The headline isn't intended to be snarky -- it happens to be exactly what Carlos Zambrano said about himself:
"My problem is I've been lazy," a contrite Zambrano said. "There are things in life you don't like to do, but you have to do them. I don't like abs [abdominal muscle workouts], but I have to do them. I have to start doing them every day and be serious about it."
Doctors are convinced stronger abdominal muscles will ease the pain on back discs, one of which is bulging and has caused Zambrano pain on and off for a few years.
"I've got to be honest with me and with you [media] guys and the fans. I'm 28 years old, I'm not 16 anymore," Zambrano said. "I'm a big guy and I work hard every day, [but] one of the things I don't like to do is my abs, my core work. If I do abs every day and keep doing my job and be serious about my abs, I'll be OK."
It's a fact of life -- each one of us, whether professional athlete or not, has to work harder as we get older to stay in good health and physical condition. At 28, Z should still have several years of top form left, but he's right; he has to work harder and do what the doctors tell him to do in order to keep the back problems from recurring. I hope he does exactly that, because the Cubs need him to be in top form not only for any playoff chances this year, but for at least the next four years (the three remaining on his deal plus a 2013 option year). With 103 career wins, Z ranks 21st on the Cubs' all-time list; he'll likely finish 2009 fifth on the Cubs' all-time K list. It's possible he could wind up as the leader in both categories and rank high on many other team pitching lists. Oh... and help lead the Cubs to a World Series, too.
Other morning notes as we wait for a late-night (Chicago time) start in San Diego tonight:
That ought to keep you all going till this evening.
0 recs | 471 comments
I watched the Z interview............
……….on the WGN pre-game. As the article says, he simply doesn’t enjoy working the abs.
He’s a paid professional athlete, and if he KNOWS the core work will keep his back healthy, why the hell is he not doing it?
You never know what’s going to come out of this guy’s mouth. No filter whatsoever.
tville - August 17, 2009
Like he said...
… because he’s been lazy. I give Z credit for honesty, at least. Let’s see if he now does what he says he will. If so, we’re in for a good run from him.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
He said he understood he needs to do abs work
But then he said batting practice won’t hurt his back. He doesn’t understand (and by now he should have been told …although i think he was but just didn’t listen) that abs, back, obliques, theyre all connected and if one isn’t strong the other gets strained. Batting is a big strain on your core and your back…he said he got that one thing affects the other later on but doesn’t know batting will affect his back if worked hard enough. sigh.
What a mess i know to read, hell i’m finishing a physical therapy degree and reading that makes little sense. The point is Z gets it a little but doesn’t understand his core or rehabbing completely. He’s being paid a ton of money and should be monitored more, it’s ridiculous they seem afraid to make sure he’s working on his back after having problems with it last year. He’s a big kid…and its very irritating watching him have new problems because he won’t follow a training or rehab regimen, its time to lay down the law with him, it’s the clubs money he’s wasting not just his.
Sandberg's evil twin - August 17, 2009
I really don't think
that based on a quote from a newspaper article, that you’re really in a position to suggest what Z does or doesn’t know about core training.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
I also haven't heard all the talk
about Dempster climbing mountains like he did last year when he was making to conversion back to SP. Did he not do anything this year? I know he had some family issues but he’s also had health issues.
tony412 - August 17, 2009
Dempster's only "health issue"...
… was the broken toe. Otherwise he did not miss a start.
I believe Dempster did do the mountain workouts during spring training this year.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
"No filter whatsoever"
That’s pretty funny. Makes me wish I was the catcher if there was ever a mound conversation between Carlos and Ozzie…
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
Y'know, it would almost be worth trading him to the White Sox just to see that.
daver - August 17, 2009
It would be a little like Ragnarök
eths - August 17, 2009
Or a 1990-era Lou
Worf - August 17, 2009
Why doesn't he do it?
Because the pay is the same. No matter whether he’s working hard or not at all, the pay is the same. It’s the same reason why Soriano doesn’t run the bases hard, consistenly walks to and from his position or the batter’s box and routinely gives lip service to playing the OF. As long as it’s tolerated in the form of guaranteed contracts, that is what you’re going to see with regularity.
I’m not ripping Zambrano in the least. He’s one of the few guys on the team that is actually a full-fledged baseball player and plays the game hard. If he is admitting that his workout habits sometimes can use improvement, fine by me.
krummy12 - August 17, 2009
Trips to the DL............
………..cost the team, and he can’t “play the game hard” from the bench.
tville - August 17, 2009
Groan!
But on the other hand, I do admire the big Z being honest about his “failure.” If this is indicative of the general mood within the team and allthe players are being similarly self critical about their weaknesses and how to deal with them, then this bodes well.
eths - August 17, 2009
We all know Z isn't lazy
he plays the game with passion and always gives 100% effort.
But this is where the average fan can bitch about a pro athlete making millions of dollars but missing time for an injury that could have easily been prevented. I still think the Cubs will make the playoffs, but what happens if they miss the Wild Card by one game? Coming off a 97 win season and two straight division titles, it’s almost unacceptable.
DKT - August 17, 2009
If they do miss by one game...
… I don’t think you can specifically blame Carlos Zambrano.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Of course not
It’s a combination of a lot of things. Like I said, I think they’ll finish strong and make the playoffs. But missing your horse on the mound certainly doesn’t help.
DKT - August 17, 2009
Let me say this
Overall, I’ve been very happy with the starting pitching. Most of the Cubs struggles have been on the offensive side of the ball. Ramirez on the DL, Soto hurt and underperforming, Soriano having a down year, the list goes on and on…
DKT - August 17, 2009
If they miss by one game.
I blame Lou Piniella. I’ve seen bad calls to the bullpen blow enough games to warrant it.
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
There is plenty of blame to share
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Well, if we're playing the blame game...
then I blame Canada.
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
Blaming Canada
is never wrong.
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
It's them flappy heads and beady eyes.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
If they miss by one game
You can blame every person on the team.
Because each player at one point or another had one bad at bat or one error or pitched poorly that could have avoided a loss. It’s frustrating but it’s a teams effort.
ak123 - August 17, 2009
how can u say that
when Z just came out and said hes lazy, it doesnt matter that he gives 100% or plays with passion during a game, all athletes are supposed to do that, its what the athletes do before and after the games, and it seems like Z isnt doing all of the extra work and now he finds himself on the DL becuase of that.
Aramis Ramirez - August 17, 2009
I agree with you
Fluke injury is one thing, but I think Z’s back problems could have easily been prevented…
DKT - August 17, 2009
A lot of things in life can be prevented, but not all
In Z’s case, he’s learning the hard way that he has to do something he doesn’t like to be able to keep doing what he enjoys. Good for him. He’s admitted the problem and the most important part is addressing the problem. He’s not going to eliminate 100% of his back problems, but if he can significantly reduce his back problems by working his abs, he needs to do it.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
He didn't work on his back until he couldn't play because of it.
He says now he doesn’t think batting practice hitting lots of balls out of the park will hurt his back so he doesn’t understand all of his core yet either. He needs closer monitoring, waiting a week before finding out if he’s doing what he says he will obviously isn’t working. I like the guy, he’s got a big heart but he’s a kid underneath and with all the money he’s being paid to be a pitcher for us comes responsibility. Someone , a trainer or otherwise, needs to make sure he’s getting the work in and following the program because he’s just not.
Sandberg's evil twin - August 17, 2009
Wouldn't it be his trainers fault for not holding him to it?
GoCubbies34 - August 17, 2009
Like the old saying goes
You can bring a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
All I can say is
I have back problems also, and I can prevent them… It’s a matter of finding the motivation and time to do so. Sometimes I am unable to so I have to deal with the consequenses. I don’t fault Carlos for his honesty as I can understand where he is coming from.
tootle - August 17, 2009
Passion and
exercising are two different things. John Kruk has and did have a lot of passion for the game, however is exercising routine was non-exsitent. I don’t get this guys, get paid a ton of coin and you would figure they would like to continue to make money, so stay or get in shape.
I love “Z”, but his act can wear thin. Honesty great, not getting the extra work in, not so.
Grockcubs - August 17, 2009
Preaching to choir...
Don’t play Miles!!! Blanco needs to be in there playing some ball. Also, somewhat OT- I have added Randy Hundley’s Cubs Fantasy camp to my bucket list… Luckily I stuck with the rain delay long enough to see that special about it. I haven’t played actual baseball in 14 years but I have GOT to go do that.
Fonzie2178 - August 17, 2009
I started saving my pennies
so I can go there for my mid-life crisis. I can only hope it’s still around.
tony412 - August 17, 2009
Blanco is still on the DL, unfortunately.
The only way to get him back right now would be to release Miles, which, unfortunately, the Cubs don’t seem interested in doing.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
My sources (chilango2) tell me...
…Blanco is eligible to return from the DL on Tuesday. Dare we hope the Cubs give Miles one last start at SS tonight and, assuming he blows as usual, release him to bring up Andy White for Tuesday’s game?
daver - August 17, 2009
Eligible, yes.
I’m with you. I would have released Miles weeks ago. But the Cubs won’t do it, probably because they won’t eat next year’s contract.
I suspect we won’t see Blanco till September 1.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Bummer
I really like Blanco.
Blue W - August 17, 2009
I do too.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
More pride than anything
I personally think they will release Miles in the offseason, but they haven’t released him this season because it would be admitting they were wrong for dealing Mark DeRosa and signing Miles to replace him.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
I don't think pride has anything to do with it
I’m sure they want to give Miles every opportunity possible. I’m not sure I agree with that, but attributing “pride” to the rationale is misguided, I think.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 17, 2009
Gosh, it seems like
Blanco has been on the DL for decades!! I can’t wait to get him back.
Fonzie2178 - August 17, 2009
I agree, Daver, and hopefully JH does as well
Blanco deserves to be on this team over Miles, and it’s not his fault that Miles was given a contract that JH doesn’t want to eat. I say swallow your pride, cut your losses, and put the best team you can on the field and in the dugout.
ambrosiadreams - August 17, 2009
I really wish
that would happen.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
The only place I hope to see Aaron Miles tonight is the Cubs' dugout.
DO. NOT. WANT. HIM. TO. PLAY.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
i want to see him on a bus leaving chicago
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
Perhaps you could douse him in maple syrup.
daver - August 17, 2009
Didn't bring any with me.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
I thought you Vermont folks had a flask of the stuff on you at all times.
daver - August 17, 2009
No, we don't.
