs were either last or next-to-last in offensive production from second base.
vonde6 - June 28, 2009
At this point, I think it's a moot point...
Fox is showing enough with the bat and glove to fill in until Ramirez is ready (which is theoretically coming somewhat soon). And when Ramirez comes back, Fox can be the backup 3B, LF, RF, and 1B (with Hoffpauir available at LF, RF, and 1B too).
SouthernCub - June 28, 2009
I still think part of his reluctance is that he traded DeRo away in the first place
…and it would be a tacit admission of failure on his part. Just MHO.
Sorta like pursuing an ex-wife when after trying to get another date you realize that you’re too much of a loser to get anyone else :-)
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
been there done that :-p
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
So... let the record show.
The Indians just traded Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and John Gaub for Chris Perez and a PTBNL.
Stevens 2.52 ERA in AAA
Gaub 2.83 ERA with 40 Ks in 28.2 IP in AA
Archer 2.19 ERA with 66 Ks in 53.1 IP in A
SackMan - June 28, 2009
I'm happy with that perspective
El Borto - June 28, 2009
Gaub was just promoted to Iowa
I would say it looks hopeful that at least one of these guys is going to be of help.
Doggie Stalker - June 28, 2009
I can't believe they got him for that.
I just can’t believe that’s all it took. After all the sweating, writing and complaining we’ve done on this site about DeRosa and this is the deal? Unfreakingbelieveable.
mrcubsfan - June 28, 2009
There were those who felt all tht sweating, writing and complaning were unfreakingbelieveable all along.
Again, to be clear: DeRo is good and would have helped our team for the next three months.
But he was unlikely to solve all our problems, and we would have had to give up something we sorely need (young pitching, likely bullpen) to get something else we only kind of need ‘till Aramis gets back, and we’d then lose at the end of the season.
AndrewJStone - June 28, 2009
So since Cleveland is selling, who can the Cubs get from their roster to make us better?
Zeke - June 28, 2009
Is Kerry Wood available?
ronsanto10 - June 28, 2009
God I hope not
Chris Perez and PTBNL would be too much for him
Worf - June 28, 2009
I heard Mark Prior is...
cubsnlinux - June 28, 2009
no noo…. he had another setback
jesus christos - June 28, 2009
What does anyone think about
Peralta?
I hate the deal, you know DeRosa will have some real key moments for the Cards.
Lets get a win on Sunday.
Grockcubs - June 28, 2009
Mr. Hendry, the ball is now in your court.
CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry - June 28, 2009
Chris Perez = Guzman?
Seems to be the best comparison to me. Would you trade Guzman and a PTBNL for DeRosa? I don’t think I would.
kanderber - June 28, 2009
Comparison
Perez is 24, highly touted future closer.
Guzman is 27 with a history of arm injuries
Still…I wouldn’t trade Guzman for DeRosa either.
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
Well, the Cards feel that Motte has better upside potential than Perez.
And Perez seems to have major control problems.
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
Motte has had some Marmol-like control problems.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
I disagree
Motte is 4 years older than Perez. Perez has the upside.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
Request
Hendry could have put, somewhere in DeRo’s contract, that he can not be traded to a team in the NL in the 2009 season when he shipped him to Cleveland. The Indians wouldn’t think anything of it, because at the time of they trade, they had no intentions of even thinking about trading him in the future.
CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry - June 28, 2009
I don't think the PA allows that
You can’t restrict a player’s movements just to cover your own ass
Worf - June 28, 2009
Oh please. You obviously don't know anything
about contact clauses.
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
It's sad to say, Al
but I think the season’s already turned south.
Emelie - June 28, 2009
Yeah, the Cardinals make a marginal upgrade
meanwhile in the 2nd half we get Aramis back plus much better offensive production from Soriano and Bradley (guaranteed). The Season is nowhere near “south”
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
I hope you're right.
Emelie - June 28, 2009
It's more than a marginal upgrade...
Look at the crap that they’ve been running out at 3B this year — Joe Thurston, Nick Stavinoah, and most recently Khalil Greene. All three have been very bad this year.
kanderber - June 28, 2009
We get Aramis back
And I’m confident Soriano will improve
I have no confidence Bradley will.
However, I do think Fukudome won’t drop as hard this year. I also think Soto is bound to improve.
Worf - June 28, 2009
I'd be thrilled if Geo maintains his June production for the rest of the year
OPS .932
El Borto - June 28, 2009
Not really a marginal upgrade....and look at what he's doing so far this year not to mention that...
