It's been more than six years since the Cubs have walked as many times -- 12 -- as they did last night. That game, a 15-2 win over the Mets on March 31, 2003 in New York, featured a career day (two HR, seven RBI) from a man who appeared as a pinch-hitter for the Brewers on Tuesday night -- Corey Patterson.
Tuesday night's game was that kind of game. The Cubs beat the Brewers 13-7, scoring almost as many runs as the Bears had points (15) on Sunday, and it got closer when a former football player, Jeff Samardzija, given up two consolation runs to Milwaukee in the ninth inning.
More on walks: only six games since 1954 have featured more walks by a Cubs team, and only one of those -- a 20-9 win over the Giants on August 13, 1959 -- had even one HBP. Last night's game featured three. Two of them came in the Cubs' five-run sixth inning, and the second of those, to Aramis Ramirez, "drove" in a run. (Milton Bradley also got a RBI on a HBP, in the seventh.) The Cubs scored eight runs in their last three innings on only four hits and the 13-run outburst, the second-biggest of 2009, was accomplished with only one home run. The roundtripper came off the bat of Geovany Soto, who, perhaps better late than never, is beginning to hit like the Rookie of the Year we saw in 2008. Geo has started only seven games in September, but is hitting .360/.452/.800 in those games, with two homers and 12 RBI.
Even more on walks: the Cubs had two different players, Ryan Theriot and Derrek Lee, who walked four times. That's nowhere near a record, but Theriot, after striking out and singling in his first two times up, walked four consecutive times (off four different pitchers), and Lee was two-for-two (a single and a double) in his non-base-on-balls plate appearances. The Cubs overall sent 50 batters to the plate, but had only 34 official at-bats (the other 16: the 12 walks, the three HBP, and a deep fly ball to CF by Carlos Zambrano that went for a sacrifice fly).
Speaking of Z, Paul Sullivan's game story criticizes him for alleged antics during the Brewers' five-run fifth inning, after which Carlos was pulled (having thrown 103 pitches):
But Zambrano's histrionics overshadowed everything. During the five-run fifth, he showed up outfielder Bobby Scales by making faces and waving his hands when Scales didn't throw home on Ryan Braun's run-scoring single. Pitching coach Larry Rothschild came out to calm down Zambrano, but the pitcher made no eye contact during the visit.
I dunno. I didn't see it that way, although I also wondered why Scales made no attempt to throw to the plate on Braun's hit. It was a horrendous inning -- all the Brewers' action came after two were out and no one on base, and Z threw 39 pitches -- but the last two runs weren't really Z's fault. Ryan Theriot fumbled what should have been an inning-ending ground ball by Casey McGehee (after Z had intentionally walked Prince Fielder to load the bases), and Mike Cameron drove in the final pair of runs after that. Theriot's blunder was originally ruled an error, but later changed to a hit by the official scorer. It should have remained an error; a major league shortstop should make that play.
I doth, as the saying goes, protest too much. Z was dominant for the first four innings, allowing only a triple in the RF gap to Brewers rookie Alcides Escobar and hitting 95+ on the Wrigley Field boards showing pitch speed several times. It could have, and probably should have, been an easy six-inning quality start and win for Z. Instead, the win went to Aaron Heilman, who had an efficient scoreless sixth inning. Since August 12, in his last nine appearances Heilman has thrown 12 innings with nine strikeouts and a 1.50 ERA and more importantly, has issued only one walk during those nine outings. In fact, before Samardzija came in during garbage time, the bullpen did an excellent job of keeping the Brewers down while the Cubs were piling up walks and runs -- three hitless innings with only one walk from Heilman, Kevin Gregg and Esmailin Caridad.
An announced crowd of 38,986 included maybe 8,000 no-shows, as the ballpark filled up late despite a windier and slightly cooler night than Monday. Those who did come were treated to an enjoyable, if rather lengthy (three hours, 20 minutes) victory, the Cubs' 10th in 14 games in September. Do not give up, my friends. The Rockies lost again last night and the Cubs crept to within 5.5 games of the wild-card lead. It's still a longshot -- but possible. Keep the faith and go Cubs.
0 recs | 572 comments
Only 4 back in the loss column in the WC.