Far be it for me to criticize you, but BLou has been saying many of the same things to me over the past few weeks.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
he's clearly kidding
Illicat - August 17, 2009
Yeah, I know.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Just jokin' around.
daver - August 17, 2009
I'll send $$ to you thru paypal so you can go and buy maple syrup
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I think that's why
daver is saying this to you. He is mocking BLou.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
haha!
LOL
Nicely played!
HAve you heard of the “Ben and Jerry Cocktail”? Three ounces Maple Syrup and one ounce schnapps. Chug quickly after adjusting your Birkenstocks.
(made that up)
The E-Man - August 17, 2009
Why?
I think it will be enjoyable to see which part of his game is worse. The woeful hitting skills he shows with regularity. The little league arm that he masquerades as major-league caliber. Or the clumsy baserunning skills he gets to show off far too less frequently than you’d like to see. If I had a horse in the race, I’d say it’s a dead heat.
krummy12 - August 17, 2009
You should do
a poll on those skills. I have to admit watching him run is hilarious.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
chugachugchug!
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Starting Aaron Miles at any position
is like playing the game with 24, not 27, outs.
JFCubFan - August 17, 2009
I hate to tell
you this but he more then likely will be in the lineup. Lou said yesterday that Theriot will not play tonight because of his flu and that Miles will play at SS.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Suddenly...
I’m not so bummed that I had to give my tickets to my father-in-law for tonight’s game.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
Good decision.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Now watch them put another 17 up tonight....
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
I won't get to see
it if they do. Damn WCIU!
sue369 - August 17, 2009
But you can listen to the Pat and Ron comedy show!
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
I like Pat and Ron.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Me too.
Blue W - August 17, 2009
So do I, they crack me up.
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
Is Ron going on this trip?
Allie - August 17, 2009
I don't know.
I’ll find out tonight I guess. :-(
sue369 - August 17, 2009
I've noticed he's been traveling less
Just as long as it’s not Judd filling in, I’ll be ok.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I'm guessing probably not...
… I don’t think Ron takes West Coast trips any more.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
I think he's
cut back on his traveling with the team this season. I can’t say I blame him with his health issues.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
or to NY
cozmotaylor123 - August 17, 2009
You're on your own, Z.
I’ve stuck up for Carlos repeatedly, but even I can’t really come up with a decent explanation or excuse for a professional athlete failing to stay in “game” shape – which includes doing preventative exercises to avoid exacerbating pre-existing injuries. The only thing I will give Big Z credit for is honesty – oh, and being a damn good pitcher throughout his career.
Go ahead, Z Bashers. Lay into him. Get it out of your system. I assume we all can agree that we’d like to see Carlos come back strong for the last month or so of the season.
daver - August 17, 2009
Perhaps this lends more credence...........
……….to all the other things the so-called bashers have stated previously?
tville - August 17, 2009
Not really.
Because, if I’m not mistaken, much of the case against Carlos Zambrano is built on his in-game freakouts. I maintain that, relatively speaking, those are few in number and, even if Carlos eliminated them, he probably wouldn’t transform himself into a markedly better pitcher. I’d also maintain that those incidents come from competitiveness and passion – two things that drive Carlos to be the very good pitcher that he is.
This is simply a case of off-the-field laziness. It’s regrettable and, to a certain extent, embarassing, but let’s not make too much of it. (Yeah, right.) Again, Carlos Zambrano is still a very good pitcher who can help the Cubs compete and even succeed in the 2009 divisional and wild card races.
daver - August 17, 2009
Agreed. His passion and fire on the mound are not
related to how many repetitions of crunches, sit ups or planks he performs in the off season.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
his lack of maturity is.
Illicat - August 17, 2009
I agree on both counts
and I think the same applies to Geo when it comes to off the field stuff.
tony412 - August 17, 2009
Most of the factoids cited by the bashers have been
fairly accurate. The calls to DFA or trade him for peanuts are what’s crazy.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
he could have used the “i smoked weed” excuse
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
♪♫ Because I got high, because I got high, because I got high ♪♫
daver - August 17, 2009
I was goin to do situps, but then i got high
xene - August 17, 2009
Not a Z basher just a Cubs fan.
He’s been a great player for the Cubs but also a frustrating player. The frustration comes from what I would characterize as a lack of maturity or professional approach. I don’t wish bad things on Zambrano—geeze, he’s just another player that I don’t know. But why would I defend stuff that he does (or doesn’t do) that I disagree with?
The back injury now is likely the only way that a guy like Zambrano makes the changes, so there is a positive but the positive is contingent on Zambrano’s response to adversity. It’s been a frustrating season for the Cubs, so I hope Zambrano gets healthy, stays healthy and pitches well. The Cubs need him.
DudeVf11 - August 17, 2009
Cue Worf in 3, 2, 1...
cubswynn - August 17, 2009
Tough time for the Cards to rip off a winning streak, but the only
positive I can find is the rainout banks a game to be played with the Pirates. If it comes down to squeezing in every game in, that’s the lineup I want the Cubs to face at the very end.
Sometime over the last two weeks I stated I thought 5 back at mid August was put a fork in it done. Cubs and Cards face nearly identical opponents to the end of August and the Cubs have (what I think are) 35 of 47 games versus sub .500 teams. It’s a nail biter.
As for Carlos, he’s admitting what we’ve all known. From what you read, see, and hear, I perceive he’s a very proud guy and wants to keep being considered elite. I’m hoping him admitting it pairs with his doing the work needed to remain a solid starter.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
The organization has known...
…Zambrano’s preperation has not been the best going back several years and I don’t know how much they have encouraged him to change his ways. It’s a good sign he has come out and said what he did, but still dissappointing he let things slide for this long.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
I wonder if someone finally read him the riot act.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Hmm, I thought I saw Jack Lalanne over by the players parking lot the other day...
Maybe Z should put this picture up on his locker
and Cubs should put a Jack Lalanne’s Power Juicer in the dugout instead of the gatorade cooler. Then when Z goes 9-0 the rest of the season with a sub 2.00 ERA, vaults himself into Cy Young consideration and leads the Cubs into the post-season, he can tell everyone it’s because he did his crunches and went on the juice…
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
I was gonna say...
daver - August 17, 2009
Or the guy on the front page ads...
CubsBullsBears - August 17, 2009
got anything to back this up?
The organization has known…
…Zambrano’s preperation has not been the best going back several years
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
Yes...
…but I can’t reveal what that is, because that would be a very bad thing for me to do.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
so if they
knew this and it was a problem why did they shell out a huge deal to the guy? Does he somehow cake walk into good season’s every year?
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
Probably....
…because of his raw talent, and the hope that his fitness work ethic would improve.
I can also recall several quotes from Hendry over the years discussing how much of a horse Z was. Maybe he thought he was somone who wouldn’t be hurt as much from a lack of preperation.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
you know what I take away from it?
The guy apparently has been pitching with a bulging disc in his back for a couple of years now. And he still has managed to turn out very productive season (including this one).
We honestly have no idea if ab work is the magic bullet for his back but I’m glad he is going to give it a shot and see if it can help him.
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
+1
Orval Overall - August 17, 2009
but...but...
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
If he did any type of core training to work on his abs, then his back will feel better
It isn’t a “magic bullet”, it’s a scientific physiologiocal fact, unless his back is FUBAR’d.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
And he would only need to do an hour a day
Pilates, anything really.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
i don't doubt it will help
but pitching with a bulging disc is pitching with a bulging disc whether you have 8 minute abs or not. All I’m saying is we dont know that if Zambrano had better abs if his back would act up or not. Apparently everyone here is now a core or back specialist but none of us know how Zambrano’s back feels and none of us pitch in the bigs. I’m sure the stresses he puts on his back are much greater than any personal anecdote we posses.
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
No, no one here is a specialist.
However, Z himself says if he works on his abs, it will help his back. That’s good enough for me.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
me too
I hope it helps.
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
It's already been addressed,
but working on your core muscles, your abs, will relieve pressure on your lower back, upper back, and neck. It will reduce stress on your spine, improve posture, etc. These dominos will fall into his legs improving, reduction in weight, which would in turn improve the health of his knees. I’m not an expert, but I did do core training for almost two years. In those two years, I know my back had never felt better (no longer needed to go to the chiro), I lost a lot of weight, I had an improved attitude, etc. It’s always interesting to me that more trainers don’t employ core training techniques, or make it a focus of a player’s workout.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
FWIW, I believe Kosuke did a lot of core training this past off-season.
daver - August 17, 2009
He got a lot of that last season too with his helicopter spins
He-yo!
Ugh…
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Question (not intended as a snide comment)
You mentioned “you did do core training” – did you stop, and if so, why? Did your back, weight or attitude regress?
(Maybe that sheds some light onto Z’s situation.)
ChipSet - August 17, 2009
No
I, uh, how should I put this…I met the girl I would later marry almost a month ago and I just got comfortable. For awhile, I could drink or eat anything, without working out, and I wouldn’t gain. Being comfortable turned into being lazy, and now I don’t work out and I’ve started to put weight back on, and I’m back to the chiropractor. I’ll get back to it, probably tomorrow actually.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Core muscles are critical...
…for lower back stability, and when that is addressed, the vast amount of pain from bulging discs goes away.
Furthermore, most physically active people (especially prof athletes) are performing everyday with bulging discs to some degree. How well your body accomodates the bulge, is very much dependent on your core strength.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
A very valid point.
Given the number of starts/innings Z has pitched in his major league career, it’s really not that surprising he’s started running into DL-worthy injuries. And this might be the case even if he was a workout fiend.
daver - August 17, 2009
heh
good call. :D
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Corresponding roster move when Lilly is activated?
Berg to be sent down would be my guess, any other ideas?
ambrosiadreams - August 17, 2009
That would be mine, too.
Bill Potter - August 17, 2009
Not Caridad?
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
I don't know, Al
Caridad threw very well last time out, and Lou seemed pretty pleased with him.
ambrosiadreams - August 17, 2009
Berg also threw a couple of good innings in his only outing.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
What is the future projection for these guys?
Are either of them thought of as starter material? If so, that’s the one that should go down.
Worf - August 17, 2009
I would think Carridad would stay
in case Lilly’s outing needed to be shortened tonight due to ineffectiveness/injury recurrence.
Bill Potter - August 17, 2009
Yes, Berg would likely be, uh, submerged.
daver - August 17, 2009
(n)ice one, daver
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
I too will give him credit for his honesty
But at some point, it’s all just words. When he shows that he’s gotten it, I’ll believe it.
