Let's start with the good news. Yes, there is some.
I like Lou's adjusted lineup, which is now apparently going to be used vs. RHP. I won't flatter myself by saying that I've been advocating this change for some time and thinking anyone actually listened to me, but I really like Milton Bradley in the #2 spot, with Ryan Theriot dropped to eighth. Bradley had exactly the kind of day you'd like your #2 hitter to have -- a single and two walks and a run scored.
Eventually, this is going to lead to more run scoring and wins, but not last night -- the Cubs lost to a very good Rockies team 6-2, after Carlos Zambrano walked off the field complaining that his back was acting up again. With the loss and the Cardinals' win over the Pirates, the Cubs fell a game out of first place, though still one game up in the loss column over St. Louis
Z's departure forced Sean Marshall into an emergency start. Sometimes those things work out, especially when the other team makes lineup changes as the Rockies did last night after learning they'd be facing a lefthander. Unfortunately, last night wasn't the time for it to work -- Marshall struggled through a 41-pitch first inning, allowing three runs, and we might as well have turned the TV's off then, because the Cub offense couldn't generate anything against Ubaldo Jimenez. This Cub team seems to have trouble against pitchers who have hard sinkers like Jimenez -- Justin Lehr the other night in Cincinnati was another example -- and that does not bode well for tonight's game against former teammate Jason Marquis.
Jimenez did keep giving the Cubs chances -- he walked five -- but the Cubs couldn't take advantage. Derrek Lee came up with two on and nobody out in the first inning and hit into a double play. (In case you're tempted to call him "DP-Lee" again, that's only six for him this year, after a team-record-tying 27 in 2008.) That scored a run, but it also set the tone for the rest of the frustrating game. Lee came up again with two runners on in the third, this time with two out, and nearly hit a three-run homer; that would have given the Cubs the lead. Unfortunately, it died in the depths of the Coors Field outfield and was caught right in front of the 390-foot sign in left-center field by Carlos Gonzalez. That ball would have been well up in the left-center field bleachers at Wrigley.
Jeff Samardzija, in relief of Marshall, didn't do too bad a job; his only mistake was grooving one to Rockies catcher Chris Iannetta, who smacked a two-run homer to make it 5-1 in the 4th. Apart from that, Samardzija's job was to take one for the team and eat up some innings with the bullpen forced to throw the entire game, and he did that, although 73 pitches in four innings is more than you'd like to see. Aaron Heilman allowed the Rockies' final run, but didn't walk anyone. Interestingly enough, Heilman now has eight consecutive appearances without allowing a walk. If you think that means he's turning a corner, I think you'd be wrong; in those eight appearances he's allowed three home runs and five earned runs in seven innings for a 6.43 ERA.
There isn't a whole lot more to say about last night's loss; give some credit to the Rockies, who are currently tied with the Giants for the wild card lead. (The Cubs stand two games out of that lead, if you are keeping track.) All the Cubs can do tonight is try to make Jason Marquis remember what it was like pitching after the All-Star break when he was wearing blue pinstripes.
And hope Z's back feels better.
0 recs | 414 comments
The tipping point
Was D. Lee’s 388 foot fly out. That one goes over, the Cubs are rejuvenated and the recap might’ve been significantly different.
Danwood - August 8, 2009
I was on my feet
for that one, and was very disappointed at the end. :(
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
I thought when we
scored first it was going to be a good game. I can’t get too upset with Sean considering how Lou has used him this season. Shark did his job too. Just needed the bats to get going.
Hopefully tonight is better for our team.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
That is still my concern
I’m ok with the pitching staff if healthy but the offense is just way too streaky.
rlpete - August 8, 2009
Agreed
Hard to believe that Sean can be the long reliever any more with his one or two-batter outings recently. Hopefully, his role changes with the influx of Pirate lefties.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
Lou says he WOULD have used Dempster
If Z had given him ANY warning and several reports from Coors indicate he may have tweaked his back swinging for the fences in batting practice. This is really frustrating however if the Cubs were only going to score two runs it is hard to say it changed the outcome of the game.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
I hate the DH.
But injuries like this — if it’s really true that Z hurt his back taking BP — and the previous one he suffered running the bases earlier this year, are a good argument to have it.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
Sorry pitchers hitting it is part of baseball
Z has to learn to deal with it. Cubs would have been better off last night if catchers had a DH.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Pitchers hitting is part of baseball...
… in the NL only. Like I said, I hate the DH, but do not be surprised if it is installed in the NL as part of the next labor agreement.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
There are 16 teams in the NL
All of them have 5 starting pitchers and a few more pitchers who get spot starts.
So, that’s what? 80-85 pitchers who have to hit regularly?
Out of all those guys, how many of them hurt their backs in batting practice?
The problem isn’t pitchers hitting. It’s our pitcher trying to hit 700-foot homers.
Worf - August 8, 2009
Which would be solved if he didn't hit at all.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
Or if he had the sense that God gave a gnat
Worf - August 8, 2009
Going with Worf on this one...
Somebody needs to tell Z that the only one impressed by his BP bombs is himself.
Ross - August 8, 2009
Yep. The boy that refused to grow up.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I want to agree, sort of
But those home runs seem to be needed more often than not.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
It doesn't strike you as a bit ridiculous that we have to take the bat out of the hands
of a grown adult by changing the rules? I like Z, but how much intelligence does it take to know you’ve suffered back problems, and therefore should be doing everything you can NOT to tweak it again?
Illicat - August 8, 2009
agreed.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
I don't much care
Unlike some, I will watch baseball no matter what, and it is ridiculously stupid to have a sport with two separate leagues having two separate rules.
From a Cub-centric point of view, it would solve the Jake Fox problem.
Worf - August 8, 2009
Amen.
smash! - August 8, 2009
+1
Institute the DH in the NL.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
#2
DUMP THE DH in the American League !. Ok it will never happen as it is jobs program for bad fielding players but
seriously it is a terrible rule that destroys the integrity of baseball. All players are supposed to hit, field and do their jobs. Managers are SUPPOSED to be able to think and plan not have an easy button. The ONLY reason to have the DH in the National League is that if would make Tone LaRussa an ordinary manager instead of a great one because he would no longer be able to outthink every other manager re pitching changes, pitchers batting etc.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
+1
chitownhawkeye - August 8, 2009
absolutely.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Rec'd
LT - August 8, 2009
Turn it green, folks
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Don't know if I agree with "destroying the integrity" part
I’d classify the Black Sox, Pete Rose, and PEDs as such but not the DH. Your suppositions that it’s a wrong-headed rule are well taken, though.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
This is one of the best things you've ever said on this blog, Jess.
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
Yep
Except I would not go so far as say outthink. Most of Tony’s thinking is directed towards his own legacy. But most of the great ones also have a great eye for self-promotion.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
And while we are at it...
Let’s put a pitching screen in front of the pitcher… wouldn’t want to have to make them field anything. Might get hurt. And runners shouldn’t be able to steal or lead off. Pitcher might get hurt throwing over there.
Ridiculous.
Pitchers should hit. It is part of the strategy of the game and it rewards teams with better overall athletes. The DH makes for dull baseball. If it gets added to the NL, the only reason will be the players association fighting to get that one more big contract for the Jake Foxes And Daryle Wards of the world.
Ross - August 8, 2009
Strawman much?
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
And let's have all the other players field pop-ups!
Wait, what?
Worf - August 8, 2009
if that happens, i think mlb loses a lot of fans.
i can’t watch the al at all.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
So if the NL adopts the DH
You won’t be watching the Cubs?
More beer for me!
Worf - August 8, 2009
yeah
al games are a pain to watch. they drag on forever and the manager is pretty useless.
i love watching the wheels turn with nl guys “do i ph for the pitcher here or stick with my guy”
Allie - August 8, 2009
Pitchers pretending to be hitters is the joke of NL baseball.
DudeVf11 - August 8, 2009
Hitters unable to play a position
is the joke of AL baseball
chitownhawkeye - August 8, 2009
No, it's not unable to do so
it’s choosing to have a rule where they don’t have to.
Since the DH was implemented, the AL is 21-15 in World Series, and has consistently won the interleague series.
The AL teams have adapted to the “harder” NL rules much easier than the NL teams to the “easier” AL rules.
