Anyone who has been a Cubs fan as long as I have has seen some losses we'd rather forget. Last night's ugly 6-5 Cubs defeat at the hands of the Braves zoomed right up to the top of the list of horrible games that will stick in our minds for a long time. We can only hope that the players shake it off and come back and win tonight.
The bullpen meltdown ruined Randy Wells' fifth major league start -- at first, it appeared that Wells, like Kerry Wood 11 years ago in his fifth ML start, might put his name in the record books. He took a no-hitter into the seventh inning before Chipper Jones slapped a no-doubt-about it single to left with two out; Garret Anderson ruined Wells' bid for a shutout with a home run leading off the 8th, but those were the only two hits Wells allowed. When Derrek Lee made his first error of the season dropping a subsequent throw from Ryan Theriot, Wells was lifted for Carlos Marmol. Marmol's been off and on this year, and last night was definitely "off". Marmol's control was poor -- only 11 strikes in 23 pitches, and Wells was charged with a second run, unearned, when Marmol issued a bases-loaded walk, which made the score 5-2. A sac fly made it 5-3, still a very winnable game. But then Kevin Gregg came in and allowed Jeff Francoeur -- who Braves fans have nearly given up on -- to hit a game-tying, two-run homer. The Cubs had their chances in extra innings, especially in the 10th when Kosuke Fukudome doubled with two out, but the bullpen kept putting too many on base and finally, Chipper Jones sent Braves fans home happy with a game-winning single in the 12th.
Before some final analysis of this giveaway, since I am by nature a positive person, let's look at some of the good things about this game. Wells threw 83 pitches and had 58 strikes. Now think about that for a minute. In recent years some Cubs pitchers haven't gotten out of the fifth inning without throwing that many pitches. He walked no one and before Jones' single, the only baserunner had been Yunel Escobar, who was hit by a Wells pitch and then erased on a double play. I was especially pleased to see Derrek Lee put up two extra-base hits, a smash double down the line driving in one run, and his sixth homer of the season in the top of the eighth. Alfonso Soriano, who almost always gets started off by opposing pitchers with a fastball, took a 68-MPH curveball from Kenshin Kawakami for strike one, but fought Kawakami off and wound up with a leadoff home run, the 54th of his career, which put him past Craig Biggio into second place behind the all-time leader, Rickey Henderson, who hit 81 of them. It was also Soriano's first HR in 12 games; maybe this is the start of one of his hot streaks.
OK, done with the good stuff -- and beyond losing the game, the Cubs may have again lost Milton Bradley to injury. He has a right calf strain after trying to beat out an infield hit and is officially "day-to-day", though that was his status after the April injury in Milwaukee, and he wound up out for more than two weeks. To which I'm going to say tonight: I TOLD YOU SO. Forget about Bradley's outbursts -- the thing I was most worried about in this signing was his constant time out of the lineup. Who knows how bad this injury is going to be, and fortunately Reed Johnson is hot right now and so he'll play CF while Kosuke Fukudome (who was 1-for-3 against his former Chunichi Dragons teammate Kawakami) shifts over to RF. At this rate, Bradley won't make the incentives this season that would guarantee the contract for its third year, so the Cubs' future financial exposure will be trimmed.
Some of you thought the Cubs should have signed Raul Ibanez. No one could have predicted how well he'd do so far this year, but that'd be better than the half-time play of Bradley. And even Adam Dunn would have been better -- bad as he might have been in right field, at least he has been on the field for all of Washington's games this year and has played 152 or more games five straight years and six of the last seven. At this rate we'll be lucky if Bradley plays 152 games combined between this year and next. (Not to mention that Dunn is 3rd in the NL in HR, 4th in RBI, 3rd in walks, and 9th in SLG and OPS.) Dunn would have made Joey Gathright useful, as Gathright could have played defensive replacement virtually every day for the last couple of innings.
There's enough blame to go around for last night. Some may blame Lou, but he's only using the players Jim Hendry got him. Come to think of it, that might be Lou's fault, since a lot of the changes were apparently made at his behest. The bullpen, in particular, was "fixed" badly. It's not too late to fix some of the fixes, either. Like the players, we as fans need to shake it off; there's another game tonight -- and the Cubs remain only four games out of first place (and if you're keeping track this early, four games out of the wild card, too).
Final note: I received multiple email complaints about behavior in the game threads last night. In the heat of discussing a tough game like last night's, I understand people can get frustrated and upset. Profanity and personal attacks will not be tolerated.
0 recs | 908 comments
Randy Wells
He was fantastic last night. Time after time I watch the Cubbies go up against the kind of pitcher that Wells was last night and wonder, why don’t we have one of those? Now we do. Really great. If Fonty was a little taller he would have gotten out of the 7th with the no-hitter. Wonder what Wonder Hampster’s vertical leap measure is? 8 inches?
Lou has to realize that Marmol has to be kept on a very very short leash. It was immediately apparent that he didn’t have it last night and should have been pulled right away. Another game today. Go Cubbies!
wombat - June 3, 2009
Meh.
I’ll just write this one off to one of those 60 games that a team loses no matter what during a season.
Honestly, I think it’s safe to say that the Cubs’ bullpen is NOT going to blow a lot of 5 run leads this year, no matter what people think about them.
Bad luck, moving on.
Edgewood - June 3, 2009
No I think this was one of the 60 games we win
Except that we lost. Also the bullpen is primed to blow many five run leads the way they’ve been pitching.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
'Many five-run leads'
Seriously? You really believe that?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
yes
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Well, I guess
your baseball knowledge is less than zero.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
you are correct sir
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I guess even a stopped clock
is right twice a day.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Is he not entitled to an opinion
The way that our bullpen is currently pitching, they will give up a lot of five run leads. Marmol is walking almost a batter an inning (probably more now after last night), Heilmann can’t get anyone out, Gregg hasn’t exactly been effective, and Lou doesn’t really trust anyone else. The only one in our bullpen that has consistently pitched well is Guzman. Having only one effective pitcher in your bullpen will result in a lot of blown leads.
gwood - June 3, 2009
And you see a lot of bullpens
blowing five-run leads all the time in baseball, too. Not.
And no, not everybody is entitled to an opinion. Think about it.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
"And no, not everybody is entitled to an opinion."
seriously? How freaking big is your ego?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Since not everyone
is entitled to one, you just lost yours.
TCobb1911 - June 3, 2009
Here's what I mean
“I think all Chinese people are stupid.”
If someone says “That’s my opinion,” does that make it OK?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
That has to be some kind of record...
from first comment to personal attack…
CubsWin!Oregon - June 3, 2009
Ok that is fair...
But the timing of such events could be a killer.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
sorry, but..
“bad luck, moving on” seems like quite an understatement. I am a 26 year old lifelong Cards fan from Belleville, IL. I was pumped up to see Randy Wells getting the call earlier this season, as I was one year younger than him in our school days. It is very cool to see him doing so well – even if it is with the Cubbies. His season numbers (minus the wins) are pretty similar to some guy named Chris Carpenter, who I heard is pretty good. My point/question:
Since I only watch Cubs games when Randy is starting, I only have that sample to go from, but is the bullpen really that bad? It looks like a disaster from the handful of games that I have seen.
MUGATU - June 3, 2009
My thoughts on Ibanez...
No one would have predicted his hot start – but he always seems to get 100 rbi’s a season. So to say you could not predict his start fine (the HRs are a little off), but he is always around a 100 rbi’s.
I personally think the Cubs gave up on Fukudome too early.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Oh and Dunn...
If he only played at Wrigley (81 games) i am sure he would hit 40 HRs a season. That was reason enough to sign him.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
I've been trying
not to think about these 2 guys…I even traded away Dunn on my fantasy team so I dont have to see all his HR and high OPS everyday.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Dunn would have been a disaster in right
As for Ibanez, Lou managed him before. The fact that the Cubs showed no interest in him is probably a sign that Lou didn’t want him again (rightly or wrongly).
elgato - June 3, 2009
Yea -
i am glad you put (rightly or wrongly) cuz this might open a can of worms.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Yeah ...
I’m not saying I agree with Lou. I’m just saying why I think it didn’t happen.
elgato - June 3, 2009
Why
does Lou not order Jones walked w/ 1st base open? Apparently, he couldn’t hear me screaming through the tv screen.
Slakkr - June 3, 2009
1st base open...
1 out, setup the DP… I don’t get it.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Completely inexcusable.
That’s baseball 101 right there — don’t let the other team’s best hitter beat you. ESPECIALLY with first base open and when walking him will setup the inning ending double play.
There is zero logic in pitching to him.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Agreed.
In fact, they probably should also have walked McCann after that to set up a force at every base.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
Not McCann
not when your bullpen is near the top @ walking batters. But c’mon Chipper is on the All Contact all the Time Team…. why?!
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Yeah not McCann
Then you put the winning run 90 feet away with a possible WP/PB. But not walking Chipper was a baseball crime.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Disagree.
1st and 2nd with one out, you don’t IBB the next guy to put the winning run at 3rd with only one out. Had there have been two outs in that situation, I would agree. But not with one.
McCann is a catcher. He’s slow. You should expect your pitcher to be able to induce a DP on him. Terrible managing.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Yeah...
I agree with this.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Exactly
You don’t let the other team’s best hitter beat you with first base open. I told my son they should be walking Chipper there because he will beat you most of the time.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
I usually trust Lou in crunchtime decisions like this...
…but not walking Chipper last night was mind-boggling. I was baffled. Was he asked this in the post-game?
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
unintentional Walk
Since the runner stole second on a 3-1 strike, I can see pitching to Jones – but never throw him a strike. And never, never , never, never a low pitch he can drive. Throw it up in his eyes. If he swings, he pops it up. If not, then it’s a walk.
CubbieFaninOhio - June 3, 2009
Or at least bring in Waddell
to pitch to him. Bob said over and over that Jones has a bum right toe and cannot bat right handed, plus, if Jones does get on McCann is on deck. Lou should have brought Waddell in in that situation I think.
gwood - June 3, 2009
For his MLB debut?
I don’t know if that would’ve been the best idea.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
His debut
was the other day and he pitched pretty well. Even struck out two of the four batters he faced.
gwood - June 3, 2009
You and Santo
He was pissed all game, but moreso when he saw Heilman about to pitch to Chipper.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
That was one of the most frustrating games I've seen
in a very long time. What on earth does it take to get Randy Wells a win?! He’s been OUTSTANDING and nothing to show for it.
And as much as what I’m about to say pains me, Geo needs a break. He deserves some blame as well. Kevin Gregg had to get 4 outs that inning because of the PB, that 2 run homer should never have happened. He looks shoddy throwing people out as well. They need to figure something out there, this is just ridiculous. :(
slcathena - June 3, 2009
One other thing
Guzman was pretty good last night all things considered. What would happen if we ever got our best out of the pen consistently…
slcathena - June 3, 2009
Kevin Gregg
the Hr shouldnt have happned but it was a terrible pitch. Francouer cant hit any other pitch and Gregg decides to leave a fastball down the middle, that cant happen.
Aramis Ramirez - June 3, 2009
Geo made a LOT of good plays last night
But he also made a lot of sloppy plays, and made easy plays look hard. Hill should get a shot. Something is not right with Geo.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Last night was
DIS-GUST-ING. Marmol is becoming a liability and Lou doesn’t pull the plug on him quick enough. After Wells’ great start the clun should be able to hold on to a 4 run lead.
sdurst - June 3, 2009
Marmol
has all the symptoms of “Rich Hill” disease. Hope he finds a cure before the season’s over.
JFCubFan - June 3, 2009
Oh stop it.
That’s way too extreme. Remember how he entered the ASB last year? Then he had a great outing during the ASG and was lights out. He’ll be fine, let’s not overreact.
cubswynn - June 3, 2009
hmmm... wonder what happened during that period...
oh right…
Marmol got SIGNIFICANT rest
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
he got a day off before the ASG, and two days off after the ASG
how is that significant?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
from July 10-19
he pitched in two games (including the ASG performance)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=marmoca01&t=p&year=2008
give me another 10 day span in which Marmol is used just twice
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
That's a good idea.
But to compare him to Rich Hill is crazy pills talk. He’s gone through this before and he’s recover. Not to mention, he’s never been pooped on while pitching ( at least that we know of).
cubswynn - June 3, 2009
i've been consistent for over a year now
that Marmol’s declining command is PHYSICAL FATIGUE nothing mental
I made a long post about it last year assessing the over-use and suggesting this could have long-term effects
I followed it up this year with an extended post about how we may be realizing those losses now in terms of Marmol’s effectiveness due to the overuse last year and the consistent mismanagement of him this year
so no… i’m not the guy to agree it has anything to do with mental issues
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Why couldn't Wells pitch the entire game?
Chanman25 - June 3, 2009
Good question.
At 83 pitches, he could have at least finished the 8th.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
Especially in a 5-0/5-1 game.
n/t
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
I was ok with him being lifted at that point
Marmol should have been able to do the job.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
+1
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
Me too
Wells was losing hsi ability to locate his pitches. They were starting to get into good hitting spots. Wells is a young pitcher and I think it was for the best at that point to get him out of the game with a resounding success under his belt.
jerry morales rules - June 3, 2009
Marmol
had been used in 4 of the last 5 days either in the game or warming up
had he not been used in those prior games (two of them games decided by 5 runs or more), perhaps he would’ve been more effective
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Doubtful
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
the numbers suggest as much
but you could care less about numbers….
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
proof
Marmol Career BB’s/9 as a reliever, based on usage patterns
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=marmoca01&year=Career&t=p
0 Days, GR = 6.08 BB/9 (50 1/3 innings)
1 Days, GR = 4.95 BB/9 (72 2/3 innings)
2 Days, GR = 4.61 BB/9 (27 2/3 innings)
3 Days, GR = 3.26 BB/9 (19 1/3 innings)
Can we see the trend?
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
didn't your chart
previously list four, five and six days of rest?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
responded in the other thread on this
but the 4-5-6+ all combined for 20 1/3 innings and the BB/9 is 3.72
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Question.
Is it like that for every pitcher?
cubsfaninatl - June 3, 2009
not that significant
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Wells..
should have been given a much longer leash. His short time in the big leagues he has demonstrated a good ability to work out of trouble. In this case, the trouble wasn’t even that serious.
Maybe Piniella was saving Wells for game 4 of the division series..
wicubfan - June 3, 2009
I was all set to post a big "CONGRATULATIONS" to former Lansing Lugnut Wells on his first major league win.
He’s been great this season. Unfortunately, he seems to have picked up the “hard luck” mantle this season. He deserved better last night and this season. Hang in there Randy.
As for the rest of the game, I agree with your initial assessment Al. This one goes up to if not at the top of the “BAD CUBS GAMES” ladder. This one stunk.
I guess the lesson here is when you strive to build a balanced team, you go 81-81.
Sigh…
Zeke - June 3, 2009
At least we have a keeper in Wells
Though I’m interested to see what happens the second time he starts against a team. Still I was awful excited watching him mow down hitters and keep his pitch count down.
The problem has become Geovany Soto and his lack of power/defense. That was a very blockable pitch from Gregg last night, and Soto couldn’t get his body in front of it. If he isn’t going to hit for plus power then Koyie Hill should start and Soto should be sent to AAA. Tell him to go down there, lose 10 pounds, and hit homers. The PCL should allow him to get his power stroke back that way the good Geovany Soto is back and we don’t have to watch this new Soto become more and more useless.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Hill made a great stop
after just coming into the game on a pitch from Heilman with a man on 3rd.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
20 pounds
sue369 - June 3, 2009
Even better
Personally I would have strapped him into a treadmill a month ago and made him run until he was back in shape.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I mean don't the Cubs
have trainers and staff to help the players who need to be in better shape?
sue369 - June 3, 2009
His situation reminds me of Andruw Jones a bit
I don’t understand how a professional athlete can get out of shape. Odds are he thought he could get away with gaining a little weight before spring training, then discovered that his body can’t shed the weight as easily.
Or he is still eating too much against the wishes of the training staff.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Shaq reports to every training camp overweight...
… and every year i wonder how he gets away with it.
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
Because there isn't a human being alive
with the balls to take on Shaq. Also Shaq has risen to media-bulletproof status, which means he can get away with anything.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Good point
Shaq should open a school for professional athletes and teach “media-bulletproof status 101” and “reporting to camp overweight 201.”
Seriously, it’d be an interesting case study: how did Shaq achieve that status?
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
Him and Barkley can be co-founders
I don’t know how Barkley got there, but Shaq did it by being a funny guy who all the media people liked, I’m sure there are some other factors as well.
I think about the Kobe rap from last year and wonder how many people would have gotten killed in the media for that.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
If you would have attended
Winning Championships 101 you may have known
tony412 - June 3, 2009
I could never make it to 8 o'clock classes.
daver - June 3, 2009
AM or PM?
haha party animal
tony412 - June 3, 2009
I've never understood this
With any other sport, nearly every athlete is in tremendous shape. Only in baseball do you have players who end up becoming to far overweight to play their positions effectively. Even the overweight players in football are their size because of the position they play. If a running back put on 20, or 30 pounds, he’d be benched or strapped to a treadmill until he got the weight off. I know it’s a long season, but that’s no excuse to let yourself go.