I also find this to be part of the larger pattern with Z. He had to be reminded to hydrate properly too and not subsist on Red Bull and coffee before games.
And although he disputes that his batting practice aggravates his back, there are reports (linked in that monster thread several days ago) the some on the Cubs think it does. At the least, it’s another questionable practice.
I said this yesterday. At the risk of reigniting the Holy War, this is why stats about past performance aren’t useful when it comes to projecting Z’s future and what his future with the organization should be.
No one disputes that he has been a good-to-great pitcher. The fact that he has done it — apparently — without taking proper care of his body is even more astounding.
However, he is on his second DL stint this year. He’s had as many this year as he had his entire career.
Whether that will be the aberration that finally wakes him up or the beginning of a trend remains to be seen.
Worf - August 17, 2009
A perhaps remarkably reasonable response.
To be honest, when I heard Z’s quotes on this issue yesterday, I expected to find about three Z-Bashing Fanposts when I logged on this morning.
Again, my only comment really is that, as of this moment in time, Carlos Zambrano has thrown more than 1,500 innings at the major league level. So, even if he had stayed in tip-top shape, we could very well still be seeing him running into some injury issues. I definitely agree, however, that he needs to stay in better shape if he expects to maintain his skills and effectiveness as a pitcher.
daver - August 17, 2009
Agreed. He signed the contract and the team has to pay him.
It’s fair to still expect him to earn it and play to the level of the contract.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
My biggest beef is this
I don’t hear of these things with other pitchers. Maybe it is a perfect storm of a controversial player, a city with an aggressive media and 101 years of futility.
Maybe that accounts for some of it.
But I have never heard of a truly great pitcher refusing to take care of himself. If anything, you hear the opposite. Nolan Ryan’s workouts were famous. Clemens, chemically aided though he might have been, still put in the work.
Zambrano isn’t exactly dumb — no matter what I say when I truly vent — but he’s not going to get by on his wits like Maddux and Glavine did.
THIS is why I think the Cubs should listen to offers. I think Zambrano is going to break this team’s heart.
Worf - August 17, 2009
Babe Ruth? Rick Reuschel? David Wells?
daver - August 17, 2009
David Wells was the first guy that came to my mind
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
I think it's unfair to include Reuschel in that trio
Rick might’ve not had a classic athlete’s physique but he was an extremely durable workhorse during most of his career-he rarely missed a start, ate up innings and was such a good athete that he was frequently called on to pinch run late in games.
bluekoolaide - August 17, 2009
But was he in shape or just lucky?
I was just tryin’ to think of portly pitchers, really.
daver - August 17, 2009
Bartolo Colon?
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
Freddy Garcia
As for Freddy and Bartolo, both have had serious health issues after being dominant.
Z’s best current comparison is Sabathia.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Interestingly enough, it looks like...
…both Bartolo and Freddy will pitch in a White Sox uniform this season.
daver - August 17, 2009
No way do they both fit into a White Sox uniform
Not unless Big Klu is their tailor
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
kind of like
carlos zambrano…..
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
Mickey Lolich
Zeke - August 17, 2009
Thanks Zeke
I knew I could count on a fellow Tigers fan to mention the Mick. :-)
CaliCub - August 17, 2009
Any major leaguer that buys his own donut store after retiring from the game is OK in my book...
Zeke - August 17, 2009
Terry Forster
When he was with the Braves, David Letterman called Forster a “tub of goo” on NBC.
memphiscub - August 17, 2009
Not too surprising you don't hear any of the recent
greats being lazy, nor do the media focus on the fitness regimens of the truly mediocre.
I believe Z is a bit of an anomaly in this era. He has the stuff to be truly great and has been able to get by with what preperation he’s done in prior years. Most guys who skate in their workouts don’t make all star teams.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Ok guys, I like poking Worf as much as the next person (probably more) but he did say "truly great pitcher"
Of the ones mentioned so far, I can only consider Babe Ruth to be in the truly great category. CC Sabathia has potential to reach that category – time will tell. But the others… nah. Decent pitchers with flashes of brilliance here and there but not “truly great”.
ballhawk - August 17, 2009
Thanks, Hawk
I think the ones listed above fall into the “Good, but could have been better” category.
I certainly put David Wells there. Good as he was, I wonder what he would have been like 20 pounds lighter.
Mickey Lolich is a tough one, but I think we also have to consider eras. He pitched off a higher mound and had a bigger strike zone (one that included going inside without fear of suspension).
Babe Ruth isn’t worth mentioning for two reasons — he wasn’t fat as a young ballplayer and certainly not as a pitcher and he did a lot of his pitching in the dead ball era.
In today’s world, you need to be in as good a shape as the hitters.
Worf - August 17, 2009
This point is vital and not specific to Zambrano
This is the pitcher dilemma facing all GM’s. A pitcher with decent stuff is about to test the free agent market and the perception is that pitcher will fetch huge money. Current teams GM steps in and resigns the pitcher quickly for less than the pitcher and agent expect others will pay and tout the deal as “below market” but gives up more years and a NTC.
I’m weary of this formula. Those first two years are below market, but as the contract an pitcher age, too many teams are stuck win an overpaid shell of the former ace.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
He's only 28
He’s old enough to know to take care of himself and young enough to where he should be able to recover quickly if he does.
We’ll see.
I just don’t think it should be sacriledge to think about making him someone else’s problem.
Worf - August 17, 2009
My point was not to Zambrano.
Players are too often paid on prior performance and GM’s retain pitchers on prior performance because they can’t identify how to replicate those results with someone else. Skill and health declines don’t seem to be factored as heavily as they should and should be considered when a player is 28+ when offering a multi year contract.
All said, I believe Dempsters contract will hurt the team more over its duration than Z’s.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Wait, what pattern are you seeing here exactly?
You mean the pattern where he saw that something was a problem, addressed it, and it’s never been a problem since? Like the dehydration thing?
No, you’re grossly overestimating the variance here. It’s pretty irrelevant – some players are more prone to injuries due to conditioning / lack of conditioning than others. Look at Harden and Bradley – both are among the most vigorous trainers on the Cubs team, both to the point where it’s been speculated that their injury problems are due to over-training and becoming too muscular.
You can’t predict injuries with high certainty, but you can look at a player’s injury history and use that to assess what their risk is. Zambrano has consistently been one of the healthiest pitchers in baseball since he arrived.
That said, nothing Zambrano does will stop you from being Sanctimonious about him so I’m not sure why I’m bothering here.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Now, I had heard that "too muscular" thing about Bradley.
But Harden? Where did you hear that about Harden?
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Here's a link
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/16/SPGS6ISHRE1.DTL
It’s literally the opposite of the debate here. A’s fans were getting up in arms and saying how he needed to condition less and wasn’t thinking of the team.
Fans almost shouldn’t even get told about this stuff. It always leads to sanctimonious blowhards playing backseat trainer and trying to tell professional baseball players how to prepare for their jobs.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Hmm, SBNation broke the link
Let’s try it this way.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
That article specifically says he was NOT working out to get too muscular.
Plus, it was from 2006 — I suspect Harden’s workout regime has changed since he came to the Cubs.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Well, "too low body fat"
Too me that’s not all that different from “too muscular” but point taken.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Also, why are you giving Harden the benefit of the doubt here but not Bradley?
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Personally, I have questions about the A's medical/training staff.
They’ve had quite a few players with chronic injuries, including Harden, over the last few years.
Since Harden’s come to the Cubs, he’s been much more healthy as he ever was with the A’s. As I understand, the Cubs put him on a new off-season program similar to the program Dempster used in recent years. The A’s could never keep Harden healthy.
This all makes me really wonder if part of the problem with the A’s having so many injuries may be with their medical/training staff.
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
I'd also give credit to the Cubs training staff
But yeah, I think Harden expressed displeasure with the A’s staff at one point.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Point taken.
However, I have read THIS YEAR that Bradley’s musculature might have contributed to his early hamstring trouble. (Sorry, can’t find a link right now.)
Since Bradley has been healthy now for what — 3 months — maybe they have addressed that issue.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
You know what's funny,
in the offseason, the “analysts” told us the questions about Bradley were his health and temper. They said he always hit wherever he played.
The funny thing is it’s turned out to be the opposite. Bradley’s been healthier than vitually any prediction I heard from anyone in the offseason and he’s kept the outbursts to a minimim. But he hasn’t hit very well (until recently).
That’s the kind of game baseball is, you just never know what’s going to happen.
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
Aramis had the same issues, didn't he?
Where losing weight/changing his routines helped his calf problems go away?
Allie - August 17, 2009
Uh, oh Al. Pointing out that he's been healthy for 3 months is the Cubs "kiss of death..."
Zeke - August 17, 2009
Being a member of the 2009 Cubs
has been the kiss of death this season. Only the Mets have had crappier luck
berselius - August 17, 2009
Albeit significantly crappier
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Couldn't happen to a nicer franchise...
…unless they slid into the ocean. Then THAT would be better…
Zeke - August 17, 2009
I have no idea...
…what Harden’s routine is, but pitchers do need to be very careful in how the design and execute a weight lifting routine.
The shouldler is a very complex and vulnerable joint, and I was once told by a sports medicine doc – “the most destructive motion in all of prof sports is throwing a baseball and how it beats up the shoulder”.
IMO, some of the problems with pitching injuries stems from improper weight lifting programs. The most common problem is working on the major muscle groups around your chest, upper back and shoulder, while forgeting about the small synergistic muscles around your cuff. You create big imbalances, that eventually overwhelm the rotator cuff and cause tears.
Over the years, the strength training folks have figured this out, but you can’t supervise every player 12 months a year.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
No, he was TOLD something was a problem
with the dehydration. He had to be told.
And I consider Zambrano’s injury history to be spiraling into irrelevance. He has been on the DL as many times this year as he had been his entire career. I think he is trending badly as he ages.
I’m sure we can wring a few more good seasons out of Zambrano before he breaks down. And I’m sure we will have great performances from him in the next few years.
As for your little kicker, whatever.
Worf - August 17, 2009
Kinda off in the future question
Does anyone have any estimation as to who will be pitching on 9/2?
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Wells?
Maybe Dempster,
Possibly Lilly.
I would eliminate Harden since that is a day-game, Z would probably not line-up with that date either.
dtc0405 - August 17, 2009
So anyone really :)
That’s cool though…Last time I went Harden got shelled, but the Cubs came back from 0-7 to win in extra innings. Time I went before then was the Soto comeback game against the Brewers last September, which was also an extra innings game, so I’ll probably need to plan accordingly to make the train back home for this game.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
So, if you are near Chicago, is tonight's game on Channel 26 at 9 PM?