DeRosa is just what the Cards (and Cubs) need. He has hit lefties over his career (.305/.375/.488), he can play 2nd, 3rd, and the OF, and has averaged 3 WAR for the last 3 seasons
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
Derosa OPS+ is 105
El Borto - June 28, 2009
WAY more than a marginal upgrade...
CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry - June 28, 2009
Also, consider these interesting stats showing what a difference a DeRo makes:
For the season:
Cubs HR leader (Alfonso Soriano): 14 HR.
Cubs RBI leader (DLee) 39 RBI.
DeRosa: 13 HR and 50 RBIs.
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
And if you think DeRosa's going to continue
that pace, you’re nuts, or just don’t know much about baseball.
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
Ha ha....not very nice of you to resort to ad hominem arguments there....
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
you keep talking like that
saying that people don’t know much about baseball.
Please stop. This isn’t a game of one-up-manship.
drewishdrewid - June 28, 2009
Thank you for that, Drew.
CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry - June 28, 2009
If you haven't noticed
that darn AL is a hitters league. AL teams are demolishing their NL opponents right now.
For the NL’s sake, unfortunately – someday, it’s going to have to take on the DH or be left in the dust. The Phillies may be current World Champs, but the Rays were inferior, as opposed to other AL teams. Just compare ALL teams. If you were told to pick the best team — would you really pick an NL team? The Dodgers may be hot right now….but…I’d take any of the top AL teams over them. No other team in the NL strikes you as very good, but many in the AL do.
The Rays just won at the right time. And, De Rosa’s #’s will come down with the Cards, as they would have with the Cubs.
I’ll let the “DH for the NL” be discussed another time. This fan base has more than enough on its’ mind right now.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
Of course you're correct
DeRosa will help the Cardinals win an extra 10 games they otherwise would have lost….what was I thinking?
Neifi Puppy - June 28, 2009
Where'd you get the picture of Ryan Braun?
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
That is too funny!!
That is a good one, I thought I was the only one who noticed Braun’s big a@# eyes.
byrdi68 - June 29, 2009
I don't think
the Cubs need a DeRosa-like player now that Fox is playing competently at 3rd and in the outfield andn is producing offensively.
What they need is a second baseman so they can drop Miles, have Blanco replace Freel permanently, and get a productive bat in the lineup (and I don’t care why hand he hits with). Roberts, Uggla, whatever. Get someone who will produce consistently, and someone who will bump Sori out of the leadoff spot would be nice.
tomas21 - June 28, 2009
Right, and DeRosa could have been that guy.
That said, Mark Teahen might be that guy.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
i've just spent an amusing hour
reading the cleveland and st. louis boards. i’ll let you go look if you want.
the PTBNL will be legitimate. shapiro is fairly good at getting value for his ‘futures’. both boards list potential PTBNL candidates. would you be cool with the trade if it involved starlin castro or jay jackson as the PTBNL?
the st. louis board is most happy that we’re pissed.
these trades will be analyzed for years to come, either way. st. louis board leans to ‘good to great trade if we make the postseason. really bad if the prospect is good and we (stl) miss the playoffs.’
tim815 - June 28, 2009
So, the STL board says:
“If things are good we’ll be happy, if they aren’t we won’t.”
AndrewJStone - June 28, 2009
sounds familiar
LT - June 28, 2009
On the PTBNL
Fox Sports says it could be Jess Todd and/or Francisco Samuel are on the prospective list from which Cleveland will choose. (Link)
Bill Potter - June 28, 2009
The real pathetic thing
If this trade had been made right after the Indians/Cubs series when we were on an upswing there would be a lot less outcry and gnashing of teeth.
All this talk that the season has gone south is silly. Regardless of Aramis coming back or Soto getting hot, this team will win 4 in a row again and close the already small gap between us and first place. Maybe we’ll win 8 of 10. Maybe the Cards will lose 4 in a row or 8 of 10.
Christ, we lose a few games and the Cards get a decent player and you’d think its the end of the world
El Borto - June 28, 2009
The Cubs are like ALL NL teams.
Flawed. Right now, they look badly flawed. Only the Dodgers seem to have most of their parts working. We’ll see if Manny makes them better.
I think if I’m a Mets fan, I’m even more pissed. They have nothing to show for all of their moves the past few years. At least — the very least — the Cubs have 2 division titles.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
Gaub/Archer/Stevens
Who’s to say that trade was made to try to get Peavy? When you think about it, we have alot of payroll invested in our starters (Harden, Dempster, Lilly, Zambrano) and can’t possibly keep all of them moving forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if these guys were obtained with the hope that one or more would eventually make the starting rotation. I am NOT saying they are as good as what we have, but that may have been Hendry’s plan.
jballgame - June 28, 2009
No longer shall they be referred to as "Cubs"
“Deer in the Headlights” is what this organization is.
thermal54 - June 28, 2009
If DeRosa had a say in this................
he probably didn’t want to return to the Cubs. It’s like remarrying an ex-wife, not a great idea.