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
There have been plenty of football and basketball players who have ate their way out of a job.
willie mays hayes' gloves - June 3, 2009
Marmol vs. Wells
Excellent point made by Brenley last night, i.e., Marmol’s the type of pitcher that has nasty stuff and makes the HS team, gets a signing bonus, etc., whereas Wells is the guy that gets ignored. Even though Wells throws strikes. I have a son who’s a pitcher, HS age, who is like Wells.
Very frustrating game, another one to go down in infamy.
thermal54 - June 3, 2009
Same old
.500. That’s what this team is and that is what this team will continue to be without changes to the regular lineup in some way, shape or form. Theriot absolutely has to be moved off of SS. The internal options are obviously very limited but you can’t continue to trot him out there and expect him to even play adequate defense at SS. Quite frankly, he’s terrible at SS and anyone that believes otherwise hasn’t been paying attention to the balls clanging off his glove with regularity, the double-clutch throws almost daily and his woeful range to either side. I like Theriot…as a 2B. His adventures at SS have to end for this team, not the one from 2008, to somehow turn into a contender.
As for Soto, he needs a trip to Des Moines I’m afraid. Perhaps that is the wake-up call he needs. Otherwise, they’ve tried everything else and not only isn’t he hitting, but his performance behind the plate has been just plain bad.
Otherwise, this team has to stop with the “it’s a long season, we’ll be fine” routine and stop it NOW. Play baseball and start taking these losses more seriously. The “we could be worse” mantra never fits anyone well.
krummy12 - June 3, 2009
Agree with Theriot
slow and no arm.
Grockcubs - June 3, 2009
yeah, he'd be fine @ 2B
but what do you do?
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Soto ...
should at least ride the pine for a while. Why won’t Lou give Hill more starts?
elgato - June 3, 2009
I think it was Brenly who compared Lou and Robert Cox
He mentioned that both want to win, but when Lou is frustrated it shows and rubs off on the team, whereas Cox was out there cheering on his team, helping them out with Fly Balls, etc.
Is Lou getting too old for this game? (Not physical age, but just mental age)
GoCubbies34 - June 3, 2009
I've wondered about
Lou’s mental health this year. To me he’s not the same manager as we saw last year.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
He seems a bit more warn down
but I don’t think he is different. Lou is a terrible in game manager in terms of bullpen and bench, this year he has less to
work with so this get’s exposed more.
Doggie Stalker - June 3, 2009
RIGHT SUE,,,,
At times it looks like he is in another world..That has been my observation also,,,,
cubs north - June 3, 2009
Wells is sharp
Maybe the Cubs should draft catchers in every round and make them pitchers.
This is what Lou wanted, no Wuertz, no Eyre and get every lefthanded bat ( except the ones that don’t get hurt, Abreu, Dunn, and Ibanez) that is standing.
I can only hope Bradley goes on the DL, becasue of the contract situation. Hated the signing from day 1.
And Soto needs a trip to Iowa.
Grockcubs - June 3, 2009
Maybe not a trip to Iowa
since you need a back up catcher anyway. I’d rather we try this tough love thing by having him back up Hill a couple more times a week.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Why can't the AAA catcher sit here for two weeks
Soto sitting on the bench does nobody any good. He needs to remember how to hit for power, 5 extra base hits in two months for Soto is pathetic.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
If the trip to Iowa is to get some hitting in fine
but just to try to wake him up psychologically, a benching here can do that too. I guess I’d rather have Soto and his .200 avg pinch hit than whoever the AAA catcher is.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
I think he is woken up
He knows he sucks, you could see it last night after Lou pulled him. He needs some easy pitching to feast on for two weeks, let him remember that he can hit for power so that we can have our ROY back.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I don't disagree with you
Cubs should do it now, if they’re gonna do it…we’re already in tread water mode.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
exactly
Hill can do the same thing Soto is doing. We need Soto to be Soto.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Soto to Des Moines
+1
thermal54 - June 3, 2009
+1
don’t know who backs up Hill, but don’t really care at this point.
Spydey - June 3, 2009
Jake Fox!
Kidding! :-p
CubsWin!Oregon - June 3, 2009
Wellington Castillo?
I hear Paul Bako is looking for a job.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Starting today
we need to assume that if we’re going to right this ship and win this division, we cant count on Bradley. Any contribution from him will be gladly expected, but me personally, I dont expect much from him anymore.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
** expected = accepted
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Which makes Hendry saying
that Bradley would play 130 games so laughable. There has been no history for Bradley making it through a whole season healthy.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
even more laugable were the number of fans who expected 130 games
.300+ average, and 25-30 home runs from a guy who’s rarely if ever put up those numbers
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'm so annoyed by MB I can't even talk about it.
slcathena - June 3, 2009
A blessing in disguise
Reed Johnson, hotter than a pistol and with healthy limbs, takes Bradleys spot.
Personally I would rather have Johnson out there even if Bradley is healthy.
JFCubFan - June 3, 2009
Umpiring
I was again disturbed at the problems the plate umpire was having:
*Missed the call when the ball hit Escobar’s bat. Jesus, you’re standing right there. WTF??
*Was apparently having difficulty with the heat. It’s hot. In Atlanta. In June. Who knew?
Not the reason the Cubs choked, but still, this is a professional sport.
thermal54 - June 3, 2009
Escobar
I think Len and Bob mentioned they didnt see any of the Cubs complain, ask for another umps opinion…. not like it would have changed anything, but it happens.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Some of the ball/strike calls were brutal too.
I wonder what pitchf/x thought of it.
Jerry Mumphrey - June 3, 2009
Nobody mentioned
Escobar’s fake HBP. The ball hits the bat and he goes on and on like it hit him in the head. I sure wouldn’t liked to see a perfect game ruined by an acting job. BUt I guess the bullpen implosion kept us from talking about that.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Escobar is a good player
But he is a piece of crap. Every issue teams have with the Braves seems to directly involve Escobar. He gets hit by a pitch and makes way too big a deal about it.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Circles provided great comic relief to all of us last night after a tough loss
We need clowns like him to come over and entertain us after tough games
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
I hope not
He started right off by calling us losers and idiots (he called me an “idiot” at one point). When that wasn’t enough, he called someone (I don’t remember who and the comment has been deleted) a sick f###.
It was quite the intro on this site.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
who cares if an anonymous arseclown calls you an idiot.
You need to realize what a joke that guy was, and not take it personally
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'm not taking it like that.
I hadn’t seen anything like that before, that’s why I posted it. Not that it wasn’t funny in afterthought … I laughed about it later.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
Well, guess what.
That kind of stuff isn’t allowed on this site. Period.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
Nor should it be, but
My tact was to not let it get to me, because that’s what the guy wanted.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
I think you
threw him off his game a little.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
really?
I seem to remember a poster telling people to “STFU” the other day (among other insults to me and others this year). Have you done anything about that, Al?
elgato - June 3, 2009
If you email me, I'll do something about it.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
OK ...
I will, if it happens again. I didn’t know that was the preferred process.
elgato - June 3, 2009
sure it is,
if the “right” people are doing it
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
define "right"
I’d like to hear your theory on this …
elgato - June 3, 2009
I've watched Not Bruce Froemming get away with personal attacks left and right
on anyone who doesn’t remotely agree with him, and nothing is done to him. Heine is cussing people out and nothing happens.
There are a group of posters here who appear to be treated differently.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Any response, Al?
elgato - June 3, 2009
I wasn't cussing people out
A couple of F bombs are different than profanity riddled personal attacks
heine41 - June 3, 2009
you told me to STFU
which, i agree, is different than a profanity-laced personal attack. Either way, it is my opinion that every Cubs fan deals with frustration and losses in their own way. Some are very optimistic despite the fact this franchise has struggled for so long, and I envy them for that outlook. I feel that when a franchise spends hundreds of millions of dollars they deserve to be criticized.
I do wish that this whole sunshine pumpers vs. ledge-jumpers classification would end. It is the source of 90% of the negative, personal attacks on the board. The notion that cynics are less of fans is ludicrous, those who don’t like the negativity should just man up and ignore it.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Everybody should be allowed to be a fan their own way
Some people like to focus on the positive things, while some like to overreact to the bad things. Both are fine, heck its better that there are different perspectives around here.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
+1
Very well said.
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
I Agree with and apologize
I was irritated and just didn’t appreciate the prediction of failure. But you are entitled to that.
We’ve gotten along just fine on here and again I’m sorry. Didn’t mean to start anything.
heine41 - June 3, 2009
no worries
all on the same team here
BeltwayCubsFan - June 3, 2009
If you want to
vent your negative thoughts why don’t you start a thread for those who want to vent? If others come in the game thread spouting their venom we can send them to your thread. When the game is over you can always delete your thread.
We all know when the team is not playing well. We don’t need 20+ posts telling us what we alrady know. I really can’t stand all the negative stuff being spewed in the game threads. I’m not a negative person by nature and I don’t feel I should have to read all of that since I know the team is not playing well. Some say to skip over those but that’s impossible to do.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
and
you’ll ignore us when we have our “rose colored glasses on”?
I won’t bet on that. Not one penny.
I just posted about being a fan, and how I understand that other people are fans in different ways. The problem is, here we are in our little “rose-colored” world, and along comes someone screaming “CUBS SUCK! CUBS SUCK!” and we’re expected to ignore it?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
eh, i have to really disagree with you here
Yes, there are some fans who when a player strikes out will post how that player “sucks,” but in my case and most of the others I think the criticisms are more specific, valid and educated frankly – based on some forethought and baseball knowledge.
I think your characterization of the ledge jumpers are painted with a very broad brush. This is a forum, I doubt it would be very entertaining if every poster were singing the same tune. I’m pretty sure that everyone on this board at some point last season ripped Fukudome a new one for his terrible finish, should we spend our time culling through those posts to see if all the Dome bashers are now singing his praises? I bet the results would be interesting but its hardly productive.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Yes, there are some fans who when a player strikes out will post how that player "sucks," but in my case and most of the others I think the criticisms are more specific, valid and educated frankly – based on some forethought and baseball knowledge.
You must be reading VERY different game threads. Including your own comments. Remember the 2-1 victory over the Dogers? In the second inning, you said “game over”.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
You speak rather highly of yourself.
daver - June 3, 2009
Tattle Tale, -1
adam316 - June 3, 2009
Absolutely
I think some may have wondered why I kept answering him, but I was mocking him by not sinking to his level.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Your sarcastic replies to him were great
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
Stop responding to the trolls
I know you think it’s funny or that it works or whatever, but it doesn’t. The only thing that will make the trolls leave is when they can’t have fun anymore. Every response is fun to them. Nothing it more boring to a troll than when nobody responds.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
+1
Also, very well said.
Given the amount of time some of us spend here, we know who’s who and if they are “worthy of a response.” There’s no point in feeling personally attacked by someone if you’re not provoking them.
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
I don't think he was having fun replying to me
He was having fun when people got pissed
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
To expound on this
You can choose to let it bother you, or you can not let it get to you. I chose not to last night, and I’m pretty sure he didn’t like that. The next time that happens, I’ll do the same.
I’ve learned that not letting people who are out to provoke get to me works to diffuse it in real life, too.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Well, don't be surprised when the trolling continues
Plenty of other people were bothered by it. There’s is absolutely no reason to feed them.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Plenty of other people responded the way he wanted
That’s what will make it continue. Why don’t you chastise them?
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
I'm not chastising you
You’re an American. Do what you want.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
What would you say you were doing, then?
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
ffs
Providing insight on how to deal with trolls in a manner that works time and time again.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
except it doesn't.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Because nobody here actually does it
The trolls get more responses than anybody else.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
I've seen it happen in other places. It doesn't work.
In order to beat a bully, you have to beat the bully.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
"ffs" yeah, that's not chastising
My point, good dr, is that your angst would be better off directed at those who’d responded in kind.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
I give up
If you think I was chastising you, then I’m sorry you’re so easily offended.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Where did I say I was offended?
You’re still missing the point.
I didn’t resort to personal attacks, profanity-laced tirades or strawman arugments against circles yesterday. Some did do one or more of those. If you read the thread last night, his responses to me pretty much dried up. He got no enjoyment out of baiting me, because I didn’t take the bait.
The ones that did take the bait did give him some of what he wanted — that’s where you should be focusing your energy, instead of telling me not to diffuse his garbage.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
OK, fair enough
I only responded to your post because you were the one who brought it up. It was meant to be a general post for everyone, which is why I was not chastising you.
In any case, it would be nice if Al would designate someone who has Banhammer privileges for game threads so we wouldn’t have to deal with it at all.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
email Al
with your recommendations. Seriously.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Alright, got it
I probably got a bit defensive because it seemed directed at me. At any rate, no problem.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
+1
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Too easy to be negative about last night, so I won't even bother.
Wells looked GREAT. Here’s hoping he’s the real deal and another true ‘great starter’ for the Cubs.
malicedoom - June 3, 2009
Yes...
But he could be the next Frank Castillo.
tripdenten - June 3, 2009
Castillo's wife was hot . . . .
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
So I decided to read through the 3rd overflow thread while having my coffee
I already knew the Cubs lost. In fact, in the ninth inning, with one on, I somehow felt Gregg was going to give up a home run and the Cubs would eventually lose. They did. Yeah, it was frustrating to watch, and yeah, it made me angry, but I’m happy I stayed out of the thread last night. This isn’t a knock against Al because I love this website. Google Chrome knows I love it, and Speed Dial knows I love it too, but I almost feel as if I can’t even read the threads because of a handful of people that pollute it. The occasional troll doesn’t bother me, but there’s a group of people that continue to troll, flame, and fight with a lot of the regulars. Some of these people that are so incredibly disruptive have also done things outside of here that I would consider unethical. It’s unfortunate that you can’t ignore these people either because they’re spewing their negativity in either fresh posts, or in replies to other people’s posts. No amount of reasoning works either.
What I want to finish with is, many of you know who I’m alluding to. Those of you I am alluding to know who you are. All I ask is to think about what you’re saying. I know that’s a lot to ask because those of you I am referring to feel as if you can say anything on the internet and not take into account how someone else may feel. Like Al and others have said before, be respectful. Would you behave this way with a group of us if we were chilling at Murphy’s before a game, or inside the park during a game? Would you be such a negative presence that you would make everyone else around you resent you? I would imagine the answer to that is no. So please, take this into consideration. We don’t all have to be hugs and kisses with each other, but have some tact and be mindful of others.
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
For a positive spin on things...
where do I get my Randy Wells jersey? :)
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
here
tony412 - June 3, 2009
While awesome
I don’t think the future missus would appreciate me dropping $180 on a jersey right now.
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
Not a Randy Wells one anyway
I just got me a Soto and am now wondering if I took the tags off too soon.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Buying a jersey is such a process for me
Your comment about taking the tags off reminds me of that. I feel that any player jersey I buy, I’m going to curse that player somehow and they’re going to then perform awful and be traded.
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
Yeah, from now on
going strictly retired players route… unless the Cubs somehow have a super stud player at some point in my lifetime, like a Pujols.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Yep
I apparently hexed Prior after I shelled out $$$ for his jersey 5 years ago.
JFCubFan - June 3, 2009
You paid someone $ for a jersy?
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
I'm really struggling
with what jersey to get next.
Rami
Sori
Lilly
are, I think, my top choices, but…
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
can't go wrong with Rami
heine41 - June 3, 2009
that's what I'm thinking
still torn, tho.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
of those choices
definitely Rami. Even after he’s gone, I have a feeling you won’t feel bad wearing the jersey. Like a Kerry Wood jersey, still see people wearing them all the time.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
I have a Wood
blue jersey.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
thats understandable
Rami > Ted > Sori would be my order
heine41 - June 3, 2009
Mine too
gwood - June 3, 2009
I would lean
towards Rami as well, unless the Cubs resigned Lilly, then I would get his.
gwood - June 3, 2009
Amazing Al
you are so positive after all of the Cubs daggers through your heart.
It is very admirable on the one hand, yet perplexing (to me) on the other.
And tonight the team faces Derek Lowe. When was the last time they beat him?
The E-Man - June 3, 2009
I was there last night.
Frustrating game thats for sure. Crowd was probably 50/50 cubs/braves fans.
However I was surrounded by braves fans and was sitting next to a smart braves fan which I always enjoy anywhere.
Cubs played great baseball for 7 1/2 innings. Timely hitting, a couple bombs, great double play turned by Blanco early in the game to keep Wells on pace to face the minimum.
Then it blew up.
Even though Wells had only thrown 83 pitches I agreed with the removal. Had just lost the shutout then a wierd play where Lee just drops a throw. Bring in a fresh attitude before anything crazy happens. But why Marmol in this situation, four run lead, one guy on. This seems like Guzman to me. However, Marmol needs to due better obviously, but doesn’t this seem to happen to a lot of late inning guys when they come in to games that are not exactly close.
Top nine the cubs responded with nothing and went 1,2,3 and that hurts but the lead is still there.