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
yes, WCIU, the U.
dtc0405 - August 17, 2009
Thanks.
I’m having a relative in Chicago DVR tonight’s game because I’ll be at it.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Let's hope tomorrow your signature reads:
‘I have been to six Cubs games in my lifetime. The Cubs’ record in those games: 6 wins, 0 losses.’
dtc0405 - August 17, 2009
It sure will be.
That has a nice sound to it.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
If so...
… you’ll have to attend every game from now till the end of the season.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
I'll try.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
If they lose, you may be cut off. :)
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Don't say that.
It’s “When they win tonight….”
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
They'll only lose if you don't do your job.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I just got back from a long walk in the area.
The only remarks I got about the Cubs while out were both pro-Cub.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Al, you're forgetting...
I’ll also have to attend every postseason game the Cubs play from now on.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Sounds like a plan.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Get me tickets if you can!
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
If I thought it would guarantee a WS win, I would.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Question:
Who else is going to the game tonight? I’ll be heading down to SD on the Coaster from Encinitas (a northern suburb of the city) at around 3 pm. Once there, I will probably be hanging out in Gaslamp before the game.
Let me know if you’re going.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Good question.
SWL, will you be in attendance tonight? Awesome seats like last year? A Rob Bowen is god T-Shirt?
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Besides SWL, the following BCB'ers are going to tonight's game:
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man
Happy2bacubsfan (I might have that wrong)
Vermont Cubs Fan
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
I will be disappointed if SWL didn't bring like 20 poster boards with him
with various Photoshopped works on them.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
I might make it down there tonight
If I can escape LA.
More likely I’ll just head to a few of the games in Chavez Ravine.
PacificCub - August 17, 2009
Snake Plissken, Is that you?
Blue W - August 17, 2009
Well played, sir.
I have it easier, though – LA isn’t an island… yet.
PacificCub - August 17, 2009
Snake Plissken?
I thought he was dead.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 17, 2009
I don't think I'll
get to see tonights game. Damn you WCIU!!!
sue369 - August 17, 2009
but then you'll miss Aaron Miles "playing" shortstop
That’s the silver lining in this.
Bill Potter - August 17, 2009
Yes there is
a bright side.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Those on Extra Innings
outside of Chicago will get the Padres telecast from Cox Cable/4. Very rare Padres home announcer-sighting on EI.
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - August 17, 2009
so who do you guys think will get hurt now that TRL is off the DL
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
Bradley?
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Anyone who gets in his way.
Blue W - August 17, 2009
+1
section229beer - August 17, 2009
actually I think irrespective of injuries, we will go full steam and win this division.
Lou will be the manager of the year.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
I assumed you were serious with the team winning the division, but
am looking for a sarcasm indicator with any thought Lou will be top 5, regardless of how the season ends, for manager of the year.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
No sarcasm there
Given all the injuries we had to deal with this year if somehow we were able to beat the birds for the division, then Lou should get Manager of the year.
He didn’t ask Soto to put on weight and smoke whatever he smoked. No one expected Ramirez to be out by this much and not having a proper backup for such situations is on Hendry. Lou didn’t mess up Marmol’s mechanics or psyche. Agreed that he shouldn’t have been adamant with Marmol in close games but I think Lou believes that given the quality of the rest of the bullpen, Marmol has to get it right. Lou doesn’t hit for Soriano though I agree that Soriano should have been moved out of the leadoff spot a long long time back. I think Hendry somehow all along was/is under the delusion that the Soriano he signed in 2007 was/is the same Soriano that had the 40-40-40 year with Washington. It took 2 long years for Hendry to realize that Soriano is not the same guy he envisioned him to be.
All managers make mistakes, but given the adversity, if the Cubs do win the division then Lou should get the manager of the year.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Dude, I like your chutzpah
But as a manager, he should’ve noted that Soto looked sloppy and talked to him about it. He should’ve had people working with Marmol. He should’ve had Marmol in some easier situations to build him back up and find his release point. He should’ve moved Fons a long time ago. He should have STOPPED PUTTING AARON MILES IN FOR ANYTHING.
Maybe he did these things and it just isn’t noticed, but I doubt some of it.
If they do win this division, it’s going to come from some great play on the field, but it’s also going to require a pretty healthy collapse by St. Louis and I’m nearly positive his managing is going to have nothing to do with that.
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
Oh, I get it now.
So, if they win the division then it’s because of the play on the field or because the birds play like crap and Lou would have absolutely nothing to revel in that. But if they don’t make it to the playoffs then Lou should have done blah, blah and blah. This is ridiculous.
I don’t put too much weight on Manager of the year or other similar trophies because in the end they contribute to only so many wins. I agree that it’s the players that ultimately perform on a given day. The pieces are actually put together by a GM and his team and they do so in *consultation with the Manager. So Aaaron freakin Miles is not on Lou. He was signed by Hendry and dumped on Lou. Ideally Miles should not start one big league game again in 2009 but given the injuries what can you do? We don’t have any superstars in our farm.
How do you know that he didn’t talk to Soto? So Soto is going to loose weight over night just by having a conversation with Lou? All the obese America will be standing in a line outside Lou’s office if this were true. It’s Rothschild’s job to work with Marmol. What the heck does Lou would have to do with this? Also I didn’t read anywhere about Lou telling Jim Hendry not to pickup anyone before the trade deadline to help out. We are getting screwed by the hanging ownership fiasco. To be fair, Hendry’ s hands are tied. I don’t think Hendry or anyone expected the ownership situation to linger this long.
Credit should be given where it is due.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Seriously?
With regards to your first paragraph—-yes, if they win the division it will be because of the play on the field, and because the Cardinals will stop winning with the frequency that they presently do. If they miss the playoffs by one or two games, there are a handful of games I can clearly and convincingly make the argument that Lou Piniella’s management choices cost the game.
Paragraph Two—I’m not a moron—I know how baseball teams are put together. As a manager, you put the pieces on the field. Aaron Miles can’t hit a building with a car. Why pinch hit him for anyone ever. I wouldn’t be surprised if a bullpen pitcher got a bloop single before Aaron Miles made contact.
Paragraph Three—Again, maybe he did talk to Soto. If he talked to Soto, and he’s still not putting in the extra effort to slim down and get back to the shape he was in, then it’s on both him and Soto. Set some accountability for these guys. We’re not really getting screwed by the hanging ownership fiasco—we’re getting screwed by a combination of previously signed contracts, injuries, and bad management decisions (both on the field, and in the front office.)
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
Yes, seriously :-)
Any I can point out a handful of games wherein the players played like crap that might cost us the division too. I can point out more than a handful of games where Fontenot had to play 3rd because we didn’t have anyone credible to play 3rd and which might have affected Fontenot’s hitting for all we now. Given DHs in the form of Fox and Hoffpauir, who should Lou play at 3rd for all the time that ARam went down?
I did not imply anywhere that you are a moron. But who does Lou have to Pinch Hit? Managers don’t burn bullpens for pinch hitting even though the theory that they would be better than Miles sounds very good. For heavens sakes we did not have a credible backup catcher to split time with Hill. Jake Fox was our backup catcher and that speaks volumes about the roster put together by Hendry.
How do you know that Soto didn’t put extra effort to slim down during the season. It’s hard to loose weight in a moment during the season. What the heck is wrong with our pitching and bullpen all of a sudden after the break? I am all for setting accountability and I am just saying that accountability should be set for Hendry, Rothschild, Zell (for not selling the darn team), more importantly the players and Lou.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
its a lot easier to gain weight, though
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
Good point
I can vouch for that.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
Be easier if High Life
just had more nutrients. Then I could skip the food.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Try the Miller Chill. 100 calories and just a hint of lime. Pretty good stuff...
Especially with Nachos, chips and salsa…
Yum.
Zeke - August 17, 2009
I love Miller Chill.
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Only in America would fewer calories be the response to more nutrients. :)
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Just giving you another Miller brand option...
I love High Life too…
Zeke - August 17, 2009
and the nutrients come from the food you have WITH the beer...
Zeke - August 17, 2009
Guiness
It’s a meal in a can!
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I have subsisted for weeks in the winter on nothing but
a Guiness for dinner.
I just don’t like the flavor in the warmer months.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
See, that's when you need to go somewhere air conditioned
Lovely day for a Guiness.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I thought the old story
for catchers is that they lose weight through the season….
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - August 17, 2009
I see your points. Just stating guys don'
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Wha... Not sure how that happened.
Was saying managers aren’t considered as Manager of the Year if their team grossly underperforms throughout the season compared to expectations and squeeks into the playoffs. MOL awards go to managers to get the most from the team on paper to start the season.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Agreed
My whole argument was that this year our team on paper on opening day has no resemblance to the team on the field. Soto, Dempster, Lilly, Ramirez who we all thought were going to be reasonably healthy were all down all year.
I do agree that no matter who is playing on a given day in the big leagues every team has to play solid fundamental baseball. The Cubs though on the other hand have committed so many blunders. But, it is very hard to mesh/gel together as a team when someone or the other is going down every other day. Fontenot didn’t reach his expectations so we saw Miles, Baker and Blanco at 2B. It’s hard to get good sync between a SS and 2B when one of the positions is a musical chair. That was just one example.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
"Soto, Dempster, Lilly, Ramirez who we all thought were going to be reasonably healthy were all down all year"
To clarify, I meant that combination was down all year or at least it seems like. It has been rare for us to have all the players available together on any given day in the season so far.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
You're kidding, right?
There are far more qualified candidates for NL Manager of the Year. Alfonso Soriano hasn’t exactly been the 40-40 man he was with Washington, but he has been far from a bust of a signing. He was an important piece of the 2007 and 2008 Cubs. You can’t criticize Hendry for signing Soriano, but the length of the contract is open for criticism. You can criticize Lou for not forcing Soriano out of the leadoff spot until it was absolutely necessary.
You can criticize Jim Hendry for signing Aaron Miles for two years, essentially forcing Mark DeRosa out the door with a trade. Could he have anticipated that DeRosa would end up with the Cards during the season? No, but it looks especially bad for him that this looks like a repeat of the Brock for Broglio trade, only with Cleveland serving as a stop along the way. For that reason alone, I think he deserves to get canned. He refuses to release Aaron Miles out of pride, thus preventing a more capable player (Blanco) from being called up as a backup infielder.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Brock for Broglio?