Stranger things have happened in this game folks.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
4 game set with Giants seems really big right now
Maybe for once their luck against +.500 teams and playing on the road can and will turn around?
ak123 - September 16, 2009
I still have hope, but it remains a VERY long shot
The Rockies are 82-64 with 16 games left.
The Cubs are 75-68 with 19 games left.
If the Rockies go 8-8, the Cubs would have to finish 15-4 to tie.
Additionally, SF, ATL, FLA couldn’t get hot either.
Lets say that the Cubs finish the year at 16-3 the rest of the way. (Which would be pretty incredible.) That means that the four teams in front could not be better than:
COL : 9-7
SF : 11-5
FLA : 14-3
ATL : 15-3
Obviously the Cubs can catch FLA and ATL without too much trouble. But they have to get white hot to catch COL and really hot to catch SF at this point. If the Cubs are are more realistic 13-5 then COL must finish no better than 7-9 and SF no better than 9-7 the rest of the way.
I just don’t see it. Sorry guys. I do hope, but I fear it is a fools errand.
But we are Cubs fans and I will pay attention and cheer and root and hope until we are mathematically eliminated.
Archie - September 16, 2009
Thanks...
I’m happy you took the time to figure this out and not me.
EamuCanoli - September 16, 2009
You are correct
That’s why this is really “1 game at a time” time.
It’s not likely, but if the Cubs won 6 of the next 8, the Rox lost today, 2 in Az and 2 in SD, and SF got swept by LA and lost 2 to Az, the Cubs would go into the SF series down 2 to COL and 0.5 to SF.
Again, not likely, but then the records needed with games remaining looks a lot more doable.
In other words, yeah, I don’t see it, either. Check back in a week or so . . . .
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Yup
Exactly. Long shot.
“So you’re saying there is a chance.”
I tend to agree with Jim Carrey. As long as there is a shot, I’m still hopin.
Archie - September 16, 2009
As long shots go....
….it was a substantially longer shot 48 hours ago.
Another 2 days like this, and we’re suddenly in it.
D98 - September 16, 2009
Another 4, more likely
3.5 out with no games against the front-runners is still a big deficit at this point.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
But there ARE games vs. one of the teams ahead of the Cubs.
Four with the Giants, who the Cubs trail by three (two in the loss column).
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
The Giants aren't the front-runners
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
No, but...
…. they’re getting there.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Sure, but the Cubs still have to pass the Rockies
(And Braves and Marlins, but for the Cubs to catch the others, they’d likely have to play so well that those two become irrelevant.)
The Cubs have 0 games left with the Rockies – whether they are 1st or 2nd. It’s still a tall order at this point.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Oh, I know that.
But this has been a strange, streaky year, not just for the Cubs but for many teams — including the Rockies.
Just keep winning.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Agreed.
But it’ll take more than 2 days like the last two to make it seem less, well, ridiculous.
If they can cut it to 3 as of Sunday night (a tall order) and pass at least one team, it starts to get interesting. I just don’t see them taking 3 of 4 in SF.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
The Cubs have not rattled off a long, sustained winning streak this season.
While there’s no prior evidence to show that this team can do it now, you never know. Winning streaks often come unexpectedly. So, what’s to say it can’t happen? It would be one of the more remarkable comebacks in the game…
Zeke - September 16, 2009
It is possible
I still check the scoreboard.
However, I’m also trying to be realistic. Remember who they are playing right now – PGH, CIN, MIL. And don’t forget how bad they looked against the Mets, Padres and Nationals recently.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Sure. I don't think anyone's getting their hopes up until there is a TANGIBLE chance...
…and we’re still aways away from that- if ever.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Agreed.
The Brewers aren’t a bad team, either — they’ve still got some pretty good bats. Just win your games and see what happens.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Their record says they are bad.
Again, I’m not saying it’s impossible. Just trying to be realistic.
And no, I won’t come on here and crow if the Cubs lose 3 or 4 to SF . . . I’ll be disappointed if that happens. But not surprised.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I saw the Brewers
in person three times this past weekend as they swept the D’Backs and they looked pretty good to me. That doggone McGahee absolutely killed us. But, having said that, they definitely are a bunch of free swingers. I don’t think they are a bad team, but I do think the Cubs are a tough match-up for them. Their pitching is not deep and they do not do the little things you need to do to win a lot of ball games (see Cardinals and Dodgers).