Clutche - June 28, 2009
As long as the checks come
most players don’t care where they play. You are assuming WAY too much.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
he said he didnt like the idea of being traded to cards and said being a cub was the best 2 years of his career
i doubt hed mind returning
jesus christos - June 28, 2009
I agree
sue369 - June 28, 2009
I'm a bigger fan
of DeRo then just about anyone. Ironically, yesterday I had my Cubs Dero shirt on all day by sheer coincidence. My wife makes fun of me for my DeRo mancrush.
That being said, I really don’t think a move is called for unless something drastic presents itself like Brian Roberts. I know its been gone over time and time again for the last 2.5 years, but the “drastic” move that is needed is simple. Move Soriano to 2B and down to 7th in or so in the lineup. We’re getting Aram back in a couple weeks, that’s like picking up a huge bat. We go from Font-like production to Aram-like production.
Until then, Fox at 3B is working just fine. Hoff/Fox in LF will be a good combo once Aram is back. That basically removes a huge weak spot from the lineup (Font/Miles/Blanco) and removes the .225 hitter from the leadoff spot.
Send out a daily lineup something like:
Theriot SS
Dome CF
Lee 1B
Aram 3B
Bradley RF
Fox LF
Soriano 2B
Soto C
Are you telling me that lineup isn’t the drastic change that is needed, and that it wouldn’t make up for whatever defensive deficiencies are caused by having Soriano at 2B? He’s horrible in LF anyway, so there’s little to no dropoff out there.
I wish DeRo was never traded, but him going to the Cardinals doesn’t call for some drastic move at this point. Just shuffle things around within and stop being stubborn, Lou.
paulucla - June 28, 2009
I'm not sure I like Sori playing 2nd base. How about trading Sori for Roberts? :-)
zevkalman - June 28, 2009
Since Lou hasn't made any drastic changes by now...............
I doubt that he ever will
Clutche - June 28, 2009
Yeah, I agree
If he didn’t make the move during the last month, he’s never going to do it. Which annoys me about as much as Hendry trading DeRo in the first place. Lou and Hendry really accomplished an amazing thing, they managed to destroy a 97 win team under some delusion that our playoff failures could have been solved with a lefty or two more in the lineup (while having no interest in solving the 1-29 or whatever he was in the playoffs problem in the leadoff spot).
paulucla - June 28, 2009
Correction
Soriano was 3-29 the last two years in the playoffs and has a career .263 OBP in in 186 career PA’s in the postseason. Our playoff problem wasn’t a lack of lefties, it was a lack of OBP production and speed in the leadoff spot.
paulucla - June 28, 2009
Lou and Hendry gambled on weakening the 2B spot
and unfortunately it’s become a problem area. Even when ARam returns and Fontenot goes back to 2B, I’m not convinced that the troika of Fonty/Miles/Blanco can perform acceptably enough. Especially when you consider the subpar performances to date from the OFers.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
Lou's philosophy on managing............
I just make the lineup, treat them like men and get out of their way. WOW
Clutche - June 28, 2009
What should his philosophy be, Clutche?
carmen_fanzone - June 28, 2009
Start with people skills for one.............
calling a player a POS.
Be creative………..You’re better off making a move that you think makes sense than sitting around and not making a decision i.e. like the hit and-run, double steal, and the suicide squeeze. Lou doesn’t do much of this.
Motivate……..does this team appear motivated to you?
Clutche - June 28, 2009
And Hendry destroyed what, now?
A team that rolled over and played dead 2 consecutive years in the post-season?
If Hendry had done nothing I guarantee half of this board would be yelling at him for standing pat, and doing nothing.
Yes, it would have been…Fire Hendry! He did nothing in the off-season to help this team!!
If this team played to the numbers they have individually posted in the past, there would be no controversy. However, most are having bad seasons. It happens.
As opposed to many good teams with players that have career years — the opposite may be happening to the Cubs in 2009.