Way over the top. Even I, as a DeRosa fan, wouldn’t go that far.
Further, it may appear that releasing Miles may be a matter of “pride”, when it may simply be that he does not have approval to eat Miles’ 2010 contract. You can rightly criticize Hendry for giving that two-year deal in the first place, but there may be factors beyond his control for an outright release — and believe me, I wish he would just release Miles.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
A bit over the top
Brock for Broglio was the closest comparison I could get to describe the situation. I think it would sting even more if the Cardinals won the World Series this year. There may be factors that keep Miles from getting released, but he’ll probably ride the bench once September call ups happen. Miles hurts this team more than he helps it and I have to think he’s one of the primary reasons why this team is five games back in the division.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Not really.
I agree, Miles doesn’t help the team.
But to say the 25th guy on the roster is a “primary” reason the Cubs are five games back is silly. There’s no way this man has cost the Cubs five games.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Al
…would you agree, however, that managerial decisions have cost 5 games this season?
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
I don't
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Yeah, I noticed.
However, that’s the magic of opinions!
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
Managerial decisions have also won 60 games
While I think Lou needs to go, I don’t think many managers would find success with this bullpen.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
I'm not saying that there's a magic formula
of putting the bad bullpen guys together that’s going to magically make them good, but I’m saying, know what you’re getting into. Let Marshall pitch to both sides occasionally. Don’t let Heilman and Marmol make Kevin Gregg’s job tougher. That sort of thing.
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
I think it's fair to say that between...
Heilman, Miles, and Lou’s questionable game/roster/lineup management…we’ve lost at least 5 games.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
I have to ask a hypothetical question...
…so please bear with me.
If you could chose between these two, which direction would you go:
1. Assume you could get Dallas Green in his prime for the next five years as Cubs GM. Along with that, you had to have Piniella as your manager for the next five years as well (don’t worry about age).
2. You could pick any manager you wanted and that person would manage the club for the next 5 years. Along with that, Jim Hendry would be the GM for 5 years as well.
Which would you pick and why?
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
for the next 5 years? none of the above.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
Let's say...
…you only have these two choices available.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
He could just choose to not make a choice.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Which according to Rush...
…is still making a choice.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
♫ I will choose freewill ♫
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
We were thinking the same thing
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Okay...
…so if you can’t pick one as being “the lessor of two evils”, what would be your direction if you could hand pick the guy who runs your baseball operations and the manager?
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Grimmace
and the Hamburglar.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
And I thought of that scene from Family Guy just now
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Using Grimmace is guaranteed to get a laugh 60% of the time
all the time.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
I don't choose
Get a better ballot.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Gardenhire has always seemed like a guy who can get the most out of his players.
And he doesn’t strike me as a guy who would spew the “Look, what can I do?” line every time he was asked a question.
Having said that, I’m not calling for Lou to be ousted. He’s won 2 consecutive Div. Titles with this organization.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
I would strongly agree...
…with Gardenhire, and I would put him in the top 3 if I could hand pick a manager.
He doesn’t get the big FA players, but he does get guys that come up that are taught strong fundementals, something Cub’s managers have not had the pleasure to experience.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Agreed on Gardenhire.
Given the resources he has in Minnesota, he has done an outstanding job.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
I hate two weevils
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
"Only have two choices"
I hate those questions because there are always more than two choices in this situation.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Good lord this is like " Sophie's Choice"
and likely to end up with the same results metaphorically at least ( death and suicide) .
Doggie Stalker - August 17, 2009
I would choose Baker and Neifi!
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
5 games?
Probably not. I can think of one for sure — last Tuesday vs. the Phillies.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Even Mike Fontenot has shown more value than Aaron Miles this season
That’s pretty sad when you consider that fact. I wouldn’t put money on it, but it would get on my nerves if he was on another team next year and Miles was still a Cub. While Jeff Baker has definitely earned his shot, it doesn’t change the fact that the infield issues still need to be addressed in the offseason.
Maybe Miles hasn’t cost the team five games, but I would think he has influenced the outcome of a handful of games negatively.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Brock for Broglio ??????
I am starting to think D98 was right about the DeRosa worship. Look I liked him as well as most folks and not having him has been a big issue but we did in fact get 3 pretty good looking young pitchers for him. DeRosa is no Brock and he will be an FA at the end of the year. At the time Miles seemed like a reasonable substitute given the absurd obsession with getting more left handed.
Maddux for NOTHING might be Brock for Broglio but DeRosa for Stevens, Gaub and Archer might or might not turn out to be a decent trade. Thinking Miles could replace DeRosa not such a good move but it wasn’t exactly nuts either.
Doggie Stalker - August 17, 2009
I didn't exactly worship DeRosa
That was the closest comparison I could get for the deal and it’s about as long shot as you can get. There’s no doubt in my mind that giving the Cardinals an advantage, even if it was through Cleveland, while crippling the Cubs, is similar to that trade. I’m talking about the spirit of the trade and not necessarily talking about a Hall of Fame caliber player. I thought that was pretty obvious, but I guess not.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Um...
His signing was predicated on the length and amount. If Hendry could have converted Soriano for a 3 year deal, you’re right, Hendry couldn’t have been criticized. As the player only signed with the Cubs on the length of the contract, Hendry can be criticized.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
So you'd trade the 2007 and 2008 division titles...
…as long as we didn’t have Alfonso Soriano? The guy could tear the cover off the ball next year for all you know.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
That's a pretty big could right there
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
We can't predict the future
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
No
but when my car isn’t running all that well, gets worse gas mileage, etc. right now, chances are, over time, those issues aren’t going to magically improve.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Magically? No.
The comparison is similar. Your car needs regular maintenance to remain on the road. Baseball players need to make adjustments, which Soriano doesn’t do all that well. D-Lee has had a better season than he did last year, so it’s not all gloom and doom.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
True
We can only hope.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
That's overstating the obvious
Dempster was on the top of his game in 2008. Soto was very good and was the ROY. DeRosa and Fontenot contributed very well and in totality the whole lineup contributed from top to bottom which brought us two division titles.
Soriano was a major force but I don’t go to the extent saying that those two division titles were all because of Soriano.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
All because of Soriano?
No way. I have a hard time seeing the Cubs winning the division in 2007 without him. I don’t have as hard of a time seeing it in 2008, but it’s hard to deny his contributions.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
I am not denying his contributions.
I am just saying that you are overstating the facts. Just as you can’t predict the future, you can’t predict the past with a different set of events also.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Can't change the past either
Predicting the past with a different set of events? I get what you’re saying, but you can’t change the past.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Soriano had pretty good years, but also had huge slumps.
Further, you can’t take the positives from 07 and 08 and ignore the entire contract.
If the question is would I prefer if Hendry had not signed Soriano at his age, health, and contract, both dollars and years? Yes. I expect the negatives of the contract will far outweigh the hot streaks of 07 and 08.
I guess I’m not viewing signing or not signing Soriano in a vacuum. If Hendry had not committed $18M to the Fonz, that money would have been spent elsewhere and possibly filled the needs that lead to the LH Power Bat for RF jones that lead to Fukudome and Bradley. Neither horrible players, but more big contracts.
Soriano was signed to provide a plus bat in center field be a lead off hitter who could get on base and steal a few. All roles Soriano has yet to fulfill.
I guess I believe if Hendry had used offseason allocated salary to fill the actual voids in those years, he might have addressed second base and the bullpen for 2009 and be less hamstrung over the next three years.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
And if a frog had wings...
I’m just being facetious there. Even though I think Hendry deserves to get canned, I think blowing up the 2008 team is more of a reason than the length of the Soriano contract.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
My point is Hendy spent on that contract to fill a
need. Soriano didn’t fill the void at leadoff or CF and proved he can’t layoff a RH slider.
Next offseason, Hendry’s shopping list is a LH Power Hitter, Big dollars and years are given to Fukudome. He doesn’t fill that void.
Next offseason, Hendry’s shopping list is a LH Power Hitter. Budget isn’t as big because of prior spending and Bradley is plucked off the shelf as a store demo (a little damaged, but almost as good as new) with a little discount. He too is not a LH power hitter.
My point is not a DeRosa/Wood tirade, but Hendry let go his second baseman and closer to free up coin and those are the holes this year. The 2008 roster shuffle is directly related to the Soriano signing.
If his offseason spending the last three years filled the holes needed, I wouldn’t be panicking that the window on this team is closing.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I think Fukudome solves our problem at leadoff...
…if only Lou would keep him there. Soriano is not going to bat leadoff ever again or at least you’d hope he wouldn’t. Bradley seems to be coming around and hitting better, so he may have a better 2010 season. With Harden likely not coming back and our pitching situation hopefully resolved for cheaper, the Cubs need to hope Aramis stays healthy and Lee and Fox repeat their 2009 success.
Bleak? Sure. But fixing the pen will go a long way to improving the team.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Our current players simply performing closer to their career norms...
would fix this team yesterday.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
Turn it green.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Agreed, but he's in that role as the organization
fumbles to find him a role after he didn’t pan out in the desired role.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I lost $20, but I found the $5 I lost last week
Didn’t really happen, but that’s the best analogy I can determine fits.
Ace Venom - August 17, 2009
Seems pretty close,
lacking accountability to others like a fanbase or ownership, but close.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
You're going to break your wrist with all that hand-waving there
Rather than just saying “Oh I bet we could have gotten someone else” please be specific. Specifically what free agent outfielder could Hendry have signed in 2006-2007 or 2007-2008 that would be an improvement over what we have, and would still have helped us get into the playoffs in 2007 and / or 2008.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
I didn't advocate for Hendry to spend on a free agent outfielder.
I said he could have spent the money elsewhere, as in used the budget space to take on a contract in trade, bolster the bullpen, etc.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
So "Matt Murton" is your answer then?
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Matt Murton
has a UHQ of 100%.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
No, but Matt Murton was Hendry's answer for 2007
as the every day LF.
Not sure the point you’re trying to make at my expense.
When Soriano couldn’t play CF, Murton lost his position and Pie was rushed to the majors to try to fill the void in CF.
I can’t tell, but are you arguing that none of these dominos are related?
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I'm saying that it's hand waving to say we'd be better without Soriano
Without going back and saying who we would have gotten that production from the last 2 years instead.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
As I wasn't answering Hendry's phone to field calls from agents and other
GM’s, I have no way of identifying individuals. That would be like me demanding you to guarantee that no free agent or trade opporunity was lost because of the Soriano contract.