Worf - August 8, 2009
I understand what you're saying
but to me, handing the bat to a player who then doesn’t have to go on the field is wrong. That being said, the DH has extended the playing careers of players who otherwise would have become backups or been out of the game because of their defensive liabilities.
chitownhawkeye - August 8, 2009
It isn't wrong but it's somewhat a matter of preferences.
What’s wrong is the near zero hitting expectations of NL teams of their pitchers. If it were somehow “correct” or superior for the NL pitchers to hit then one might think they’d at least be held accountable for poor hitting at the NL MLB level. Instead the NL lineup generally comes with a near automatic out, which also diminishes the effectiveness of competent 8th place hitters. (I am not positive about this but I think pitchers hit at the minor league level only when two NL team affiliates play each other and only at AA or higher?)
I am not claiming that one is “wrong” for preferring to watch outs take place. Also, it appears to add fun to the game when the outlier comes around, like Big Z, or the 10,000 monkeys swinging away get a HR now and then. I can see why some fans might prefer that—it breaks up the monotony of all those outs.
But seriously, there is something to be said for requiring all players to hit and field a position. But I think the NL has moved so far away from this that I don’t see it taken seriously. I think it would be better for MLB and would generate more fan interest if the DH were adopted in the NL.
DudeVf11 - August 8, 2009
Rec'd.
In general, I like the idea of everyone playing their position and hitting — the complete player. But the reality is, the vast majority of pitchers simply cannot hit.
It appears time for the DH in the NL, particularly when every other professional league uses it.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
As my mother says to me when I use this logic
If they all jumped off a cliff would you jump too ?
It sucks and just because the other leagues use it out of laziness is no reason for the NL to adopt it.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Laziness?
Hardly.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
$$
for old guys that would have had to retire by now.
LT - August 8, 2009
and young guys who can't field.
It is a total cop out and yes it makes both players and managers lazy.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Agreed, Al
The DH belongs in the NL. Anybody complaining about players who can’t field their position needs to be pointed to video of countless NL pitchers lamely striking out
berselius - August 8, 2009
The fact that the average AL payroll is higher than NL ones by $14m this year
might have something to do with it. In 1998 it was $5m. It has only grown over the past 10 years. Coincidentally, the NL has fallen behind in both World Series and All Star game wins. Coincidence, I think not.
madcow256 - August 8, 2009
That average is thrown off by exactly two teams
The New York Yankees and the Florida Marlins
Of the top 15 Payrolls at the start of 2009, 8 of them were in the NL
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
Worf - August 8, 2009
doesn't matter
it’s still not baseball.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
OOps it's the "joke part"
DudeVf11 - August 8, 2009
no no no
if Z is tweaking his back swinging, then he needs to change his swing. This is the NL. We play baseball here. The AL does something different.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Winning baseball?
Worf - August 8, 2009
the Royals
and Orioles would like a word.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, White Sox and Twins
have a rebuttal.
Worf - August 8, 2009
don't forget the Tigers!
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
as would the Phillies, Dodgers, Cubs and
St. Louis.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
With the Pirates and Padres?
Ozzie Montana - August 8, 2009
Oh come on.
These guys are extraordinarily talented professional athletes making millions of dollars and they can’t run the bases or swing a bat? Why? Because they might get hurt? It’s a whole lot more likely that someone gets hurt throwing a pitch than running the bases or hitting. Just because pitchers are too lazy to maintain their overall conditioning and be capable baserunners and batters doesn’t mean they can’t, and it especially doesn’t mean there should be a rule indulging this ridiculous behavior.
cubsforever - August 8, 2009
Just freaking ridiculous......doesn’t he understand how important his job
…is as a PITCHER?
Talk about totally screwing your team and fans for your own machismo…..
JB 23 - August 8, 2009
I've been saying this since May
Worf - August 8, 2009
I've heard Z say on at least a couple occasions...
…that his No. 1 priority is pitching. His back may have flared up during bullpen warmups. Until we know for sure, I advise calm.
daver - August 8, 2009
Unpossible
everyone has their opinion about z and when ever something involves him they must react accordingly.
Allie - August 8, 2009
link?
I can’t seem to find anywhere else that confirms this
berselius - August 8, 2009
Which part ?
The fact that Lou would have used Dempster if he had any warning is here
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1706749,CST-SPT-cub08.article
There were multiple reports from fans at Coors that Z was swinging for the fences in BP but there is no way to know for sure if that
caused his back to act up again/
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Ah, good old speculation
None of the media outlets have run with this. Paul Sullivan for one would be jumping up and down if he heard this
berselius - August 8, 2009
Total speculation that he injured or re injured himself in batting practice.
but not that wild. All his throwing sessions had been normal according to all reports. In general swinging for the fences in batting practice when you are coming off a back injury is not the best idea. One thing I would like to know is if Z had been taking those type of batting practice swings on any other day since he was injured. He clearly had thrown normally since then.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Carlos Zambrano cannot win the media or the fans
berselius - August 8, 2009
He might be his own worst enemy
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
just... (dying laughing)
berselius - August 8, 2009
So am I
But not at CaliCub’s reasonable statement….at the “H.D.Y.S.C.C.” (How Dare You Slight Carlos Club)
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Put it this way...
His childishness, manifested in tantrums and silly injuries, keeps him from being a truly elite pitcher.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Silly injuries?
Number of seasons Z has made fewer than 30 starts: 0
Number of seasons Z has made fewer than 32 starts: 2
In those seasons he made 30 and 31 starts
berselius - August 8, 2009
Any comment on the tantrum part?
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I agree with daver below
Z is just being Z, and he wouldn’t be my favorite player on this team if he wasn’t. Obviously it’s not stopping him from being a great pitcher, so I don’t give a crap
berselius - August 8, 2009
He's NOT a great pitcher.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Is he a good pitcher?
daver - August 8, 2009
Yes. In fact, he's above average.
I’ve never said otherwise.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
So by "great"...
…you mean “ace level,” which I agree with. Z’s never reached ace level, but he’s still a very good pitcher – and I’ve come to accept this as how it is and how it will probably always be.
daver - August 8, 2009
And you're wiser for it
Because it’s got to be a lot less frustrating.
I think you’re probably right, too.
There’s no reason that this has to be so polarizing. You’re pretty reasonable and I think you’d concede that I point out good and bad that I see. I’ve said plenty of good things about Zambrano, but for whatever reason, people get livid when negative things are said about Zambrano.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
The problem I see...
…(not so much with you but with many Cubs fans) is there’s this “all or nothing” approach to Carlos Zambrano. Either he’s an ace or a failure. Or perhaps they seem him as only as a “failed ace.” But all that matters to me is that the Cubs have good starting pitchers in their rotation, of which Z is definitely one. True aces, like true leadoff hitters, are simply very rare.
daver - August 8, 2009
BUT HE's BEING PAID LIKE AN ACE!!!11!!eleven!!ZOMG
berselius - August 8, 2009
Yes, that is an issue
Just because someone points out flaws in his game, though, it doesn’t mean that they hate the guy.
Jessica’s getting dumped on too in this thread.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
OK, I definitely don't think...
…you or Jessica hates Z. I just think his emotional outbursts’ effect on his pitching is overrated.
daver - August 8, 2009
I know you don't think that.
But there were others that went to an extreme.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
He isnt and that window is closing for him too....
…every year is supposed to be the year he steps up and becomes and Ace….
Were all waiting Z….
Someday he might grow up, lets hope its still while he is a Cub
JB 23 - August 8, 2009
This is exactly the problem.
People waiting around for Z to “become” something he’s not. Let it go and accept him for what he is – a very good pitcher who can’t always control his emotions.
daver - August 8, 2009
fair point.....a little too level headed for me today though ;)
….I am doing my best Z impersonation today, letting my emotions get the best of me
JB 23 - August 8, 2009
Examples
Yesterday’s reaggravation of his back problems trying to hit HRs in BP.
Arm miseries exacerbated from surfing the ’Net.
Cramping due to too many sports drinks and not enough water.
I get your point in that he’s no Rich Harden (lots of DL stints); that’s why I labeled the injuries as “silly”. Maybe “frivilous” was the word i should have used?