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Considering
the fact that the Giants are winning at a .667 clip at home, I think if the Cubs avoid losing 3 out of 4, then that would be surprising.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
I agree, but am still hoping Corey Patterson gets a start.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
The Series in SF
shapes up to be an intriguing one. The Giants are a BAD offensive team that really struggles to manufacture runs. But, with Lincecum, Cain and even Zito, lately, they have stayed in the WC chase, although they are prone to go into an offensive funk at any time, despite hanging 10 on the Rockies last night.
I don’t know how the series in SF will turn out, but I am fairly certain you will see close games. The bad new is that the Giants have the best home record (48-25) in the National League.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The Cubs' starting pitching can match up well with the Giants'.
Like you, I would expect close, low-scoring games.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
The pitching match-ups
will be huge, IMO
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Agreed.
As of now, it looks this way:
Thurs 9/24: Penny vs Dempster
Fri 9/25: Lincecum vs Zambrano
Sat 9/26: Zito vs Harden
Sun 9/27: Cain vs Wells
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Wow.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Lots of 2-1 games there
Except Lincecum vs Z. That one will be 0-0 in the 7th and then SF will score 15 on a Z implosion.
Archie - September 16, 2009
Unless Zambrano gets mad
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
*earlier
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Like in the 2nd
Archie - September 16, 2009
at first glance...
that looks like W L W and a push. I like it.
I kinda wish Lilly were in the mix, but if that means Lilly shuts down the Brew Crew on the 23rd putting us in a good mood for the flight out west, I can live with that.
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Don't know if you saw Zito
last night, but he was filthy…and his curveball had the Rockies talking to themselves. He has given up 2 ERs or less in 8 out his last 10 outings.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
I watched from the 5th inning on
I cant ascertain whether he’s fully back to his former self quite yet. But that 10-to-4 curve ball sure looked filthy. However, he threw a few hangers that looked—and were—rather hittable.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
No
“However, he threw a few hangers that looked—and were—rather hittable.”
His numbers over the past 10 games would suggest otherwise.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Al, the Cubs' starting pitching matches up with ANYONE
Hell, they had an ERA below 2 on the SD/LA trip. They simply don’t hit!
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Rockies and Giants
I was at the game last Saturday in SD v. Rockies and the Rockies look lethargic and a little dispirited. The Padres were enjoying kicking the Rockies around. The Rockies are not doing any better against the Giants in SF. Have my tickets for the four Cubs/Giants series and I suspect that those games will be pivotal for us.
wccubfan - September 16, 2009
As long as we're playing this game:
ATL remaining schedule (my guess at wins in parentheses):
2 v NYM (1)
3 v PHI (1)
3 @ NYM (2)
3 @ WAS (2)
3 v FLA (1)
4 v WAS (3)
That would give them 86 wins.
FLA:
1 @ STL (0)
4 @ CIN (3)
3 v PHI (1)
3 v NYM (2)
3 @ ATL (2)
3 @ PHI (1)
That would give them 86 wins, as well.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Dugg and recommended for truth.
dtpollitt - September 16, 2009
Who is this Dugg you speak of?
daver - September 16, 2009
Dugg!
dtpollitt - September 16, 2009
Funny
Archie is a nickname. My real first name is Doug. :)
Archie - September 16, 2009
15-4 is entirely within the realm of possibility
Look at the rest of the schedule:
Finish the sweep of the Brewers. Take 2 of 3 at StL. 2 of 3 at Mil. Split SF. Then come home and win out against Pgh and Ari. As long as the team keeps on hitting, the starting pitching can sustain a streak like this, easy.
Taking 2 out of 3 from StL is key. If we don’t do that, then we’d almost have to take 3 out of 4 from SF and that would be extremely difficult.
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Pipe Dream
n/t
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Yep, forget the blue kool-aid - Hopium* anyone?
( * credit Tribune’s John Kass for coming up with that word, though his intent had nothing to do with the Cubs…)
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Soto and I are IN!