My only points, which you won’t address are that Soriano was signed for big money to fill specific roles and was slid over into a position more easily filled as LF is the easiest position to fill. Said big money would have filled needs beyond LF, probably not a single big ticket item.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I'm not convinced of the truthfulness of this "Soriano was signed to play CF" meme
That’s popped up around here, and while I’m sure the Cubs may have hoped it would work out – you don’t commit that kind of money solely on the hopes that someone can play a position they’ve never played.
Especially at that point in time, when the Cubs were still convinced that Pie would develop into a star (and all indications, at that point, were that he would).
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
The funny thing is if you read through this string, it comes across
that I hate Soriano, I don’t. I dispise his contract and the 5 years left, especially with his obvious decline.
Soriano the individual received way too much publicity those early years with the Yankees and it was probably the fantasy spin of having solid offensive numbers from a second baseman.
As a CF, he became less interesting, as a LF, he’s not interesting at all in his time with the Cubs.
I’m frustrated with Hendry and the multi year big no trade contracts he gives free agent position players to fill the identified big offseason need. Frustrated when the smoke clears and the budget spot is taken by a player to can’t fill the needed role. Soriano can’t play CF and no longer steals bases, Fukudome is no left handed power hitter, Bradley is no left handed power hitter.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
While he’d obviously be more valuable if he were a capable center fielder, this is a little silly to say. Soriano was worth almost 9 wins above replacement over the course of 2007 and 2008. He was one of the most valuable defensive left fielders by Dewan’s +/- system.
That he’s been terrible this year hasn’t changed the fact that he was extremely good the last 2 years.
Why do people keep saying this? He’s never been a power hitter, even in his career year last season. His slugging is a little low this year, but he’s on pace to be right back at his career numbers at the end of the year.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
I think pepole keep saying that about Bradley
Because that’s the need the Cubs identified in the off season and they acquired him to fill it, even though that is not what he is.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
What were the exact quotes in the off-season?
I recall them saying they needed to get more left-handed, given that they were one of the most right-handed teams in history to make the playoffs.
Where did they say those left-handed hitters needed to be power bats?
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Run producers, I believe was the mantra
Which, yes, that doesn’t necessitate homerun hitters.
Still, I believe that is the role that the management envisioned, which is why Piniella put him in what is traditionally viewed as an “RBI slot” in the lineup for much of the season.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I do believe...
…the said they were looking for a left handed stick who could drive in runs. That usually means a guy with pop.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Usually, but in Bradley's case they knew what they were getting
I’m not sure why people think the Cubs would be surprised that Milton Bradley is Milton Bradley. And no one anywhere has ever considered him a power hitter. But he does produce runs.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Did they?
I think that’s N Oakley’s point. Square peg, round hole.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I know, I'm crazy.
I want the big ticket free agents to fill the acknowledged need and be of a duration to match the players production.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
You silly!
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Or, if the GM blows it he isn't
allowed to Matt Millen the same pick year after year.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
That's the scary part...
…if they knew what they were getting, why did they expect something different from him?
Same thing with signing Soriano to be the leadoff guy. He should have been put in the 5 hole back in 07.
They did the same thing with Hawkins in 04. They had a history of failing as a closer, and what do you know, they use him as a closer.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
At least with Hawkins, they signed him to be
the setup guy, a role where he excelled.
He was forced into the closer role by injuries and other failings of other pitchers.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I realize that...
…but at some point, you have to get the joke and go in a different direction. If it was Dusty that insisited on using him, than Hendry should have put a stop to it. It would have been one thing if Hawkins had a track record of success closing, but it was the exact opposite.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Exactly correct.
And Ryan Dempster was on the 2004 team. He wasn’t completely back yet, but he could have closed. Hendry pretty much had to force Baker to use him that way in 2005, after Hawkins again started blowing saves left and right.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
From many sources
Muskrat for fun
I like this one which quotes Hendry
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
By Thunder I'm assuming he wasn't referring to chili in the
postgame buffet.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Yep.
And that’s not Bradley’s fault – he was miscast.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
And so was Soriano and so was Fukudome.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I don't know that I agree with Fukudome
He was brought in to be a high OBP guy, which he has been.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Oh, Badger...
Hendry touted the power.
N Oakley - August 18, 2009
Well, they didn't QUOTE Hendry saying that . . . .
Yeah, that’s not good.
Shanghai Badger - August 18, 2009
359 PAs so far
293 at bats.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
I guess it's tough to measure him on his at bats
given the number of games he’s been healthy but Lou started someone else.
Has Bradley pinch hit in most games he didn’t start? If so his 96 games is on track with the 125 ish expecation of most of us.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
15 PA as a pinch hitter
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
that's what I was thinking
Take away the at bats lost because Lou wanted someone actuall hitting, he’s on track with the games played etc expected.
That lack of RBI’s in his stat line is glaring.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
not most.
but some.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
exactly.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Let me ask you this,
If the Cubs don’t sign Soriano in 2007, does Aramis resign with the Cubs?
I think he just might have left and gone to the Angels. That would have been a disaster.
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
Good thing Zambrano is more worried about
Keeping the tips of his hair frosted, rather than doing his core workouts.
RynoTheCub - August 17, 2009
yunel escobar is a cub now?
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
yes
because that’s the conclusion we can draw from this. o.0
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
What does Ryan Braun have to do with any of this? :)
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
ok that is funny craig
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
Cardinals fan dropping by.
From 2003-2007 Zambrano pitched over 200 innings. Last year, he pitched a little under 190. I was wondering if an injury that I don’t remember accounted for his drop in innings (around 30), and if so, was it back related?
Basically, to simplify my question, has he shown any prior indications of back issues?
ilrosso - August 17, 2009
I remember he was pretty shaky early last year
and I’m pretty sure he did have a DL stint as well, so that could account for the drop.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
He had that shoulder injury last year...
was on the DL in June, had more problems with it in September missed another start or two.
dtc0405 - August 17, 2009
he had tendinitis in september
jesus christos - August 17, 2009
Honestly, this is the first I ever heard...
…of Z having a bulging disc in his back. But maybe I just missed the story somewhere along the line.
daver - August 17, 2009
This is the first time we have heard of back issues.
My feeling is, he probably had the bulging disc for a while, but this is the first time it has become an issue for him pitching — which is why he now has to do the exercises more faithfully.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Yeah, since when has this organization ever been upfront about players injuries?
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
+1
There was The Employee.
memphiscub - August 17, 2009
Um...
…. since John McDonough and Crane Kenney took over.
The old ways of obfuscation about Wood & Prior were a MacPhail era staple.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Andres Blanco is really hurt?
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
How's David Patton's Groin?
CubsBullsBears - August 17, 2009
That's kind of a personal question there fella.
Just how well do you know Mr. Patton to be asking such an intimate question?
Zeke - August 17, 2009
What's the plan for Chad Fox?
tony412 - August 17, 2009
I think Hendry...
…owes him a couple more ST invites still.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
I heard it was just a flesh wound
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Come back and fight you coward!
Zeke - August 17, 2009
re'd times 1000
and +5
The Patton injury is complete BS and everyone knows it.
CalCalender - August 17, 2009
I don't think we care
if they obfuscate fake injuries. They’ve been pretty up front about real ones.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Nice use of "obfuscate".
+1 grammar / vocab ninja point.
AndrewJStone - August 17, 2009
Al's the vocab ninja, then
Because he used it first up above and you didn’t notice.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
(no true ninja is noticed)
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Flew under the radar... Al is a true sensei.
AndrewJStone - August 17, 2009
That is one of the most frustrating
things about the Cardinals organization as well. It’s infuriating.
ilrosso - August 17, 2009
I think I just had a great idea!
Is there any way we can convince Big Z to punch Aaron Miles in the face? The last time Z punched a teammate in the face, the teammate left the team shortly thereafter.
KDoggers - August 17, 2009
Maybe Miles can say something like $18 million dollar arm and .10 cent
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
If he can do it quickly...
Miles may get traded to the Padres and can play SS for them in this series. That could go a long way in helping us sweep them.
santoswoodenlegs - August 17, 2009
Miles is just 1-for-16 since he was activated from the disabled list Aug. 5.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
That seems kinda high...
I thought it was something more like 1-for-…ever
Blue W - August 17, 2009
Good to see he's maintaining that rocking .250 average from AAA.
Oh, wait…
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Won't stand on my soapbox for too long, but...
I’m just so sick of Big Z. It is always something with him, he never just shuts his mouth, and pitches. Donovan McNabb said he would play TE or receiver if it meant getting Vick in there to make the team better, Z wouldn’t even pitch out of the pen to help the team. One thing I’m sure of, he will never be an ace.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
"Z wouldn’t even pitch out of the pen to help the team"
What? This is hilarious. Just when you think it can’t get any worse with cub fans.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
You're missing the context.
Z had just left a start with an injury. Don’t you think that might have had something to do with him not wanting to pitch out of the bullpen?
cowsarecool220 - August 17, 2009
ROFL
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Z wouldn’t even pitch out of the pen to help the team.
LOL, WHUT?
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
I think the point is more that sometimes it seems like it's all about him
He does things that some people would rather not see an ace of a baseball do. He even himself admits he needs to work on staying in shape more. That isn’t a reporter (or a fan) picking on him when he states that himself. He is taking a good look at himself objectively and taking off the rose colored glasses and saying I need to work harder when I’m not on the baseball field. He is being critical of himself.
I think this is a sign of maturity on his part.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
From Al's recap last week...
The positive news the Cubs received Sunday on the two key players who left Saturday’s game with minor injuries could pay quick dividends this week in Cincinnati, including the intriguing — if remote — possibility that Carlos Zambrano could pitch out of the bullpen for the first time in seven years.
Even if Zambrano didn’t exactly embrace the idea.
Manager Lou Piniella raised that possibility for the second consecutive night after another rough finish for a bullpen that has been worked hard lately
- in large part because of Zambrano’s early exit Saturday because of lowerback stiffness.“He’s got till Friday,” Piniella said of Zambrano’s anticipated fitness for his next scheduled start, “unless we put him in the bullpen for a couple of days. We might need him there in Cincinnati.”
Said Zambrano, when told of Piniella’s comments: “I’m not a reliever.”
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/8/3/973639/did-you-ever-think-youd-be-this#19161059
What is so difficult to understand cubsnlinux & drewishdrewid? Z’s boss said he might have to perform a task at work, and selfish Z brushed off Lou’s commets like it was a joke. Don’t know about you guys, but when my boss tells me to do something, I do it. Do you think it is below Z to pitch out of the pen?