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Has the batting practice thing been confirmed yet?
daver - August 8, 2009
I don't think so
but it’s being presented by some here as an unassailable truth.
I think we need to hold off on that.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
I thought that
it was mentioned on the pregame show or L & B made a reference to it.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
OK, well, that may have been pregame speculation.
This article, for instance, makes it sounds like the back spasms occured when Z warmed up in the pen. I guess he could have tweaked it in BP and then the symptoms didn’t flare up until he started throwing. But I’d still like to hear some sort of official confirmation about that before the torches and pitchforks come out.
daver - August 8, 2009
It was just me
speculating as to what happened based on my observations at the game last night. I’m not a professional trainer or anything. It just looked to me like he was swinging for the fences. He did hit a few out in BP.
Colorado Cubbies Fan - August 8, 2009
So YOU'RE the one!
daver - August 8, 2009
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful.
Colorado Cubbies Fan - August 8, 2009
For what it's worth...
I was at the game and to me it appeared he was taking it easy in BP. He may have hit one out, but most were to medium depth in the outfield. It didn’t appear as if he was over swinging or trying to kill the ball.
I did question why he was even taking BP if he was coming off a start that he had to leave because of back issues though.
That being said, why make Marshall the mergency starter ? He’s a control/finesse pitcher, playing at Coors and hadn’t thrown over an inning in how long ? As much as I dislike him, Smardzija would have been a better choice. Now we’ve lost both of them for the balance of the series probably.
Southside Steve - August 8, 2009
I just don't really believe...
…his “tantrums” keep him from being a truly elite pitcher. Z pitches how he pitches, performs how he performs. His behavior is merely static that comes with his skill set.
daver - August 8, 2009
I disagree
I think he loses focus and tries to throw the ball 100 MPH when things go wrong.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I agree
Z loses composure and focus pretty easily and it affects his game. And it’s his own lack of focus that robs him of his own ability.
Look, I like Z and I always feel pretty confident when he takes the mound. However I don’t think he’s a lock like Roy Halliday has been this year. Does Z have that potential? Absolutely! But I think he needs to be on a more even keel to do so.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
except
he’s been visibly keeping a handle on his composure this season. We’ve seen him do it on the TV. Yes, there was the blowup against the ump, but that was partly incited, too.
Z is a great pitcher. Part of that is his passion and temper. If you take that out, he’s not the great pitcher we need him to be.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
I think you meant that the blowup at the ump
was partly hilarious
berselius - August 8, 2009
it was both
the ump initiated contact and then threw him out, which is what really triggered Z’s rage. And rightfully so.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Absoultely.
The “he started it” argument is always justification.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
99% of kids endorse this statement.
Goodie1969 - August 8, 2009
oh, FFS
I’m not having this argument with you again. I will suggest that your continued assertions that you’re objective about Zambrano are… stretched.
Ghods forbid that the people arbiting the game have to follow the rules too.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
You are free to do so
But I’d bet a year’s salary that most would find me objective as opposed to negative and find you as incensed whenever anyone criticizes a Cub.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I don't like that the ump made contact
But there are very few examples where someone flying into a rage is completely understandable. He’s a grown man. The tantrum he threw was reminiscent of a teenager, especially considering he got “bumped” not attacked
Illicat - August 8, 2009
players hollering at managers
is as old as baseball. They’re playing a kid’s game, and the only time we get really upset with them is when they act like children?
It’s a non-issue.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
I'd gues most, if not all, pitchers get frustrated on the mound.
Just because we can see his frustration doesn’t necessarily make it any worse than any other pitcher’s. And it works both ways – his personality probably makes him as good as he is as well as bad as he is at times. In other words, it’s part of the package.
daver - August 8, 2009
It manifets itself physically
Do you ever remember Maddux reacting like that?
How about putting yourself in the shoes of the fielder that made the mistake – how good do you feel to see the pitcher gyrating on the mound afterwards?
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Again, I'd understand that that's Z's personality.
I’m sure it would’ve bothered me at the time, but I’d never expect Z to act like Greg Maddux.
daver - August 8, 2009
he'd hold it in
and then he’d swell up like that guy at the end of “Big Trouble In Little China” and explode.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
(dying laughing)
I see, it’s Zambrano’s fault that he’s not Greg Maddux
berselius - August 8, 2009
Whatever, strawman.
I started out by saying he’s immature and loses focus. Since you can’t really refute that, you continue to throw out other things.
It was an example, and either you know it but chose to make weak arguments like this, or you really are thick.
Either way, I see now that you are a member of the H.D.Y.S.C.C.
I can acknowledge a lot of postiives about Zambrano, but you clearly can’t acknowledge any down side.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
not only a strawman, but also accurate
it IS zambrano’s fault that his demeanor isn’t more like Maddux’s.
Who else’s fault would it be?
Illicat - August 8, 2009
Gee, I don't know.
Their DNA, their metabolisms, their upbringing, their native cultures, their diets, their belief systems. They’re two different people.
daver - August 8, 2009
I still remember a post years ago
When someone described Maddux’s reaction on the bench to watching Carlos break a bat over his knee after striking out. He said Maddux looked like a parent watching someone else’s child misbehave in public. It cracked me up.
In fairness it should be noted that Bobby Cox took a lot of the heat for Maddux always jumping and getting ejected lest Maddux do something that might get him ejected. Cox did this last night but alas the ump eject him AND Jurjjens. Also worth noting that Maddux probably took more batting practice than any pitcher in history. He LOVED to hit and according to all reports wanted nothing more than to hit home runs however he realized that was really something he could ONLY do in BP and instead spent much of his time improving his bunting skills something I wish the the Cubs pitching staff would spend more time on.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
but that's the problem
most if not all pitchers get frustrated on the mound, but are still able to CONTROL themselves.
to claim it’s just part of his personality, and therefore it absolves him of all blame is……odd, unless you’re talking about a 3 year old
Illicat - August 8, 2009
I never said it absolves him from all blame.
Blame for what? Z is a very good pitcher; he’s not an ace. And his emotional outbursts have only a marginal effect on his ability to pitch well. That’s what I’m saying.
Many of those pitchers who can “control themselves” aren’t as good as Carlos Zambrano.
daver - August 8, 2009
Horsehockey
He’s not always wrong, but he is often immature. There is a legion of fans sworn to defend any slight against Zambrano, but there are a lot of credible accounts about his immaturity – not to mention millions of eyewitness accounts of his meltdowns when things don’t go his own way.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Pitcher A, 162 game avg.: 33 GS, 217 IP, 219 H, 96 ER, 24 HR, 64 BB, 166 K, 3.97 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 114 ERA+
Pitcher B, 162 game avg.: 32 GS, 231 IP, 224 H, 88 ER, 19 HR, 52 BB, 167 K, 3.45 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 133 ERA+
Pitcher C, 162 game avg.: 33 GS, 213 IP, 180 H, 82 ER, 18 HR, 96 BB, 181 K, 3.48 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, 128 ERA+
Pitcher D, 162 game avg.: 33 GS, 217 IP, 207 H, 85 ER, 24 HR, 48 BB, 182 K, 3.52 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 125 ERA+
Pitcher E, 162 game avg.: 34 GS, 215 IP, 186 H, 79 ER, 22 HR, 70 BB, 216 K, 3.29 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 119 ERA+
The pitchers on this list are, in no particular order, Jake Peavy, Roy Halladay, Carlos Zambrano, Dan Haren, and Chris Carpenter. Which is which?
berselius - August 8, 2009
I know this has nothing to do with 'immaturity',
except that it hasn’t gotten in the way of him being a great pitcher
berselius - August 8, 2009
He's not a great pitcher
He’s an above average pitcher. And his emotions have inhibited him.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Your statement is correct
But in the context of his era, Big Z certainly qualifies as an ace. Perhaps not in the way we all want him to be, but statistically since he began being a full time starter, he is one of the top starters in the game STATISTICALLY. Nothing about his mental makeup or his meltdowns.
nji232 - August 8, 2009
Someone who is an ace in every sense of the word
Almost never loses a 3 run lead that his team gets him.
Stops losing streaks consistently.
Considers the team result more important than his own W-L record.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
What the hell?