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Exactly
Winning streaks are odd, though. The 2007 Rockies went 14-1 to close the season and then 7-0 in their first two postseason series. Before all of that, they were 76-72 and their longest winning streak prior to that was 6. Then they went 21-1.
It still could happen.
Archie - September 16, 2009
That's the spirit!
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
It won't
But it still could…
:)
Archie - September 16, 2009
People always cite
the Rockies run in 2007 as an example of what can happen, but when you look closer at it, it was a bit of a unique circumstance. In that run, the Rockies beat the Dodgers 7 times and took 6 out of 7 from the Padres. That’s more than half of their wins in that streak against just two teams.
The Dodgers were in an absolute free fall that September, losing 12 of their last 15. The Padres also struggled down the stretch and had several key injuries (including Milton Bradley). The Rockies also had amazing good fortune in consistently missing their opponents ace pitcher, and they had the bulk of their games at home.
It was an amazing streak, but not one that is likely to happen again soon, unless the stars line up again like they did for the Rockies that year – and that happens once in a blue moon.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Sure, but the schedule does line up pretty well for the Cubs
Milwaukee could just as easily be that team in free-fall, allowing the Cubs to win 7 games against them down the stretch.
Add 3 with Pittsburgh, and there’s 10 wins right there.
Is it likely to happen? No. But there’s a chance. And it’s gotten better each of the last few days.
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
But
there is 4 in SF and 3 in St. Louis, both of whom have outstanding home records, that kind of offsets that. Also, the D’Backs series at the end of the year is no gimmee. The D’Backs own the Cubs and beat them 2 out of 3 earlier this year when they couldn’t beat anybody. The poster that assumes a sweep is dreaming, especially if Haren pitches one of the games, which is likely. The D’Backs love hitting against Lilly.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The D'backs only own the Cubs in Phoenix.
Or have you forgotten that the Cubs swept the D’backs at Wrigley last year at a time when Arizona came in at 21-9 and everyone was already anointing them a 2008 playoff tem?
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I remember that.
People were jumping on the Diamondbacks bandwagon just as they had jumped on the Mets bandwagon earlier last year.
That’s why they play the game. Arizona may have started 21-9, but they faded after the Cubs series and missed the playoffs.
Vermont Cubs Fan - September 16, 2009
Also
the Dodgers caught fire in September after they acquired some guy named Manny. The D’Backs finished 2 games behind L.A.
None of this stuff happens in a vacuum, which is a point I think gets missed here a lot.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Also I might add
that same Dodger team that the D’Backs finished two games behind, swept the best Cubs team in recent memory right out of the playoffs.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
No, I didn't forget
Nor did I forget that the year before, the D’Backs took 3 out of 4 from the Cubs at Wrigley, including a playoff game.
Also, in 2008, the Cubs missed Webb and 2 of the 3 were against a rookie pitcher making like, his 3rd or 4th start and a pitcher who was later released.
Sometimes you gotta look closer to get the full picture, especially when using a small sample.
The bigger picture is the D’Backs are 50-33 (.602) all time against the Cubs, that’s ownership. http://tinyurl.com/cjp7au
To expect the Cubs to sweep is a real stretch, which was my original point.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
At the same time...
… the D’backs are having a miserable season, second-worst in their history (excluding the first, expansion season).
Since September 1 they are 4-10 and are 6-15 in their last 21 road games.
This should be a series the Cubs should win, or possibly sweep.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
The D'Backs won
only one series in the first 7 weeks of the season this year.
It was against the Cubs.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
At a time when the Cubs were struggling.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Correct
and right in the middle of one of their worst stretches in this miserable season for the D’Backs, they stepped out of character and beat the Cubs 2 out of 3, taking the 2 games by a combined 17-2 score.
Even in the horrible 111 loss 2004 season, the D’Backs managed to take 4 out of 6 from the Cubs. That is what ownership is all about. You beat a team when it makes no sense.
BTW, did you know that the D’Backs managed to post winning records in 7 out of their first 10 seasons?
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The D'backs own the Cubs in Arizona
The Cubs swept Arizona at Wrigley last year, IIRC.
Asking for 2 of 3 in St. Louis and a split in San Francisco isn too much to ask, given how this team has played in September.