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
so I’m an IT guy. I don’t work with databases. When by boss comes to me and says “You need to write a stored procedure that queries these three tables and puts the data into a report” I’m just supposed to say “yes sir”? And then… fail? I would expect that no one likes being set up to fail.
Furthermore, you don’t know what context Z said that. It’s been suggested that he said so in a joking manner.
No where is it remotely possible to state surely that Z is being “selfish”.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
come on...
Z is selfish because he didn’t volunteer to catch a couple of games while Soto was out.
Where in the world do people get these ideas that Z is selfish blah blah that I really do not understand.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Huh?
You have derailed, what are you talking about Z catching a couple days? Was that just a bad joke?
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
as bad as your proclamation of Z as selfish
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
The thing is,
I like Z, and don’t think he is intentionally selfish. But I’m going to call out a player despite the fact I like and root for him.
He isn’t an ace, and never will be unless he seriously changes his mindset.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
I don't think it's selfishness so much as immaturity
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I would agree with that.
I’m just so sick of always looking past Z’s antics.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
Maybe one got the idea from when I player says
I am lazy.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I was staying away from this one until I saw this
I am reminded of an interview I heard on a pregame show with then-Cubs pitcher Jeff Robinson. He recalled asking Jim Leyland what his role on the Pirates’ staff was. Leyland grabbed him by the jersey, pointed in his face, and said, “Your ‘role’ is to get major league hitters out.”
How would having an established starter throw an inning or two in relief be setting him up to fail?
Your point about the context in which it was said is valid. The other point, however . . . .
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
well, ok.
and I can certainly see Z pitching some innings in relief. But we’ve talked about, for example, putting Harden in the closer spot, and how that would be a bad idea. If Lou insisted on putting Harden in as closer, wouldn’t that be setting him up to fail, even though his job is to get hitters out?
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Still not the same thing
The main reason given for not making Harden the closer around these parts is that he can’t bounce back that quickly.
Harden could certainly close one game and be expected to perform well. However, he may not be successful doing so on consecutive days or two of three days.
If Piniella was really considering using Zambrano in relief, I am willing to bet a month’s salary that he wasn’t contemplating a permanent move for Zambrano. He should be able to handle an inning or two once or twice in a six game span.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
damn you badger...
trying to be all rational and stuff
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
oh, I know
I was just bringing up a situation where a manager could set a pitcher up to fail simply by having him pitch.
You can argue that having Gregg go into that second inning last week or the week before was the same thing — setting a pitcher, who rarely goes more than one inning, up to fail.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Sure, that's true
And Ned Yost did that last April when he asked Gagne to pitch something like 4 days in a row, 5 out of 6 . . . . something ridiculous like that.
But the quote was used more to say, if you can get hitter ‘X’ out, it shouldn’t matter if you see hitter ‘X’ for the first time in inning 1 or inning 7.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
I would add...
…that Lou’s message was intended to show Z he needs to step it up a notch, and he was probably not serious about using him in the pen.
On a similar note, I guess it was a good thing (for the Sox) that Buerhle didn’t tell Guillen has wasn’t a relief pitcher in game 3 of the 2005 world series.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Or Josh Beckett volunteering to relieve in game 7
of the 2003 NLCS
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
Be nice. Z saying he's a starter in a regular season interview is not really comparable to
Beckett wanting to win at all costs in game 7 of the NLCS.
Z would want to DH in the world series and pitch every game.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
I didn't mean to imply that
Just piggybacking off what MPH said.
He’d want to play OF if he wasn’t able to pitch, and he’d probably run into the wall to catch a ball.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
"Z would want to DH in the world series and pitch every game."
and then cub fans would call him Selfish because now he wants to do everything.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
You do realize
That strawman comments like these are every bit as absurd as what you are accusing the “haters” of being, right?
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
what?
I saw so many people label Z selfish when he hurt himself on that bunt single.
The above is a fact.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
I use to be like you too,
and drink Z’s kool aid.
I don’t think your boss would put you in a position he knows you’re certain to fail, if he does then he is a bad manager. The same goes for Lou, if he thinks Z could be of use out of the pen, Z should shut his mouth and do what his boss says.
It is always something with Z. He is on the computer too much and his forearm hurts, doesn’t drink enough water despite being told to hydrate, doesn’t do his abs work because he doesn’t like doing them, and God forbid he would ever say, if I am healthy to pitch, and Lou wants to use me in the pen for a week, I’ll do it.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
It's not necessary to drink Kool Aid
But can we think a little objectively before throwing opinions powered by Chicago media as gospel?
As a starter I would suggest you read this -
http://www.anothercubsblog.net/index.php/site/comments/a-cardinals-brewers-and-astros-fan-would-like-zambrano-on-their-team/
Let me know what you think.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Objectively
He said I’ve been lazy…..
How can you look at the objectively and not think he’s been immuture or selfish or what ever word you want to use.
So if he isnt selfish, what does admitting at your job you’ve been lazy preparing for it mean?
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
+1
How many times has he been on the DL or taken out of games, and how many of those times are because of Z’s own doing?
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
my hope is maybe this is a turning point
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I'll bite
how many, slocs 55?
berselius - August 17, 2009
It was retorical...
I don’t want to do the research, but I know there is the dehydration issues a few times, forearm from the computer time, now the back due to laziness.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
"How many times"
Did you read the excellent post that I mentioned above? Do you realize that Z is one of the best pitchers in the NL and in the game today? Do you realize how many innings he pitched year after year as a Cub?
Let me throw some stats at you for a change because it looks like you are “selfish/lazy” to look at them yourself -
Pitcher – Innings pitched (2004-2008)
-——————————————————————————-Chris Carpenter (STL) – 665
Roy Oswalt – 1118
Carlos Zambrano – 1050
CC Sabathia – 1070
Pitcher – Innings pitched (2003-2008)
-——————————————————————————-Roy Oswalt – 1245
Carlos Zambrano – 1264
CC Sabathia – 1267
Ummm…from the above I wonder who pitched in Z’s jersey while he was punching his keyboard while enjoying time on DL!!!
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
I've said Z
is a very good pitcher, I’m not taking that away from him. All I’m saying is if he had a better mindset, we would be watching a Hall of Fame pitcher, instead we are watch a very nice career who will make a few All Star appearances.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
You weren't online about 10 days ago, were you?
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
ahh come on now..
if we all have better mindsets then we all would be saints. So Z is now selfish because he is not a Hall of Fame pitcher?
I just don’t understand why you cannot accept Z as Z and forget about the what ifs? Why do we constantly create our own ridiculously imaginary standards and chastise him for not meeting those?
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Z is frustrating...
…because he makes things so difficult on himself, and that has limited his performance from being better than it has been.
I think the guy is just very immature, more than he is selfish. How many time has he done something very non-productive and than acted like a little kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar during his numerous apologies?
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
like Lilly charging from the dugout when he wasn't even in the game
or when Lee was throwing a punch at Chris Young or like when Dempster hurt his toe while running onto the field to celebrate?
Look I get what you are saying. But Z is where he is today because of what he is and what he did. Can he be better? Sure, we all can be.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Are you actually comparing...
…Z’s behavorial patterns with Lee, Dempster and Lilly? I think you are really searching on this one.
I agree he is what he is, and it is clear that he will probably follow the same pattern for the rest of his career.
MPH73 - August 17, 2009
Drew if you are reading this...
I take back any comments that I might have implied you were a bit over the top w/ how you defended Z.
B/c unbeknown to me you weren’t as fanatical as I thought.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I'm reading.
I’m not sure that Demp’s broken toe can be compared to Z’s issues. But Ted Lilly did once throw a punch at his manager.
My take is, these are all different guys, and to expect them to act alike is going to make you crazy anyway. Z is what he is.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
If Z had broken his toe jumping the dugout fence
There would be 400 post articles here arguing about how it proved how terrible of a person he was.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Not "terrible person"
But a stupid person? Yes.
And I and others posted that Dempster was a moron for doing it.
Worf - August 17, 2009
For as much as Al likes to trot out that straw man
…about stat guys thinking that numbers play the game, it seems fans like you are the ones constantly surprised and outraged that imperfect human beings are the ones out there playing baseball.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
And your point is that
Dempster didn’t do a stupid thing?
Worf - August 17, 2009
I'm just curious, I suppose
but what other poster agreed with you that Dempster was a moron for having an accident?
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Agreed.
With some peoples predispositions Dempster’s just a bad decision and Z doing the same proves what they’ve thought/said all along.
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
oh
absolutely. “It’s not his job to celebrate with the team, it’s his job to pitch!”
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
And to use steps!
Worf - August 17, 2009
well, fine
but it was an ACCIDENT.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
There are accidents
and preventable accidents.
If I juggled chainsaws and cut my arm off, it would still be an accident.
Worf - August 17, 2009
Backseat head shrinking
Z’s “mindset” is what got him where he is today. To pitch that many innings in 5 seasons takes an incredible mixture of hard work, drive, and willingness to play in pain.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
But...but..If Z were less selifsh
then he could have been our cleanup hitter, backup catcher, could have been the PA guy and bullpen catcher when he wasn’t pitching. Darn Z!
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Don't forget
he could replace Miles at SS too. ;-)
sue369 - August 17, 2009
Well...
If only Miles were a little less selfish and lazy he could have been our answer to Pujols. It’s all in the mindset.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
You said I took things out of context...
The bottom line, if you don’t think Z’s antics don’t detract from his effectiveness, you aren’t paying attention.
But I guess Steve Stone, Brenly, Plesac, Rosenthal, and every other analysts that has said Z is counterproductive due to his antics, is wrong.
I feel like cubsnlinux is taking crazy pills.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
I see that you are not using the word "Selfish" anymore
and started using adjectives like “counter productive” etc etc. Looks like the effect of whatever you took this morning is slowly going away and you are returning back to reality.
Z wants to give his 200% every damn game. The guy wants to pitch, wants to hit, wants to run hard to 1B on slow grounders, wants to hit home runs, is seen joking and having a great time in the dugout when he is not pitching, wants to pinch hit etc etc. Wouldn’t you want such a guy on your team? At least I would. He needs to slow down a little and that I agree. But calling him Selfish is just silly.
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
Why do you care so much?
IN CASE YOU MISSED THE TITLE OF THIS ARTICLE IT WAS THE Z SAID HE WAS LAZY.
Now if I flat out said I was lazy preparing for my job, but at work I gave 200%. There would still be the issue of me NOT PREPARING. I think most people would consider that selfish or immuture.
