Bleed Cubbie Blue

I think we should keep him, but not because of the wild card

At this point, the Twins are basically paying for one month of Rich Harden; are they really going to give up better prospects than we could get with two high draft picks that we’ll get if we lose him as a free agent?

msquared10 - August 31, 2009 reply

Theres still an outside chance at the wild card

but if the twins offer a legit package that is better than the 2 draft picks we would get…..Id take it. IMO, I don’t think the cubs would sign harden in the offseason anyways.

cubsmania - August 31, 2009 reply

Harden is going to get more starts than any other pitcher from this point till end of year.

cozmotaylor123 - August 31, 2009 reply

1 game per week.

That’s what it will take. Now, while the Cubs haven’t necessarily shown an ability to get on a serious roll, I think a game a week is an attainable goal.

Agreed.

That's assuming everybody else just meanders through September

It’s likely to require a 24-10 run to make it. And that assumes that neither Atlanta nor Florida go better than 20-12, and that neither SF nor Colorado go better than 16-15.

Baseball prospectus’ simulator has the odds at 36-1 against…. passing not just both SF and Colorado, but Florida and Atlanta as well.

I think the Cubs are likely to catch the two NL East teams, but not both NL West teams as well. One of those two will go 18-13, and I just don’t see how the current Cub roster can whack out enough wins given the various ways that they’ve managed to lose games in August.

I know it'll be tough (and unlikely)

But the Cubs as a team can’t focus on going 24-10. It’s far easier to look in the standings and maintain a goal of chopping 1 game of the standings per week instead of the overall record.

The two things in the Cubs’ favor down the stretch are their schedule and the fact that Colorado/San Francisco and Atlanta/Florida beat up on each other in the last 5 weeks.

Sell

I say get what you can for him. There’s nothing I’ve seen from this team that suggests it can make a run at the Wild Card. I hate to be a downer, but that’s the way I see it.

But why not just offer arbitration and get the draft picks

I don’t know about you but if we can keep Harden, make a run to the playoffs and then get draft picks, why not. And if he accepts arbitration (Which he won’t) then we still have a solid number 3 or 4 pitcher, really solid (when healthy)

niuhuskie224 - August 31, 2009 reply

Depends on what the trade return would be...

If we could get better prospects via trade, it may be worth it to let him go and forego the less than 5% chance that the team makes the playoffs this year.

If the return is going to be less than the value of two first-round picks, then I’d say keep him for the duration of the season.

+1

leothelip - August 31, 2009 reply

Yep, this is the key question - and only Hendry will know the answer.

Yes

That’s the key. If the Twins offer is better than two first-round picks, you take it. Otherwise, you pass.

Josh Timmers - August 31, 2009 reply

This a bit misleading

Who do the Twins give up that is better than the two draft picks ( first round & supplemental) you would get for Harden ? I can’t see the Cubs admitting they are out of itby trading Harden unless they get someone great in return and I don’t see the Twins giving up anyone that good.

Doggie Stalker - August 31, 2009 reply

My point exactly.

Well, I think the Twins could afford to give up an OF

because they have Cuddyer-Span-Kubel-Delmon-Gomez, with Hicks and Revere coming up. Span might be within reach.

Not Span.

I mean Revere. The Twins OF is young enough and the Twins have enough other OF prospects, and would get two draft picks, that trading one good prospect, even a top 100 prospect could make sense.

Is Span worth more to the Cubs than the two picks ?

I don’t know so I am asking .

Doggie Stalker - August 31, 2009 reply

Span and a minor leaguer would surely be worth more...

Span by himself would probably be worth more. It’s always better to have a sure thing than to take a draft pick which has about a 30% chance of making the big leagues.

Of course, I doubt they’d trade Span for one month of Harden.

Span

I’d easily take a Denard Span for Rich Harden right now, but I don’t see them moving him. Moving Span defeats the purpose of a Harden deal, as it weakens their lineup and defense. I don’t see them giving up major league talent, and I’m not sold they give up top minor league talent.

If they give up one of their top chips (my preferred 4 would be Ben Revere, David Bromberg, Tyler Robertson, and Aaron Hicks in that order), I’d be open to a deal. I’m not as enthused about the rest (Danny Valencia – not a huge fan, Wilson Ramos – isn’t that much better than Welington Castillo, Rene Tosoni – not sold on the power improvement). There are combinations of others that would probably get my interest a tiny bit, but enough to pass on Type A?

I still think the best choice is to hold him and go arbitration. If he accepts, then you try to clear around 10 million to keep him, or you ponder dealing him later, as Harden is moveable at a one year deal. If he leaves, you scoop up the two picks and move on.

Yes, but

the Twins will not part with him.

However, my source has been wrong every single time this season…

But if the plan is to resign Harden...

We’d be better off long-term trading him, since we’re not getting draft picks anyways.

Poloplaya14 - August 31, 2009 reply

You can at least be assured...

…someone from the Twins will be drilled on how to play the game well from a fundemantal standpoint, but I agree, you don’t trade Harden unless it is a fairly compelling offer.

Cubs and Hawks fan - August 31, 2009 reply

I hope those that voted for “The wild card is within reach” were being facetious. Com’on people, we lose a series TO THE NATIONALS. What’s it take to face reality?

If the Twins want Harden, I’d be scared. The Twins are a very smart organization.

dtpollitt - August 31, 2009 reply

It's time to get over the fact that we lost a series to Washington

We have somewhere near 30 games left in the season. Let’s worry about winning the majority of those and trying to get a playoff spot.

the sweeps have to happen this week,,

and a win over the White Sox doesnt count

cozmotaylor123 - August 31, 2009 reply

Why not?

That’d be a one-game sweep.

And this is the problem with our season.

Counting on sweeps and other teams to fail is not a good recipe for success. But here we are. I remain open to a miracle.

Half empty.

And rational.

dtpollitt - August 31, 2009 reply

any team

can beat any team on any day. The season is not over. The wild card is within reach. Don’t give up.

The wild card race will start to change

with teams playing each other. My guess is it will look quite different next Monday. The Giants go to Philly and Atlanta goes to Florida while the Rockies host the Mets. Things are going to change quickly in this race, that’s why yesterday’s loss hurt since the Rockies got beat again.

I think we must keep Harden after the way Z pitched yesterday. The Gorz can take one spot but not two. Z just didn’t look right to me yesterday.

Let’s see what happens!

mrcubsfan - August 31, 2009 reply

Don't forget

Hendry’s record in these end-of-season bailouts isn’t very good. Last one I recall was a deal involving a reasonably valuable Maddux and returned an equally un-valuable Cesar Izturis. Unless any presumed deal is for frontline prospects that have little to no chance at being considered marginal prospects, I don’t deal Harden to the Twins. The likelihood of that I believe to be pretty slim.

krummy12 - August 31, 2009 reply

Not really comparable

With Maddux, who had full NT protection, Hendry let him go to a team he wanted play for in the playoff chase. That was an “honorable” thing to do for an iconic player. There is no way the Dodgers would have given up much more than Izturis.