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
And suddenly the Cardinals look beatable.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
And the Cubs are finding different ways to win games
Both Monday’s win (low-scoring) and Tuesday (taking pitches) are games they haven’t won all year.
The odds are still long, but the Cubs are making it very interesting. 5.5 games out of the Wild Card doesn’t seem like the longest of shots now that they’re playing well.
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
Did they play well last night, or
did they get a gift?
12 walks and 3 HBP . . . you damn well better win.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
OK, so they did.
Let’s do it again tonight.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I agree with that
I don’t much care how the Cubs win, if they win.
Again, I’m just saying that doesn’t make me think they can sweep the Cards or win 3 from the Giants.
I don’t think they are good enough. But I hope I am wrong, and I plan to watch to find out.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
And I think that most people are here are realists and do know that it is still a long shot
BUT! Things are shaping up, the team is playing well, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we are starting to realize our potential as a ballclub.
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Well, win tonight and see what happens.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
And tomorrow :) and they next 5 days :)
heine41 - September 16, 2009
*the
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Just Win Baby! - Al Davis
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Probably a bit of both
Would the Cubs of May/June and August found a way to manufacture some of those runs or come up with a timely hit?
It certainly didn’t feel like that kind of run-building and crooked-number innings were happening earlier in the year.
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
Cards are losing, 3-0, as we speak
though it’s early (top 2).
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
Catching the Marlins is more realistic
Just sayin’
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I'd agree.
Got to start with the Fish and Braves, which can happen soon.
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
Because
they are 5-5 in their last 10, which leaves then 34-15 since they acquired Matt Holliday?
You’re grasping at straws, Al.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
no he is not
He simply stated that they are looking beatable, which when you go 5-5 you do.
You don’t look beatable when you go a month and not have a game gained on you by teams trailing you in the division
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Semantics
It did come across like the Cards are coming back to the pack.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Well, when you lose 4/5 and possible 5/6 losing 4 games off your lead.....
aren’t you coming back to the pack?
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Right now, they've lost 3 of a 11.5 game lead
That’s not really coming back to the pack.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
To those teams trailing and crawling through the desert, it looks like it...
They’ll take any sign of water they can get- even if it is a mirage…
Zeke - September 16, 2009
I'll take 4 of a 9.5 game lead...
hell. thats like half way?!
heine41 - September 16, 2009
That's not what they've gotten
3/11.5 = 26%
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
im referring to the WC
heine41 - September 16, 2009
We were talking about the Cardinals coming back
No one mentioned the Rockies coming back to the pack.
Actually, the Rockies never really pulled away.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Well, at least they're heading in the right direction...
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
I don't know that they are
As someone else wrote, it probably would have been better for the Cubs for STL to beat up on ATL and FLA.
9 of the Cardinals’ last 12 are against Houston, Cincinatti and Milwaukee . . . anyone here really think they’ll lose 8-10 of those?
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
You don't
get extra credit for winning by 12 instead of 7. The Cardinals have gone into victory lap mode.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
victory lap mode?
You go into victory lap mode two weeks before the most important games of the year? with a magic number of 10?
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Yeah, that can be dangerous...
… as the article you (azjazzman) posted indicates.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Right
As we know from last year, momentum is night a switch you can flip
heine41 - September 16, 2009
I thought momentum was tonight's starting pitcher...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Your collective perception
of what happened in last year’s NLDS differs markedly from mine. People on here seem to think the Cubs lost a series they should have won. My perception is that the Cubs ran into a buzzsaw that had played lights out in September riding the wave of Manny-mania, and it wouldn’t have made any difference how Piniella managed down the stretch, their goose was cooked.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
No my perception is that
The Cubs ran into a RED hot Dodgers team rolling for a month of Manny-mania and the Cubs
were doing the exact opposite in ‘resting starters’
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Well, as I said
Lou could’ve done it six different ways and the outcome would have been the same. The Dodgers were never headed in that series…the Cubs never had a lead after inning 4 of Game One.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
He could have yanked Dempster after the 15th walk...
or started Lilly in a game.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Yup, he could have
and the result would have been the same. Note that the game that Lilly would have started was 3-1.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Your powers of predicting the past are amazing.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
not to mention his penchant for shooting down the future
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
So sorry
I know you guys have a tough time deaiing with reality.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
not really
actually, it’s pretty funny watching you singlehandedly trying to extinguish all the flames of hope these waning days of the season. Almost like it’s your sworn duty or something.