My only thought on Gregg’s ninth is it happens. He struck out Anderson on a good breaking pitch that bounced close to the plate from my angle. It looked like Soto might have been a little slow but it also appeared to bounce a little oddly. Still have to get frenchy out who I mentioned to the guy next to me he could delay his demotion to AAA with a big swing, which he ultimately got (damn).
Hielman is what he is. I was glad he gave us at least one more chance to score runs.
Few other thoughts. Why pinch hit for Soto if your going to bunt. Let Soto at least try, I know he hasn’t done it a lot if at all, but why lose a player in an extra inning game to give up an out. Killed me. Also, you must walk Chipper in that situation (you did it earlier). Face McCann with the double play in tact.
Terrible ending to the game but what a promising start to Randy Wells career as a Cub. I was excited about that leaving the game.
Sorry for the Length, but a couple of quick things from the stands last night.
A family of four braves fans sitting a few rows behind me started a, hey you know he is throwing a no-hitter, really a no hitter, (increasing volume) no seriously a no hitter… right before Chipper got his hit. I am not superstitious so I found this quite funny.
But not as funny as the drunk braves fan with the annoying voiced gf cubs fan who called everybody in his phone to tell them he was at a game that went to overtime. Yes he used overtime numerous times, never extra innings. Spectacular.
And last but not least the guy who answered the mid inning trivia question of who did Jeff Francouer hit his first ML HR against by selecting the Red Sox from the three options of Cubs, Astros, and Red Sox. Brilliant (the smart braves fan next to me said as soon as he read the question fourth ML at-bat vs. the Cubs, which I never confirmed, but believed)
I noticed a bunch of these things have been discussed since I started typing but oh well and I completely agree with you Craig (I did the same thing this morning).
Thanks for reading (if you lived threw it).
Wad - June 3, 2009
Overtime?
That guy should hand in his man-card.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Agreed
Used it at least 10 times. Gave me a good chuckle in a frustrating moment.
Wad - June 3, 2009
Speaking of pinch hitting for Soto with Scales
That was a great bunt, wasn’t it? Ugh! No wonder our minor league system is a joke, a guy who’s been there for years can’t even execute a simple sacrifice!!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
The sacrifice bunt itself is just stupid IMO
you have a better chance to score with a runner on first and no out than you do with a runner on second and one out.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Here is an old chart
Runs scored per situation
nji232 - June 3, 2009
True
Just send Fox up there and let him rip away!!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
+1
Sac bunt in that spot = stupid
Especially with Blanco and Hill coming up next. Can we really expect a bh out either one of them IMO…..you only bunt there if you have some good hitters coming up.
Personally, I think this is a pretty bad team right now………..
plenz - June 3, 2009
not to mention
the move burned TWO players
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Thats what killed me the most.
But I also agree we shouldn’t have even been bunting in that situation.
Wad - June 3, 2009
This was the most painful regular season loss I can remember in recent memory.
First, Randy Wells deserves a victory, and we’ve been denying it to him for weeks. Second, we needed to get a hot start on a long road trip, and everything was clicking through seven innings. Third, our biggest weakness—our bullpen—couldn’t hold a 5 run lead. I was simply ecstatic through 7 innings, then was resorted to looking between my fingers as my hands covered my face the rest of the game. I have no idea how teammates can trust guys like Marmol, Gregg, or Heilman after last night’s crap. What a heartbreaker.
And to top it off—Jeff Franceour hit the dong! Jeff Franceour! Bob Brenly was amazed that Frenchy had only run the count to 3-0 ONCE this season…then Marmol did the same damn thing! Walked him on four straight pitches! This kinda thing is inexcusable.
Finally, as for the game threads…the trolls come out of the woodwork when we are losing. There’s nothing we can do about it. Get a few jabs in and make fun of them, but then just ignore the buggers. It’s been this way for a loooong time on BCB game threads, it’s not going to change. In fact, it only gets worse when we lose a lot. Deal with it.
Dan
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
I remember Dempster imploding in New York a few years ago as worse,
but that’s just because I like beating the Mets. I agree the bullpen is our biggest weakness, and a predictable one. I’m curious whether Lou or Hendry had most input into the makeup of the pen: I think Hendry cedes too much roster responsibility to his manager.
Inkin - June 3, 2009
I felt so bad for Wells.
The guy was awesome last night. I don’t even know what to think of Marmol any more. His on again off again pitching is going to grow tiresome.
I agree something has to be done with Soto. Whatever they decide they need to do it soon.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
Unfortunately
it is a “tricky business”. I heard Todd Hollandsworth discussing the same. The “wrong” call by the manager could have some psychological lasting effects on a young player.
The E-Man - June 3, 2009
Thanks Wad
for the local report! These are always fun to read. My friend and I believe that other than Milw., St. Louis, and AZ – Atlanta may have the most Blue fans of any city.
The E-Man - June 3, 2009
Its hit or miss in Atlanta
Out of the other 4 games I have been to this year, I have always had at least 1 knowledgeable fan near me.
But then again you also have the guy who bought the ticket to get the free admission to the local exotic dance club after the game.
Both are interesting.
Wad - June 3, 2009
I don't want to think about this game,
all I have to say is Randy Wells look very similar to Chris Carpenter. I’m talking strictly looks, not sure if that comparison has been made here.
slocs55 - June 3, 2009
Yeah I hope he isn't that
Pitching stuff wise that would be an okay thing, but Chris Carpenter is far from a reliable pitcher.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
yeah, who wants a pitcher who won 15, 21, and 15 games in three straight years
he’s hard injury problems the last few years, but when he’s healthy, he’s as reliable as they come. Oh, and he’s 3-0, with a 0.62 ERA this season
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
You take Harden, Prior, Wood, and Carpenter
I’ll take pitchers who stay healthy.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
hmmm, I don't remember mentioning Harden, Wood, or Prior
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'm just giving more examples of pitchers who get hurt
I don’t understand people’s love of pitchers who are always getting injured.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I don't have a love of pitchers who always get hurt
but claiming you don’t want Randy Wells to be anything like Chris Carpenter is sort of ridiculous
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I would prefer Randy Wells not become a pitcher
who is paid 15 million and gets hurt every season. If he has the same stuff, fine. But I don’t want to hear the names of injured pitchers thrown around, because they are just that- injured pitchers who are full of empty promises.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Again,
I was just talking about their appearance.
slocs55 - June 3, 2009
Interesting...
kandybear said the exact same thing last night…
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
Anyone think
that Marmol is falling into the every other year thing for relievers because of the overuse the year before? His walk rate is horrible.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
ding ding ding ding ding
Lou’s blankie for the past two years, plus all the winter ball he threw. His arm has been used and abused.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I don't think walking every first batter you face has to do with arm trouble.
I think it has to do with being mentally prepared to pitch when you come into the game. Marmol has been giving us this first-batter-jitters for the whole season now.
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
+1
He had stuff breaking a foot. Just not over the plate. Not indicative of arm trouble, but trouble between the ears.
thermal54 - June 3, 2009
loss of command
IS indicative of arm trouble
it happens ALL THE TIME.
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Well, if he's got arm trouble,
I’m sure we’ll hear about it shortly.
If we don’t .. then what will you say?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
if it is, what will you say?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
so is this what its come down to?
he has to get hurt for my thesis that his arm is fatigued and it’s effecting his performance to be accurate????
I thought the completely different pitcher we’re watching on the mound this year would be enough
let me ask you this…. is this the same Marmol you saw last year?
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
that's actually a fairly interesting question
he certainly went through a stretch where he was terrible, and pulled out of it. Isn’t it possible this is just Marmol’s thing? He has a terrible stretch and then pulls out and becomes dominant
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
You actually made a good point
Credit where it’s due.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
we're still waiting for you to make one
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
this is exactly what people defer to
except this “terrible stretch” is now 1/3 of the season…. at what point do you admit its not just a bad stretch
Marmol has never had this extended a period of a stretch like this since he’s converted to a reliever over 3 years ago
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
So he's never been good
this season? Is that what you’re saying?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
terrible is a relative term for him
used by the poster above, not my words
he’s been “good” compared to other mediocre relievers, but for Marmol he hasn’t been “the Marmol we are used to” very often
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
He's had his good days
and his bad days, just like last year. And just like 2006, when he couldn’t find the plate with both hands.
Do you remember that?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
2006...
you mean when he was a starter?
as a reliever he’s NEVER had this level of command issues for this extended a period of time
his 2006 relief numbers are identical to his 2007, 2008 BB Rates
2006 BB Rates as reliever: 3.86 BB/9
2007 BB Rates as reliever: 4.54 BB/9
2008 BB Rates as reliever: 4.23 BB/9
2009 BB Rates as reliever: 8.63 BB/9
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
As a starter
Yes, not as a reliever.
Please, call Jim Hendry and have him give Marmol an MRI, so we can end this foolishness once and for all.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Please provide us with the number
I’ll be happy to make that call.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
1-800-IM-A-DOOF
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Wait a minute!
that number didn’t work!
heine41 - June 3, 2009
Try 888 instead of 800
:)
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
damnit im on hold
heine41 - June 3, 2009
That happens a lot
It’s a pretty popular number.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Seriously
You suggest I call Jim Hendry, provide me with his direct line and I will be more than happy to make a phone call to him.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
again...
you’re focused on whether he’s hurt or not as being the indicator
i’m focused on his performance not being anywhere close to the same and FATIGUE effecting that performance and perhaps disguising an injury or that fatigue is increasing the chances of an injury down the road
FATIGUE EFFECTING PERFORMANCE IS MY ARGUMENT
not that he’s absolutely 100% hurt right now. There’s a chance he’s not, there’s a chance he is, i dont know. What i do know is this isn’t the same guy we had watched for 2 years prior
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
spot on
this guy (Marmol) is on pace to appear in 84 games this year after appearing in 82 last year. This workload is bound to catch up with him. There have been games he has appeared in that certainly he didn’t need to and last night was on of them.
Hendry and Piniella both to blame on this.
Why exactly is David Patton on the roster if he never pitches except in blowouts??
wicubfan - June 3, 2009
Patton is a Rule 5 draft pick.
Barring a trade, the only way to get any value for him is to bury him in the bullpen for the season.
daver - June 3, 2009
understood..
but essentially you’ve decided to play with a 24 man roster whilst the rest of the league uses 25..
wicubfan - June 3, 2009
Pretty much.
daver - June 3, 2009
to ensure
Marmol blows out his arm????
smart move by the Rockies
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
I also think
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out his bread and butter is the white castles so no need to be extra agressive. I’m sure he’s very well known to everyone in baseball by now.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
bread? butter? white castles?
I’m getting hungry
TC Cubby - June 3, 2009
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Then could it be
that he is overtaxed mentally by constantly walking a tightrope every other day for so long?
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
control tends to go
when you have an arm injury.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Agreed.
It’s mental at this point. He’s lights out filthy one minute and then very wild the next.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Walking the first batter
seems to be perfectly acceptable for all our relievers.
VegasCubFan - June 3, 2009
I wonder
if he hasn’t become afraid to pitch to contact and instead tries to strike everyone out. The blown save/loss in the WBC seems to have really gotten into his head.
gwood - June 3, 2009
i made an entire post about this
using statistics to suggest as such and the majority of the community here chooses to believe ANY other excuse they can come up with, whether its: a) Mental; b) alternating years of bad command (which doesn’t statistically hold up but that’s cool); c) just a poor start, and needs more time, etc
people choose their side of the argument and then stay in it, refusing to acknowledge strength in the other side’s argument or bring any “proof” to the table. They just always return to “mental” something that can’t be proved…
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
link here
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/5/16/877428/the-elephant-in-the-room-carlos
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Fox...
Tearing the cover off the ball, doesn’t even get a chance to swing the bat in a 12-inning game?
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
+1
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
This goes back to what Sue said above
Craig in South Bend - June 3, 2009
+100!
Lou sometimes looks clueless in the dugout.
Itchy - June 3, 2009
With
Bradley’s latest boo boo, Fox needs to get some starts in RF.
Slakkr - June 3, 2009
Doubtful...
With Reed hitting lately, Lou will probably go with RJ in CF and Dome in RF.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Right.
And yesterday people were discussing the “best way” to give Johnson more at-bats…
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
Start Fox at 3rd Base
I like Fontenot but he is too short to play 3rd. Escobar hit a ball by him in the 12th and eventually came around to score. A normal sized 3rd Baseman makes that play at 3rd, it was really a catchable ball, that Ramirez gets too. I would like to see Fox at 3rd for a few days. Lou has put him in there during the 9th inning of a few games (last week) so why can’t he start a game there?
tripdenten - June 3, 2009
Well,
If this trip bears craptastic results, then yes. By all means. But for the next few games in Atlanta and Cincinnati, I wouldn’t experiment with Fox at 3B quite just yet.
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
Because other teams will exploit that weakness.
daver - June 3, 2009
I would
Fontenot can not make routine plays at 3rd base because he is too short, it happens almost every game, and can cost us runs. How is that worse that at least trying Fox there? At least Fox played 3rd in the minors consistently, where as Fontenot did not. I am sorry but you can’t play 3rd base if you’re 5’6.
tripdenten - June 3, 2009
he makes the routine plays fine.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I think you're overvaluing height.
Fontenot may be short, but he’s not too short to field a ground ball or bunt and get the ball to first base. Apparently, Jake Fox can’t even do that much dependably. I’d rather stick with LBR than roll the dice on Jake’s alleged ability to snare the odd liner over his head – and I emphasize alleged.
daver - June 3, 2009
I just threw up a little bit
in my mouth.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Hawt
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
I just want to apologize
For my behavior on the boards last night. I was out drinking with some friends before getting on the game threads right before the Cubs had their meltdown.
Not that it should be any sort of an excuse, but I was pretty quick to challenge anyone who was attacking my team, and in doing so, I was using some pretty poor language choices.
Again, I want to say sorry to whomever might have been offended by my language.
I love this community, and should respect it as such.
heine41 - June 3, 2009
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Yeahbut...what were you drinking?
Spotted Cow? Fat Squirrel Brown Nut? PBR? Karkoff?
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
Lol, Killians and Bud Light Lime
heine41 - June 3, 2009
That's an interesting mix . . .
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Yeah no kidding
Don’t know how it ended up happening, or how I was drinking on a Tuesday night
heine41 - June 3, 2009
It happens
I was tempted to hop into the game thread as my roomates and I were drinking and watching the cubs and the cards game, but man when Gregg blew it, I would have been in there ripping him apart, glad I didnt.
jkobus - June 3, 2009
Yeah, I was in rare form last night
heine41 - June 3, 2009
That's almost as bad
as drunk calling your ex g/f.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
oh man that sure is fun
I respect BCB much more than the ex lol
heine41 - June 3, 2009
aw, man...
how’m’I supposed to respect you now? BLL? Ew.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
To each his own bro!
I love the stuff. Can’t help it
heine41 - June 3, 2009
I enjoy it also
Especially when it is extremely hot outside. Like GA in the summer.
Wad - June 3, 2009
Yep. They have the summer state of mind thing correct
My first BLL experience was Alpine Valley last year tailgating for DMB. Re-Fresh-Ing.
heine41 - June 3, 2009
Good Man
It takes a big man to admit a mistake. And if they didn’t lit beer drinkers on this blog, most of us would be gone.
CubbieFaninOhio - June 3, 2009
Chris Robinson
the catcher the Cubs got from Detroit in the Neifi deal, is hitting around .333 in Iowa. Until now, his rep was a good defensive catcher who couldn’t hit.
Bring him up and send Soto down.
Clark Addison - June 3, 2009
That sounds exactly like Soto
nji232 - June 3, 2009
You mean "Fats" Soto?
Itchy - June 3, 2009
Sounds Exactly like a ROTY we have on our team
heine41 - June 3, 2009
It's time for Soto to sit.
It’s June, we’re two months into the season. Our offense has been a big problem all year.
We have a guy who’s surprisingly hitting very well in Koyie Hill. We can’t afford to continue to trot Geo out there when he’s simply not getting it done.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Turning Point
I can’t help but feel as if last night’s game will be looked back on after the season as the turning point of 2009. For all of it’s problems, this team is only 4 games out. How they respond to last night’s lose will, IMHO, determine the fate of the ’09 season.
Here’s to hoping that the Cubs dwell only on the positives from last night and get the first W of the road trip tonight.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
Good point
The so-called “turning point” in 2007 was against the Braves, too.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
All the Soto talk...
and no mention of Hank White……
Guys isnt it funny that Hank White leaves and Soto starts to suck?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Now, here...
… you’re going to get all the people pointing out that Blanco has been bad this year, and that’s true.
But sometimes a player’s value to a team is beyond statistics.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
Beyond...statistics...does...not...compute...
Yeah, I agree. I said something just like this a few months ago. I think it was too early in Soto’s development to let Hank go.
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
I've been saying this all year.
BigJohnAZ - June 3, 2009
Yup. We need him back. Too late now.
Thanks, Lou and your LH hitting!
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
Oh, not this, too
We’re already in mourning around here for DeRosa and Wood. Now you’re going to throw a .179-hitting backup catcher into the bonfire, too?
I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again: If this team is thrown into a major tailspin because it no longer has a journeyman infielder, a backup catcher and an oft-injured reliever, than it wasn’t that good in the first place.