There’s no way anybody could have predicted this. (Along with injuries.) The only observation you could have made is that Bradley has been troubled. That’s the only legit, factual assesment one could make.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
+1 I agree wholeheartedly with this
The atmosphere after the playoff face-plant last year was not one for standing pat. This is the the most deluded kind of hindsight.
vonde6 - June 28, 2009
this linesup
is not the drastic change that is needed. Sori at second base, oy gevalt.
drewishdrewid - June 28, 2009
this linesup
is not the drastic change that is needed. Sori at second base, oy gevalt.
drewishdrewid - June 28, 2009
Good salesmanship on John Mozeliak's part
All it took was Perez and a PTBNL for DeRo, so he must’ve convinced the Tribe that Perez was the second coming of Sabathia.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
Well considering Perez is a reliever I doubt it
Sorry to spoil a good rant with facts.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
What I meant by "second coming of Sabathia"
I’m well aware that Perez is a reliever. The point that was obviously lost on you is that Mozeliak did a good job selling the Tribe on accepting only one good young player up front.
Sorry to spoil a sarcastic retort with insight.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
Touche
I will take the quality of a Perez over the quantity that so many here are spouting.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
You make a good point about Perez
He is a quality youngster (2:1 K to BB ratio), and Cleveland badly needs to remake their bullpen. Not sure if any of the Cubs young relievers (either with the parent club or down on the farm) had the appeal of Perez – maybe if Mozeliak is really good, he said to Shapiro “Compare Perez’s numbers to those of the pitchers the Cubs want to give you”.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
Al..........
I’d like to add that Lou has failed us as much or more than Hendry.
Clutche - June 28, 2009
Agreed.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
I'm so disgusted with Hendry and Lou
I’m not allowed to post the words I have for them here. Hendry let us down AGAIN. First by trading DeRo and then by NOT getting him back. He had to know DeRo could be available — it’s his job. If he didn’t know, he should be fired — along with Lou.
I’m so spitting mad. Don’t come near me. You may get a knuckle sandwich from me.
No Southern Belle - June 28, 2009
Spit and/or swing away...
it takes two to trade. Ever think that maybe Cleveland didn’t like what Cubs were offering? What’s Hendry supposed to do about that?
ballhawk - June 28, 2009
Now it gets interesting
The Cards improve with DeRo and we are hoping for ARam to be our savior when he comes back.
If Aramis doesn’t return to pre-injury performance, we’re done, right? The next month will be very interesting. Funny how the Dodgers lost Manny’s bat and they are, what, 19 games over .500? They found a way to keep winning.
For the players that have had very poor offensive numbers to date, to bring the numbers up to career averages, they need to play at All Star levels the rest of the way. For Soto to get to last year’s .285 BA, he’s got to hit .320 for the remainder of the season., Bradley’s got to hit .350 the rest of the way to get to his career BA. We’ll see.
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
It's not necessary
for them to hit at a pace that gets them to their overall OPS or whatever from last year or their career. What we need is to hit at last year’s, or their career’s, OPS for the rest of the season. In terms of BA, then, for example, we need Soto to just hit .285 the rest of the way.
I suspect if we get career-level production across the lineup for the rest of the season and we don’t suffer any major pitching injuries (and Marmol finds his control), then we still have an excellent chance to win the division.
paulucla - June 28, 2009
Ok, I can buy that
I was crunching some numbers regarding final W/L do win the division. We will probably have to go 53-38 to win the division, give or take. With the hitters we have now, and a recovering ARam, is that realistic? I don’t think ARam will be anywhere near his stride until end of July. can we afford to tread water another month?
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
Going South
Hey Al…..The season is heading South its in St. Louis right now headed for the Gulf of
no return. Bradley = I told you so this is the guy the De Ro trade cleared $ for. Nice exchange. Hendrys head is in a dark place. As Steve Stone pointed out big turnover of a good team (08) to this mis match. In a few weeks there will be a sale on the North Side.
DaTruth - June 28, 2009
What do you THINK Stone is going to say?
He’s employed by the White Sox and is bitter toward his former employer for not standing up for him and Skip Caray going back to the “Dusty” years when the two were thrown off the team plane due to ‘player complaints.’
St. Stone and St. De Rosa.
Just amazing.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
If we are going to make a move
I motion that we put together a package for Freddy Sanchez. We’re getting pretty good defense out of second this year, but there has been little offensive production. He would give us someone who is both a great hitter and an excellent defender as well.
Pre - June 28, 2009
You got it!
Not only is he a good defender and an adequate hitter, but he’s an excellent hitter against LHP. Fontenot is still a great hitter against RHP, and a very good defender, as well. Put them together, and what do you have? More production out of 2nd base than we would have gotten with Mark DeRosa.
Shawn Domagal-Goldman - June 28, 2009
But what do you give up?