“Must destroy hope.”
“Crush fans’ spirit.”
“Step on puppies’ tails”
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Yeah
I guess this will get me on the watch list for potential banning.
Instead of refuting anything I say, you question my motives or attack me. I am just trying to inject some common sense and I am accused of raining on people’s parades. I guess I can live with that.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
more of an observation than an attack
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Tell me something
how many 1-0 games has Lilly won in his career? Hint: He’s only pitched two shutouts .
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
We get it...you declare that we were destined to lose last year.
Some of us disagree. I guess that makes stupid in your eyes. The whole thing is silly anyway, I’m done debating about what might have happened in the past.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Again I apologize
I know that when logic and common sense are introduced into these threads, the typical response is “I’m done”.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Now you're just being a ridiculous jerk.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Which just proves
my point from yesterday about the intolerance here for any point of view that doesn’t fit the accepted company line. Sort of like Nazi Germany.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Lemme guess...
we’re all also racists too.
If you can’t see the lunacy of taking the position that the Cubs were going to lose “no matter what”, then what sort of “logic and/or common sense” could I use to dissuade you?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Well, that depends
If you criticize Milton Bradley, regardless of the merit of your argument, to some that makes you racist . . .
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Okay
when the conversation takes a turn into this area, I’m done. I don’t know why you guys can’t have a normal baseball discussion without dragging racism and personal attacks into it.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
LOL....who brought up Nazi Germany again?
Do you ever strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Hey, you're right!
“I’m done” is the typical response. You just did it yourself!
daver - September 16, 2009
Suit yourself
I wasn’t commenting on you or SWL with that post.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
i didn't see any personal attack
he is simply pointing out that there is no point in having said “logical baseball discussion” with you because you feel there is no way the Cubs can come back. You want us to drink your negative or “realist” kool-aid without acknowledging that our "hopeful the Cubs might just pull it off " kool-aid even exists or has any merit
heine41 - September 16, 2009
I guess in your
bizarro world calling someone a “ridiculous jerk” isn’t personal attack. And for the record, my bringing up Nazi Germany was in the context of the suppression of ideas that do not conform, not in the racist context. That was somebody else.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
would you consider calling my world bizarro
a personal attack?
heine41 - September 16, 2009
No I wouldn't
n/t
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
then i think you are being a little sensitive
to being called a sensitive jerk
heine41 - September 16, 2009
*ridiculous jerk
heine41 - September 16, 2009
In my "bizzaro world"...
disguising an insult inside an “apology” is being a jerk.
And just so you don’t make the mistake again….the suppression of ideas is not going to be the most popular topic associated with Nazi Germany. You could have chosen any number of better options….China, North Korea, The Borg, etc…
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Daleks, Cybermen . . .
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Oprah Fans.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
In the context I used it
it was entirely appropriate and fitting. And with everyone subsequent post you prove it. Or were the book burnings a figment of history’s collective imaginations? You are the one that is trying to twist what I said into something else.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Oh I acknowledge that it exists
this thread is ample proof of that. As far as it having merit, yes, you are pretty much right about that.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
If the "I'm done" was intentional...
…that was pretty funny. A tip of the “wry humor” hat to you, azjazzman. And I’m being totally serious.
If it was a freudian slip, well… just pretend it was intentional.
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Was meant
more in an ironic way than a Freudian slip.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
No
I do not see the lunacy at all. And I certainly am not going to just take your word for it. How can you possible think that the Cubs were even in that series last year? It was about as dominating as any 3 game sweep I have seen. Yet. you say I am delusional when I say that the Cubs were toast. What possible factual information can you provide that contradicts that?
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
It's subjective either way
The guess here is if Dempster doesn’t allow the slam in game 1, the Cubs win that game.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
That's an interesting guess
but not one that is supportable in any way by logic and common sense. The score of that game was 7-2. Do you honestly feel that even if you take the slam out, that the Cubs would have held the Dodgers to less than 2 runs?