Christ on a bike.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
I disagree.
Blanco was/is a decent hitter for a backup, was GREAT defensively behind the plate, called a great game, and was obviously an important mentor to Geo.
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
especially since Soto himself said the Blanco was a big help to his development
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Fine, then
The reason this team is .500 has nothing to do with missing its best hitter for an extended period, nor that many of the other regulars — almost all of whom were on the team last year — are underperforming.
It’s because they don’t have a spunky utility man, a closer who’s always one pitch away from ending his career and a journeyman catcher who can’t bat his weight, who even though he’s good defensively has been more than exceeded by his replacement.
I give up. You people are geniuses.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Or you can stop putting words into peoples' mouths
We are simply saying that Soto’s struggles may have something to do with Blanco’s absence, plain and simple. So, relax with the “genius” comments, ok?
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
I was talking about Hank White...
You desided to bring up Wood and DeRosa….
Who misses who?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
oh look, another personal attack
how strange.
Did anyone, ANYONE say the reason the team is .500 is because Henry Blanco isn’t here?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
That certainly is the implication
Hank White’s not here, so Soto sucks, so maybe if Hank White were here, Soto wouldn’t suck and the team would maybe win a few more games.
Insanity.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
this is hilarious
you run around this site constantly setting up strawman arguments, then knocking them down, and calling people names.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Didn't you ragequit this site in a huff last week?
Why are you still here?
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Just to bug you
It’s my mission in life.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
it certainly appears to be
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Now I know
how Dan Bernstein feels sometimes on his radio show.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
I don't know who that is, but I'm sure you think that was a hugely clever comment
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Look it up
I’m not doing your homework for you.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
I didn't ask you who it was. I don't care who it is
like I said, I’m sure it think it was hugely clever.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Not nearly as clever
as “WanderingWanderer” is. A real laff riot.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
oooooh burn!
I suppose in grade school making fun of someone’s name might actually serve a purpose, not so much here
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
especially coming from someone who just borrowed someone else's name
and put “not” in front of it
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Lest somebody
think it was really him, genius.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
so, your contention is that, you were forced to use the name
Bruce Froemming in some way, and as a courtesy to the rest of us, you put a “not” in front of it?
You crack me up
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Really?
1030 in the morning and this stuff already? Com’on guys.
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
what's a better time for you?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Jeeze. Nevermind.
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
sigh
it appears that BLou’s cranky grandmother has gotten into everyone’s rice-krispies this morning…
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
My dad can beat up your dad.
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
Are you using the third person and referring to yourself as “it”?
ol Pete - June 3, 2009
usually
I more or less back you up. But you’re missing the point on Henry Blanco’s value.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
another victim of hitting right handed
nji232 - June 3, 2009
He was a good backup
But does he make that much of a difference? No. If he did, he wouldn’t be a journeyman, now would he?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
it's not a matter of his performance
on the field.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Off the field
can be important too, of course. But does every player need a security blanket? And if some do, is it worth keeping them on the roster solely for that reason? I’m not sure it is.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Blanco
was a good back-up catcher. We didn’t keep him for his bat. IIRC, we ended up paying Bako and Hill about the same amount as Blanco was going to get. It was just one more change that didn’t really have to happen. He was going to play in maybe 60 games, and start maybe 30. But the intangibles he provided may have proved to be more important than his in-game performances.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
There were rumblings that the Cubs weren't happy with his approach late last year
I’m not sure if they felt that outweighed the mentor aspect or not.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
I remember that
and I don’t know. Perhaps Soto told them that he was fine without Blanco. Perhaps they didn’t ask him.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I think they'd take a player's feelings into consideration
But it wouldn’t be the main criteria
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
I agree
and it’s the sort of decision that you only think is bad in hindsight.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I can't buy that, drew
If that were the case, those intangibles would have kept him in Minnesota or Atlanta or Milwaukee.
Remember, the cemeteries are filled with people who can’t be replaced..
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
no
because he didn’t find someone like Soto whom he bonded with so well.
It’s all speculation. I don’t deny it.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Oh, I know
I guess we’ll never know. But it’s hard to believe it would make that much of a difference.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
But Soto was so depressed
that he hit the fridge and ate all the ice cream.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
again, plenty of catchers had careers extended because certain pitchers had
“personal” catchers. It’s not like it’s unheard of. Blanco brought a decent bat for a backup, and good defense as well, which is usually all you look for in a backup catcher.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
So a catcher has a personal catcher, too?
Maybe Hendry can find Linus’ security blanket someplace and stick it in Soto’s locker.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
dude, just TRY not being obstinate for five minutes
the point is, you behave as if keeping Blanco, (who contributed to the team on the field as well) in PART because he was mentoring Soto, and that might have helped Soto’s development is COMPLETELY unheard of.
It’s not. It’s been done in other situations.
It’s not like Blanco was 0 for 159 last season, and couldn’t throw to second base on the fly
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Hank White
won us at least one game with his bat, IIRC.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Yep
Game winning RBI in the 10th (or 11th?) against the Cards. It was the Edmonds 2 HR game.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
I also think it bears mentioning that Hendry's original replacement plan
was Paul Bako, who at the plate is (at best) the equivalent of Blanco, but didn’t have the relationship with Soto that Blanco did.
It seemed entirely to be a move just to make a move. And is one of the many that had me scratching my head about this offseason
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
It was a move
to save money more than anything.
gwood - June 3, 2009
funny
but didn’t Blanco and Bako sign for the same amount of money?
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
I think Blanco made a couple hundred thousand more
but I also don’t know what Bako’s buyout was
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Blanco's buyout
was $300,000. He signed with the Padres for 1 year and $750,000. His previous contract with the Cubs was 2 yrs $5.25 million.
Paul Bako carries a $178,279 payroll obligation for the Cubs in 2009.
So, assuming Blanco signed with the Cubs for the same amount he signed with the Padres, the Cubs saved about $270,000. It’s possible the Cubs saved more because we don’t know what the Cubs would have re-signed Blanco for.
(All Contract info from here)
gwood - June 3, 2009
The market collapsed
Jim Hendry didn’t see it coming (a lot of people didn’t) and got stuck with some questionable deals that would have been just fine the year before (Dempster in particular). I don’t think anybody thought that Hank White would sign for what he did.
Now, I forget the timing of the deals, so I may be wrong about Hank. But Hendry seemed to have a clear plan, and he executed it.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
nobody thought Blanco was going to command a ton of money
he’s a career backup catcher
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I guess
but how much did we end up saving? It’s not like Blanco was going to demand a multi-year contract worth millions a year.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
isn't Bako
a lefty?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
the phrase is a left handed compliment
and the insult is on us.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
ok, so check it out
NBF, look at this response, and then look at your response to me right above it.
Do you see the difference? that’s what people are complaining about. I’ve essentially said the same thing as WW (who I rarely agree with, I think), and your responses are completely different in tone.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
The biggest difference, drew
is that you know your stuff.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
And
You have perspective enough to balance the good and the bad.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
But
I still think far too much is being made of Blanco’s worth.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Hank White's value
wasn’t necessarily as a player, but as Soto’s quasi coach/father-figure/swami.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
And many of us said so when he wasn't tendered
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
yep
me too.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I wonder if Soto would have reported in better shape
If he knew Hank White would be going Red Foreman on him.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
I guess Soto should just quit now
since he’ll probably never play with Blanco again. So sad.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
do you ever get tired of arguing straw men?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
No, but I do get tired
of arguing with wanderers whose brains are filled with straw.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
another buuuuuurn
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Soto should quit...
eating so much
nji232 - June 3, 2009
no question Soto misses his mentor
Didn’t Geo hit his only homer while Blanco was in town?
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Boooooooo
If thats truly the case then we need to set these guys up with a webcam or something. Lots of guys have mentors and that doesnt mean you’re attached at the hip and “can’t go on” without them.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
tell that to Greg Maddux
who played most of his career with a “personal” catcher
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Funny...
How Maddux liked Hank to catch for him too isnt it?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Gee, wasn't Maddux Marshall's mentor, too?
And he seems to be just fine. Oh, wait, maybe he wouldn’t have gotten lit up by the Dodgers the other night if Maddux had been here …
Again — Cubs fans sometimes deserve all the ridicule they get.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Are you a Cubs fan?
LT - June 3, 2009
Since 1971
but reading some of this stuff makes me embarrassed to admit it.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Reading some of your stuff...
makes us embarrassed to admit it.
:)
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
I know you are
but who am I?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Atta boy...
right on Q!
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
I believe that's "cue"
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
It COULD be Q
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
LOL
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Or Q?
heine41 - June 3, 2009
Keep it coming.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
TWSS
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
but
readingwriting some of this stuff makes me embarrassed to admit it.Fixed it for you
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Wanderer
Please wander someplace else, thanks.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
nope.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
different people
work different ways, Bruce. Marshall has a lot more experience than Soto, and the expectations for him are significantly different.
It’s just a theory, anyway.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I'm not sure about the experience factor
Marshall also doesn’t play every day, either.
There is such a thing as a sophomore slump. But I’m not ready to say Soto would be hitting .300 if Blanco still were around, and I think most baseball people would say the same thing.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
of course we woulnd't say that.
Blanco wouldn’t have prevented Soto’s slump. But he MIGHT have been able to help Soto work OUT of the slump. There’s a lot to be said for having someone be a true mentor for you.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Long distance
It’s the next best thing to being there. :)
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
yeah
but it’s not all that good, either. Plus, Blanco works for a different team now.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
The personal catcher
was not his mentor… it’s two different things. My wife and I make a good team. That doesnt mean I’m reduced to tears and can’t function with out her.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
If you take that theory...
Why did you marry her? Honestly? I am not being an ass – it is a legit question.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Huh?
I don’t understand the question. Are you saying I should do all things with my wife at all times because I married her?
tony412 - June 3, 2009
No no...
I was saying you probably married her because you work well together and you build off of each other – if you didnt, you might be single or married so someone you did work well with.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Right
I wasn’t saying I’d be ok if she died. I meant, we don’t have to be attached at the hip 24/7. As good of a tandem as we are, we are each able to function just as well on our own.
The comparison to Soto and Blanco is a whole different thing. Sure it could have an impact that Blanco is gone, but not to this degree. That’s all.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Okay fair enough....
i see what you are saying.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
there's a corolary there
some players are more comfortable with certain players.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I think the answer
is probably somewhere in between. Soto’s working under a lot of pressure, he’s young, and there are huge expectations.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Sorry for adding gas to the fire
but check this flipping bullcrap. This sorry SOB has done it before. I call shenanigans and a boycott campaign towards Escobar.
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
like i said above
This guy finds himself in the middle of a lot of crap.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
dude needs to start playing soccer
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Absolutely
You see those guys go down clasping their heads when someone goes near them and accidentally bumps them.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
Thing is
that soccer ref’s usually buy this type of bull. Umpires shouldn’t.
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
apparently they do
since Escobar took first on that flop
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Well do I remember that
From the World Cup in Germany a few years ago.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
And that was the elite from around the world
You wouldn’t imagine the travesties I witness every weekend watching Mexican soccer…
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
I think we should nominate him for an award
Best acting job.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
OT
what ballpark was that picture taken in, VT cubs fan?
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
Miller Park
I went to a Cubs game there in June 2007. Z’s first start after he punched Barrett.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
nice! :)
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
It was
Cubs scored a lot of early runs, and took the Brewers fans out of the game. Offhand guess, 55% Cubs fans, 45% Brewers fans.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
Also,
I had AMAZING seats … out in the front row of the loge section out in left field.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
seeing as how you're 4-0 since 2004
I think you need to hop a flight to atlanta! :)
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
I'd like to
I’m going to do my part on the West Coast in August and September. San Diego and Los Angeles in August, San Francisco in September.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
Maybe I should update my sig line
I’ve got a lifetime 5-0 Cubs record. The other game was a win in San Diego in 1989.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
and tell him
streaks/highlights in your hair are not cool.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
When does Lilly pitch?
Somebody should give him a real reason to cry. It would be double special in Atlanta.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
He goes tonight.
Lilly vs. Derek Lowe.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
*grabs popcorn
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Wells is a good guy.
Courtesy of MLB.com:
Wells tried to see the big picture. “I’m not really worried about that now,” he said of having his first win slip away.
But he had to admit later, “It stinks not getting the win. But stuff happens. That’s baseball.”
Im glad that he actually expresses the fact that he is disappointed, but having this happen again, It’s amazing that he isn’t pissed off. It seems like he is handling the whole thing well. I think he should have just pitched a CG and we would be talking about a win right now.
adam316 - June 3, 2009
Great Game Great Loss - The Memory Lingers
This was a tough loss and the memory of it is going to linger on. This is the kind of loss that will be, like past losses, in the back of my head during important games. It will be felt in the nervous energy at Wrigley during close games and heard in the screams and boos.
It seems easier to forget the good games and great wins but not these terrible losses.
mph3 - June 3, 2009
It's the same in poker
Like they say in Rounders, you can recall with tremendous clarity the exact situations in which you’ve lost big hands, but can hardly remember the details surrounding how you’ve won or won consistently
heine41 - June 3, 2009
Al
Enjoyed chatting with you Sunday night. Too bad that first inning ended the game early. The game last night was brutal. Hopefully the Cubs can forget about it and try to beat the Braves tonight.
LT - June 3, 2009
Speechless.
It’s going to take me a while to process this loss. I just cannot believe how many good-to-great starting pitching performances this team has thrown in the garbage this season. I’m trying to draw hope from the strength and consistency of the starting rotation, but a loss like last night worries me that this team is turning into one that finds ways to lose rather than ways to win.
The only meager bright sides I can see – besides the forementioned starting pitching, DLee’s continued success at the plate and a nice play by Dome (who’ll probably see more time in RF with Milton out) – is that the Brewers and Reds lost, too. So the Cubs remain pretty close to both in the standings. As they’re wont to do, however, the Cards won.
daver - June 3, 2009
This one reminds me of some game in 2007
The Cubs were up 5-1 or 5-0 against the Mets at Shea going into the bottom of the ninth, and then they couldn’t get any outs.
Vermont Cubs Fan - June 3, 2009
The days of Dumpster trying to close out games
I think that happened right before Lou’s blowup.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I was at that game. :(
ambrosiadreams - June 3, 2009
Wuertz...
Walked in the winning run in one of those games.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
I could live with an '07-esque team...
…that eventually pulls itself together and plays consistently enough to win the division. I’m more worried about an ‘05-esque team that just succumbs to mediocrity. (I’m not yet quite to the point of invoking the horrific specter of 2006.) Again, the bright side is the Cubs still have a strong starting staff. I’m really clinging to that.
daver - June 3, 2009
Here's the game you're talking about.
May 17, 2007 at Shea.
Dempster actually left the game with a two-run lead. It was Scott Eyre who gave up two straight hits allowing the Mets to win.
That was a defeat just about as crushing as last night. And yet, the 2007 Cubs made the playoffs.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
Yikes, thanks for the memories!
Incidentally, the Cubs weren’t the only team to blow a late-inning lead yesterday. The D-backs were leading the Dodgers 5-1 going into the bottom of the 8th when the Dodgers scored 5 & won the game 6-5.
JFCubFan - June 3, 2009
Slowly but surely on Lee
April was brutal, May was pretty good and June off to a good start too. I hope he keeps it up. Last night, everything seem’d to be going SO well. I was already thinking this could be THE game to turn things around. From one extreme to another.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Missed the Carnage
Went to bed as Marmol was warming up and thought “Oh geez, he’s going to walk a couple guys so this will end 5-3.” Wow, I’m just glad I did not stay up for the rest of the sh*t show
Milton Bradley & Kevin Gregg: Didn’t want them then, have less enthusiasm for them now.
MB will be a total waste of 20MIL. DeRo will have better numbers than him at the end of this year alone, will play more games, would not have been a distraction in the media, and would have been a great substitution in the infield throughout this year’s injuries to date and in the outfield rotation.
The Ryno and I Know - June 3, 2009
Look out...
“Not Bruce Froemming” is going to hunt you down. Dont ever talk about those guys….he gets upset.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
No, I just get upset
when I read ignorant posts. Lot of them here lately.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Then stop posting
You are the source of most of them.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Well, look who's talking
A source of ignorance if there ever was one.
Have a nice day, you very nice person, you!
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
You make no sense...
This is a baseball discussion. If we want to talk about our poor offseason we are allowed too. How is that ignorant?
Lets face it, we had a 97 win team dismantled this offseason because we failed to do anything in the playoffs. Ignorance on us for discussion it? Not really. It is a topic of discussion after a poor performance.
I mean lets look at the offseason scorecard for a minute, what has been positive about it?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
'Dismantled' is too strong a term
And it’s funny that someone’s talking about ignorance in the same sentence after he types in “too” when he means “to.”
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
There ya go...
Opps ya should be you.
Let me correct you – someone’s is technically improper. it should read “someone is”.
Oh and it’s, yea you know it should read “it is”
Clearly all you have is tearing my posts apart gramatically seeing that this is the second time in as many posts, so let me ask you this what do you call this offseason? Gramatically correct or incorrect.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
I call it a work in progress
And I see no evidence — none — that things would be any better if the Cubs stood pat.