Pirates would probably ask for Wells and/or Marshall and probably Blanco. They aren’t going to give the guy away, especially since they should have many suitors for him come trading deadline.
carmen_fanzone - June 28, 2009
Agree and iirc he's a free agent
so Pitt’s probably looking to deal him and can’t ask for the entire farm since he could leave for nothing..
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
Vesting Options for 2010...
With McLouth gone, he might be a lock for the Pirates lone representative for the AS game. I don’t think he’d be as easy to get as you think. And the Twins have been rumored to be after him as well.
carmen_fanzone - June 28, 2009
Hendry has succeeded... by your own suggestion!
Al, consider your own quote here:
… than realize that Archer, Stevens, and Gaub is what Hendry got for DeRosa in the offseason. So if you’re equating Ascanio and Stevens to Perez, wouldn’t that be an argument for Hendry doing his job – getting a better return on DeRosa than another GM received?
Shawn Domagal-Goldman - June 28, 2009
Point taken, but...
… are you saying that Stevens, Archer and Gaub better than Perez and a PTBNL? If so, why hasn’t Jeff Stevens seen the major leagues? He could hardly be any worse than what we’ve got.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
Different points in their careers
My guess is that Perez is a closer in the next 18 months. Stevens could be a closer, but might be 2-3 years away. They could be similar pitchers in terms of production, but their career arcs are at different points.
In Perez, Cleveland is basically lining up a guy to replace Kerry Wood in the pen in the near future. Stevens would not have been that guy.
If I were Wood, I wouldn’t be getting too comfortable in Cleveland. I bet he gets shipped out before his contract is up.
Ross - June 28, 2009
You didn't quite answer my question.
Why hasn’t Stevens been recalled? Why is Kevin Hart ahead of him?
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
He did answer
Stevens, Gaub and Archer could be better than Perez and PTBNL but Perez in the most major league ready. Archer has the potential to make the Cubs deal better. However, if the Indians wanted major league ready than Perez is a better choice than Stevens, Ascanio, Guzman, etc. As Ross posts, Perez may be their closer next season depending on Wood.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
Well, as I am not a mind reader...
… I can’t tell you for certain why Hart was recalled over Stevens. But I can guess.
The Cubs bullpen was completely knackered. They wanted a guy who could come in and throw multiple innings out of the pen if necessary. Looking at the numbers, it appears Hart had been starting and had been stretched out a little more as a swingman than Stevens has as Parker’s set-up guy.
Another possibility is that they were showcasing him for a potential trade. Last year’s numbers might have raised some red flags over whether or not he was a AAAA-type pitcher.
But probably the biggest reason that Hart got the call over Stevens was the fact that in his three outings prior to the callup on June 21, he had given up six hits, walked two and surrendered five earned runs in his previous 2.1 innings of work. He picked a bad time to have a bad streak. (Since then, Stevens has given up just two hits and walked one in 4.1 innings over three appearances, striking out nine. Maybe it was a wake-up call for him.)
So short answer: Hart was the better pitcher who best fit the Cubs needs at the time Guzman went on the DL.
Ross - June 28, 2009
And how many of the people here will be going to the first Cubs/Cards game just so you can give DeRosa a standing ovation every time he comes to bat again? Even though, you know, he plays for a team trying to beat the Cubs.
scrappywhiteguy - June 28, 2009
I won't, not any more.
He got his applause from me a week ago. That was a thank-you for what he had done for the Cubs.
Now he’s just like any other opponent. I hope he fails when the Cardinals play… well, just about anyone, actually.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
While no player who only played on a team for two years deserves a standing ovation, I can deal with it the first time he comes to bat in his first game back. But the applause he continued to receive on the following Saturday and Sunday of that series was a complete and total embarrassment to any rational Cubs fan. It was the epitome of what Cubdumb is really all about.
scrappywhiteguy - June 28, 2009
well
you can get all bent out of shape because Cubs fans like Mark DeRosa, but I’m not sure I see the point.
“Cubdumb”? Seriously?
drewishdrewid - June 28, 2009
I’m not bent out of shape. I wasn’t one of the idiots giving standing ovations for a player coming to bat with the bases loaded in a game against the Cubs.
And yes, seriously, anyone that equates Jeter’s tenure with the Yankees and a slightly above-average utility player who spent 2 years with the Cubs deserves the label
scrappywhiteguy - June 28, 2009
DeRosa vs. Edmonds (CHC 2008)
A quick look at last year’s Cubs numbers shows:
DeRosa
PA 593, RBI 87, HR 21, OPS+ 118
Edmonds
PA 298, RBI 49, HR 19, OPS+ 136
Now, I’m not suggesting Edmonds would be likely to repeat that production this year, but he was actually a bigger impact player for the Cubs last year than DeRosa. Why DeRosa enjoys such mythical savior status when he was actually outperformed by an over-the-hill veteran like Edmonds last year is beyond my ability to comprehend.