Whatever anyone thinks about Hendry, in balance his trades have been FAR more helpful to the Cubs than not.

Apples and Oranges

LIke you have suggested, there are different types of trades. Hendry has proven adept at acquiring established veterans at the cost of unproven prospects. That isn’t debatable. What is debatable is the converse…his ability to acquire difference-making prospects at the cost of established veterans. Including the Maddux deal in that…sure he did him a favor but not to the deteriment of the ball club, and more recently the DeRosa deal, I think the jury is still out on whether a deal such as this will help the club in the future. If it were me, I offer him arbitration and take a shot with Wilken in the draft.

krummy12 - August 31, 2009 reply

The Draft

On that I fully agree. If the Cubs play their cards right, they should have two prospects (assuming Harden doesn’t resign), who, at the very least could be flipped for the the “next Harden” at the 2011 trading deadline.

All along I have doubted a trade would happen just because I doubt the Twins to give up enough talent to exceed the value of two draft picks.

Apples and Apples

Maddux was a type A free agent as well.

The cubs would have gotten 2 high picks for him when he signed the 2 year deal in San Diego.

Unfortunately Wood and Dempster should have brought picks back as well.

Hendry needs to be less “Buddy” and more shrewd businessman in these type of matters.

aaronb - August 31, 2009 reply

I hate to sound like a broken record

but the Maddux deal was unique. Hendry OWED it to Maddux to let him go. Dodgers had used up most of their decent prospects on an earlier deal and Izzy seemed ok at the time but basically Hendry was in little position to bargain so you should not use this as an example of his deadline deals.

Doggie Stalker - August 31, 2009 reply

I don't think the Cubs have much of a chance to make the playoffs

But given the fact that keeping Harden and offering him arbitration means draft picks — as opposed to a couple Minnesota minor league plyaers — I wouldn’t trade him.

There are a couple of good reasons to keep Harden

He might be valuable in 2010.

It might be better to go with the draft picks rather than deal with the Twins, who are smarter than us.

But the wild card is not a reason to keep Harden.

If the team makes a run, terrific, but you do not risk 2010 for it.

Worf - August 31, 2009 reply

I would say

keep him and offer him arb in the offseason. If he walks we get 2 extra picks. If he accepts, I wouldn’t have any problem paying him 10 mill or so for one year.

CalCalender - August 31, 2009 reply

Agreed.

Cubs and Hawks fan - August 31, 2009 reply

Keep him..I also think we should resign him

We still have a chance at the Wild Card. Harden is a strikeout pitcher. He’s a proven player. I’d rather keep him then trade him for prospects that may never reach the bigs.

Interestingly enough...

…the poll is tied 69-69 right now.

Everything I’ve read indicates a trade of Harden to the Twins is highly unlikely. I’m going to guess it will not go down.

Honestly, I’m more curious about the Heilman thing. Ideally, I’d like to see Hendry get something from the Giants. Aaron did have a decent two inning outing vs. the Mets – though I seem to recall at least a couple of his pitches were hit very hard and deep. He also has surrendered only one run in his last five appearances.

So it would be nice if Jimbo could push for some kinda face-saving return. If Sabean won’t budge, just let Heilman go.

I think that's exactly what will happen with Heilman.

I doubt it.

I don’t see Heilman being dealt. He doesn’t have enough value to command much of anything in return and he isn’t expensive enough to really cost the Cubs anything to keep him. Also, with rosters expanding tomorrow, his roster spot doesn’t cost anything either.

Yeah, that's true.

I’d still say cut ties sooner rather than later. I’m tired of seeing his sad sack eyes on the mound.

But the stirrups look good.

Someone else will have to pick up that slack if Heilman goes.

i don't think heilman is going to the giants

he has allowed no runs in 17 of his last 25 appearances. his walks are down. his era is down. his whip is down.

wouldn't that be

WHY he’s going to the Giants?

Had the Cubs lost at least 2 of 3 this weekend

I’d say trade Harden. But right now, things might work out for the team.

They play the NL Central and a lot. And one thing that has been consistent ALL YEAR is that the Cubs have dominated within their division.

The other teams chasing the Wildcard play each other in atleast 2 series and they also play their first place counterparts where the races are much tighter.

one note to add on the WC

we are only out 4 games in the loss column.

This is a tough one

Personally I don’t want to see the Cubs re-sign Harden because he will command big money and I would rather see Lilly extended. I’ve read about possible $60 million contract for him this offseason. As for the trade, if Hendry can get the prospects he wants I say make the deal. If not, retain him and offer him arbitration to get the two compensation picks, very similar to how the Red Sox gave built up their farm system.

TheCubsGuy - August 31, 2009 via mobile reply

Well for the record

put me down on not extending Lilly. It looks like this contract will cover the best years of Lilly’s career. Hendry knew to move on from Matt Clement. I think it’ll be time to move on from Lilly, too.

Heck

I’m not totally against trading Lilly this offseason … if it leads to building a stronger club for 2010. I find it a bit hard to buy that happening (that moving Lilly can improve the 2010 club), but I’m not against it. Due to his past experience, recent performance, remaining contract, he could net a quality return.

Can't disagree

But it has to be a damn good trade though.

$60 million

Harden isn’t going to command $60 million in the offseason….unless New York and Boston get into a bidding war. The free agent numbers in the offseason are going to be down even more than they were in 2009.

krummy12 - August 31, 2009 reply

Why wouldn't Harden get

3-4 years between $15-$20M, total contract between $45M and $80M?

Even a down year, someone will give him 3 years at near 20 per or at worst 4 years at 15 per.

Not in this economy, and with his injury history.

I certainly don't think he's worth it, but his performances

have others viewing him elite. He’s been healthy this year.

I expect he will get paid.

I think a lot of free agents this offseason...

… are going to be stunned by the # of years and dollars in contract offers.

I repeat, this economy is going to start affecting baseball.

may be true

but i’m sure there will also be teams out there that will gamble that the economy will improve and take the opportunity to pay less for players whose (who’s?) value would increase in a lesser economy. the white sox have already gone down this road a bit by trading for peavy and taking on alex rios’ contract. so yes, teams might not be willing to go with long contracts and values might be down, but potentially dominant starting pitchers like rich harden will still get multi-year offers, they just might be for $12 mil per instead of $15+.

circuitclout - August 31, 2009 reply

No way

That would be considerably more than the 4 yr 52mil that Dempster got.

I pity the team that does that

(I understand Jim Hendry might do that)

nji232 - August 31, 2009 reply

I wouldn't discount the possibility...

… of Harden taking a bit less to stay with Chicago. He’s been openly impressed with the training staff and their ability to keep him healthy. Long term, his best investment decision would be keeping his best weapon, his arm, healthy.

If I trusted the organizations ability to spin supplemental picks

into gold through scouting and development, I’d vote to keep Harden and make a run.

As I doubt there is any liklihood in the Cubs and Harden reaching agreement on a contract or Rich accepting arbitration, and if the Twins are offering real value, the Cubs need young talent and should make the move.