The problems, for the most part, are related to people who still are here, not the ones who left.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
"The problems, for the most part, are related to people who still are here, not the ones who left."
Agreed!
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Correct...
and what have the players we gained this offseason done for us?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
So far, they've been about like the returnees
So far. That doesn’t mean those moves weren’t worth doing.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Sooo...
maybe we dumped the players we needed to keep and traded some of the players we have now?
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
So keep DeRosa and Wood and Blanco
and trade Lee and Soto and Soriano.
Yep, that’s a great idea.
Ai-yi-yi.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
you realize you're the only one who came up with that "idea"
right?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
No, actually, higgy did
He just admitted that.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
1/3 i admitted too or to...
however you want me to type it.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
How about "two"
just for variety?
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
Personally...
I would have traded Lee. No doubt. Soriano and Soto, obviously not. But definitely Lee. I would have traded him and i would have also tried to sign Texeria. Yea i am sure you will make fun of me for that, but We would not have had to sign Bradley, and losing Lee’s salary we might have been able to afford Texeria.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
He's got a full NTC
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Which he can waive.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
To go where, though?
daver - June 3, 2009
The Giants would have been a legit target
They needed a first basement and money was apparently not an issue considering that outrageous Renteria contract.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
what would we have gotten back?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I don't know
I was just answering daver’s question. Enough salary relief to keep DeRosa?
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
You'd rather have Mark DeRosa
Than Derrick Lee.
That just about says it all.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
were the Giants in Lee, and what were the offering?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Yeah, IIRC, that was discussed at length...
…following the horrific end of last season. It’s entirely possible Hendry pursued such an idea and it went nowhere. And just because the Giants spent money on Renteria doesn’t mean they would’ve spent more on DLee. I believe they were pretty high on this Ishikawa guy. And they certainly made no effort to get in on the Manny sweepstakes. PLUS, maybe DLee likes his chances of reaching the postseason with the Cubs better than his chances of doing so with the San Francisco Giants. I don’t recall too many pundits picking the Giants to see October this year.
daver - June 3, 2009
indeed
Hendry may have explored it, but the first question would have been to Lee, and if the answer is “no”, then that’s it. No deal.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
But he wasn't going to
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
there's that pesky
NTC again.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
My bad didnt know that.
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
yeah
I think we have Lee and Soriano for a long time. Now, I don’t think that’s the disaster other people do, but they’re still not going anywhere.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Well, we have Soriano for a long time...
Lee is off the books after next year.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
And I agree it is not a disaster...
to have those guys.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
you must not proofread then
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
I do not.
n/t
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
this was in response to
Not Bruce Froeming posting he gets upset when reading ignorant posts
it was meant as a knock on his posts…
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
thanks buddy!
HIGGY - June 3, 2009
Bradley is totally worthless
and every team in baseball is laughing at nitwit Hendry for signing him for so much when the Cubs were the only team that wanted his brittle, crazy, ass!!!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
except
that’s not what happened. Bradley asked to come to the Cubs, from what I’ve heard.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Dome "I was almost laughing"
There are some article of the first-ever Dome-Kenshin meeting on Japanese news media and Dome said:
Anyhow that was too bad loss for you folks – as I said in live thread the best story for me is Dome get winning RBI and Kenshin don’t lose… but it didn’t happen in anyway…
Next game will be televised again because my satellite channel bought contract and started MLB live coverage from this month (thru 2015). I am very happy.
dragonsfanatic - June 3, 2009
Dome has looked real good
I wonder what adjustments he made because he looks mostly the same but is hitting much better.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Dome was having fun last night
He got Randy Wells’ first hit ball and got to have some fun with him.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Sweet! Thanks dragon for the update!!
Recommending you!
dtpollitt - June 3, 2009
Good job, dragons
You have become one of the better posters on this site.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
There's some additional quotes
on this article -
Kenshin is elder than Dome so he has to add “-san” to call to express his respect.
Maybe they had dinner together last night or maybe tonight, are definitely going to order the best Japanese food in Atlanta… and elder person has to pay all of it ;-)
dragonsfanatic - June 3, 2009
Now that -san thing is very interesting
So when Jon Miller is calling Dome Fukudome-san next time we are on Sunday Night baseball, somebody should tell him that he is wrong because Miller is older than Dome.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Miller just thinks he's being clever
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Well he has proven himself
a master of all languages.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
By his over emphasis...
Of all latin players accents in their names.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
God that drives me nuts.
Neifi “PEAR-ez”
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Same here.
daver - June 3, 2009
Kinda like how
he pronounces “Aramis”? Man does that just grate. Part of me was slightly happy that Ramirez couldn’t play Sunday night because then I didn’t have to listen to Miller pronounce his name all night.
gwood - June 3, 2009
The thing is
Miller is a good play by play guy IMO, I just wish he didn’t pretend to be Latin and Asain when a player of a different backround comes to bat.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
I remember
Miller and Morgan did play by play for WBC and Japan’s first baseman was Michihiro Ogasawara, and it was too hard for them to pronounce, so they started call his nickname “Guts” throughout the program. That was too funny.
dragonsfanatic - June 3, 2009
-san
That’s not used just used to express respect for elder person but also general politeness for other person… but it is strange to use it for younger person if they are close friend. So if Kenshin call Dome as “Fukudome-san” is somewhat strange or maybe meaningful…
dragonsfanatic - June 3, 2009
Do Japanese baseball announcers often use it?
nji232 - June 3, 2009
In sporting media
they never use “-san” for all players and athlete at all.
dragonsfanatic - June 3, 2009
Ok thanks
sounds about right, meaning that Miller is just saying something he thinks makes him sound Japanese.
nji232 - June 3, 2009
Really, Al?
“Dunn would have made Joey Gathright useful, as Gathright could have played defensive replacement virtually every day for the last couple of innings.”
A bonus to having Dunn would be that you would have to take him out for a crappier player every game for a couple of innings?
In that case, the bonus to having Milton Bradley is he gets Reed Johnson more at bats! The bonus to having Rich Harden is Randy Wells gets more starts!
You have opened my eyes to a whole new way of thinking about baseball, and for that, sir, my hat is off to you.
Old Style & Ivy - June 3, 2009
I don't think anything
would have made Joey Gathright useful. :D
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
A rule change allowing cars on the basepaths would have
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Best centerfielder on the team. :-)
daver - June 3, 2009
Only if
They changed the rules so you could DH for your center fielder.
Old Style & Ivy - June 3, 2009
He's an awful hitter.
But there are uses for players who are good at defense.
daver - June 3, 2009
Sure
Just not for Joey Gathright in particular.
Old Style & Ivy - June 3, 2009
Gathright's UZR numbers in centerfield are pretty impressive.
He’s proved his ability to play the position at the major league level. That’s all I’m saying.
daver - June 3, 2009
Shagging batting practice?
Working on the grounds crew?
I’d like to see Gathright race that guy at Wrigley who fetches the foul balls behind home plate.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
I wonder
if he was a better CF than Pie.
But you can’t really be the best at anything if your manager won’t let you play.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Pie had a cannon
I still with they hadn’t paid double Pie’s salary to get 1/2 the player in Gathright.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Sheesh.
Twist my words, why don’t you?
Gathright’s only use was as a defensive replacement, something Lou refused to do with him. If Adam Dunn gets four AB in the first seven innings and you put Gathright in for defense, you’ve used both of them to their best, haven’t you?
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
And that's exactly what I'm saying, too.
If Dome was playing center, you move him over to right field to replace Dunn and put a defensive specialist like Gathright in center. Then you win the game.
daver - June 3, 2009
if only
it were that easy… :D
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Guess we'll never know.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
This is a .500 type ballclub playing .500 baseball
It really is no more complicated than that I have concluded. This is a poorly constructed roster with a significantly bloated payroll situation that is what it is.
The lineup? Derrek Lee is what he is at this stage. Ditto Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot. Alfonso Soriano remains what he is too (sure, he’ll go on a couple of hot streaks at some point). Geovany Soto sucks and will actually take place next to Rick Wilkins in the Cubs history books. Fair enough to say that this team is in need of a starting catcher. Kosuke is performing to the best of his abilities. The only player who should be doing better and will do better is Milton Bradley. The remainder of the lineup options are a mix of bench players and journeyman doing about what it is they can do. Aramis Ramirez? I’m not expecting him to be much of a factor for the rest of this season. In fact it’s to the point where he should just go under the knife and get fully ready for next season.
Bullpen? Terrible. I keep reading that Carlos Marmol and Angel Guzman are a dynamic duo, but that is over-reaching on a grand scale. Aaron Heilman sucks and is proving weekly why the Mets couldn’t wait to dispose of him. Kevin Gregg is what he is. Sean Marshall hopefully can be a savior of sorts.
Rotation? Obviously the strength. But the offensive issues of this club combined with a woeful bullpen can’t be overcome to the degree to be anything more than a .500 type club.
Manager? Lou Piniella looks like he wishes he was back home in Temple Terrace Florida working as special advisor to the Steinbrenner boys. There is little doubt in my mind he will be gone after 2009.
Future? A new owner financing $450 million to buy the Cubs combined with a horrendous payroll situation and a largely barren farm system makes me hope for an extreme makeover on the part of Ricketts….get rid of Kenney, Hendry, Piniella, Fleita, Wilkens and start over with a brand new baseball staff.
BLou - June 3, 2009
wow...
he’s soured on sweet lou
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
No...rather Sweet Lou doesn't want to be here
I’m not blaming Sweet Lou for this current mess. Fact is he is doing about the best he can with the roster that has been assembled. But I read his eyes and expressions and see a person who doesn’t want to be here anymore. Lou looks like he is quitting in place similar to what he did in Tampa Bay a few years ago.
BLou - June 3, 2009
the roster assembled
is largely based on his CRY FOR LH hitting
for as much credit as Lou deserves for sorting through last season’s roster and making it extremely useful, he deserves blame for requesting a new one
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
The dilemma of this club can not be neatly blamed on the insistence of going left-handed
That is way too big of an over-simplification. Cubs aren’t the mess that they are because they went all left-handed. Even if the sorely missed Mark DeRosa was still here we would be a marginally better club than we are right now.
Somebody honestly challenge me on the point made above that this is a .500 type ballclub playing .500 baseball.
BLou - June 3, 2009
its a .500 ballclub
when you remove Aramis Ramirez, the team’s best hitter
but to go from 97 wins to say 81 wins is a HUGE jump not JUST because of the Aramis injury
it happens when you downgrade the roster significantly in the offseason. Our strength last year was a tremendous bench and great depth that allowed flexibility.
When you remove DeRosa, you removed all that flexibility and slid everyone up a spot in the totem pole. Then you try to replace those extra roster spots with below average players that tie up more salary (see Miles, Aaron) and you’re downgrading at multiple entry points on the roster
Same thing happened in the pen with the removal of Wood (who I agree shouldn’t have been signed for the contract he was given in CLE), and guys like Scott Eyre (who was removed in season last year and is the LOOGY we’ve all been looking for since)
Lou’s over-tinkering has had an impact on downgrading the roster, just like it had an impact on originally upgrading the roster
A worse roster with worse injury luck this year leaves us with a far worse team
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Let me challenge you on points
Would you agree that the 2008 Cubs were blessed with an inordinate amount of players who had very good production years? And that the 2008 were further blessed with relative few injuries?
The bench you speak of?
- Mike Fontenot was selectively and smartly used to maximum benefit in 08. Asking him to play everyday over-exposes the ability of a 29 year old former journeyman.
- Koyie Hill is an improvement over Henry Blanco
- Reed Johnson is still here, but not having the career type year he had last year.
- Jim Edmonds isn’t here, and lost in the argument is the fact that Edmonds and Johnson combined for nearly 100 RBIs in centerfield last year.
===
Losing Mark DeRosa utterly sucked. But losing DeRosa and Scott Eyre and blaming everything on the “going left-handed thing” is not the primary causal affect for the wheels falling off.
BLou - June 3, 2009
Let me challenge YOU on some points
Fontenot- can’t challenge you on that one, he isn’t a starting player on any of the other teams hoping to compete
Hill- the jury is still very much out on whether he’s actually better than Blanco. He’s been pretty good early on, but there’s no proof he’s an actual step up over the course of a full season.
Johnson- Reed didn’t have a career season last year, in fact, it was pretty much his usual type season save 2007.
Jim Edmonds isn’t here because he’s 205 years old. He’s no where else either.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
ok
agree on the good luck
agree the team was used appropriately last year (until the playoffs when all of the sudden Pineilla stopped managing the exact way he had all season)
Koyie Hill vs. Blanco is a minimal impact
Fontenot is being over-exposed, which is the reason he’s struggling to replicate even 80% of last year’s production. This is on Lou for requesting we get so LH
Reed Johnson is being used the same way he was last year and guess what… he’s performing even BETTER
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsre02.shtml
Here were the moves made to get LH:
Derosa becomes Fontenot (clear downgrade, both offensively and flexibility wise)
Fontenot becomes Miles (MASSIVE Drop)
Hill becomes Blanco (negligible impact)
DeRosa/Edmonds becomes Bradley (was supposed to maintain, can’t have an upgrade over the season posted last year, but has been a massive downgrade)
Throw in the crappy mismanagement of the bullpen:
sending away Chad Gaudin to keep David Patton
replacing Kerry Wood with Kevin Gregg (downgrade)
replacing Michael Wuertz with Aaron Heilman (negligible impact)
replacing Scott Eyre with Neal Cotts/Jason Waddel (huge downgrade)
all those are moves in part made at the request or suggestion of Lou Pineilla either directly through his quotes in the media or through his usage patterns of refusing to use guys
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Well....
I generally agree on most points. But it still isn’t primary causal reason for why this is a .500 type ballclub playing to that actual level. I don’t think we are over-achieving or under-achieving to any degree, but merely playing to capability for the most part.
Outside of Soriano and Bradley, where is all the wondrous offensive production improvement going to come from? Soto? No. Soto is either validating my suspicion that he was a juicer in 2007-08 or has reverted back to previous non-prospect form. His swing is VERY LONG and VERY TIRED looking. And he is shockingly out of shape despite actually conducting rigorous physical activity on a daily basis as part of his job description. Fontenot isn’t going to get better (lets be frank with ourselves on that one).
BLou - June 3, 2009
Soto's significantly overweight
it has slowed his bat
in conjunction with a shoulder injury he hasn’t really had time to rest, he’s a shell of his 2008 self
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
he's doing the best he can
and yet, he’s given up?
Okaaaaay. If anyone else said “Lou looks like he’s given up”, you’d be screaming at them for being a girl or something.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Cubs are the disappointment they are because of the strategic and tactical decision-making of the manager in the dugout
BLou - June 3, 2009
Meant to say "NOT because..."
BLou - June 3, 2009
you got it right the first time
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Partly Piniella's fault, partly Hendry's fault, partly just poor play...
Here are Piniella’s mistakes:
- He overreacted to the playoffs last year, wanting to get more LH. This is why Fontenot became an everyday player and we got Miles/Scales instead of DeRosa.
- He misused and then gave up too quickly on Scott Eyre, who has been fantastic as a LOOGY since leaving the Cubs. Now, we have Cotts/Waddell.
- He gave up too quickly on Chad Gaudin, sticking with “the Rule 5 kid” instead.
Here are Hendry’s mistakes:
- He thought Kevin Gregg was a good acquisition as a closer
- He thought Aaron Miles was a good acquisition as a 2 year, $4+ million utility guy
- He gambled on Bradley (though the jury is still out, it’s been rough going with the injuries so far)
- He probably overrated Dempster (again, the jury is still out, but it hasn’t looked like a good move so far based on 2009 and pre-2008)
- He overpaid a lot of guys, resulting in a bloated payroll and limited flexibility
And of course, players like Marmol, Soto, Fontenot, and Bradley haven’t produced like they expected them to perform. I’m not putting Lee in that category, as he’s rebounded with a very strong May and good start to June. And the injury to Ramirez has made things worse.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I agree with just about all of this...
…except giving up Gaudin in favor of Patton. That’s likely a wash in the here and now – Chad isn’t a very good pitcher and he probably would’ve wound up on Lou’s sh*tlist if he wasn’t there already.
In other words, if Patton wasn’t buried in the pen right now, Gaudin would be. I’d rather have Patton’s upside – and I’m starting to think that the only way to get anything from the Rule 5 process is to do exactly what the Cubs are doing. Yeah, the Good General has been batted around like a toy mouse at a cat convention, but he’s also K’d 14 batters in 15.1 innings of work. So there’s some hope there.
daver - June 3, 2009
The Rule 5 process shouldn't be used by contenders...
That’s my beef. You’re probably right about Gaudin remaining in the doghouse. BUT, you can just as easily replace Gaudin’s name with Wuertz, who Piniella did use to some degree. We should have re-signed Wuertz (who was solid for us for years). I’d arguably rather have Wuertz (and Ceda in the minors) than Gregg. Heck – I’d rather have Wuertz and Ceda in the majors than Gregg and Patton.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Yeah, that makes sense.