When has Z cared about his W-L record?
berselius - August 8, 2009
Once again
Carlos Zambrano cannot win the media or the fans
berselius - August 8, 2009
Once again, objective people can't win with the H.D.Y.S.C.C.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I can't argue any of that
Because its true.
nji232 - August 8, 2009
can you provide
any evidence for your third statement?
No pitcher on this team has been able to be the consistent stopper; and I’m not sure if all of our pitchers have had three run leads ever.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Can you provide any refution for any of those statements that they are what real aces do?
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
you're the one
making the assertion that Z cares more about his personal W/L ratio. I’m asking if you have any evidence to support that assertion.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
No, you and other members of the club are making that assumption
I said those are three things that true aces do. That was all I said.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
oh, please
you’re not nearly as subtle as you want to be.
Someone: Z is an ace.
You: No, aces don’t A, B, or C.
Someone: What evidence do you have that Z does C?
You: When did I say Z does C?
Ok. Your objectivity filter has officially slipped.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Meh. You're never going to be satisfied
Because I don’t agree with your opinion on Zambrano.
I can live with that.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Stopping losing streaks is BS
If a pitcher could ‘dial it up’ to stop a losing streak, they should be pitching just the same in any other start. This is just a matter of random chance and fans projecting what they want on a pitcher. If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen
berselius - August 8, 2009
Which is why players always make a big deal out of it
And Santo and Hughes went on and on the last two years about Lilly’s record after games that the Cubs lost.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
it's an attribution
that’s applied AFTER it happens. I suggest that it’s mostly coincidence, or it’s a reflection of the manager choosing to play a pitcher who works very differently then the one who pitched before him. In which case, it might be to Lou’s credit, and we can’t have THAT…
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Hahaha!
So now because I sometimes criticize Piniella, I’m a Lou hater? I’ve made plenty of comments on here stating how he’s changed the culture.
God forbid I should point out that he’s not infallible.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
uh-huh
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Whee!
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Here are three examples of me defending Piniella
Again, Hendry got the players, but not without input Jim was the GM for 4 1/2 years pre-Piniella. The talent level during those years only approached this year in 2004. Even then, it was a reflection of it’s manager—whiny and excuse making.
Lou’s not perfect—but he’s better than anyone I can remember managing the Cubs since the early 1980’s. And his impact is more felt by the roster than in-game decisions.
Lou overhauled the roster last year (or at least got Hendry to do so) and changed the attitude – completely – in less than half a season.
Everyone loves the manager when the team is winning and everyone piles on when the team is losing, but I really think hiring Piniella was the single best decision Henrdy has made as GM. The guy is a winner, and as someone else said, he’s not here to make friends.
Tough to blame this on Piniella If Gregg is going to remain the closer, the best thing for him was to get back on the horse. It just didn’t work out.
How about:
- a one-out triple in the fourth, with Theriot not scoring
- first and third with one out in the third and no more runs scoring
- a two-out double in the second, but Koyie Hill is such a weak hitter that not only does he not deliver, but the Marlins go right at him preferring to have Dempster lead off the next inning;
- scoring 2 runs
This one is on the offense
As tough as it was to refute that powerful “uh-huh” assertion . . .
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Agreed
This is like the legendary “clutch hitting” stat. When analyzed over a large sample size, it turns out that the really good hitters hit nearly the same in all situations. And really, this is what you would expect and hope for. Because the pressure is on in clutch situations, so if they are feeling the pressure, they might hit worse.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
"Aces almost never lose leads or lose big games"
Tim McCarver, is that you?
stringerbel - August 8, 2009
I'm trying to decide which is worse form
Commenting on the middle of a conversation after other statements have been made taking it further, or
Using quotes and not actually quoting what was said.
I’d have to go with the latter on that.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Was this not what you wrote?
stringerbel - August 8, 2009
Yes. And it's not what you quoted above.
If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I've never heard Z
care more about his wins than team wins.
Admitedly, I love Zambrano. I think he’s pretty awesome. He’s not the stoic “take the ball and win” ace, but he gives us a chance every time.
I keep coming mentally back to game 2 last year when everyone completely melted down; except Z. He kept his calm, kept trying to get out of it, and somehow managed not to kill everyone on the team for picking the biggest game of the season to forget how to play baseball.
Allie - August 8, 2009
I think that's a really good point
Everybody else was losing their heads, but Z wasn’t.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Excellent point!
berselius - August 8, 2009
+1
One of his most memorable games, for that reason.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
Can this ever really be proven, though?
daver - August 8, 2009
No more than it can be proven that you love your wife - but I'd bet that you do.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Kinda apples and oranges, don'tcha think?
daver - August 8, 2009
No, not really.
The point is that reasonable inferences can be made from enough observations.
Sometimes that’s all you’ll ever have to go on.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Here's a question then
Does Kerry Wood get frustrated when he pitches? Ted Lilly? Ryan Dempster? Chris Carpenter?
Maybe they’re just better actors than Z
berselius - August 8, 2009
See above. I never said pitchers shouldn't get frustrated.
They don’t need to show up teammates or try to do more than they are physically capable because of the frustration.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Z is showing up teammates?
When he gets upset, he’s upset with himself.
berselius - August 8, 2009
I can recall Z throwing his cap to the ground
after an outfielder misplayed a fly ball. I would call that “showing up” your teammate.
Goodie1969 - August 8, 2009
Michael Barrett thinks otherwise.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
that's not exactly the same thing
Barrett and Z got into it together. It’s not like when Fielder shoved his pitcher through the dugout wall.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Manny Parra!?!?!?!?!?!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
I disagree.
Barrett didn’t throw the first punch. An out of control Z did.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
Barret and Z
were arguing. It takes two to tango. I see them reaching for each-other at the same time.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070601cubsvideo,0,6202038.htmlstory
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Marshall was the funniest part of that
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Again I disagree.
I don’t see what you see at all.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
Barrett pointed to something on the field
Z punched him. I’m a little confused how you see anything else
Illicat - August 8, 2009
you don't see
Barret point to the field and then reach for Z?
Ok.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
And if Barrett was still here
You’d see Zambrano in the wrong, drew
Worf - August 8, 2009
unlikely.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
i show up my dog quite often
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
jerk
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
ME SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
The showing up his teammates thing...
…happened only a couple times. It’s something he seems to have gotten under control, unless I’ve missed some recent incidents.
daver - August 8, 2009
Come on, Dave
His body language on the field has been bad more than twice when someone’s made a mistake.
I do think he’s gotten a LOT better about that this year. One that stood out to me was just before he pulled his hammy – a run scored because of Soto’s misplay, and he didn’t show any reaction at all – just got the next hitter out.
And, I noted that on this site.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
OK, I didn't mean "couple" literally.
It probably has happened more than once. I think, overall, Z’s been calmer for the last two or three years – with a few obvious and notable exceptions, of course. I’d still guess, however, that his teammates are more than familiar with his personality and take stuff like that in stride.
daver - August 8, 2009
Z is the "Luis Tiant" of this generation!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Now THERE was a guy you could count on!
And by that I’m not saying I wish Z was like Looie. I’m just indulging in a bit of nostalgia.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
HELL YEAH!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Irrelevant and a deflection
The point is the man is immature and often gets in his own way of being better.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
The answers
A: Chris Carpenter
B: Roy Halladay
C: Carlos Zambrano
D: Dan Haren
E: Jake Peavy
I’m pretty comfortable saying that Z is in their company
berselius - August 8, 2009
Good for you.
I’m pretty comfortable saying that he could be better than he is if he learned how to channel his emotions better.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
All right, I'm done here
It’s obvious that we’re never going to agree about this
berselius - August 8, 2009
I think I'd agree that it might make him marginally better.
But I don’t think it would make him markedly better.
daver - August 8, 2009
I think his stuff is a lot better than Dempster's
But his stats this year aren’t.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Wait, what
Carlos Zambrano: 3.35 ERA, 3.83 FIP,
Ryan Dempster: 4.09 ERA, 4.32 FIP,
berselius - August 8, 2009
Ah, yes. ERA, the all-telling metric.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Um, I quoted FIP too, which strips away defense
which stat do you prefer?
berselius - August 8, 2009
What's FIP?