Goodie1969 - June 28, 2009
Edmonds is still a FA, I think
Pre - June 28, 2009
There's no "mythical savior" status involved.
Just someone who could help the team in areas in which it is deficient.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
My reaction and comments
When I saw on the ticker last night that DeRosa had been traded to gasp the Cardinals, I chuckled over the gross overreaction that this trade would cause within the Cubs nation.
I have not been disappointed.
The Cardinals filled a need on their team, but at a price. Make no mistake, Chris Perez is a legitimate closer prospect (unless you believe the maxim TINSTAAPP). He was, in effect, their version of Carlos Marmol. Since we don’t know the PTBNL, I won’t address that further.
The “hindsight is 20-20” crowd on this blog and others has been interesting to watch. With incomplete information, the advantage of time, a know-it-all mentality and a massive man-crush on Mark DeRosa, they have pilloried Jim Hendry for virtually everything he has done, despite the fact that the season is not over and the Cubs are in the race.
I was a proponent of DeRosa going because, frankly, I didn’t see the Cubs reaching the next level with a semi-powerful utility guy playing so much. He seems to be a stand-up guy, so I am happy to see him get a chance to play in a pennant race and get out of the Cleveland quagmire. I was happy to see the Cubs get a LH bat like Milton Bradley because I thought he was exactly what the line-up needed – IF he maintained his composure and sanity. So far, this hasn’t been so good.
The Cubs have the pieces, and despite being beset by some bad luck, they are in the hunt. They do need to get their acts together as individuals, starting with Bradley. They have some trade chips, ones that would be better spent on a reliable bullpen arm than on a stop-gap infielder.
So can we all stop with the knee-jerk, reactionary stuff? Complaining doesn’t help. Hendry may have made mistakes, but only time will be the judge there. Piniella didn’t suddenly become baseball-stupid overnight. The season is going to play out and there is absolutely nothing any of you can do about it. Like a man in the delivery room, we aren’t really participants, we are all just along for the ride. You don’t have to like it, but that’s how it is.
Ross - June 28, 2009
I agree to the extent that DeRosa was not the glue to the Cubs team
but if you were confident in the Theriot/Fontenot middle infield, I want some of that kool-aid. Hendry’s belief that this was a sufficient middle infield is mind boggling.
JEROMEWALTON'SBATTINGSTANCE - June 28, 2009
response
I have no problem with Theriot at SS. Considering the overall quality of average SS, I think he is fine. It’s not as if there are Jeter’s and Nomar’s in their prime across the league right now. There seems to be no middle ground with a guy like Theriot. Either you love him because of his perceived “scrappiness” or you hate him for it. He’s not a stud, but he’s a reliable baseball player. Teams need players like him.
Fontenot has been a disappointment. I didn’t necessarily expect him to hit exactly the way he did last year, when he was protected in the lineup, but I thought he would produce better numbers than he has thus far.
So no, no kool-aid here, just what I think I saw and thought that I knew.
Ross - June 28, 2009
Middle ground
I don’t love Theriot but I think he does an adequate job. I think he would be better in the field at 2B though because of his arm.
LT - June 28, 2009
Agreed. Sorta.
Your analysis of Theriot is spot on, and as a reliable, scrappy middle infielder type, I can live with and at times, even be happy with that type of player.
But it’s tough to succeed when BOTH your middle-infielders are that type. And even if Fontenot had done better than he currently is, it’s not enough. I’d much rather the other non-scrappy reliable MI type to either be a base-stealing defensive whiz or a sturdy slugger type.
ballhawk - June 28, 2009
"I have not been disappointed."
Perhaps more entertaining is the army of strawmen people like you have been busy constructing over the past 12 hours.
No one has claimed DeRo is Mickey Mantle. This lastest situation simply underscores the incompetence of Jim Hendry and his horrible offseason.
salparadise23 - June 28, 2009
Overreact much?
Jim Hendry has built a team that has gone to the playoffs each of the last two season. This team is in the hunt this season, despite some bad luck and some bad people. He may have made an error in judgment, but that does not make him incompetent. If you think Hendry is incompetent, where does that put a guy like Allard Baird?
Ross - June 28, 2009
Yes, any Gm
that replaces DeRo with Aaron Miles is incompetent.
salparadise23 - June 28, 2009
What do you mean overreaction?