Sometimes it seems like Hendry has diluted his “win now” mentality with an almost irrational need to restock the farm system with pitching.
daver - June 3, 2009
well, that's an interesting thought.
what if he’s been told “go into rebuilding mode without looking like you’re going into rebuilding mode”?
A lot of the decisions he’s made look a little like that…
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
A lot of decisions contradict that idea though...
As we traded away a rebuilding player in the Gregg deal. And we took on more payroll with Bradley and Dempster. And we traded away “prospects” in Cedeno and Pie for Heilman.
I don’t think, on aggregate, the offseason equates to any effort to rebuild. If Hendry was looking to secretly rebuild under the auspices of competitiveness, he failed in that regard.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I didn't say
he was doing it well. :P
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Cedeno was NOT a prospect
Not at the end of last season, anyway.
elgato - June 3, 2009
totally agree
DartmouthCubsFan - June 3, 2009
Randy Wells has only given up 6 earned runs in 5 starts
And he doesn’t even have a win to show for it.
Pathetic.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
Yup
I think we all agree on that. Will only make that first one all the sweeter. He’ll probably give up 8 runs the next time out but gets the win because the Cubs scored 13. That’s how funny baseball is.
tony412 - June 3, 2009
Or...
He’ll break some other team’s Gatorade machine in the visiting dugout, when he loses another gem. :)
SackMan - June 3, 2009
if he would throw a perfect game every time he took the mound
he wouldn’t have that problem, would he? clearly this problem can be traced back to wells…
murphymj - June 3, 2009
Really reminds me of...
Getting Harden last year. Guy went like 3 or 4 starts with 10 Ks in each and didn’t get a win for the longest time…
Hilary Lee - June 3, 2009
"Going left-handed" and blaming Lou for strategic and tactical blunders isn't the reason we are a .500 type balllclub playing .500 baseball
Everyone would agree dumping DeRosa was STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. But I’ll pin that more on Hendry’s bizarre 12-step offseason improvement plan that seemed to be a series of domino moves made to have the ammunition to acquire Peavy. But lets get past DeRosa for sake of argument.
Getting left-handed? Gone are left-handed hitters Jim Edmonds and Felix Pie. In there place (sorta) is swith-hitting Milton Bradley who hasn’t done scratch yet. Is the removal of Edmond and Pie for Bradley REALLY the reason for our downfall? I don’t think so despite the fact that Edmonds was well productive in 2008.
Getting left-handed? Micah Hoffpauir replaced the role of Daryl Ward. So far at least Hoffpauir has done more than Ward ever did last season.
So what else am I missing here in the argument? When the Cubs have everybody healthy there are lefties Fontenot, Kosuke, Bradley (a switch-hitter) in the lineup. How is that overly left-handed?!? The bench includes the AWFUL switch-hitting Aaron Miles (who I pin way more on Hendry for being here) and Hoffpauir as the lefties. How is that overly lefty?!?!
Lou? You mean to tell me his alleged strategic and tactical blunders have cost this team a half-dozen plus games!?!? Please.
BLou - June 3, 2009
I also thought
DeRo wasn’t moved to make room for Bradley’s money, but one of about a half dozen to make room/acquire to get Peavy.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Not to argue your point
But we also had to have a left handed hitting back up catcher too.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
DeRosa was removed for Fontenot...
you’ve conveniently overlooked that one, despite your consistent bashing of Fontenot.
The biggest reason they let DeRosa go was so that they could go with Bradley AND Fontenot, and get more LH. And they added Miles because he can also bat LH.
Convenient how you try to ignore the obvious when it doesn’t suit your argument.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I'm officially done with Kevin Gregg as our closer.
D.O.N.E. (in the words of Al). I’m also a pretty positive person when it comes to the Cubs, but Gregg just isn’t cutting it. I’m up for trying anything else, the first of which is giving Guzman the shot at closer. Clearly that isn’t the perfect solution, but at this point ANYONE would be just as good (if not better) than Gregg.
cubswynn - June 3, 2009
I vote for letting Randy Wells close games on the days he doesn't start.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
He should've been allowed to close yesterday's game too.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Or maybe Ted Lilly.
Yeah, I said it.
daver - June 3, 2009
Lilly should throw every inning of this season
note: to those of you who like to argue with everyone on this site, this is clearly not said in a serious tone
murphymj - June 3, 2009
SCREW YOU MAN THAT IDEA IS CLEARLY REDIC!
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
that idea
should be DFA’d, along with the Gatorade Dispenser.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Technical balk
Take your place in between the Gatorade machine and Larry.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
well put
murphymj - June 3, 2009
Make Harden the closer.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
It worked for Wood
It would be a horrible waste of Harden’s talent, but I guess his talent doesn’t do much good in the dugout, eh?
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
This idea has been tossed around quite a bit of late.
I believe one big strike against it is Harden needs an inordinate amount of time to recover from pitching. Oh, and the whole “putting a guy with elite stuff in the bullpen is a waste of his talent” thing.
daver - June 3, 2009
I think the bullpen is for guys who can only throw...
fastball/slider. Let them come in, throw their only two pitches for an inning, then get out. That’s why Marmol is perfect for the bullpen.
I think you’re right about Harden’s recovery time. The bullpen isn’t likely to prevent him from breaking down – in fact, it might increase the risk.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
What is Harden's other pitch?
I thought he threw a fastball and a change.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
He's rumored to throw a slurve, isn't he?
daver - June 3, 2009
he's far more valuable
as a starting pitcher than he would be as the closer. And I’d bet he can’t pitch on consecutive nights.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I don't disagree with your first premise
but I think he could handle pitching on consecutive days if it’s only for an inning. Even Wood’s fragile arm was able to handle that. So was Smoltz’s
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
maybe
but Woody spent time as a reliever first.
I just don’t think it’s worth it.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I don't neccesarily think it is either
I think Harden can still make this one of the best rotation in the bigs, if they can all get healthy at the same time at some point this season. But at some point in his career, Harden might find himself better suited as a closer.
It would have to be going into the season as a closer though, not switching mid-stream
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
All I'm saying is...
If you can’t get the innings you’re supposed to get out him as a starter, because of health issues, then get your best stuff in another area that can help your team just as much.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
if that's the case
I’d rather turn him into a long reliever. If he can’t go every five days, have him ready to go three or four innings when Demp or Z or Lilly struggle early.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
And, we'll still lose the game, when our closer fails to close. LOL.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
I still think
Gregg can turn it around.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Face it. He's been pretty awful.
It’s not even hard luck… he’s walking guys and giving up HRs
SackMan - June 3, 2009
I know.
Right now, he’s pitching more like Howry and less like Woody.
But I think it’s possible.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I wish I could agree with you Drew
but his season so far just seems to be a continuation of the kind of pitching that lost him the closer’s role in Florida
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Very disappointed in you guys.
A lot of you kept feeding the trolls. Comon now!
xene - June 3, 2009
are you talking to us or the Cubs?
tony412 - June 3, 2009
everyone that responded to that douche bag troll last night
xene - June 3, 2009
you mean Circles?
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Can we all agree
That this team is just not that good right now and may never live up to their expectations…
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
It's weird how these expectations
even got that high to begin with. Most didnt like the offseason moves and after last year’s post season, should we really be this surprised to be at .500?
tony412 - June 3, 2009
True
But I still had decent expectations for them, I thought they would be a guarantee for the playoffs, but right now they are just a bad team….with a bad manager
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
or that the team is just not getting the breaks and/or playing well right now but...
may still end up living up to their (pre-season) expectations
doofus cubs guy - June 3, 2009
I am still hopeful
But looking at realty im just not too sure about this team…
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
I'll agree
that the team may not live up to expectations. But that’s because they’re playing below their level.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
We can agree with the former if it's applied to last night.
And we can agree we’re worried about the latter, yes.
daver - June 3, 2009
2 games behind
phillies in 2008 after 50 games
doofus cubs guy - June 3, 2009
IF
Fontenot ar 3rd
Theriot at ss
Blanco at 2B
lee at 1B
This could be overall the worst infield ever
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
Umm
Aramis 3B
Izturis/Cedeno/Nefi SS
Nefi/Cedeno/2B
Phil Nevin 1B
nji232 - June 3, 2009
It was actually worse than that at one point
Before we got Nevin, Mabry and Walker were playing first.
elgato - June 3, 2009
...and to think an infield like THAT on a team with a $136 million payroll
THAT is the sobering thing about this mess. You’d rattle off a list of infield names like that and would think you were talking the Washington Nationals or Seattle Mariners.
BLou - June 3, 2009
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
Well, $15 million of that IF is on the DL...
You replace that with:
Ramirez 3B
Theriot SS
Fontenot 2B
Lee 1B
And it doesn’t look nearly as bad, does it?
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
but still mediocre at best
and BAD for 136 M payroll
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
The payroll is in the rotation and OF...
Guys like Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley, Zambrano, Lilly, Dempster, and Harden. That’s probably $75-80 million of the salary right there.
And regardless, the infield isn’t THAT bad…
.770 OPS from Lee
.900+ OPS from Ramirez
.800 OPS from Theriot
.700 OPS from Fontenot
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Who would you prefer to have?
I think that’s a pretty decent infield.
daver - June 3, 2009
Especially when you're paying ~$100 million at other positions...
The money has been spent on the OF and in the starting rotation. Unless you want a $150 million payroll, it’s hard to upgrade over what we have.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Theroit
Is not a shortstop he is a second baseman and fontenot is not an everyday player…
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
That's funny.
Theriot’s played over 2,500 innings at the position. He must be fooling someone.
daver - June 3, 2009
He is, the only person he has to...Lou.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
even I can't argue
with the fact that he seems to be getting the job done. He’s suffered far more slings and arrows from baserunning or trying to be a HR hitter, and that would happen no matter what position he was playing.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Still weak beyond Ramirez
Look, Derrek Lee is what he is at this stage. Theriot is an over-achiever David Eckstein type and Fontenot is a journeyman being forced into the role as everyday player. How therefore is that a “good” and wisely invested infield on a team that supports the third highest payroll in baseball?
BLou - June 3, 2009
+10000000
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
DLee is probably a low-.800 OPS guy at this point, yes...
Not a star, not bad either. He’ll probably wind up around .800-.825 in OPS this year, despite the horrendous start.
And as I said, the payroll is invested in the OF and in the rotation.
You can complain about the payroll (I agree it’s too high). But it’s not the infield where the money is wasted.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
And to think...
we wanted a switch-hitting middle infielder. So, we signed Aaron friggin Miles for 2 years $4.9 mil in December, and the Dodgers signed Orlando Hudson to a 1 year $3.38 mil deal in February.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
Miles is a year older than Hudson, I might add.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
Hendry thought Miles was a utility guy...
Hudson was a RH-hitting 2B, so he was never an option.
I agree wholeheartedly that signing Miles was a mistake.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Hudson = switch hitter
although he wasn’t on our radar as we thought Fonty was gold and Hudson was out of price range.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Oops, you're right about the switch hitter...
but the more important part is the non-utility aspect. Hudson wanted to be a starting 2B, and Hendry wanted/needed a utility guy.
Hudson was never a realistic option. The mistake was thinking that Miles was a suitable option.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
The mistake was in convincing themselves that Fonty is an everyday starter.
Hudson could be starting at 2B right now… with Fonty as our utility infielder, as he’s proving to be.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
I can agree with that...
the mistake was COMPOUNDED by thinking that Miles was a suitable utility player.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
and paying him way too much money
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Right...
At $1-2 million for one year, I’d be okay with Miles. It’s the two years and nearly $5 million that’s the problem.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I still don't think...
…Fontenot has gotten a fair audition at being an everyday player because he’s been playing out of position and forced to learn an entirely new position at the major league level.
That said, I have to admit I wasn’t aware Hudson was a switchhitter either. And I’ll further admit that he would’ve been a far better pickup than Miles. Lou could’ve had his LHH starting second baseman (vs. RHP) and a LHH utility player (Fontenot) to boot.
daver - June 3, 2009
Hudson got squeezed by the economy
He was supposed to be in the 8M range as free agent.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Yeah, Hendry's work ethic may have got the better of him here.
He seems to have moved really quickly on a lot of deals.
daver - June 3, 2009
And he maybe would have gottne Demp cheaper too.
It’s like I told my mom, sometimes procrastination works too.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
how long
is Lee under contract?
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
One more year...
he’s a free agent after 2010.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
And where did I say it was "good?"
Reading is fundamental.
“doesn’t look nearly as bad” does not equal “good.”
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Jim Hendry strikes again
nji232 - June 3, 2009
it's a perfectly fine infield.
Fonty is becoming a good 3rd baseman. Theriot has performed adequately at SS. Better than he did last year. Blanco has turned out to be a great defensive infielder; I’d prefer to switch him and Riot, but that won’t happen. And Lee is a great 1st baseman.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
OMFG!
how can you claim to be a knowledgible fan and say this IF is “perfectly fine”??
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
because I just did.
It’s not great. Fonty is playing out of position, and Blanco/Scales aren’t going to score a lot of runs, and the loss of Rami hurts, but Riot isn’t as bad as you think, and Lee put together a very good May.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Riot
IS fine…………………..as a 2B
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
look at his numbers
he’s fine as a SS. There’s a chance he’d be great at 2nd.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
He'd be an excellent 2B for us...
But… until we have a real SS, he’s not going anywhere.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
For a fake second baseman, he's done a pretty good job.
daver - June 3, 2009
ok
but that IF had Aramis
I’d say it’s a draw
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
Ask yourself this...
If Aramis Ramirez is healthy and producing like he does is this still a team that is much beyond that it is? My honest answer to that is no. While I think we would be 3 or 4 games better off by now it still doesn’t take away from my conclusion that this is a.500 style ballclub playing about up to its capabilities.
We deluded ourselves into thinking that 2009 was going to be a cakewalk en route to a third straight post-season. We ignored all those wondrous production totals put up by so many players in 2008. We dismissed that the 2008 Cubs were remarkably injury-free. We poo-poo’d the decline of Derrek Lee. We took a no-worries attitude with a middle infield combo of two journeyman in Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot. We sat here and insisted that the bullpen was strong and deep.
BLou - June 3, 2009
The decline of DLee is greatly exaggerated...
After a horrific start, he’s up to a .770 OPS already. He was over .950 in OPS in May, and has had a nice start to June. You’re a month out of date on bashing DLee.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I must agree on the Cubs record if Ramirez hadn't injured himself
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
I thought Ryan Theriot
was EXACTLY THE KIND OF PLAYER THIS TEAM NEEDS, HE’S A SPARKPLUG!
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Well, when is he going to deliver a spark??
Taking strike three looking off of Soriano is not what we were looking for there.
Itchy - June 3, 2009
And strike 1... and strike 2... looking
SackMan - June 3, 2009
don't ask me
talk to BLou. He’s the one who used to say that. It’s a pretty fast turnaround for him, actually.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
The Cubs probably would have scored ...
…. a few runs during the 8-game losing streak with Ramirez healthy. That might have prevented several of those losses.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
you do realize if we were three or four games better off
we’d be at, or right around first place right?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
4 games better...
And we’re in 1st place. Aramis makes the whole line-up better, especially the guys batting in front of and behind him (Lee and Bradley).
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
and who's "we"
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000
plenz - June 3, 2009
I don't recall too many people saying...
…the bullpen was “strong and deep.” I think many of us thought it was populated by question marks. Would Gregg be able to keep his walks/hits under control? Would Marmol be as good after so much use last season? Would Heilman rebound from his bad ‘08 and get back to his ’05-’07 form? Would Neal Cotts build on his strong K numbers last year and show some control?
Unfortunately, all of these ? have turned to :-( so far.
daver - June 3, 2009
Only one pleasant surprise from the bullpen..
and that’s Guzman. Everyone else has failed to meet expectations so far in the pen (unless you had set a low bar for Gregg, who is right on his 75-80% save rate).
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Is it to early to dismantle??
Put Zambrano on the block………he could bring a ton
Could Lee bring ANYTHING?
Marmol could bring a boatload too
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
pete's sake.
it’s JUNE FIRST and we’re FOUR GAMES BACK. Yes, it’s too friggin early to dismantle. Good gravy.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
(psst)
(It’s June 2nd. Hope you payed your bills accordingly.)
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
3rd. LOL.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
I'm the one who's screwed with a couple bills now...
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
(actually, it's June 3rd.)
chilango2 - June 3, 2009
yeah, I noticed that
after I hit post, but still.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
It's ok... it reminded me to pay a bill. LOL.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
Start the dismantlement!!
1st thing, set brittle softies, Bradley & Harden, and aging DLee on the curb!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
NTC, NTC, really?
daver - June 3, 2009
a boatload of what?
I wouldn’t trade for Marmol right now. not for anything better than what Rich Hill got.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
PATIENCE
we need to be patient, this team will come around and everything will be ok
cubsmania - June 3, 2009
patience?????????
I’ve been patient all my life and I’m tired of it
plenz - June 3, 2009
Well then it seems that you should
go jump off the ledge!!!
cubsmania - June 3, 2009
can't take it anymore?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
turn into a robot and stand on some wood?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
don't jump!
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Nitpick with your sig line
You should change “conference series” to division series. Just sayin’…
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
I always get them mixed up.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Just trying to
help. ;)
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
fixed it. :D
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
What a difference!