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
If someone did honestly feel that way...
how is it any different than you feeling that they wouldn’t have?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
The evidence
of the rest of Game 1 and the rest of the series, where the Cubs were not competitive at all. If it was just a case of take out one play and then the substance of the rest of the series was highly competitive, that would be one thing. But, you and I both know that was not even close to being the case.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You do?
So you don’t think that the attitude changed following the homerun?
I do.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I think that i could find 100,000k people to agree with you
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Or if say,
DeRosa fields a routine DP ground ball to end the inning in Game 2 instead of kicking it and opening the floodgates?
Bill Potter - September 16, 2009
He was destined to boot that ball...
there was nothing anyone could have done to stop it. We were predestined to lose regardless. If he’d made the play, someone else would have done something else or not done something else to lose the game.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Why even play the games?!?!?!?!?!
WHYY!
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Well here let me help you with that
why don’t we just say substitute the Phillirs for the Cubs in the NLDS and then, yes, I do think the outcome might have been different. That really isn’t a whole lot sillier than saying what you guys are saying.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Your opinion and ours are merely 2 sides of the same coin.
I don’t know why you can’t see that.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
So you're saying that if that batter is out
That the other events unfold exactly the same way that they did?
Really?
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
SVP Ryen Rascillo would be very disappointed to hear this
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Of course I'm not saying that
but I am saying that they played 27 innings and with the one or two brief exceptions the Cubs never gave any indication that they belonged on the same field as the Dodgers. If you think taking away one swing of the bat changes all that, welcome to Never Never Land.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
I think one swing of the bat sent all of Cubs Nation
into here we go again mode
heine41 - September 16, 2009
I think you are vastly underestimating
The influence of emotion on athletic competition.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I think you are vastly
underestimating how throughly the Dodgers dominated the Cubs in every facet that makes up a baseball game.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
This is a Kafka novel.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Written on a postage stamp.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
LOL, nice comparison.
You just officially crossed the line from “defensive” to “irrational.”
daver - September 16, 2009
You just joined the BCB SS daver!
Your armband will be mailed to you ASAP.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
I think there should be a
BCB S.S. Daver.
Instead of a naked woman, the bow would have a mamochicken.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
"Can I see your papers?"
“Let me see your papers! Without papers you will be banned outright!”
daver - September 16, 2009
"No ticket"
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Argh. Picture fail.
Was Indiana Jones on the blimp.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
He's on a boat.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
I agree with you
The only way we could have saved our selves would have been to play the last two weeks of that season as if the playoffs weren’t starting, This doesn’t include getting our rotation set up to the way we wanted it.
Also, not beating the snot out of NYM and then losing to the Crew would have helped a lot as well.
heine41 - September 16, 2009
This is what I mean
you guys want to play the “what if” game and that does not apply in this case. What if only works when you are right on the brink of winning, but not when you are completely dominated. None of these things you mention would have made enough of a difference to change the outcome.
i.e., “what if” to your heart’s content over 2003. But, when it comes to 2008, there is nothing to do but accept your fate.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
That, to me, was the key
Although, they didn’t beat the “snot” out of the Mets. But to not go all out on game 162, to force a one-game playoff, was absurd. 1 inning per pitcher, indeed.
The Mets were in total disarray at the end of last year, and that should have been the opponent the Cubs were trying to get.
In no way would I advocate losing to the Mets on purpose earlier in the week, but try to beat the Brewers, too.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
This is my hindsight assessment, too.
Lou should’ve played that Brewers series like a playoff series.
daver - September 16, 2009
And then
you guys would be whining over how Lou used up all his pitching before the playoffs.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Nope
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Not really.
There were TWO days off before the first playoff game, plenty of time for everyone to rest.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Again you predict the past like a shaman!
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
I thought it going in
Of course, being a non-Brewer fan from SE WI may have had something to do with it. But I knew the Mets were a mess.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
and i didn't mean beat the snot out of them
but we put the proverbial nail in the coffin
heine41 - September 16, 2009
The Brewers series was worse to me
Because it’s not acceptable to lay down for the other team (Mets).
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
agreed of course
heine41 - September 16, 2009
The truth is somewhere in the middle
Even if STL loses today and the Cubs win the next 2, the Cubs would have to sweep to be within 4 games with 14 to play…this weekend is not the most important series of the year to the Cardinals.