Seems about normal for this site lately.
rlpete - June 28, 2009
+10
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
+10 for Ross, that is
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
I recall many hating the signing of DeRo a few years ago and
calling Hendry an idiot for signing him. Many of those same people probably fell in love with DeRo and are now once again bashing the guy who signing him originally.
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
Bradley
Why can’t Lou play Bradley for 74 games this year so his 3rd year option won’t kick in? That way we are stuck with him for only 1 more year.
ronsanto10 - June 28, 2009
I think the player's association would probably step in with a grievance.
Unless Bradley gets hurt (and no, I am NOT rooting for that), he’ll play more than 75 games.
Al Yellon - June 28, 2009
File a grievance?
Then what? Lou can just say that he was benching him for ineffectual play or resting him. Nothing wrong with that. The PA will have no case.
ronsanto10 - June 28, 2009
Don't count on it
Unfortunately Lou/Management have pretty much already shot themselves in the foot with the option. If they were going to bench him for “ineffectual play”, they should have done so at the beginning of the season when he was completely worthless. They’ve already set the precendent that they aren’t willing to do that, so if it happened now it would be a huge red light to the PA.
It’s been obvious all season they aren’t smart enough to admit their mistake, otherwise they would have put him on the DL when he was hurt, instead of forcing the team to play shorthanded. And they would have told him to take the damn suspension when he was already hurt and not playing! Frankly, that was the moment that I knew Bradley was going to continue being a selfish player with this team, when he said he was going to appeal “on principle”, even though it was obvious that would only hurt the team.
aphoward - June 28, 2009
As you pointed out, we would still be stuck with him for another year.
If you think he has a bad attitude this year, benching him in order to screw him out of his third year option would not be likely to improve his outlook on being a Cub.
Goodie1969 - June 28, 2009
My point is that without a 3rd year....
…he might be easier to trade in the offseason.
ronsanto10 - June 28, 2009
That's true
but still pretty unlikely.
Goodie1969 - June 28, 2009
Are you serious?!
Hearing names like Teahen and Scutaro, etc is really scaring me. People actually want the Cubs to make a move so bad, that they are willing to take any random fool who happens to be available and can play multiple positions?
Our offense has been less than adequate, I would much sooner see the Cubs make a move that can actually have some sort of impact, instead of just another halfway useless utility player.
My vote on who Jim should go full out in trying to acquire in the next month: Chone Figgins. That will fill our need for someone who can play multiple positions, give us a huge boost in team speed/base stealing (which we obviously will never again get from Soriano), and finally give someone to Lou that he can put in the lead off spot instead of the Fonz.
aphoward - June 28, 2009
Except Figgins is the starting 3rd baseman on a first place team
Next?
rlpete - June 28, 2009
I guess...
All I can go by is what I’ve read, and that is that the Angels would be willing to deal Figgins if they could get a power bat and possible bullpen arm in return. I believe he is a free agent at the end of the season, so I didn’t find it too hard to believe.
I’d ship them Fox and someone like Ascanio or something for Figgins.
aphoward - June 28, 2009
The Angels really value Figgins and his .401 obp..
I think they’d be willing to deal off Figgins and prospects, if the Cubs offered up Harden & Fox.
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
And why do the Angels trade Figgins?
Teams don’t just make moves for the Cubs sake.
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
Brandon Wood is waiting in the wings
Still it’s doubtful that Scioscia would play a rookie 3B every day in the heat of a pennant race, especially with Figgins having an excellent year in the leadoff spot.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
If they were confident in Wood,
I think they’d have Figgins @ 2nd instead of Izturis and Wood @ 3b..
CubFaninCA - June 28, 2009
True
I remember Al suggesting Maicer Izturis at the beginning of the year, when Corey Koskie didn’t pan out. So I see that being a little more plausible for the Cubs than Figgins.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
From another thread...
And, “Not Bruce Froemming” made an almost exact statement in another thread, so
I’ll repeat — with props to NBF.
In all my years as a sports fan I have never seen so much angst over any Chicago player that was traded away. Even when Greg Maddux signed with the Braves, there wasn’t this much outcry. Perhaps the lack of sports radio and blogs tempered the anger in that era.
Losing Lou Brock and Bill Madlock were far worse losses for the Cubs than the loss of St. De Rosa.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
That was good
But instead of “St. DeRosa” we now should call him “St. LOUIS DeRosa”.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
Why do you say losing Madlock was a worse loss?
The Cubs were horrible WITH Madlock, they averaged over 20 games out of first those years. He was only one of a very few that actually hit. And Madlock was a 3B-IB only. DeRo can play 5-6 positions.