Looks much better now!!
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
TWHA
daver - June 3, 2009
I'm standing on the ledge staring into the abyss
looking for a reason to be optimistic. And I just can’t find one
plenz - June 3, 2009
Heres why you should be optimistic....
1) 3 proven MVP caliber players in soriano, lee, and ramirez
2) young up and coming talent including theriot, fontenot, soto, and hoffpauier
3) a great rotation thanks to the pitching wizard rothschild
4) and a battle tested hall of fame manager in Lou Piniella
cubsmania - June 3, 2009
Dude please
can I get a little bit of whatever it is you are smoking?
You are like some of the other sheep here
plenz - June 3, 2009
+1
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Smithe the shepard! and the sheep will scatter!
xene - June 3, 2009
Who are the other ones? Just curious.
daver - June 3, 2009
Both of you guys are fools...
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
And the namecalling begins!
daver - June 3, 2009
Okay
be optimistic but not irrational.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Wow Murph just said that he will be ^shocked^ if Ricketts buys the Cubs
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
The sane Murph that guaranteed Torborg would replace Lefebvre?
Meh
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
why?
plenz - June 3, 2009
didn't give any reason..
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Has anyone checked to make sure Not Bruce isn't Murph?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
lol
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
He's a dumbass!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
can't disagree with you :-)
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
this ownership situation
is killing us. Sounds like Zell is holding this up……..what an ass he is! Unfortunately, it seems that there’s no way they make any significant move to upgrade this year.
plenz - June 3, 2009
Hendry is a problem too!
His acquistions the last couple years are garbage and his drafts have been horrendous(see Ryan Harvey, Pawelek, Grant Johnson, Colvin, Cashner).
Itchy - June 3, 2009
Cashner is horrendous?
he’s got an ERA of 2.01, a WHIP of 1.209 and 20 Ks in 22.2 innings pitched, in Daytona.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Ok, the jury is still out on Cashner but he was a reach and still in A ball.
Itchy - June 3, 2009
where are drafted prospects
supposed to end up? He was only drafted last year.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I said the jury is out on him.
The rest are failures while other teams built their roster with young talent, Hendry just throws money at guys like Bradley! Where is Harvey & Pawelek? Gone! Not never even advanced past A ball! Hendry can’t draft.
Itchy - June 3, 2009
most prospects
don’t pan out. That’s why you draft lots of them.
Bradley is a +Defender, and carries a big stick. He’ll come through for us.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
::stifles laugh::
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
it's alright
I won’t even say I told you so when it happens. :D
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
If it actully happens...
I will tell myself you told me so.
Aramis going down should have been his cue to start coming through.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
heh
I’m not sure it works quite like that. However, his performance was up before he got hurt this time. Have we confirmed if he’s on the DL yet?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
He's carrying a big walking stick right about now.
daver - June 3, 2009
he wasn't a reach
he was drafted close to where he was projected
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
HOW is the ownership thing "killing us?"
Hendry has spent $136 million this season. The highest payroll in the National League. Where is not having a new owner in place hamstringing this team right now?!?!? Do you honestly subscibe to the theory that if only the dull-witted Jim Hendry had another few million to spend this trainwreck would be magically reverted?!?!?
BLou - June 3, 2009
perhaps having an owner would rid us of Hendry?
that would be one way not having an owner is killing us
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Who exactly are you saying "I told you so" to here Al?
No one ever disputed Bradley’s propensity for getting injured, the argument was that he’s so much more valuable offensively and defensively that he was worlds better than the alternatives. Obviously he hasn’t shown his true colors offensively yet (though, to be fair, neither have Soto, Fontenot, Lee, Theriot, or Soriano) but chances are he will turn that around.
He has what sounds like a minor injury, and he’s on pace to play in 130 games right now. Seems like an odd time to gloat.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
you claim no one ever disputed Bradley's propensity for getting injured but then
you claim it’s just a minor injury and he’s on pace to play in 130 games. He would have to play in almost every game from here on out, that seems extremely unlikely. Last season was the best season he’s ever had, and he played in 126 games despite the fact that he could DH for Texas.
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
No, if he played every game from here on out he would play in 150 games
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
cue the "almost"
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
I said that at the pace he’s currently on, which includes time missed to injury / suspension, that he’d play 130 games.
Would you describe his season so far as having played in “almost every” game? Do I need to explain what a pace is?
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
And if he goes on the DL today...
he’ll be on pace to play less than 110 games. Which is about par for the course with him. I’d say 90-110 games would be a good guesstimate of how much he’ll play, given his injury history.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Which is unfortunate but still better than our alternatives this offseason
100 games of Bradley in right is still more valuable than 162 of Dunn, Ibanez, or Abreu.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
You keep saying that as if...
… placing of numbers on a spreadsheet will win baseball games.
It doesn’t work that way.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
God don't trot that tired bullshit out again
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
Wreckard....
has it ever occurred to you that 100 games of Bradley means 62 games of someone else? And that someone else could and would very well be worse than Ibanez, Abreu and Dunn? Bradley is THAT good to make up for a third of a season from a bad baseball player.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
And considering the fact that Bradley has stunk offensively so far...
I can possibly buy the argument that Bradley with an OPS of .925 and great defense for 100 games and 62 games of Reed Johnson could be better than 162 games of a .900 OPS from Dunn and bad defense.
But it’ll be impressive if Bradley winds up with an .850 OPS this year. But I doubt the improved defense will offset the advantage in offense that Dunn is providing.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Agreed and rec'd.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
I'm familiar with the concept of marginal value yes
The argument that Bradley is more valuable takes that into account, and assumes a replacement-value player in his place (i.e. WAR of 0).
Here’s the original thread discussing this.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
I knew that would be the reaction.
It’s the same defensive reaction I get from anyone when I challenge the notion that statistics are the be-all and end-all of baseball analysis, and that nothing else means anything.
Arguing with you about this is futile. There are indeed other factors besides plugging in numbers to winning baseball games. If you were a general manager and managed your team this way, you’d lose 100 games every year.
And don’t go saying, “Well, the Red Sox hired Bill James, the guru of all statisticians, to be on their front office team and they’re in the playoffs every year.” Bill James would be the first person to agree with what I’ve just said.
But you go right ahead believing what you want.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
You're misunderstanding the reaction then.
It’s not an defensive indignation from you challenging the value of statistics, its hysterical incredulity due to the fact that the line of argument you’re suggesting betrays a fundamental ignorance of when and where statistics are valuable.
I’m not talking about having statistics play the game. No one is talking about having statistics play the game. No one has ever talked about having statistics play the game.
What I’m saying is, if you want to compare Player A and Player B, say, to make a personnel decision, the best way to do that is to look at their past performance. The best way to do that is to use statistics, since – and read slowly here to make sure you get this – they represent a player’s past performance on the field. If Player A tends to play less than Player B, you take that into account when calculating their value.
Are you honestly suggesting that Bill James and the Red Sox don’t do these kinds of calculations when comparing possible free agents? That someone who used statistics to make these comparisons would lose 100 games eveyr year? Because if so, I really don’t know what to say to that.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
That's highly debatable...
especially when you consider the way Bradley has actually played.
It’s certainly possible that 100 games of Bradley would be expected to be better than 162 games of Dunn. But that was based on Bradley being a fantastic hitter. So far, he hasn’t lived up to that billing.
At this point, I’d be hard-pressed to believe that 100 games of Bradley will be better than 162 games of Dunn.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it.
So far, I’m unimpressed with him.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
I wasn't a Bradley fan at the time of the signing
and I’m still not. Hindsight is 20/20 obviously, but wouldn’t it have been nice to have signed Ibanez and he put up the numbers with the Cubs as he has with the Phillies?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 3, 2009
Do you realize we needed a right fielder, not a left fielder?
Nothing in this universe indicates that Ibanez would be capable of such a thing. Defense is valuable you know.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
Defense is valuable you know.
we didn’t exactly overvalue defense when we signed Bradley, or added Hoff and Fox to our roster
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
And stop and think how valuable our offense has been the last 2 weeks.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Bradley is a plus defender
And Hoff and Fox rarely get time in the field.
I’m not sure what your point is here.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
+10
daver - June 3, 2009
I haven't seen much plus defense out of Bradley.
Largely, I’d say, because of his injuries keeping him from going at full speed.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
he made a coupla good plays
over the last few weeks. One where he did a flip.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
His Zone Rating is 14.264 for the season in right
So I guess I’m not sure what you’re watching.
If he’d played in enough games to qualify (he just barely missed the cut, by ESPN’s definition of qualified), that would be 2nd best in the league among qualified right fielders.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
Whoops my mistake
It wouldn’t be 2nd best in the league, it would be second-best in all of baseball among qualified right fielders.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
Too bad he's #1 overall in the league at getting hurt by running to 1st base.
SackMan - June 3, 2009
+1
sue369 - June 3, 2009
BraDLey...
To the DL again.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Was it just announced?
daver - June 3, 2009
Listening to The Score...
Bernstein said he was headed to the DL again, not seeing it anywhere else though.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Nothing on any websites.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Right...
I’m doubting the validity of this, but we’ll see.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
Sadly, I'm NOT doubting the validity.
daver - June 3, 2009
We'll probably get a formal announcement pretty soon.
daver - June 3, 2009
Cubs.Com
says nothing about him being on the DL, but does say that Johnson will get more playing time.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
not saying it's true
but Cubs.com is usually about 5th or 6th in stories like this
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
in reporting them I mean
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
that's fine
I was just checking a source. :D
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I'm just joining the thread right now, with over 600 comments..
..and I’m not going to read through all of them. So if this has been said, them I apologize. But I’m putting this game squarely on Lou. Wells was pitching awesome. He was through the 7th inning and only threw 83 pitches. Why not keep him in?!?!?! Our bullpen is atrocious and Lou knows it.
Way to blow the game for us Lou. Leave the damn starting pitching in! Wells hasn’t won a game yet, and yet his ERA is under 2. Let’s put this one on Lou and our bullpen.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 3, 2009
Agree +100
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
+1
why take Wells out with so few pitches??
plenz - June 3, 2009
This plenz character is a fool...
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
express an intelligent opinion
for once before you start name calling me punk
plenz - June 3, 2009
You my friend are a fool at the highest degree...
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
STOP THE NAMECALLING NOW!
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
sorry AL
I didn’t start that
plenz - June 3, 2009
Sorry, I was being immature
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
I'm on to the two of you.
So knock it off.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
To the "two of you"
or to the one of you??
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
That's what I was thinkin'.
daver - June 3, 2009
Be honest
You and Plenz are the same guy, right??
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
A bigger concern IMO
is next year.
1. A further declining Lee at 10 M +
2. A further declining Soriano at god knows how much $
3. Z has been in a slight downward spiral for a couple years
4. Who plays SS?
5. We get another year of Miles…….ughhhhhhhhhh
6. Another year of Lou growing number and dumber by the minute
7. No closer…………and please……..does anyone REALLY see Marmol handling that role?
plenz - June 3, 2009
It's June 3rd
The Cubs are four games out of first without the services of our best hitter.
Let’s see how 2009 plays out before we start worrying about 2010. A lot is going to happen between now and then.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
eh
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
I'm afraid what's going to happen
will not be good
plenz - June 3, 2009
Again
Cubs fans sometimes deserve all the ridicule they get.
Not Bruce Froemming - June 3, 2009
+1
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
Lee has put together a very nice
May.
4 is pretty much set, barring a trade.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Valid points
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
reply is your friend
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'm sure he was talking to me. :)
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Again, explain to me how this isn't a .500 type ballclub playing to its capabilities
Aramis Ramirez has been debated. No question if he were in the lineup things would be marginally better.
But where o’ where is all the rest of this improvement to be had that makes this a 90 win type ballclub?!?!? If anybody says Geovany Soto and Mike Fontenot then kindly explain WHY you are optimistic on either. And what about the rest of the people in this lineup card and bench. WHERE is the improvement coming from?!?!?
BLou - June 3, 2009
I can see
Soto getting it together. Fontenot? Probably not. With or without Ramirez the IF is weak up the middle. The bullpen is horrific……….which IMO is the biggest reason this club wins 78-84 games this year
BLou you are right on the $$ with your comments
plenz - June 3, 2009
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". - Albert Einstein
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Then give me the calculus format....
Seriously. Somebody tell me why this isn’t a team playing to its logical capabilities.
BLou - June 3, 2009
Here's one....
look at the position players career averages and compare them to what they’re doing now.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
"Playing to its capabilities"
So you think that Soto, Marmol, Harden, Bradley, Lee, Fontenot, Theriot, Soriano, Gregg, and Zambrano will all have career worst years?
See above. I know you are afraid of numbers, presumably because a mathematician touched you in your bathing suit area when you were a child, but if you look at the numbers every single one of those players is on pace for a career worst year. Odds are they won’t continue to do that.
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
lol
never give BLou the odds!
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Soto,Marmol,Fontenot and Theriot
have such short histories it’s hard to talk about “career averages”
I agree on Harden,Gregg and Z
Lee is declining……I don’t need OPS numbers or anything else. Watching him play tells the story
plenz - June 3, 2009
Did you watch in May?
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
yes I did watch in May
I watched him drive in a whopping 9 runs batting cleanup
I’d say a pretty soft .313
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
RBI doesn't much matter...
… when nobody else on the team is on base to bat in.
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
.222
this year wirh RISP DOES matter
He’s just one of many problems however
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
How many PAs does that include?
daver - June 3, 2009
Ah, small sample sizes are fun!
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
See below.
RBI is a poor way to judge a baseball player. And if you want hard, you might take a look at his .900+ OPS last month.
daver - June 3, 2009
But those sort of stats disprove the DLee haters!
Oh nooooooooo. Can’t we JUST use the ones that make him look to be in decline? PLEASE?
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
And OPS can be misleading too
like a bases empty double, sure helps the slug% but does nothing to drive in a runner.
I just looked up DLee has had 74 AB with men on and 72 AB with no one on base. About 50%
Not look at Ibanez, 111 AB with no one on base and 86 AB with runners on base.(56% of time- no one on base) It’s also about when you get hits. RBI can be useful in determining that the hitter drives in runs when he gets the opportunities.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Right, but the batter who hits the double...
…has no control over whether a runner is on base. All that matters is he put himself in scoring position. That’s valuable. And I’m no sabermagician, but I believe there’s widespread debate on whether “clutch hitting” even exists. Most RISP stats are based on very small sample sizes of ABs.
daver - June 3, 2009
Didn't want to throw too many stones at Lee
But put me into the camp that believes in clutch hitting. Sori has a creer OPS of 844, Aram has a career OPS of 845. Wouldn’t you want to see Aram in there when it mattered the most? That is because Aram has become a better clutch hitter.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Emotionally, yes.
I’d rather see Aramis up there in a key situation. But I don’t necessarily trust my eyes or emotions when it comes to baseball. And DLee has a career OPS of .861.
daver - June 3, 2009
It's not emotions.
Career numbers..
bases empty Sori 868 Aram 816
RISP Sori 786 Aram 912
Men on Sori 805 Aram 877
So even though they have the same OPS career wise, Aram clearly hits better in these stats. That’s clutch.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
he doesn't control
who gets on base in front of him.
He’s been playing better. That’s a fact.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I'm talking about taking advantage of your situations
I totaled up his month of May only.
Nobody on base 3 HR 364BA 670SLG 1079OPS
runners on base 1 HR 206BA 353SLG 765OPS
He has been playing better, I don’t hate Lee, just need your middle of the order hitter to come through when runners are on base.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Yes, don't let the facts get in the way.
daver - June 3, 2009
So where are the results in terms of "W's" ?!?!?
Those of you with head in sand have to explain this to me. So if indeed we buy into Derrek Lee getting it going with the bat then where therefore are things like this having an impact on the field?!?!?
BLou - June 3, 2009
Because this isn't basketball.
He’s just one guy. And RBI is a team-dependent stat. If other guys aren’t getting in scoring position ahead of him, he can’t drive them in. The fact is DLee hit very well in May.
daver - June 3, 2009
So an alleged productive Derrek Lee is in place and we are still a .500 type ballclub playing .500 type ball
Again, WHERE is all this improvement coming from therefore? Nobody want’s to answer that accept to say that Soto, Fontenot, Theriot and the cast of minor league journeymen who overwhelm our bench are bound to hit better. What, is Andres Blanco going to take us to the promised land?
BLou - June 3, 2009
Well, yeah, that's the problem.
As I’ve said on several occasions: There is no cavalry. There will be no rescue mission. This team is going to have stand and produce on its own merits or suffer the humiliation of watching the Cards walk away with the division. But Derrek Lee has NOT been the problem (lately).
daver - June 3, 2009
Prove to me...
… that soto won’t come around. I’m sure you can prove that… right after i prove that he will. You don’t know any better than anyone else.
Explain to me how Rami being out, which if nothing else (aka the intangibles of having your best hitter and a solid defensive 3B in the lineup BEYOND just the runs he’d put across the plate) has probably cost us a game or four, doesn’t at least get this team a tiny bit of the benefit of the doubt.