I want to keep him and sign him.

I’ve been told by some die-hard Twins fans that they’re low on prospects right now, and the 3 they have, they won’t part with. If we’re not getting something great in return, I keep Rich and hope to sign him for a hometown discount.

I think Lilly and Harden, then Wells, are the pitchers we should plan around. If we really want to rebuild, trade Big Z in the off-season. I think someone like NY or Boston would take a chance on Z and we can use some of that $ towards Harden.

smash! - August 31, 2009 reply

A good can of worms...

…trading Z. Wouldn’t the Cubs be forced to eat that contract?

Yes, the Twins system is not as plentiful as it used to be. But if I’m not mistaken, giving up Harden would net two draft picks—players who are not in their system yet.

There is one team that would probably take Z's contract.

The Mets.

I think

the Mets have some financial problems. Now, they could clear some contracts this offseason, but as of now, I think they need to cut back a bit. At least, some recent reports/rumors are indicating that might happen.

Cubs and Hawks fan - August 31, 2009 reply

That was before their owner got screwed out of all his money

They have money now…not.

nji232 - August 31, 2009 reply

I thought we could only get 2 high draft picks after the season by offering him arbitration?

smash! - August 31, 2009 reply

I don't want to give up Z just yet.

NO SURRENDER MONKEYS!

the wild-card is within reach! The season is not. over.

The Surrender Monkey: The Rally Monkey's Goth Kid Brother

Sorry Winston...

we shall fight in the bleachers,
we shall fight on the upper decks,
we shall fight on the bases and in the fields,
we shall fight on the mounds;
we shall never surrender

I listened to you once

and then they lost two of three to a team that can’t even spell its own name.

Worf - August 31, 2009 reply

whatever

we’re still in contention. That’s what matters. We kick the crap out of Houston, starting today.

But what will i DO with myself for the rest of the season...

… if i can’t lament the Cubs? Woe is me.

hope for them

to win? :D

Oh, no.

That’d be redic.

I hear Cutler will ease these wounds of yours.

SUPER BEARS! SUPER BOWL!

digitalbenjamin - August 31, 2009 reply

As a Cubs/Bears fan living in the Denver area....

I so enjoyed last night, particularly the 2nd Quarter.

Cubfansince1957 - August 31, 2009 reply

Drew Brees, G-Dub...

…and the Saints would like to have a word with you about that.

I believe the Twins will have a large payroll next two seasons

The new stadium opens up next April. They need to field a respectable team. Their greatest need is pitching and a real 2B. Harden fits the bill. When he needs to go to the DL, they have slightly-above-average pitching waiting in the wings.

I think if the agents and the other buzzards flying above right now scram, it can be done.

What? No Aaron Heilman watch? ;)

JB 23 - August 31, 2009 reply

I believe brian custer is holding a candlelit vigil at his house.

::shudders::

LMAO

...

hee

sue369 - August 31, 2009 reply

FYI

Twins fans are discussing this here.

Thanks for posting this link at Twinkie Town.

You're welcome

And if you thought we were a pessimistic and crazy bunch, just take a gander at their Fanposts…

It's all those summers where the roof kept them out of the sunlight.

I don't want to trade Harden for marginal prospects

You aren’t getting a major league player for him right now, and certainly are not touching their top prospects for a one month rental (unless the twins are dumb).

While I don’t think there is a chance in hell the Cubs win the WC, trading Harden sort of waves the white flag and Hendry might not want to do that.

nji232 - August 31, 2009 reply

I have no idea what to think...

I want to say deal him, but I doubt that will happen anyway, and even if it did I don’t think we’ll get anyone worthwhile. On the flip side of the coin, I worry about who the Cubs would pick up in the draft. The latter of the two options is the more likely to happen, but I still don’t know which way to lean.

If he does get traded

It would be interested to see how out-spoken he will be about the clubhouse? Maybe this will be the only real insite we could get on if there is team chemistry and that sort of thing.

I doubt you'd hear anything.

Players don’t do that.

They do in subtle ways

He’ll say how his team has more chemistry, etc without specifically mentioning names.

True

He’s usually tight-lipped about saying anything personal/controversial, but he did make a few pointed comments about the A’s at one time (about how they handled his injuries), so it could happen.

Twins haven’t asked for Harden’s medical records; trade unlikely
As of a few minutes ago.

I pray he stays with CHC, because I want to go see him pitch @NYM this weekend… also, I’d hate to follow him to another new club, only to have to learn yet ANOTHER in the spring.

SCHMIFTY!

where ya been?

Too busy for any SB Nation blogs this summer :( Sad :(

Wish I could still do the K counts!
Hope I don’t have to come up with yet another picture for that soon… stupid trades.

We've continued them in your honor

Clutch16 - August 31, 2009 via mobile reply

Aww! That's awesome! :)

When is he scheduled to pitch this weekend?

I’m going to Sunday’s game but I love seeing Harden pitch. I’d go to another game over the weekend to see him play.

If he throws today as scheduled...

… he’d pitch on Saturday in NYC.

Yes, it should be Saturday

But I’m always afraid he’ll get scratched at the last minute… (did it to me last year!) so I haven’t bought tix yet.

No need to scratch him now...

…with a glimmer of hope yet in the Wild Card, I pitch Harden as much as I possibly can.

What do they have to lose?

Draft position.

Thanks!

That means I can potentially see Z, Harden and Wells pitch in NY.

Thank god I can find cheap tickets in NY with the way Mets have played.

Yeah exactly!

I should be able to get very close for about $100/seat…. earlier this season, those seats would’ve run me more like $200-300

$100?

I’d wait. Those seats will probably be way cheaper by the weekend.

I definitely am waiting, due to my fear of him being scratched.

Thanks for the tip, Al

Chris Dobbertean - August 31, 2009 via mobile reply

I got nice seats for $45 each for Sunday

That’s when they went on sale. You know, when I figured Mets would be fighting in the division as well as Cubs. Now those seats can be had for $18 on stubhub.

I’m probably going to get cheapies for Saturday if I go though.

Z and Harden

Time to figure something out —

Cubs put Harden on waivers — some club claims him and they try to work out a deal.

Z has been nothing short of disappointing all season. There have been an awful lot of games where we just sit back and wait for an inning like the one in today’s game. Just take a look at the season and you will see that this has happened way too often.

His numbers have risen — in the wrong direction over the past three years. He has not only failed to improve but has declined each year.

If you look at Dempster’s numbers and compare them to past seasons, he has dropped off as well.

Z is not a #1 starter. Maybe for another team but until now, he has not shown the consistency required of a #1. Sure there are times when he shows signs of being that #1 guy but not often enough for a true #1.

I fully understand the past history of Harden and his physical problems. But Z has surpassed him this year. His continued meltdowns and physical problems cannot be ignored. Then the lack of a good daily routine that might improve his skills is brought up by Z himself. For crying out loud man, you are getting $18 mill a year and are not doing what it takes to keep your body and arm in shape. So much for pride and leadership.