Not asked sarcastically; I’ve honestly never heard of it.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Fielding independent pitching
The formula is (HR*13 + (BB + HBP – IBB)3 – 2K) + 3.2 (or a similar normalizing factor depending on league environment, to put it on an ERA scale like people are used to seeing). It excludes fielding and is more predictive of future performance than ERA
berselius - August 8, 2009
cool, thanks :-)
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
They have it on fangraphs
Which is the best baseball site on the planet.
Hardball times has an improvment on FIP called xFIP as well, which corrects for some flukier things like HR/FB rates and stuff like that too. But I don’t tend to use it as often because they don’t have a projected xFIP there (though you can argue that xFIP in and of itself is projective)
berselius - August 8, 2009
I love it when you talk dirty.
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
Oh, I thought since it was ok for you to pick pieces to reply to
That it was ok for everyone to do so. My bad.
You’ve already said we’re not going to agree. I agree with that.
My initial assertion was that Zambrano isn’t as good as he could be and he lets his emotions get the better of him.
Why this started a firestorm like I’d called him garbage is beyond me, but I stand by it.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I'm not arguing about opinions here
What you said about Z and Demp’s stats had ZERO factual basis
berselius - August 8, 2009
Ok, I'll concede that it was a weak point
Because I went on WHIP. Not good enough to support that assertion, and I don’t have a problem admitting it.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Actually
Z WHIP: 1.35
Demp WHIP: 1.38
(still had the windows open)
berselius - August 8, 2009
Right - I said not much better
I did not say worse.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
And is that a reflection on Z or Demp?
daver - August 8, 2009
Well, since I said one has better stuff, ie ability
What does that imply?
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
I think you may be underrating Demp...
…and overrating Z.
daver - August 8, 2009
Possibly.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
So, how much better?
Would he suddenly be Cy Young? If his emotions are holding him back, they’re not doing a good job of it.
Harry Pavlidis - August 8, 2009
My opinion of course, but he could be the best RH starter in the NL
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Better than Lincecum?
Kinda doubt it.
daver - August 8, 2009
Me too
I’ve said it before, Tim Lincecum is the Top Five pitchers in the NL. He’s also close to the best in the AL thanks to interleague play :-)
Harry Pavlidis - August 8, 2009
Yeah, I think Tim's mullet is better than...
…some teams’ entire rotations.
daver - August 8, 2009
LOL
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
(dying laughing)
berselius - August 8, 2009
Better, no. As good as, yes.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Hm, well, maybe Z could've gone in that direction...
…earlier in his career. But I don’t think he could rise to that level now.
daver - August 8, 2009
At this stage in his career? That's a pretty ridiculous assumption
stringerbel - August 8, 2009
I've been called worse so I won't argue that
But I’m damn sure Z is as good as Sim-Lincecum in “MLB The Show 09”. :-p
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
"He should really put on a towel."
daver - August 8, 2009
:-D
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
OOooooohh, facts!
I love facts!!
Recommended for truth!
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
3*2=6
Also true, and has exactly the same to do with what he was replying to than the comment you recommended.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
You're making my head hurt, Badger.
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
I am a big fan of Z
And I defended with injury on the bunt. I can’t say what happened last night but it is really scary that either throwing pitch in a bullpen session which he had supposedly done without any problem for a week or swinging for the fences
in batting practice caused some kind of major injury. Leaving 15 minutes to warm up a replacement pitcher is an accident waiting to happen. I think he needs to go on the DL because you can’t afford for that to happen again.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
or maybe
something in the plane trip or something that he did getting out of bed, or something that he did during the day was what hurt his back. I’ve pulled muscles in my leg standing up from the couch, I’ve tweaked my arm trying to scratch my back.
All I’m saying is that the only thing we know is that Z indicated he wasn’t going to be able to pitch, and we had to go with an emergency start. That’s it. Anything else is speculation.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Actually that would be WORSE
Because that would mean that he WAS hurting and told no one and there is nothing more damaging than hiding an injury or thinking you will just gut it through ESPECIALLY when you are starting pitcher. If he had ANY inkling that he was hurting he should have told LOU ASAP. Remember according to Lou all his side sessions etc were fine. According to a fan at the game he threw only FIVE pitches in the bullpen and none of them at full speed. The best case is that he was hurt in batting practice trying to swing for the fences because if he was HIDING or DENYING an injury he has done the team major damage.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
maybe
or maybe the effects weren’t felt until he started throwing harder.
The point is, Jessica, we don’t know. I wish I understood why people were so quick to suggest that such incidents are due to lack of self-control, or lack of caring, or lack of hustle, or lack of understanding his role, or whatever the hell else people want to blame on the players they don’t particularly like.
He was going to pitch. Something went wrong. We don’t know why. That’s IT. Move on.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Throw harder than what ?
We are talking about a start AFTER he went out after 3 innings with a bad back and said it was just from a bad bed in the hotel . He threw FIVE pitches , none of them full speed and I am supposed to believe he suddenly re-injured his back and had NO clue this was going to happen.
I love Z , really I do. The emotional stuff can drive one crazy but as I observed before he is the ALWAYS the guy at the top of the dugout steps cheering everyone on and the first guy on the field celebrating a victory but last night he either tried to gut out an injury that he kept to himself or injured himself swinging to hard. Sorry but you can’t "move on’ because you have put Lou and the rest of the staff in the position of not trusting him. The only way to move on is to put him on the DL and make SURE he can pitch before he tries again.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
no
maybe the injury wasn’t completely healed. Maybe he slipped in one of his first five pitches.
I’m just saying that we’re speculating about the reasons, and we know nothing about the reasons why. Maybe he does need to go on the DL, although I sure hope not.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
I'd just like to point out
That my observations weren’t meant to be accusations. I really dig Zambrano. Would I like to see him control his emotions better? Yes. But that emotion thing is a big part of why he is who he is. Did he hurt/reagrivate his back in BP? I don’t really know, it’s just speculation.
There’s a reason why I’m just some guy on the internet and not working in a a clubhouse.
Colorado Cubbies Fan - August 8, 2009
Um don't take this personally
but I did not even see your observations and they were not the basis for my posts. There was someone over at TCR who posted in some detail about Z ( throwing only 5 pitches etc).
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Nothing personal.
I was responding to drew.
Colorado Cubbies Fan - August 8, 2009
Except Drew was responding to me
All too confusing. Off to lunch.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Past reputation, I suppose
Be it Zambrano (temper) or ARam/Soriano (laziness), a player’s past transgressions will always be pointed to when said player doesn’t execute…at least how WE would like them to execute. I suppose there’s a fine line between a character trait and an old habit.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
So 2/3s of the thread is used to discuss the guy who *didn't* play...
Obsess much, y’all?
Clutch16 - August 8, 2009
Or quit pinch hitting him
We are all spitballing here, but having Z pinch hit against the Reds couldn’t have helped. Especially since he’d been pulled from his previous start. Maybe Lou just needs to stop listening to Z whenever he tells him he feels fine.
Nibbles - August 8, 2009
Agreed
I really hate Zambrano as a pinch-hitter. It is amazing that he hasn’t hurt himself before with that swing. I can only imagine that he is even more extreme at times in BP.
rlpete - August 8, 2009
He also needs to know when a pitcher like Gregg
is not fine. I don’t blame him with Z as reports are Z had been fine in all his BP sessions etc but it is the nature of players especially pitchers to say they are fine and you have to use some common sense as in the case of Gregg last Sunday.
FYI for those who think Gregg is the worst closer etc. Check out Frankie Rodriquez’s last two appearances as well as an epic meltdown by the Giants bullpen. Contrary to popular belief other bullpens screw up badly too.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
hahah youre insane
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
?
What’s that all about? Without any other comment, your post sure comes across as rude – and undedcated. Other bullpens do indeed screw up.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
i know that, im making fun of the people who dont know that/dont want to know that
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
Ok. Seemed like you were arguing with Jessica.
She was making the same point you are.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Normally I might have enjoyed
Rodriquez’s epic meltdown. He gave up 5 runs without recording an out in the 9th including a walk off granny but
the Mets are so bad if was not a lot of fun. I am sure when they play the Cubs I will be more entertained. The
Giants fiasco was more interesting as it was a combo of bad pitching and bad fielding leading to Red scoring 7 runs in the last two innings . Thing is I like the Giants but since they are a Cubs rival for the WC I have to want them to lose. The most fun of all the bullpen fiascos was the Dodgers. After messing up so badly with the Cardinals it was nice to see their BP still sucks even with Sherrill ( who was fine but Broxton and would be new starter named Elbert pitching in relief were bad.