I am not trying to get into the DeRo debate, just inquiring your last comment.
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
The Cubs let a batting champ go
because the Wrigley brain trust didn’t want to break the $100,000 a year payroll marker.
Madlock went on to help the Pirates…win a few world titles. After Madlock left, it was….one third baseman after another, after another, after another, after another — until A-Ram. That’s nearly 25 years. Only Ron Cey was a decent stop-gap, but he was at the tail-end of his career.
St. De Rosa playing multiple positions isn’t really important to this discussion, and there is no way the two careers will compare, when it’s all said and done — that’s all I’m sayin’.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - June 28, 2009
I know what happened with and without Madlock
but Pittsburgh was a good team and better with him. The Cubs sucked either way. Sure, I would have liked him to stay because he was the only player worth watching except for Sutter or Buckner.
Maybe if Wrigley would have sold the team in ‘76 the new owners could have built around Madlock. But that never happened. With free agency, Wrigley wasn’t going to “overpay” for anyone. Can you say Bill Wirtz? Before free agency, how many good Cub teams were there after their last WS appearance? They had 8 seasons at or above .500 from 1946-1974. Not exactly a juggernaut.
The Cubs had a team that had went to the playoffs 2 straight years and traded a major cog away that IMO would have helped this season, even without ARam going down. I never anointed DeRo to the level that some might, but all I am saying is that the losses of Madlock and DeRo are different. Yes, both are/were fan favs, but on the field, DeRo had a bigger impact.
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
There was no internet back in those days
I bet this place would have been in meltdown worse than this if there was
LT - June 28, 2009
Probably not
the Cubs’ seasons were basically over by the ASB. Only a few diehards would actually post if we were 15+ games out in July.
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
this place was pretty active in the 2006 season
LT - June 28, 2009
I guess
but we are comparing 2006 with a few post season appearances in previous years to 1976 or so with the last playoff/WS appearance 30+ years before and 80% of those years were horrible.
BigJohnAZ - June 28, 2009
What many Armchair GM's here
keep forgetting is: there will be NO ACQUISITIONS if it costs MONEY! With the ownership issue what it is, and the Tribune in bankruptcy, it is going to have to be “near-match” deals only. Hendry has lost all my respect after the good seasons he had two years in a row.
To say I’d have confidence in him doing anything this season, based on the conditions currently, is an understatement.
We are all stuck with the shit he gave us this year, and it is a shame.
The E-Man - June 28, 2009
Has this changed recently?
As soon as 2 weeks ago, possibly less, Crane Kenney and Jim Hendry both said they saved about $5 mil in payroll room this offseason for any potential in-season moves.
aphoward - June 28, 2009
I feel sick
DeRosa was one of my favorite Cubs last year, and now he is playing for my sworn-enemy. I hate Jim Hendry right now/
Charlemagne - June 28, 2009
I know that is the IL State mascot
but isn’t it hard to have a avatar like that if you hate St Louis?
LT - June 28, 2009
When I first heard the DeRo move to StLouis
I thought, this meant that Hendry had another option to fill our infield void(s). My sense is that we will be getting a deal done. This didn’t seem like a high price for DeRo, so Hendry must have another deal elsewhere that will be struck in the next 7-10 days.
Obviously, this is just a guess, but these trade situations are dynamic not linear. So let’s see how things play out. What choice do we have??
I don’t think Hendry has become an idiot. Me makes more good moves than bad (just my opinion). In spite of the cards he has been dealt with this “up in the air” ownership, he is doing the best he can.
Let’s not forget, Marmol is sucking it up, Bradley has been virtually useless in key situations, Fonzi has been in a epic slump and ARam is injured, yet we are only 3 1/2 games out. Something is working so far…
LAcarl519 - June 28, 2009
I think that something
is the Comedy Central is back at the moment
LT - June 28, 2009
whatever it takes...
LAcarl519 - June 28, 2009
He still believes Miles is the answer
What a bum.
propheteer - June 28, 2009
Yes, if the question is
“Name a middle infielder who plays for the Cubs with a bum shoulder and a career .680 OPS”.
CaliCub - June 28, 2009
This is legit.
lexmarklover - June 28, 2009
Al, you still trust that Hendry is going to make a good move?
You’re definitely an optimist.
Fraggin Judge - June 28, 2009
ITOLDYOUSOITOLDYOUSOITOLDYOUSO
Actually I didn’t but wanted to take this oppurtunity to perpetuate the immaturity.
Rage and Grace - June 28, 2009
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Bleed Cubbie Blue to post a comment.