In my mind, it is absolutely ridiculous to throw Harden out for a couple of prospects. Prospects are what they are – crap shots for the future.

And then I read somewhere that the Cubs are looking at a couple of arms in return. Isn’t that what we got for DeRosa? Are the prospects at AAA and AA that bad that we want to take Twins prospects. Hey the Twins need arms — what kind would they want to give considering their own pitching problems.

The Cubs need bats — not arms — at this point. The system is almost totally void of good and I mean good prospects at AAA, AA, and high A. The only marginal guy at any of those levels is Colvin and he really has not shown a lot so far. I would even go as far to say that Hendry would include him in a trade that would involve the Cubs giving up prospects.

Forget the waiver stuff. Pull Harden off the wire and re-sign him this winter.

Huge contract withstanding, I would consider offers for Z or even Dempster over the winter. There are teams that would take either one at the price. The Cubs need to take one that would give them a high quality second baseman and an outfielder who could lead off and hit for a decent average.

Pitching is always a premium. Why else would anyong offer to take Heilman off our hands?

To me, Z and Dempster offer no less hope for the future than Harden and would bring a lot more in return than a couple of prospects.

ceegeewow - August 31, 2009 reply

Perfect post IMO-

completely agree.

smash! - August 31, 2009 reply

Z and Dempster are untradeable

Too expensive AND they’d have to approve the deals.

We have a lot of that...

…on the Cubs.

A Small Correction

When I mentioned the void of prospects, I was referring to OFs only.

The Cubs have some numbers in the infield. One in particular is Starlin Castro. IMHO this guy is the goods and will be the Cubs staring SS by 2011. Makes good contact, hits to all fields, has great range, and a terrific arm.

ceegeewow - August 31, 2009 reply

deletes reply

:)

Archie - August 31, 2009 reply

Trades

I don’t understand why we’re all talking about trades. The only reason deals are being discussed is because the Cubs are forced to. All the difference-making players have already been traded. They went to the Cardinals. If none of the Cub players had been claimed off waivers, we would have no prospective deals to talk about. Just like the entire 2009 season. Really not much to talk about. I can only picture a smoke-filled room with the new owners agonizing over 2010 with a pile of empty pizza boxes in one corner and a pile of empty beer cans in another, sweat pouring down their faces and cigar smoke stinging their eyes as they try to figure out what the hell is “chemistry”, why is it necessary at this level , and where do you buy it and how much does it cost?

racertom - August 31, 2009 reply

lol

digitalbenjamin - August 31, 2009 reply

awesome

Gorzellany

I know that this wouldn’t be a deal killer. But, if Hendry really expected to Trade Harden before his start today, it seems likely he would have had Lou avoid using Gorzellany yesterday.

What if Harden accepts arbitration?

What kind of money are we talking about?

Curtain Jerker - August 31, 2009 reply

considering his salary this year

I’m guessing 10 mil or so. Shouldn’t be that much higher.

Honestly, 10 million for Harden seems about right.

And if the Cubs training staff can keep him together, Harden would be worth keeping for $10 million, IMO.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2197

Just remember.....TNSTAAPP!!!

As the Baseball Prospectus gang is wont to point out, there is no such thing as a Pitching Prospect:

A good mantra to keep in mind when it comes to considering swapping a relatively proven, though injury prone major league pitcher like Harden for a grab bag of unproven prospects.

perseman - August 31, 2009 reply

Nice link

Thanks

vonde6 - August 31, 2009 reply

CUBS GARBAGE

WHY WOULD ANY TEAM WANT BROKEN DOWN GARBAGE ANYWAY?

slapshot53 - August 31, 2009 reply

I know Eric Hanna. I have worked with Eric Hanna.

You, sir, are no Eric Hanna.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4434155

keep him but play-offs are just a dream. then next year pay him what he’s worth. he’s the best pitcher on the team right now and he shouldn’t be given up on.

Rainman9856 - August 31, 2009 reply

Watch is over....

NebraskaCubsFan - August 31, 2009 reply

And this thread suddenly becomes irrelevant.

Just beat me too it.

Why in the world is Aaron Heilman still a Cub? FML. This is BS Hendry.

cubswynn - August 31, 2009 reply

Hendry just likes old school baseball

Just wants to keep somebody who looks like a baseball player with the stirups (though he only pitches like one every blue moon). Maybe if we get Big Z to where the true Cubs pinstripes he could play like an “ace” IMO. I mean really why don’t they make players look like the Cubs and play with the old pinstripes….would you ever see the Yankees pitchers not play in their’s???

NebraskaCubsFan - August 31, 2009 reply

Apparently

The Giants’ offer of a few batting practice baseballs and a warm bucket of spit wasn’t good enough.

salparadise23 - August 31, 2009 reply

Why is right!

Just release his worthless ass! Now this just opens the door for nitwit domerlovin Hendry to bring him back next year. What a joke.

“domerlovin”?

Notre Dame lovin

That's what I am scared of.

He needs to be saved from himself

Hendry probably wanted something for Heilman

I can’t blame him. The Giants were interested, but Hendry probably wanted more than they were willing to offer. Someone needs to remind him that any deal for Heilman is a good one.

exactly

just the salary coming off the books the rest of the season was worth it. He is the same as Miles, innings that should be given to the young pitchers are wasted on Heilman. Just the same with AB’s for Miles.

Heilman at least contributes

A 17 OPS+ for Aaron Miles just confirms what you see on the field. Miles doesn’t produce and I think he’s one of the major reasons this team hasn’t done well this season.

Heilman contributes garbage

Heilman can surprise you sometimes

I think that’s the reason the Giants were interested in seeing what he could do to help their bullpen. He has a 100 ERA+, which isn’t great, but passable. His WHIP is down from last year and so is his ERA and H/9. I’ve seen him throw scoreless outings, but crack like an egg with inherited runners. The pitching staff is great in SF, so they probably figured they could do something with him. Bob Howry has worked out well over there, so they apparently know what they’re doing.

Don't bother debating with him.

His idea of insight is calling somebody garbage and then disappearing if you try to dissuade them with facts.

STFU

Perfect!

Ignore Ace’s point on Heilman (a good one, full of insight), choose to not take the chance i’d given you to prove me wrong, and further entrench yourself as a bile-spewing waste of a poster.

Well played, Itchy.

And because i don’t generally like to post only negative things, it should be noted that i’m lunching on a Dole Fruit Parfait (Peaches and Creme flavor), and its wonderful. Everyone should try them!

I only used one last post on him

I’m done arguing with him.

I didn't ignore anything, ass-clown,

I have a job and hadn’t gotten back in here and didn’t even realize anyone even replied. It’s none of your business anyway.

He did not resort

to name calling. Why is it you feel the need to do so?

sue369 - August 31, 2009 reply

Because Not Bruce is his mentor?

I'm still salty about all the nasty things you said to me...