After the Cubs game last night I had to find some fun elsewhere in baseball.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
If Lou had to pick between Marshall or Samardjiza,
Samardiza should have been the one starting. As much as I dislike Samardjiza and want him back in Iowa, his style suits Colorado. Marshall throws that high curve, which does not break in those high altitude areas.
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
The Shark didn't do too badly last night.
Of course, that makes me think all the more that he should stay in Iowa and focus on developing himself as a starter.
daver - August 8, 2009
yeah i was suprised at how he pitched yesterday considering his last outing in Florida
Stevens is never going to be a starter so it makes sense to keep him up and send shark down …
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Dont care for the lineup
I understand the logic but taking one of the most consistant hitters on the team (avg wise) and placing him in a spot where he will see far less quality pitches makes no sense. Let alone the fact that our more acomplished bunters are piled at the bottom. Must have a speedy unpredictible bat somewhere in the middle of the big lumber. PS – I forget how much I didnt miss the Soto “settle down” arm gesture. Maybe I just didnt notice it so much with other catchers since I am a little down on Geo but if I were a pitcher…
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
Aren't Fukudome and Bradley very good bunters?
smash! - August 8, 2009
I am sure they are
Not much for lead off bunts and Bradleys bat should be for swinging IMHO.
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
well if he cant hit no point putting him in an RBI spot in the lineup
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
This is an odd post.
I’m tempted to say that Andres Blanco is the only “accomplished bunter” on this team. But Dome has actually laid down some good ones in his time, too.
That aside, I see every reason to put your TWO HIGHEST OBP GUYS at the top of the lineup. Just because it didn’t work out last night, doesn’t mean it won’t in the future. A lineup of Dome and Bradley at the top, followed by three power hitters (four if Soto can get himself back to MLB form) is a thing of beauty, and Lou should stick with it.
daver - August 8, 2009
indeed
I hope we see it tonight.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
re this and above
First, Bradley should be in an RBI spot. Should. Production is the issue which provides other alternatives. His OBP is not based in him being a #2 guy but rather someone whos bat is taken out of his hands time and time again due to inside pitches. When he does hit..the production isnt there. I did think Bradley did well last night and it all remains to be seen. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. Second, Theriot in my view is the closest thing we have to a #2 hitter. I think we need a guy who is a slap hitter, can hit behind the runner and who truly is a threat with the bat unlike Milton at the moment. None of this would cause me concern if we were just a little more solid at 2B. My2
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
But the fact is...
… Bradley has been in RBI spots most of the year and hasn’t produced. Why not take advantage of the skill he DOES have in getting on base?
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
If he continues to have this production
Great! I am all for it. Will he see different pitchers approach to his at bats? He seemed to do well last night. On the bright side for me, maybe this will help him turn things around. On the downside, I am not crazy about the affect it may have on Theriot. He is really my #2. Not sure it should be messed with. I see all your points and appreciate the comments.
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
Maybe by batting 2nd
Bradley will start hitting the ball with more authority and, more importantly, regain enough confidence to where he can go back to batting 5th and knocking in some runs.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
I really hope this is the case
Also regarding below, now that we have Soto back, maybe time for Fox to get some starts rather than fooling with Milton and the 2 spot. I was down on Milton early on but if you are going to play him..maybe this is best.
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
Your concern seems to be more about Theriot's production
rather than the lineup as a whole. I don’t want to see Theriot fail, but if his numbers drop while the overall team’s numbers get better, that would be fine with me.
madcow256 - August 8, 2009
Well, I'll leave RBIs out of the discussion.
But you may be the last person associated with the Cubs who still believes Bradley is going to slug with any consistency from the left side this season. (Apparently, Lou’s patience has run out, too.) Maybe it’ll happen, maybe it won’t. But until it does, he should be in a spot in the lineup where his long ABs and high OBP can do the team some good.
And, FWIW, I think slap-hitting No. 2 hitters are overrated. I’d rather have two guys at the top who can simply get on base with regularity.
daver - August 8, 2009
Ryne Sandberg recommends Daver's post :-)
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Odd Circumstances
Giving up 6 runs in the first 6 innings isn’t something you want to see happen. The circumstances were odd though. I didn’t think the Cubs should have had the hitting issues they did at Coors Field. But when the middle of the lineup doesn’t produce, the it is one of the reasons the results are what they are. Maybe Jimenez should get more credit for his outing than I’m prone to want to give him. The next three games give us a chance to salvage the road trip.
AboutTheCubs - August 8, 2009
Cubs don't beat "good" teams, period
BLou - August 8, 2009
+1
bluekoolaide - August 8, 2009
Recipe for success
Play .500 ball against good teams.
Beat the hell out of worse teams.
I think that the Cubs are capable of this, even this season. Admittedly, it has been uneven so far.
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
83 wins
BLou - August 8, 2009
the 2006 won 83 games and they won the world series!!
/sarcasm
FloridaCubsFan - August 8, 2009
cardinals
FloridaCubsFan - August 8, 2009
I'll say this...
You are unwavering in your vision and your beliefs. Not even the pain of torture would convince you the Cubs might win more than 83 games this year.
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Point being...
The 2009 Chicago Cubs are a far cry from being a true viable playoff caliber team. Even in the extremely pathetic National League.
This has been an extremely disappointing and unlikable Cub team. And sure, that viewpoint colors my opinion on how they will perform overall on this season.
I’m not the only person with this viewpoint by the way. I have heard more than one good Cub fan say they hate this blankety-blank 2009 team. It’s over-polluted with bad contracts, jerk ballplayers and dysfunctionality.
BLou - August 8, 2009
what section of the newspaper do you read first? the obituaries?
LAcarl519 - August 8, 2009
Jerk ballplayers
Put together a 40-man roster filled with the biggest jagoffs on record and if they win a championship there won’t be one complaint about their likability. The whole idea that some of these Cubs are hard to root for is nonsensical and silly. For those that feel they can’t “like” certain players because of their perceived personas, perhaps they should follow soccer…or the WWE.
krummy12 - August 8, 2009
the biggest jagoffs on record?
Fukudome
Lee
Ramirez
Lilly
Dempster
Wells
Fox
Blanco
and I could go on. You want to focus your hate on Bradley and Soriano, go ahead, but stop trying act like this team is full of skid-row murderers. There’s a jagoff here. But it ain’t the team.
give me a f@cking break. So nice of you to return after a loss, tho!
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Umm . . . .
I don’t think you read as carefully as you might have.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
well
perhaps.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Dude
You bite too easily on BLou. No matter what he writes, you jump on it…don’t you know he’s chuckling every time you do it?
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
Good luck with that . . . .
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
He's the classic definition
of an agent provocateur. (Not to be confused with the Foreigner album of the same name.)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
ummmm
BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness - August 8, 2009
Well, not really
BLou craps on everybody. I only crap on you if you deserve it. :)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
I'll bet BLou thinks the same thing
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
No, I think BLou
doesn’t have a good thing to say about anyone or anything. Except maybe the Cardinals and Coors Field.
Interesting to see who replies to this post, however. They share some, shall we say, characteristics.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Well I've seen Blou crap on the team
which is annoying, but you’ve personally attacked 2 or 3 people just in the 20 minutes I’ve read this thread.
I don’t think that means I agree or share characteristics with Blou
Illicat - August 8, 2009
You're living in your own little world, Bruce.
Maybe you missed the pot/kettle reference above. Note: That wasn’t from me.
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
I didn't miss it
I just don’t agree with it.
Don’t do something worth attacking and I won’t do it. Say something that makes sense and is constructive and I’ll agree with it, as I do here frequently.
And it’s not sharing characteristics with BLou, it’s sharing characteristics with each other. The only complainers also seem to make the most asinine posts.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Ok, judge of all that is correct.
Take a step down. You aren’t all your giving your self credit for.
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
I'm not giving myself credit for anything
It’s just common sense.
Not all opinions are equal, I’m afraid.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Right, yours is above all else. Got it.