Prove to me that Sori’s leadoff homer last night wasn’t the start of another hot streak that’ll allow us to continue to tread just a few games behind first place until we get Rami back.
I don’t know any of this. Neither do you. The difference between you and i is that i at least hope for our slumping players to turn around, while you seem all to gleeful to point out the chance that none of these good things WILL happen.
I guess i just hope YOU hope that you are wrong.
AndrewJStone - June 3, 2009
when did you decide
to hate Riot? I just want to keep my calendar updated.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
except
the numbers tell a different story than your eyes.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Well....
Lineup? Only regular member I would expect to significantly dial it up is Bradley. The guess hitting hack Soriano will go on a hot streak or two also. Beyond that? I don’t see it out of anybody else.
Bullpen? Primary set-up men on good ballclubs often have a short shelf life of dominance. That is Marmol to a tee. While still a fine pitcher the toll of the past few years has impacted him. That and the league has become accustomed to his stylings. Heilman and Gregg are what they are.
Rotation? Zambrano has been pitching to his level of historical performance for the most part. Harden is somebody with ace stuff that we hope to get 20 starts out of. He is achieiving on that expectation (at least we hope so).
BLou - June 3, 2009
Does Lou not believe in letting starting pitchers
go more than 7 innings?
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 3, 2009
not many
modern managers do.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I understand the pitch count thing, and taking out a pitcher when he's getting up
there in total number of pitches, but wow, Wells was only at 83 and pitching terrific.
I just don’t get why Lou took him out.
Cubs and Hawks fan - June 3, 2009
Per Boers and Bernstein...
Bradley to the 15-day DL. Not seeing this reported anywhere else, so take it for what it’s worth.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
It just keeps getting better and better with this team
BLou - June 3, 2009
Not surpising but still depressing.
daver - June 3, 2009
At least we can replace him on the roster instead of having just a dead spot like earlier.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
"instead of having just a dead spot like earlier."
what?
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
I'm assuming he means when Bradley was "day to day" but missed a significant
amount of time, and therefore had a thin bench
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
oh..ok..
the roster mismanagement can’t get any worse anyway.
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Yes, that's what I meant.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
Who's left to bring up?
daver - June 3, 2009
Jason Dubois
Crikey. I’m sorry, but the wheels have come off this thing. You can call me a ledge jumper and all manner of nasty names you want, but this here 2009 season is a certified clusterfuck.
BLou - June 3, 2009
And yet...
We’re only 4 games back.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
and *only 3 teams ahead of us
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
That we still have...
Plenty of games against this season. If it were September, I’d panic, but the way baseball works we could be in first place by this time next week.
CubsBullsBears - June 3, 2009
It ain't lookin' good right now - especially after last night.
But they still gotta play the games.
daver - June 3, 2009
at least Dubois
can lay the leather!!!
LMFAO…………..Blou……………ur right
plenz - June 3, 2009
I'm sorry
but your request for certification has been denied. Please visit us again in September for your updated stamp.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I'll wait
for verification.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Upset the apple cart
I don’t care that Soriano can’t bat anything but leadoff and all the other excuses that will be used to attack the following. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and right now this season is on very shaky ground. All the kool-aid drinkers can say “yeah, but we’re only 4 games out” all they want. But here is what I do starting tonight.
Bullpen….Marmol (new closer for remainder of season), Patton sent packing to I don’t care where
Lineup….
1. Kosuke – RF
2. Theriot – SS
3. Lee – 1st
4. Soriano – LF
5. Johnson – CF (playing every day)
6. Fontenot – 3rd
7. Blanco / Scales / I don’t care who – 2nd
8. Hill – Cat
Disabled list – Soto (whatever is wrong with his dietary willpower or shoulder or whatever needs to be addressed and addressed now)
BLou - June 3, 2009
Who takes Patton's place in the bullpen?
I could certainly live with that lineup.
daver - June 3, 2009
anyone to replace Patton is fine
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
Is anyone a lefty or a righty?
daver - June 3, 2009
HaHa that was funny about soto
Cubz24 - June 3, 2009
so it's just a different lineup with the same players except for Soto
Do you honestly think that they will start producing if they are simply rearranged?
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Options
There aren’t any other options than to rearrange the players is there?
The Cubs can’t/won’t go out and trade for a bat right now and your are seeing what our minor league system has to offer in Blanco, Scales, Hoff, etc.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
I agree that we don't have options
But I don’t agree that rearranging will help. How can a “Guess Hitting Hack” be productive suddenly in the cleanup spot?
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Soriano
Although not a popular opinion around here these days, I don’t think Sorian is “guess hitting hack.” He is a frustratlingly streaky player, however, when he is hot he is one of the premium hitters in the NL, if not in baseball.
My point was that if he is heating up, again IF, then he provides added protection for Lee, and hopefully would be given more RBI opps.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
even when he's been hot this season, he's been beyond awful with RISP
in fact, over his career he’s been pretty bad with RISP. One of the many reasons teams don’t bat him in the middle of the order
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Cleanup
I am not arguing that Soriano is a cleanup hitter. With the players the Lou has to put into the lineup at this time, and with how those players are hitting, Sorian IMHO makes the best case for hitting 4th.
For the record, I do not believe Soriano is a #4 hitter, nor should he be relied upon as one. There just aren’t too many other choices when looking at who is healthy and hitting well for the team right now.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
But
if your offense is already hamstrung, why move a player out of a position where he usually DOES hit, and put him in a position where he’s failed early and often?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Moving Soriano
I found BLou’s idea of shaking up the lineup intriguing as a way of trying to add spark to an offense that has been, save for two or three games, in a rut as of late. My arguments for Lou using such a lineup are above.
I agree that moving Soriano down in the lineup isn’t a good idea. I do think that something, such as rearranginy the lineup, might not be such a bad thought at this time to try get a spark going offensivley.
There are obvious reason for and against experiementing with the lineup.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
Lineup
I agree with your lineup, especially with Rami being out. If last night was any indication that Soriano is starting to get hot this lineup would give the Cubs the best chance to score runs.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
There is no choice but to place Soriano in a run production spot in the lineup
Ramirez is out. Bradley is out. Soto sucks. Fontenot sucks. Soriano MUST be moved to the middle of the lineup.
Will this new lineup cure things? Well it still shapes up as insanely weak for a $136 million ballclub.
BLou - June 3, 2009
Of course it looks weak for a $136 million ballclub...
we have over $30 million of it on the DL. Sheesh. What do you expect?
We’re playing with a $100 million payroll right now – not a $136 million payroll.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
one could argue that looks weak for a $100 Million dollar payroll
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
I'd say it looks about right for a $100 million payroll
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
So this is being added to the excuse making machine?!?
Wow. I snappy excuse for nearly everything wrong with this club.
BLou - June 3, 2009
sometimes, it's just a reason
do you dispute that a ton of our payroll is currently on the DL?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
It's reality, not an excuse...
sorry you can’t accept reality.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Agreed on the placement of Soriano.
With Fukudome the hottest hitter on the team right now, it makes sense to hit him leadoff. Theriot is a good contact hitter, so you are essentially setting the table for Lee, who hit well in May, and Soriano, who may be heating up.
I also agree that this lineup might not cure things, but now would be the time to experiement with a lineup change and not sit around and hope for something to magically happen.
Tangled Up In Blue - June 3, 2009
Bradley sucks too.
Worst Free Agent aquisition in Cubs history
Itchy - June 3, 2009
Mel Rojas would like a word with you
As would Todd Hundley. And Candy Maldonado.
Worst ever? Not even close.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Dude, Candy just wan't given a chance!
I kid, I kid
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
At $30 million, Bradley is the worst.
They scuttled Rojas after one year. But I agree that he was a giant piece of crap!! He was Moises’ cousin too!
Itchy - June 3, 2009
fantasy baseball
is so much fun to play, but no so fun to watch.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
What in the world have you seen in Marmol
That indicates he should be the closer ? His control has been beyond bad. The number of pitches he is throwing per outing is just
ridiculous. I understand Gregg has been bad but I still think he makes a better closer if merely because he is not walking everyone.
Gregg made one BIG mistake last night. Marmol was just awful. If Marmol can show signs of being back to his filthy self , maybe but
not now.
Doggie Stalker - June 3, 2009
Because Jessica I want Marmol to step into the role he earned after last season and to be naturally insulated from over-used that goes to primary set-up men on good ballclubs
BLou - June 3, 2009
so completely ignore his performance from this season
but punish everyone else for the exact same?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
if he earned it last seaon
he’s un-earned it this season. Un-earned? Get it? GET IT???
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Surprisingly...
many NL closers are having good years. The AL closers have been blowing up but 6 NL closers have ERAs sub 2 and 10 out of the league’s 16 closers have ERA sub 3.5. Worst ERA – brad lidge, who was unhittable last season.
BeltwayCubsFan - June 3, 2009
I believe Lidge
Is having a terrible year so things do change FAST.
Doggie Stalker - June 3, 2009
Well since you moved Sori
then I am in favor of this lineup.
KaliCub - June 3, 2009
I like Ryan Theriot
The resident troll says contrary. But fact is Ryan Theriot is what he is. Expecting wondrous production beyond what he is providing aint’ going to happen.
BLou - June 3, 2009
Who is asking for Theriot to do more than he's doing?
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
I was informed earlier that I have flip-flopped on my opinion of Theriot
Which I have not of course. Theriot is a good ballplayer doing what he can do. He isn’t in store for better production. But apparently making these points means that I have somehow become a Theriot hater.
BLou - June 3, 2009
your own words
belie you. Scroll down.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I am.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
and to clarify this....the thing I'm asking him to do more of that he's not doing now is...
play 2nd base.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
So did I miss us acquiring Jimmy Rollins or Hanley Ramirez????
Who plays shortstop? I’d welcome Theriot as everyday 2nd baseman in a heartbeat, but fact is Jimmy Hendry hasn’t left us with a whole lot of options at shortstop now has he.
BLou - June 3, 2009
Blanco.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
lol
BLou - June 3, 2009
Makes more sense than Scales/Blanco at 2B...
Blanco is a better defensive player than Theriot. And since we are stuck with Blanco or Scales in the lineup regardless until Ramirez comes back, we might as well use the best defensive alignment possible, right?
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
He appears to be good defensively...
…but I’m really not sure he’s an everyday player.
daver - June 3, 2009
I'm actually sure he's not
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
That's kind of irrelevant right now...
as we are stuck without an everyday player regardless until Ramirez returns.
SouthernCub - June 3, 2009
Actually, come to think of it...
…treading water with Fontenot at 3B, Blanco at SS and Theriot at 2B doesn’t sound half-bad. OK, SWL, you win – this time.
daver - June 3, 2009
Victory Dance!
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Exactly.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Qwik, whuts Lwou's twitter pwage?
daver - June 3, 2009
can't find out
without trying it.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Well, per Gordo, our wish is almost granted, but not quite.
On a “real world” note, I think moving Theriot to SS would appear to be a demotion and I don’t think Lou would do that.
daver - June 3, 2009
it would also be quite "rational"...
which is also out of character for Lou in 2009.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
you mean 2nd, right?
I don’t foresee it either. But at least it gives Blanco playing time.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Oh, yeah, 2B.
daver - June 3, 2009
I'm just trying to figure out when you gave up on him.
Fontenot and Theriot were never really considered legitimate prospects. Rather they are both guys who broke into the majors late and who can best be classified as over-achievers who capitalized on opportunity. Fontenot and Theriot were never in the plans of the Cubs until each forced the issue. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/5/5/865591/chris-carpenter-should-have-been#15296236)
Ryan Theriot is a major asset on the Cubs. Not just an asset, but yes a MAJOR asset. And I just love how the critics like to compare him to David Eckstein and Craig Counsell, two players who were major integral parts to two World Series Championship teams each. And the thing is Theriot is actually a better hitter than Eckstein or Counsell ever were at the zenith of their major league existence. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/23/850940/ryan-theriots-lack-of-skills#14652018)
Ryan Theriot has made me a believer He’s a darn good baseball player. Not only is he one of the smartest hitters in this lineup, but he knows how to play situational ball better than anybody outside of Aramis Ramirez. His defense at shortstop is also better than his critics suggest. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/23/850940/ryan-theriots-lack-of-skills#14651151)
Time to put an end to the Ryan Theriot bashing. Theriot continues to be a distinct asset on this ballclub and unselfishly performs for this team. He is the best Cub at executing in game situations. And his defense is decent enough. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/13/832947/reed-johnson-does-it-again-and#14088977)
I used to be cynical of Theriot. But not anymore. Theriot delivers in whatever role he is asked to fill and has become a catalyst for this offense and is arguably the best player on this roster at "executing" in game situations. He also is a decent shortstop. Not great by any stretch, but certainly makes the plays he needs to make. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/10/830110/theriot-fielding-tracking#14083491)
Theriot? Once again, Theriot is serving as a catalyst to this offense and consistently delivering in whatever role he has in the lineup. Cub fans need to be less cynical of Theriot. The guy plays the game the right way and contributes. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/9/827956/worried-about-the-cubs-offense#13913571)
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
You should make a fanpost ridiculing BLou again...
…that would show him.
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
You should just ask BLou out already and end this awkward tension.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Well, that's certainly way out of line, SWL....
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
But kinda funny
ya have to admit.
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
Sorry...
I don’t.
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
Bummer
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
Humor is for the lesser people Damon.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
I feel ashamed...
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
keep your head up my man....
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Post me some Erin Andrews pictures
Wait, what?
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
TWSS
Phew, I feel better now.
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
I've decided that I don't need to ridicule him
when he does it so ably to himself. Those are all his words, words of HUGE support and admiration for Riot.
What changed?
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Yes, and it's well known...
…that’s it’s your responsibility to prove him wrong every single time.
Congratulations. You’re the superior person.
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
And it's your responsibility to chastise him every time he proves him wrong.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
And it's my responsibility to comment about you chastising him.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
May the circle be unbroken.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
circles?
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
yeah..where is circles? paging circles...
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
I have a feeling
he’s not going to be able to join us in the threads anymore.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
darn..debbie downer! :-)
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
I was laughing
at circles and Badger. It wasn’t me who complained about him.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
I think he's saying he wishes circles would be there
I can’t be circles’ archenemy tonight, though — I’m going to a birthday party for my nephew.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
ah, gotcha
Yeah I’ll be late again tonight for the game.
sue369 - June 3, 2009
that's right!
the name is OVALS.
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
Yeah, from LA.
A Dodger fan on a mission — to see Janie whatever name I made up’s bra at the big 8th grade dance.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Well, at least I didn't use a homosexual reference...
Jeez, this place is unbelievable sometimes.
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
Congratulations. You’re the superior person.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
It appears so....
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
..when you have to resort to that...
carmen_fanzone - June 3, 2009
Resort? That was my first comment to you in this tread.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
lol
if I did it every single time, I’d no time for work at all.
I’m pretty comfortable with my reactions at this point. But thanks for being concerned!
drewishdrewid - June 3, 2009
I love lamp
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Lisa Lampanelli?
Yeah, she’s pretty funny.
daver - June 3, 2009
I was just trying out a random statement like I've seen others do today
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
Bradley
What’s up with him? Out tonight, I’m sure. I haven’t heard anything official though.
kanderber - June 3, 2009
He is lame and terrible.
Itchy - June 3, 2009
...
…
kanderber - June 3, 2009
Ok, we get it.
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Milton Bradley was a terrible signing
There, I have reversed course and admit it. That doesn’t mean I wish we signed Adam Dunn because he actually makes Micah Hoffpauir look like Willie McGee in the outfield.
BLou - June 3, 2009
You act like he makes 162 errors a year, whatever.
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
Yabbut...
…. he could have hit 50 HR this year as a Cub, and drawn over 100 walks, putting himself on base for others to drive in. The added run value would have made up for the bad defense.
Dunn’s lifetime numbers in Wrigley Field: .286/.419/.664 with 23 homers in 217 AB (267 PA) — 60 games. It’s not a stretch to think he could have hit 30 homers at Wrigley alone this year as a Cub.
Al Yellon - June 3, 2009
so who then?
You admit Bradley was a terrible signing, you say you don’t want Dunn.
So who?
WanderingWanderer - June 3, 2009
50 games into a 3 year contract is clearly the time to call it a failure
Cut him now
Wreckard - June 3, 2009
Yup
It’s pretty moot at this point. But I was really pulling for Dunn this past offseason.
WittyUserName - June 3, 2009
Pretty far out there, but...
I guess if the Cubs somehow dump some payroll, the Nationals might not feel like paying Dunn a lot of cash for a 100 loss team.
dr stabbingworth - June 3, 2009
Last one out
get the lights please?
DamonBerryhillsMitt - June 3, 2009
ok...:-)
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
last
daver - June 3, 2009
laster ;-)
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
lastest?
santoswoodenlegs - June 3, 2009
darn, it's dark in here..
cubsnlinux - June 3, 2009
Don't you have the flashlight?
sue369 - June 3, 2009
where did everybody go?
Shanghai Badger - June 3, 2009
Hello!?!
sue369 - June 4, 2009
I'm trying to sleep, you know.
drewishdrewid - June 4, 2009
Not any more. GET UP!!!!!!
sue369 - June 4, 2009
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