… during the “Bradley vs Racists in the bleachers” fanpost debate that got deleted, otherwise i’d ignore you much like i do most morons.

Its frustrating to see a perfectly good, well reasoned post like Ace’s get diminished by some uninformed loser who is unwilling to do any reasoning beyond “he’s garbage”. It diminishes what Ace and others like him do, which is take the time to think and put well informed posts up here.

I, personally, come here for the will informed posters, not some dude who wants to let us all know who he thinks is “garbage”. Give it a rest.

Howry hasn't worked out well

He’s lost 6 games as a middlin middle reliever

Um?

Have you looked at something besides his W-L? His ERA+ is 120. Considering he had an 84 ERA+ last year, that should tell you something. Then again, I’m not looking at his W-L record, which was 7-5 last season. I’ll take his 3.61 ERA this year over the 5.35 ERA he gave us last year.

I'm just looking at the game winner HRs he's given up

His ERA is much better this year.

So is his HR/9

2008: 1.7
2009: 0.9

Yes, he can surprise you sometimes.

But that usually is when he comes in a low pressure situation. He seems to save his worst for when we really need him to come through and that makes his failures stick in our minds much more vividly than his successes.

Because the Giants took Brad Penny?

They’ll probably rotate him and Wilson between set-up guy and closer. If I’m the Giants, I’d prefer Hoffman, but it doesn’t seem like the Brew Crew was willing to let him go.

In my opinion, the Giants claimed a bunch of guys they thought they could get, and opted to see who would give them the best dead, i.e., who wouldn’t cost their system too much.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Are they keeping Heilman around

so they can beat him with pillowcases full of bars of soap? I’m not saying that’s what I want to happen to the guy, but geez, why else is this guy around.

End of the season, throw a dude under the bus press conference…

Lou – “Well…ah…we just didn’t execute…We’ve got guys who play baseball and ah…they just didn’t play well enough, guys like Heilman…y’know…what do you want me to do? We have to play the guys we have and some of them didn’t play hard enough.”

Keeping Harden is a sign they are going for it

Keeping Heilman is a sign they have no freaking clue

Worf - August 31, 2009 reply

Eh... Heilman doesn't matter...

With the rosters expanding, he’s not wasting a spot at this point. And he’s not terribly expensive the rest of the way. Apparently the Giants weren’t willing to offer anything of value.

So now he’ll just be an extra arm available in the pen if needed.

I bet Lou still puts him into close games, and I bet Miles get at least 5 more starts the rest of the way.

Possible on the first, I'd say doubtful on the second...

With Blanco coming back, I don’t see Miles getting many starts.

I'm with SWL

I’d even wager something on Heilman and Miles getting more playing time than they should actually get.

Over/under on

1) Miles PH ABs
and
2) # of times Miles is the 1st PH used in a game

El Borto - August 31, 2009 reply

I just hope Lou doesn't think Miles

will exact revenge on the Cardinals and play him in all three games.

mrcubsfan - August 31, 2009 reply

So...

… more than zero?

define "should"

should = any? :P

Should definitely = any

Miles probably isn't going to see AB's until the Cubs are mathematically eliminated

Miles is done after this season anyway. This team plays worse with him on the active roster. The guy has a 17 OPS+ for crying out loud. For the old school folks, he’s batting below .200. What more do you need to keep him off the field?

Shouldn't see playing time ever again for the Cubs.

Why prolong the misery, release him now.

Cheaper to release him in the offseason

Let him ride the pine until the end of the season and if the Cubs win the Wild Card, just don’t include him on the playoff roster. Rosters expand tomorrow, so pinch hit options won’t be as limited.

Might also be able to trade him and minimize the cost a bit

Even if trading him (and paying some of his contract) is for a low-level prospect.

Given my luck

He’ll end up playing and get at least 2 ABs on Wednesday. I’ll put away a couple beers to try to forget that.

I agree with SC here.

There is long-term negotiating value in walking away from a deal that doesn’t give you enough in return. Heilman is fine as a mop-up man in the ‘pen, so now’s as good a time as any to practice walking away.

Bingo.

I would’ve liked to see Heilman go for aesthetic reasons, but he might as well stick around and finish out his contract. It’s a big “Whatever!” at this point.

hmm

I don’t know if we should keep Harden or not… I just wanted to say that it’s hard for me to believe that there are 300 people on Earth that think that this year’s edition of the Cubs still have a shot at the playoffs. Don’t give me the strength (weakness?) of schedule argument either… we are flat out terrible, so that doesn’t matter.

grogg_2434 - August 31, 2009 reply

ok

see you next year.

No

A team that’s at least .500 isn’t “flat-out terrible.”

In this division it is

In any division

it isn’t. Sorry.

There is a very real possibility that only the Cards

will finish over .500 in the division. That makes this division worse. .

A .500 record with this team may be good enough for you but not for most fans.

Reading comprehension is your friend

I didn’t say it was “good enough.” I said a team that’s at least .500 isn’t :“flat-out terrible.” Which is true.

Must be hard to walk around with that dunce cap on your head all day.

Funny stuff

I have been reading you make excuses for this team for some time. Its very impressive. The team sucks and is a massive disaster from the front office down. If they were in a good division it would have been over long ago. But you keep holding out hope!

Keep on

reading stuff that isn’t there. Do you enjoy being bitter and angry all day?

I am being realistic

You live in la la land…..

It isn't worth

arguing with someone whose IQ appears to be barely above room temperature.

As posters go, I’d say you’re “flat-out terrible.”

I could care less

From your posts you would not be able to keep up in a real conversation about the Cubs. I did enjoy laughing at your fan post the other day. Lots of weak stuff. But I give you credit for trying…….

how do you contend

for the wild card as a disaster?

When you are in 5th place

in the Wild Card Standings heading into September, contend is very much a relative term.

azjazzman - August 31, 2009 reply

we're only

four games back in the loss column.

Taking into account our payroll, it is.

derv - August 31, 2009 reply

Not really

Any team that’s at least .500 is at worst mediocre. “Flat-out terrible” is reserved for the likes of the Nationals and Pirates.

It was expected that they would lose

It is worse when they should win and do not.

And if you pay attention to baseball at all

you know teams underachieve all the time. And overachieve, too.

I, and everyone I think, am pretty embarassed by...

…our 8 figure outfield.

derv - August 31, 2009 reply

Not everyone.....

not really

Soriano is injured. Dome has done pretty well all year, and Bradley is one of the hottest hitters in baseball right now.

Our outfield

is pretty terrible relative to what each of the regulars are making.

I disagree.

Dome and Bradley make market level money for some pretty good production. We’ll have to see if Soriano can recover.

$12 million for a platoon CF?

I think

Dome plays full time next year.

what about this year?

Dome is not worth $12 million. He’s just not.

Now, that said, he’s played much better this year than last and I hope for continued improvement.

You do realize

Fukudome actually took LESS money to sign with the Cubs, right?

that's not really the point

Do YOU think he’s worth $12 million per?

Apparently

That’s what he’s worth, because that was the market price — or actually less than the market price.