Go Cubs!
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
Not at all, but
if you want it to be that way, I won’t argue. :)
Go Cubs, indeed!
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
And your avatar
does buy you some brownie points. :)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
finally, someone picked up on the great pic I stole from this board!
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
Great
doesn’t begin to describe it … only Stone’s avatar might be better.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
who gets to judge what's worth attacking?
what a load of shit.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
Anybody on this site can
You just did, for example.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Well
The spinning tie and seltzer bottle cloud his vision.
krummy12 - August 8, 2009
considering it wasn't a reply to BLOU
…
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Wow
Good to see you’re still clueless as usual. Add reading comprehension to your long list of shortcomings.
krummy12 - August 8, 2009
Very well
I misread your post. Feel free to let that make you feel superior, but doesn’t matter to me any more then your “resume” does.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
LOLOLOLOL
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
+1
We have to lower our expectations, with all the injuries, and most guys not playing to their capabilities, my gut is telling me this isn’t the year. Hope I’m wrong!
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
26-29 to finish the season
You really are something else
IllinoisCubs - August 8, 2009
Ahem
Wait until after the Cubs win that 84th game to be rubbing it in his face. Most of us have lived long enough to see Cub swoons worse than it would take to end up no more than 83 wins. And with Zambrano’s back and no guarantees that Lilly will be as good as he was in the first half, there is a fair chance the starting pitching will go south in the last 7 weeks in the season.
I’m not saying I agree with BLou, but the ingredients are all there for a poor finish. You might want to wait to say the “I told you so” until the Cubs have exceeded the magic win total.
FrankSereno - August 8, 2009
Another reason
Cubs culture never will change until this mentality changes.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
The culture
doesn’t affect the way they play.
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
Maybe it does
maybe it doesn’t. I think there’s evidence of the latter, particularly in the postseason.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Are you sure
Evidence of the latter in postseason. What is it?
AboutTheCubs - August 8, 2009
2008
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
are you talking about
the very subdued crowd for the first game against the dodgers?
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
Yep
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
The crowd was hyped-up for game 3 in 2007.
Didn’t matter. They lost anyway.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
IMO
That’s far out. I don’t agree with your assessment of what impacted the results of that game. They also could have gone on to win the others.
AboutTheCubs - August 8, 2009
The crowds for Games 1 and 2 last year
That would be like 40,000 clones of myself watching the game – tense, fingers crossed, anticipating every move with worry. So you guys should be glad I don’t attend games in person!
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
Close thinking
This season the Cubs win column is defined by starting pitching. Any significant down-grade of that pitching for the rest of the season could very well force the team into .500 or worse performance the rest of the way.
Lou Piniella is also not a mysterious communicator. He thinks the team isn’t capable of putting runs on the board consistently. That’s a way of saying the team is flawed or has limited potential. There is a mental side of this that I think makes it very important to keep pace or pull out ahead of the Cardinals. What the clubhouse thinks they can make happen, at some point, does matter.
AboutTheCubs - August 8, 2009
yes, and the cardinals are probably going to finish strong.
they have weak schedule and good, injury free ball club.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
Then why
should we bother with the rest of the season?
See, this is the problem I have with declarations like this one. Over 50-plus games, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Either way.
Maybe your scenario will come to pass. Maybe it won’t.
I’m not making any predictions, except this — it’ll be close the rest of the way. I plan on enjoying it.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Fight .... for your right ..... to party!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Not Bruce
I like this comment. Whenever someone comments like that — it doesn’t seem like we have the firepower this season, or our players have flaws, etc — I think, what are they saying? Is it “forget about it, it ain’t happening?”
I just want to think about, and I REALLY want Lou to think about, what is going on right now, what have we learned this season, and who has something that we can use? I don’t object to “nay-saying” as such, but to “fretting” that we are not good enough. What more can we do with what we have, or how can we get more?
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
agreed.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
Sure as the sun rises in the East
Here’s BLou after a loss. Never after a victory.
If you’re going to shit with the dogs, you need to run with them sometimes, too.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Ha ha, Heilman!
But at least he’s got that one save.
beckmania - August 8, 2009
robinson cano cleared waivers.... i can dream
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
GETITDONE JIM
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
COOL BEANS!!!!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
I see you've added a third phrase to your repetoire.
daver - August 8, 2009
indeed!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
...
shake n bake - August 8, 2009
Cubs Offense
I’m ok with the cubs pitching as a whole .the bigger problem remains when are the cubs hitters going to start hitting regularly not like they have been. once we take the lead the seem to lose focus at the plate. why pull the ball if they are pitching you away go with the pitch.
twig - August 8, 2009
I almost think
that Marshal was the worst pitcher for yesterday, because he relies on those breaking balls so much.
I’ll never suggest that Zambrano should stop hitting, but if his swing is tweaking his back, he should work to change his swing.
This team will do what it does. I’ll root for them. They’re contending, and I don’t see how we can ask for more then that.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
at the very least, maybe take less batting practice if your swing is hurting your back
my question is, the coaches know Z’s back has been a problem. Where were they while he was “reportedly” swinging for the fences in the batting cage.
Illicat - August 8, 2009
What annoys me the most
Is how some inmates continue to run the assylum. Didn’t see yesterday’s game, but Bruce Miles says in his blog that Brenley got on Soriano for lack of hustle last night and that it was justifiable. This after the lazy pick off play on Wednesday.
Any player with less than 5 years of service would have his ass glued to the bench for this, but Soriano will be turned loose again today.
I don’t know that Zambrano hurt his back in BP, but I do know that Piniella was quoted as saying he should be ready to go before the game and that he hadn’t gotten treatment. So Lou will take veiled shots at him in the media, but still treat him like the #1 so that he doesn’t pout.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Isn't that Lou in a nutshell though?
He talks tough, says he will get Jake Fox in the lineup, says he will talk to Z, Soriano, whoever else. He just never does these things and if he does it sure as hell doesn’t work.
nji232 - August 8, 2009
Yes, it is.
But it doesn’t make it any less frustrating.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
This post makes a lot of sense
Lou never does those things, but if he does, they don’t work.
What the hell kind of logic is that?
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
He's saying Lou says he'll do certain things, doesn't actually do them
and that just talking about it doesn’t work.
Illicat - August 8, 2009
I don't think that's what he's saying
“He just never does these things and if he does it sure as hell doesn’t work.” How I read it: He never does these things, except when he DOES do them. And when he does do them, they don’t work, anyway.
Clear as mud.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Last night, it was Len who went off on Soriano first
Len got royally annoyed that Soriano didn’t stretch that single into a double. Bob only commented after Len got upset.
Invalid User - August 8, 2009
I'm not defending Soriano in any way, shape or form
I’m saying we don’t know what goes on in the clubhouse. Consider that before accusing Piniella of “not doing anything.”
Brenly has been very good about being honest — calling out guys like Soriano when warranted, and praising same when warranted.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
I caught Brenly's remark about Soriano...
…and it was quite cutting.
Len said something like, “Soriano really didn’t run hard out of the box there.”
And Bob said dryly, “Does that surprise you?”
daver - August 8, 2009
One of the
reasons I love Bob.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
Brenley loathes everything about Soriano....
…and is quite tactful about getting that across as well
JB 23 - August 8, 2009
I don't know if I agree with the assertion that he "loathes" him
I think he gets fed up with his mental mistakes.
He’s equally hard on Bradley when he’s checking out mentally
Illicat - August 8, 2009
And Brenly is
complimentary when either player does something right. I agree that “loathes” is too strong a word.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
I agree "loathes"
is too strong a word. Bob isn’t afraid to criticize when it is warranted. It’s not just Soriano or Bradley either that he criticizes.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
COOL BEANS
for a Cubs victory today!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Anybody watching the David Ortiz press conference?
I’m almost willing to believe Ortiz, except I don’t because he’s just caught too deep in this lie.
Kudos to A-Rod for growing a pair and admitting it.
nji232 - August 8, 2009
ortiz is the only known user that doesnt have a dbag personality like sosa arod or manny
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
You're right
but it doesn’t make him any less guilty. Still a juice pig. Hence going from the scrap heep of being DFA’d by the Twins to an all-star in Boston in the blink of an eye.