Im not saying he’s not a good player, or a good teamate. But anyones who admits to BEING LAZY. Is being critical of themselves, so others aren’t aloud then to be critical of that person when they are being critical of themselves?
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
are you going to yell at me
if I ask if the context of the lazy part is “I haven’t been doing my abs”? There’s no indication that he’s been blowing off his conditioning except for the comment about not wanting to do crunches.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
that wasn't directed @ you
it was at cubslinux
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
I know
but I did want to point out the possible context.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
Good point:)
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
You didn't read!
If you read what I typed above, you would have seen that I said immature was a better word than selfish. The fact of the matter is you’re not rational about your Z man crush, does he do anything wrong? I’ve said both positive and negative things about him, you make it seem like he is perfect.
Let’s say your financial advisor gave 200% every damn time he met with you, but never did the proper research before the meeting, would you accept that?
I still think you’re taking crazy pills.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
I think
there are probably a lot of Bears fan that would love to see TO in town, then ask them if they still want him around after a year or two. I am not putting Z on the level of antics with TO, but you get the point…I would think.
Z is a very good pitcher, I love watching him pitch, but it gets old watching him stand in his own way of greatness year after year.
slocs55 - August 17, 2009
I don't drink koolaid.
I see Z for what he is — a flawed, brilliant at times, starting pitcher.
drewishdrewid - August 17, 2009
who hopefully will now open his eyes
I grow up a bit. He has the potential….. he just needs channel it.
Maybe he could work on breathing thru his eye lids like the lava lizards
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
Ugh.
There just aren’t enough details here to make a big deal out of this.
What was the context that Z heard Piniella’s comments in? Perhaps the quote was read to him, along with a followup “what do you think of that?” and he responded “i’m not a reliever.” That doesn’t equal him refusing to pitch in relief, or anything of that nature. That equals him stating that relief pitching, in general, isn’t his job.
Hating on Z for over-exuberance is one thing. Accusing him of not doing what he can to help the team win is another.
AndrewJStone - August 17, 2009
The context is the key
And since the story died, it probably was a non-issue from the beginning.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
ESPN radio this AM
praising TLR and the Cards…..which they say will win the division over the ‘underacheiving’ Cubs. And, of course the usual “Best Fans In Baseball” ® proclaimation. Not quite sure what that had to do with the discussion, though.
Alleged ‘sloppy " Spring Training by the Cubs has carried over to the regular season, and you’d never see that from a TLR team.
Blamed the last 2 Cardinals seasons on injuries, not the Cubs “overchieving to win the division.”
Then said “See? We talk about Midwest baseball here.”
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - August 17, 2009
Did you then open a window and throw it out?
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
Everything Schumaker and Pujols Network
CaliCub - August 17, 2009
More reasons not to listen to that dribble from the Eastern Sports Network
JFCubFan - August 17, 2009
Heath Bell after yesterday's game.
he was referring to the grounder he took off his leg in the 9th before blowing the game, but the quote is still priceless.
"Yeah, it was throbbing but I blocked it out pretty good," Bell said. "I was surprised how big it was when I took my pants off."
DC Cubbie - August 17, 2009
I say that to myself a lot
It’s like I forget during the course of the day!
PacificCub - August 17, 2009
lol
DC Cubbie - August 17, 2009
TWSS
odd side note one of my neighbors I noticed yesterday has named their wireless that is what she said.
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
Seriously, do you have a link to that?
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
here
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=Ao3Z.I98.9HAPhAEyjOqyk64u7YF?gid=290816124
DC Cubbie - August 17, 2009
Man!
TWSS!!!!
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
That quote is king sized.
Very nice.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Matt Stairs is still my favorite
In the unintentionally hilarious sexual allusion dept
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqZDe4364BI&feature=PlayList&p=EFA447728896816B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19
Matt Stairs GAY ICON
Doggie Stalker - August 17, 2009
If that's what she said then I think maybe that lady you're with is a man
You must have A-Rod’s taste in women.
Wreckard - August 17, 2009
Al, I get derisive stares when I mention this to anyone older than I
But this is dead on:
I was baseball-related-injury-free throughout childhood and through high school. At 18, I left for college, didn’t bother to take care of my shoulder; thought I was invincible, and pitched as hard as nasty as I could…after not throwing for months. For all intents and purposes, my career was over at age 19. Just being able to play well enough for it to still be fun? Gone at 20. Still angry at myself.
Now at 28, I have trouble getting out of bed 5 out of 7 days a week because my back is so damaged from work and softball. I yearn for the days where I didn’t have to do a thing to not have torn tendons, bulging discs, pinched nerves, and arthritic hands.
That being said, the professional athlete of today is PAID to make sure none of that happens… I’m not, but wish I was.
PacificCub - August 17, 2009
Just wait til you're
50, dude!
I have losing and gaining the same 5 pounds of the 15 I am supposed to be losing, for a year!
The E-Man - August 17, 2009
I honestly hate to think of it
I feel like crap now, how will I feel at 50? All the more reason to get in better shape, I suppose. Of course, I’m also kind of predisposed to have back issues, being 6’5" and all…
PacificCub - August 17, 2009
When you lose 5 pounds, I gain them. And vice versa.
My theory is that there is a finite amount of weight on the planet and is simply redistributed through dieting, death and birth.
Zeke - August 17, 2009
it gets worse at 50?
shit!! I thought it was all over at 40………just 3 years ago for me………….torn ACL playing basketball………bad back………if 50 is that much worse a I may be a REAL ledge jumper! lol
plenz - August 17, 2009
In a 2004 interview Maddux talked about his older brother Mike
( Mike being 4 years older) telling him a few years ago " you don’t know how hard I have to work to get out of an inning" and at the
time Greg said he did not understand what Mike meant but now he did. The rail thin Maddux of 1988 could wolf down Big Macs
& Krispy Kremes as if there no tomorrow but the gut busting Maddux of later years hired a personal trainer in the off season and the Padres had him doing yoga.
Doggie Stalker - August 17, 2009
Do you guys know
If us non-chicagoans (but inside the normal insane MLB blackout territory) can catch tonight’s game on MLB.TV ?
cubsnlinux - August 17, 2009
I don't know.
Anyone else?
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
I thought you could get all games with that.
I don’t have it, so I could be mistaken. I know that I’ll be able to get it on EI, but will probably get SD announcers.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
You will get the SD announcers on EI.
WCIU games don’t get picked up by EI.
Al Yellon - August 17, 2009
Ah, well.
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
on the bright side to that it's a 9pm start
so many people will go to bed before it’s over
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
Funny thing
Just checked the web, and they didn’t have it on the schedule at all.
Of course, I’m too old to stay up for the whole game, anyway, and I won’t get home until around 10.
Kaplan would say I’m not a real fan because I’m not planning to stay up . . . .
Shanghai Badger - August 17, 2009
No blackouts here in Europe, but that probably won't help you.
9:05 PM CDT is 4:05 AM CEST, which is as effective as blackout…
eths - August 17, 2009
Probably the Padres feed
It’s being featured on EI
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - August 17, 2009
I just got back from a 4-mile walk in the Encinitas/Carlsbad area.
In the time I was out (about 4-5 hours), I got remarks about the Cubs from two people. Both of the remarks were pro-Cub.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Were you wearing Cubs gear?
Or was it just a very random encounter in which both people just so happen to bring up the Cubs while walking?
DTJchris - August 17, 2009
A little bit of both.
Wearing Cubs gear.
The first remark came from a guy who worked as a waiter in a Panera Restaurant, where I ate lunch. The second remark came from a girl (who I did not see) while walking back to where I am staying.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Was the girl invisible?
Or was it like a voice from the sky?
DTJchris - August 17, 2009
Driving a car. I was crossing a major thoroughfare in the area and she called out, "GO CUBS!"
I looked back, but didn’t see her.
She sounded young, about my age.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
She was driving or in a car*
Called out while I had a “walk” signal about an hour ago.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Ah, now everything makes sense
DTJchris - August 17, 2009
Yes.
I looked back, but couldn’t see her.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Maybe she was waving her hand in front of her face?
N Oakley - August 17, 2009
Very true
She could have been standing right next to you. But once that hand starts waving, you can’t see that person.
DTJchris - August 17, 2009
Nope, it was just me walking across the street.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Are you from the area or visiting?
I heard they are changing the name of Quail Gardens to San Diego Botanical?
“San Diego”? How about “Pacific”?
DudeVf11 - August 17, 2009
Visiting.
I flew in to San Diego on Saturday. It was a long day of travel, as I flew from Burlington, VT-Newark, NJ-Houston, TX-San Diego, CA … over 13 hours in total.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
OMG that sounds like the flight from hell
Madison Cub Fan - August 17, 2009
It was the trip from Hell, actually.
Three different flights, operated by three different planes.
I wasn’t complaining at the end of it, though … it was on Continental Airlines, which Fortune Magazine called the World’s Most Admired Airline of 2009.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Really?
I’ve always had my worst experiences without question from Continental. Small sample size though. Midwest express and Delta/Northwest are what I try to get when I travel for work
berselius - August 17, 2009
As for the possible renaming of the Quail Gardens, I have no knowledge of that.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Neither have I
San Diego Smooth Jazz Man - August 17, 2009
Well, if you enjoy things like that then Quail Gardens in Encinitas is worth a visit. Also...
…if you like great on site beer and pizza then check out Pizza Port in Solana Beach, it’s outstanding. Different brews all the time and fantastic pizza. They might have a location in Carlsbad, too, not sure.
DudeVf11 - August 17, 2009
OT: It's never going to stop raining here
and I can picture Allie and others floating along in makeshift boats as I type this.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
Please don't send that to Vermont.
We’ve gotten enough rain as it is.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
It's actually let up right now
That doesn’t mean much though, considering every other time it’s let up it’s downpoured for at least 15 to 20 minutes. This has happened repeatedly today. Our fire pit is fairly deep and we’ve had to empty that out a few times so far.
Craig in South Bend - August 17, 2009
we neeeeeeeeeeeeeeed the rain in Central Texas
feel free to send it our way
Cubbie-Tim - August 17, 2009
Okay, I'm heading on out!
Going to be going to PETCO in a while (I won’t be back here until after the game).
GO CUBS GO!!!!
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 17, 2009
Have a great time at the game Vermont... I'll be looking for ya!
Jimmyeatworld - August 17, 2009
JIMMY!
Cubbie-Tim - August 17, 2009
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