What I think is irrelevant. I think ALL baseball players are overpaid. But that’s the price of poker these days.

Jim Hendry's job ...

is to assess the market and sign players, balancing the market demand with talent evaluation. Based on that, I bet Hendry is disappointed with Kosuke’s production over the past two years.

Does that make Kosuke a bad player? Of course not! But is he overpaid (in relation to the rest of the baseball market) — yes.

And don’t use the everybody-is-overpaid argument. That’s another debate entirely.

How can you say

Hendry overpaid for Fukudome when most other teams were willing to pay him even MORE than what the Cubs paid him?

Bruce...

…he is basing it on his production, not what other teams were willing to pay two years ago, there is a difference.

If you are running a team, you wouldn’t take any solace in the fact other teams were willing to pay the same, if you have guys who simply aren’t producing the way they are getting paid.

You pay a player...

… based on what you think he might be worth in the future, and then you hope he lives up to it. That is how baseball works.

Do YOU think the team would be better without him?

Yes, I do

The Cubs could have made wiser choices. The money that went to Fukudome could been enough to get Orlando Hudsom ($3.38 million), Abreu (around $5 million) and nearly enough to keep DeRosa ($5.5 million).

Yes — I know that Fukudome was signed two years ago. But he’s NOT WORTH $12 million.

And if my aunt had a penis

she’d be my uncle.

What the hell kind of comparison is that? Those guys weren’t available before the 2008 season.

And she'd be shocked as hell when she discovered it

And there goes

lemonade all over my computer screen … :P

And if Hendry hadn't signed Kosuke

He would have (possibly) had the money to spend later — assuming he didn’t spend it badly someplace else.

and if he hadn't traded DeRosa, and if Ramirez hadn't gotten hurt...

and Bradley had been able to hit baseballs from the left side in the first half, and Cedeno had a brain and could hit .280, and Reed Johnson was Adam Lind…..

what's wrong with questioning Hendry's decisions?

nothing, but we question this decision last year....

over and over again.

Agree...

…and all GM’s will have guys on the payroll who are overpaid compared to their production, but the trick is not having too many, because you end up with little production and a lot of dough out the door.

It’s all ROI, and the best way to look at it is how many wins a particular team gets compared to how much money they spend. Over time, thats not a bad way to see how good a club has been at player selection.

You are aware that isn't how the game works, though?

The Cubs could have made wiser choices.

Well, yeah. But like i said… you don’t decide what they are worth at the END of the contract, you decide at the beginning. If you are pissy over what a guy makes, you don’t blame him, you blame Hendry, or MLB, or agents, or whoever.

right ...

and it’s Hendry’s job to make the right judgments so his gambles pay off. Right now, Kosuke is OVERPAID.

And I have been blaming Hendry. Look at the headline above the comment YOU responded to!

Simple solution...

…A GM needs to be good at; Due Dilligence, and judgement. If your weak in these areas, you end up with a lot of guys making more dough than their numbers show.

I don't think anyone on the planet earth is worth $12 million to play baseball.

Except her.

Yowza

Who is that?

Somebody you won't meet in person

And sadly, neither will I.

Alyssa Milano.

daver - September 1, 2009 reply

No.

at least not to play baseball.

this year is almost over...and we can't get a rebate.

that's not the point either

The Cubs’ outfield production is bad relative to what we’re paying. End of point.

This year.

What did I say above?

what about this year?

Dome is not worth $12 million. He’s just not.

Now, that said, he’s played much better this year than last and I hope for continued improvement.

From my post above.

I get your point...

but you’re trying to steer a train. There is nothing you can do about it.

I don't understand your point

What are you trying to say here?

That complaining about the color of the sky doesn't do anything.

Hendry had no control over the sky being blue

He HAD control over the Fukudome signing. That’s the difference.

and since we don't have a time machine....

what do you propose we do now?

I'd like to get in the time machine

and see elgato high-fiving all his Cubs-fan buddies after he heard the Cubs had signed Fukudome.

you know

a while back, you and I agreed not to respond to each other’s posts. What say we try that again.

It's kind of like a car wreck

You want to ignore it when you’re driving past, but you just can’t.

you take smugness to new heights

I for one, appreciate your new found respect for Not Bruce.

obviously we haven't met

why the hell are people arguing

against the signing of one of the few productive members of this team?

If I said anything about Bradley or Soriano ...

I’d be bashed for beating a dead horse, wouldn’t I?

That really depends on what you said and how you phrased it.

no ...

there are posters here who jump on anything critical — other than bashing Miles.

and a rational person can easily ignore those people

if they have a valid criticism.

so I'm not rational?

can you easily ignore those people

if you have a valid criticism?

can you easily ignore me ...

if think my comments are invalid?

You didn’t.

i wan't jumping on you for your citicism of a player...

I was commenting on the fruitlessness of your complaint. I agree that our entire outfield has under performed relative to their salaries.

I get what he's saying...

… he’s saying “our outfield is overpaid for their production”. I get that.

But 1.) Dome is a weird target for that rage, considering everything and 2.) fans complaining about player salary (particularly for their team overpaying) is sort of silly, as that money doesn’t come out of their pocket and we’d much rather have a team spending than a team not.

'rage'?

Now, that’s just unfair. I’m not calling him names — and I’ve said he’s improved.

Please rephrase.

Fair enough... i get what you are saying...

… but 1.) Dome is a weird target for that attention, considering everything and 2.) fans complaining about player salary (particularly for their team overpaying) is sort of silly, as that money doesn’t come out of their pocket and we’d much rather have a team spending than a team not.

As I just said above ...

Trashing Bradley is old hat — and he’s playing a lot better. Soriano might be hurt (so I’m reserving some judgment).

That’s why Fukudome’s contract makes me pause. Good enough reasoning?

Since the real story of Sori's injury has been discovered...

I put most of the blame for his awful 2009 on Lou and the training staff.

Hendry has signed a lot of contracts

that overpay players for several years. But Lou’s decision making has been pretty bad …

It's inexcusable that he was run out there..

everyday while his knee wasn’t right.

agreed

Pause, sure...

… but pause and then move on. You are a fan of a major market team spending $130+ million on player payroll. The team has problems, but Dome hasn’t been one of them, and his contract certainly isn’t what’s keeping this team from its goals.

I don't see any reason

why I can’t bring up the fact that Kosuke is overpaid without being roasted. He IS overpaid — even if he’s not the biggest problem on the team.

If he (or an equivalent player) was earning, say $6 million, the Cubs might not have made some of the bad moves they made — trading Marquis for nothing, trading DeRo — that occurred last offseason.

Disagree? Really?

I don't disagree that its possible...

… i just wish everyone would see the futility of looking at things that way.

If i hadn’t spent all my money on beer in college, i could use it to put the down payment on a pretty sweet condo now. But i can’t go back and do that. So i live with the fun i had and the apartment i live in now.

If the cubs hadn’t signed Dome, we could have done infinite other things with the money… including not spend it. Be happy he’s here and producing and causing no trouble.

how should we look at things?