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
i know
but the lack of the dbag personality makes me dislike a little less
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
Since Palmeiro lied to congress
I won’t believe ANY of the guys that deny it in the face of strong evidence.
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
what a tool
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
I'd believe anything Palmeiro said
before I’d believe any of the Congressmen he lied to.
Goodie1969 - August 8, 2009
relevance?
Illicat - August 8, 2009
Irony.
Goodie1969 - August 8, 2009
Somebody finally asks why Ortiz gets the big defense
While Sosa and ARod were left to defend themselves. Of course the answer was BS, but at least the question was asked
nji232 - August 8, 2009
Anybody catch Arroyo's reaction a few days ago?
When he heard Ortiz had tested positive, Arroyo said that he probably had, too. Because of a supplement that was legal but was found to be tainted that he’d stopped using.
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
Good for him too
Instead of trying to hide from the truth, I appreciate the guys who man up and admit what they did.
I also can’t wait until the leak gets to spend 5 years in prison because of this.
nji232 - August 8, 2009
Um actually Arroyo seemed to be making an early defense
He is also very stupid ( my bet) or lying because he said he NOT been told he was on the list. The union TOLD all the 104
players which both A-Rod and Ortiz admit. Either Arroyo KNOWS he is on the list but is claiming he was never told or he is not on the list and probably should have kept his mouth shut.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
vacationing in Boston right now
And I did not find anything believable in Ortiz’s statements. I want to like the guy, but really, the whole approach to this stinks to high heaven of the sort of half truth that the players always throw out WRT steroids. No immediate statement, just a late statement, seemingly after the lawyers had examined all of the evidence that anyone could have, that he had never done any of that stuff (and you go ahead and try to prove otherwise — just like Clemens).
vonde6 - August 8, 2009
Dempster
has HORRIBLE career numbers at Coors (too lazy to get them) so the offense better bring their hitting sticks today, and let’s hope Demp can keep the ball in the lower half of the strike zone and in the yard tonight.
Canadian Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
The horrible career numbers...
… are mostly from two horrific starts, one in 2001, one in 2003, when he was hurt and the Rockies had far different hitters than they have now, and IIRC that was before the balls were stored in the humidor.
In this case, past results are almost completely irrelevant.
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
Wainwright vs. Charlie Morton .... oh god
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
They play the games for a reason
Put on the diaper and let’s see what happens.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
are you calling me a baby boy now?
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Just wondering if any Cardinals fan
was out there saying “Rich Harden vs. Justin Lehr .. oh god.” I don’t think so.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
i was joking/serious.
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Hard to infer
from your post, but … your Beastie Boys reference above buys you some credit. :)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
chea!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
first, harden hasn't been as good as wainwright.
second, they were absolutely talking about how the reds would probably lay down. they didn’t, and i hope the pirates don’t either.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
get used to it. this is going to be a tough week.
buckmulligan - August 8, 2009
HELL YEAH!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
COOL BEANS!
daver - August 8, 2009
IT'S HAPPENING!?!?!?!?!?
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
ADAM LIND
CaliCub - August 8, 2009
ERIC HANNA
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Eric Hanna strikes! Aaron Hill FC!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Part of me thinks it would be quite interesting to have nomar back with the cubs
the other part is just confusion.
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
I think both parts are confusion...=)
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
Other news
Looks like the Cubs game will be on the MLB network. Cool, I get to watch in HD.
LT - August 8, 2009
Z MRI DL?
just noticed this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4385714
truelinkfence - August 8, 2009
Zambrano to the DL
Jeff Stevens to be recalled.
Josh Timmers - August 8, 2009
i officially hate this season
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
he could only miss one start
and have another pushed back a day.
shake n bake - August 8, 2009
yeah but when z comes back someone else will land on the DL
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
With the Cubs luck
They’ll force a one game playoff with the Cardinals, be down 3-2 in the bottom of the 9th, and see Ramirez hit a walkoff HR with Lee on base to win the game, except that Lee breaks his leg while jumping up and down to celebrate and Ramirez passes him. The Cardinals win the game on appeal.
It’s just been that kind of season
berselius - August 8, 2009
maybe it'll be Miles?
shake n bake - August 8, 2009
only players who help the cubs land on the DL with real injuries
with exception to andy white
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
They could very well make this retroactive
So he’ll only be out 10 days.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
That's what I think will happen
I’m assuming that Stevens will come up for Shark to bolster the bullpen this weekend, and Marshall will take the start on Wednesday against the Phillies.
Did anybody go to the Des Moines airport at 6am today to see who was getting on the United flight to Denver?
Invalid User - August 8, 2009
Never mind
didn’t read up the thread.
Invalid User - August 8, 2009
Oh, Jesus Christos!
When is this ever going to stop?
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
nope
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
F
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
IRE TR
shake n bake - August 8, 2009
I'm gonna recommend this because I'm still laughing 6 minutes later.
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
Ha!
That is awesome.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
U
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
start commenting here after we win, BLou!
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
C
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
UBS ARE GREAT!
Al Yellon - August 8, 2009
K
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
Keep the faith
You knew this wasn’t going to be easy, right?
Curtain Jerker - August 8, 2009
It was easy last year
and look how that ended.
You never know. Seriously. Hang in there.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
That's the nicest thing you've ever said, Bruce! Awweeeee.
dtpollitt - August 8, 2009
You haven't learned by now
that all this bluster is just a front for a marshmallow of a heart? Oh, come on … :)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Rec'd
Even thinking about stealing it for my signature….
Allie - August 8, 2009
afreakinmen.
drewishdrewid - August 8, 2009
just think about the COOL BEANS you're going to have!
lexmarklover - August 8, 2009
Stevens now has enough frequent flyer miles
For a trip to Hong Kong. I hope he waits till November to take it.
Doggie Stalker - August 8, 2009
Weather's better
in Hong Kong in November, anyway. (One of my favorite cities on earth.)
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
Yeah, pretty hot most of the rest of the year
Shanghai Badger - August 8, 2009
When it's hot and humid
it can be God-awful, particularly because of all the buildings and people. But it’s still a magnificent place.
Not Bruce Froemming - August 8, 2009
I went to bed early last night (about 9:30)
Because I had to start working today at 7 AM. I was in the blogs until then, but it seems I didn’t miss much.
Let’s get them tonight! (another early night for me, must work tomorrow at 8 AM)
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
the way I see it
if our top two guys are on base 6 out of (their first) 8 appearances (of course it would be nice if they had 10-12 appearances in a game), we have a high probability of success in a game. Conversely, if our 3-4-5 go 0 for anything, we are likely to lose.
My guess is that Lee/Ramirez/Soto are unlikely to keep going “0-” so if Fukudome and Bradley stay reasonably productive at the top, this is a batting order that has real promise. Me likey.
We really need this game tonight as the alternative would be awful: going into Sunday with a 3 game losing streak and at best, the chance for a 5-5 road trip. Best we beat Marquis tonight and get the MoJo back—pronto!
LAcarl519 - August 8, 2009
Agree. The middle of the order has been very good with the last few games excepted. They'll be back.
The (new) top two are doing their job. Hey, this is Colorado, let’s score early and often. Hats off to Marquis for his season so far, but let’s chase him early!!
BleedsbluinMI - August 8, 2009
I liked the
(new) top two last night. We just need to bring them home.
sue369 - August 8, 2009
i was on vacation in norfolk, va
but i am back & ready to root for the cubs. big push towards the playoffs. many pretenders have already fallen
brian custer - August 8, 2009
CALL YOUR SONS, CALL YOUR DAUGHTERS, CALL YOUR FRIENDS, CALL YOUR NEIGHBORS
CC SABATHIA HAS A PERFECT GAME GOING TO THE 5TH
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
Perfect Game - OVER
However, the No Hitter is still strong.
sanantonecub - August 8, 2009
CALL YOUR SONS, CALL YOUR DAUGHTERS, CALL YOUR FRIENDS, CALL YOUR NEIGHBORS
CC SABATHIA HAS A NO HITTER GOING INTO THE 6TH
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
bye bye no no
jesus christos - August 8, 2009
No-hitter over.
Red Sox single with two outs in the sixth.
Vermont Cubs Fan - August 8, 2009
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