We’re talking about decisions we have no control of anyway. I am happy that Dome’s doing better. But Hendry overpaid — and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying it. It’s not like there will be a negative effect. My comment won’t hurt the Cubs.

But dome isn't even the most overpaid on this team!

I guess what SWL and I are trying to understand is what is the point of your complaint? Dome doesn’t suck, he’s done quite well of late actually. What he’s paid doesn’t affect you, and waxing poetic about what could have been done with that cool twelve million is pointless.

If you are trying to make a point, i don’t understand it.

I've commented on other overpaid players

Just not in this thread.

My point is that Fukudome is an example of Hendry’s overspending — a practice that’s going to make tinkering with this team in the offseason pretty difficult.

It's as if

you can’t stand Hendry and want to nitpick him to death. “Look! Jim doesn’t use a salad fork properly! What a buffoon!”

Again: ALL baseball players are overpaid, IMHO. I can’t see how you can say how Fukudome is overpaid when he was signed for LESS money than he would have gotten elsewhere.

Perhaps the point is “Who needs Fukudome when we could have had St. DeRo instead”?

argh ...

Yes, NBF … I have an irrational dislike of Jim Hendry. That’s it. There’s nothing else to this.

And, yes, we shouldn’t debate one point (Fukudome being overpaid) because you think, fundamentally, there’s a larger problem (baseball players are overpaid).

And yes, NBF, all I’ve done on this site is pine for DeRo.

Actually, the reverse is true — I’ve pointed out how the Cubs could have kept DeRo and signed Bradley if not for some other bone-headed moves.

What’s wrong with pointing out flaws with the Cubs? It’s not like they’ve played well enough to where the criticism isn’t valid.

didn't finish my DeRo point ...

DeRo is a valuable player that the Cubs didn’t adequately replace. Would he have changed our fortunes this year by himself — no.

Nothing is wrong

at all. If they’re really flaws.

If it’s nitpicky crap that is endemic to every baseball franchise and really doesn’t make that much of a difference, then there is a problem.

I’m certainly not the only one questioning your rationale here.

Fukudome is being paid at the market price. Or perhaps a little below it. There are bigger flaws and more people “overpaid” this season on this team than Fukudome.

also ...

criticizing is far from expressing dislike. That’s a with-us-or-against-us mentality if you ask me.

SWL, you have spent plenty of time

complaining about Theriot this season. You’re coming off as hypocritical when you start questioning others for doing the same thing

santoswoodenlegs - September 1, 2009 reply

I complain about Theriot because of where he plays...

not because I wish we could magically make his salary less or his production better. My complaints could end yesterday if Lou would put him at 2nd base. This is different than elgato’s beef.

Disagree...

…I don’t think Dome is playing up to a 12 mil per year player at all. Bradley’s deal goes up a bunch next year, but he has a better chance of producing the pure numbers to justify his contract (the attitude issues are seperate).

Dome is very useful, but he IS overpaid at 12 mil.

Let’s face it folks, there are a lot of overpaid guys on the club right now, and it is made worse with the no-trades on top of it.

There's a difference between terrible and disappointing.

terrible, no
disappointing, yes

digitalbenjamin - August 31, 2009 reply

Thank you

Apparently that distinction is lost on some people.

I'm glad you get off on arguing semantics

GoCubbies34 - August 31, 2009 reply

words have meaning

definitions count.

Words

have meanings, GC34.

The Cubs are not “flat-out terrible.” They are a disappointment.

If we can make the wild card with Harden, we can make the wild card without Harden.

It’s all about the hitting for this team.

Plus, trading Harden let’s us see if Gorzelanny can potentially fill the #5 spot in the rotation next year. I say do it.

cubsforever - August 31, 2009 reply

i guess

time’s up… heilman & heilman are still cubs!

harden & heilman

We didn't want to trade Heilman? Are you F'n Kidding me?

SackMan - August 31, 2009 reply

guess not

too bad. many bitter bcb hearts broken

Hendy must have only wanted to trade him within the division.

LOL!

Who knows?

I guess Hendry didn’t want to upset the chemistry of this awesome ballclub!

lou wants to give heilman

another crack at the starting rotation next spring

"crack" being the operative word there

You win, brian custer.

This time…

Levine reporting on ESPN 1000

that neither Harden or Heilman are going anywhere.

blackhawk24 - August 31, 2009 reply

Good

None of this bothers me too much.

Absolutely the right call to keep Harden. Heilman is irrelevant, with the rosters expanding tomorrow.

I'd dump Heilman just to send a message

And to avoid any chance of him being a Cub in 2010.

I don't think there's much of a chance

Heilman’s coming back.

Plus, maybe Hendry was afraid Heilman would come back to bite them in the rear this season. The Cubs still have four games against the Giants.

Cubs Vs Giants

at AT&T. Cubs have a helluva lot more to worry about than whether Aaron Heliman comes back to bite them. Giants have the best home record in the NL. What the Cubs should worry about is not getting swept.

azjazzman - August 31, 2009 reply

Bite us in the rear?

Have we all been watching the same pitcher? I would have traded him to the team we will face the MOST amount of times down the stretch to see him as many times as possible.

BeltwayCubsFan - August 31, 2009 reply

That series is more than three weeks away

Let’s see how things are going then.

"Plus, maybe Hendry was afraid Heilman would come back to bite them in the rear this season."

Huh? WTF?

cubsnlinux - August 31, 2009 reply

For those of you wallowing in too much self-pity to notice,

Heilman has been pretty decent lately.

umm..so since Heilman was "pretty decent" lately..

Hendry was ‘afraid’ that he would ‘bite them in the rear’ huh?

So are you implying that the cubs offense is really that bad? You really need to get out of your basement once in a while

cubsnlinux - August 31, 2009 reply

That grand slam the other day probably sticks in people

people's minds

Some of you guys

need to put away the blow-up dolls and pay attention to baseball a little.

so, that's what you do when you are not paying 'attention' to baseball?

cubsnlinux - August 31, 2009 reply

You know, it's funny

You see a post by, say, Stone or San Diego Smooth Jazz Man and you know more often than not, it’s going to be good.

Then you see a post by, say, itchy or linux and you know most of the time it’s going to be crap.

I wish baseball were as predictable.

Oh yeah, your posts are so incredibly insightful

That you resort to calling out the posters who go against your kool Aid posts. Enjoy your “date” with the blow up doll tonight.

Her name is Vanessa, and she's better company than you'll ever be.

And she is a very kind lovin' person

Actually, it's Edna

but your point is well taken. :)

IS SHE A CUTIE?

Dame Edna?

Thanks

for spoiling my dinner, eths …

except for giving up that GS to the Nats

That grand slam...

… isn’t a very good example. Heilman inherited three runners in the midst of a Z meltdown (he’d just walked in a run as well), and Heilman promptly struck out a guy (and after the HR, got a ground out to end the inning).

The HR he allowed sucks, sure… but blaming him for the grand slam makes very little sense. The team was already on the ropes at that point, in full meltdown mode after a lackluster return by Z. Heilman had the poor luck to be called upon.

Fact… in that game he pitched .2 innings for 1 hit and 1 run. If that is what is sticking with people from that game (which we lost 15-6), shame on them.

Now, i’m no Heilman fan… but lets at least be fair here.

He threw the pitch that gave up the grand slam right?

I didn’t dream that correct? He, at the very least, gets to share the blame for the Slam.

yes, if you ignore his bad outings

he’s been awesome! Define “lately” Because, if you go back more than a few days, you’re going to find some more poor outings.

as long as he's actually irrelevant

I think those of you who think Heilman won’t be used in the wrong situations the rest of the way, are forgetting that our manager is Lou Pineilla

It would be worth it in the off season to no longer have heilman to deal with.

If he is a big part of 2010’s bullpen, Hendry would have had another awesome winter.

Well, based on the poll results...

…Jim Hendry has, once again, made most Cubs fans unhappy. Not I, however, as I voted for option No. 1.

Do you think they should re-sign him after this season?

I’d rather have the draft picks. Harden is too brittle and is starting to give up a lot of HRs.

Well, relatively speaking, he hasn't been too brittle this season.

Assuming he makes it to the mound tonight, it’ll be his 23rd start of the season. I’ll take 20 to 25 Rich Harden starts for another few years.

I mean, if he’s happy pitching here and the medical staff has found a way to keep him in good shape, why not make him a reasonable offer in arbitration? Should he accept, the Cubs hang on to one of the better pitchers in the National League. (The home runs could be just as much the result of bad luck than anything else.) If he rejects the offer, the Cubs get the draft picks. I think I’d be fine either way.

Once again, facts get in the way of a claim.

Harden is too brittle and is starting to give up a lot of HRs.

He’s started eight times since the ASB and thrown 50 innings — averaging 6.1 per start. In those 50 innings he’s allowed five home runs.

I was referring to the 21 HRs he's given up.

I like the way he throws most of the time but think a guy who can only give you about 150 innings at best is worth a long term contract.

is not worth a long term contract

5 HR in the last 50 innings....

…. isn’t “starting” to give up a lot of HR’s.

You are right, pardon my wording

I was referring to his starting to give up more HRs than in previous years.

That part is true, if you look only at the first half of this year.

But since the ASB, he’s gone back to his previous level.

Maybe he's turned a corner?

Maybe.

Depends on how you define "long term."

3 or 4 years at $15 or so million

seems like too much to me.

sounds about right to me

Lilly got what? Four years at $12 per? Something close to that? Harden is more talented, and if he can stay healthy, (something he’s pretty much done this season) he’s just this side of dominant.

I’d be thrilled to see him in a Cubs uni next season, and for a few seasons after that

that was when he was sucking

TWSS

it is

12 Cubs claimed?

According to Ken Rosenthal there were actually 12 Cubs claimed. I wonder who the other 10 were.

Somewhat surprising none of them are gone if you figure that Soriano, Bradley, Miles as well as possibly Zambrano, Dempster, and Fukudome would all have been awarded to the claiming team to clear payroll.

12 Cubs claimed and we kept all of them?

No way!

That is an interesting, perhaps surprising number...

…and I’m only going to say one thing: If some freakin’ team freakin’ claimed freakin’ Aaron freakin’ Miles, and freakin’ Hendry didn’t freakin’ let freakin’ Miles go, I’m freakin’ gonna freakin’ freakity ffawrdlghalghh….

.....so will I

cooliogirl47 - August 31, 2009 reply

Calm down, Dave.

Who on Earth would have claimed him?

I was just freakin' kiddin'.

I know that.

You looked like you were starting to froth at the keyboard, though.

Aaron Miles gets me all hot and bothered.

Let me rephrase that…

Please do.

Yes, please

now, the thought of Miles playing for someone else gets me all hot and bothered, too, in a good way …

why would you figure them?

it’s much more likely that the 12 included players like

Soto
Marmol
Theriot
Fontenot
Marshall

all of whom are cost controlled.

I can't believe guys like that were waived.

Because if they were, they almost certainly would have been claimed.

I was gonna say...

…some contender would’ve probably tried to get Marmol in the hopes of getting his walks under control. Marshall could’ve probably eaten up some starts for a few teams, too.

don't most teams

try to waive all players at some point, just to see if they sneak through?

TC Cubby - August 31, 2009 reply

so?

I always thought that the point of doing this was to see what you can get. If it’s not good enough, you pull the guy back. It’s not like you HAVE to give the player up when they’re claimed.

yeah, but Al probably thinks we would have heard about it, if any of those guys

had gotten claimed.

there's no way Hendry allows Zambrano, or Dempster go

just to clear salary. Probably not Dome either.

Buzz on the Moon - August 31, 2009 reply

False Dichotomy

I want to keep him because he’s a good pitcher and he can help in the future. Sign him to a multiyear or possibly arbitration if possible. Plus no reason to trade him now, either you get 2 comp picks for him or you trade him for nothing now. What is someone seriously going to pay for 1 month of a good pitcher. That’s what 5, possibly 6 starts? I’ll keep him regardless of wild card position.

Please, Jim, do what you need to resign Harden

He’s only 27, is a strikeout machine, and likes playing in Chicago. Please sign him to a long-term deal.

Pre - August 31, 2009 reply

Just think...

…we could’ve been stuck with Duchscherer out of that whole deal. He’s been out with an injury for the whole season, and won’t pitch at all this year now due to clinical depression.

I’d resign him.

What's with the rash

of players suffering from clinical depression/social anxiety these days? I don’t remember seeing anything like it before.

Another symptom of our "victimfull" society.

Agreed.

If you go tell a doctor you don’t feel right, he’ll diagnose you with something. And probably ask you what meds you want for it.

Gotta get back to work, my adderall just kicked in…

uh

mental illness is real.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

But the threshold for classifying something as a mental illness is and has been falling quite drastically. I wasn’t commenting on Duke’s case, specifically.

Buzz on the Moon - August 31, 2009 reply

Actually no

I don’t know how this started with people, but this overdiagnosis BS really gets me. Most mental health things are prescribed correctly. The threshold has not been falling. Taking an anti-depressant does not mean you have depression or anxiety, it’s just being used to treat symptoms.

Also please bring data when talking about stuff like this because otherwise it sounds disingenuous and slightly nostalgic for the old days when no one was treated and everything was great.

The cynic in me says that the sudden lack of uppers that many players took, may be bringing some people down.

louslovechild - August 31, 2009 reply

Good question.

In Duke’s case, he went through a nasty divorce followed by an even nastier child custody situation, that just might have been further compounded by his injury situation. You’re relying on one to help you overcome the other, and they both blow up in your face. That could definitely set a guy back.

it's just

being called something else now. Before it was the “heebiejeebies”. And you didn’t get DL’d for it, you got cut, or you made up a phantom injury.