However, I doubt they are in victory lap mode. Sometimes good teams lose games. It happens.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
of course they do
All im saying is you play a full 162 game season, if you want to CROWN "EM! THEN CROWN ‘EM! but i’ll wait and see how the next 18 days play out.
Now i truly believe there is no way we catch the Cards, but the WC is becoming more palpable.
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Sure looks like it to me
Monday, La Russa starts Wellemeyer, who was terrible earlier this year and got pulled from the rotation. He manipulates his rotation so that Pinero faces Josh Johnson, who will get some Cy Young consideration and who LaRussa knows they probably won’t beat in any event.
“Victory Lap Mode” might be a little strong, but Tony is definitely managing as if his team has an insurmountable lead, which in truth, barring an unprecedented collapse, they do.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Not what I meant.
As noted above, the Cardinals went 29-10 after they acquired Holliday. They’re not looking quite that unbeatable now.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Ok, fair enough
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Nobody
thought they were going to stay on that pace.
But, the point is, they don’t need to. Everyone, especially Tony LaRussa, understands this.
It would’ve been better for the Cubs if the Cardinals had put up a little better effort against the Braves and Marlins. But, the fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the Cubs are in a better position to beat the Cardinals.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
5-5
is just fine when you have a double digit lead. In case you haven’t noticed, LaRussa is already managing like he has the division won…resting his bullpen, giving players days off, etc.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Hmmm.
Seems like the Cubs had a manager who did that late in the season with a playoff-bound team.
How’d that work out?
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
They won the division
Doesn’t help the Cubs much if the Cardinals get swept in the NLDS
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Give the fact
that Tony is cruising to his 12th Division Title, has 5 pennants, and 2 WS Championships, I think it is safe to assume that he knows what he is doing.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
As most managers would, up by 11 1/2 games...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Seems foolish with a double digit magic number
also speaks to their depth, no?
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Magic Numbers
tend to shrink fast. You can lose and still reduce the magic number. That is why it is so hard to jump over four teams. You might gain on one or two teams, but not on all four. It’s great that the Cubs pick up a game on the Rockies when the Giants beat them. But, the Giants are ahead of the Cubs too.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Right, but...
… at least the Cubs can beat the Giants head-to head.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
True
but, that doesn’t change the fact that when the Giants are playing the Rockies, as they have done a lot lately, the Cubs cannot gain on both of them at the same time. That is why I never understood why people on here thought that it was a good thing for the Cubs that the Rockies and Giants played a lot of games against each other when the Cubs were trailing both.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Because someone has to lose
Yes, someone has to win, as well, but if the Cubs win, they are guaranteed to gain on someone.
With the Giants in 2nd, it’s better for the Cubs if SF beats COL.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I don't agree
After today, since about the 20th of August, which is about when the Cubs started to turn their attention to the WC race, the Rockies and Giants will have played 11 times. If the Giants win today, the Rockies will be 3-8 against the Giants, but 15-5 in other games. The Giants will be 8-3 against the Rockies, and 6-8 in other games. I can’t imagine a more challenging scenario for the Cubs (or any team trailing in the Wild Card race) to make up ground on these two teams.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
How can you not agree?!
Its pure baseball logic that you want the team in second to win despite how challenging the comeback may be.
We get it dude, you don’t think it will happen.
heine41 - September 16, 2009
that would be great
if the team leading would also lose the non head to head games. But then, at some point, the team in second becomes the team leading. I am simply pointing out that those that think it is great that the Giants are beating up on the Rockies are losing sight of the overall picture. The Cubs have four teams in front of them for the Wild Card, and they have had for about month, and they haven’t passed ANY of them yet.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
i would much rather the team beating up the other....
BE SAN FRANSICO!!!! THE TEAM WE HAVE FOUR GAMES AGAINST!!!
We control our own destiny this way.
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Just keep winning!
That’s all you can do is keep on winning. But it’s nice to see the Rockies drop a few games. KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!
DKT - September 16, 2009
Agreed DKT!
Stranger things have happened. They just have to keep winning. GO CUBS GO!!
Tangled Up In Blue - September 16, 2009
Yes,
Wouldn’t it be sweet if the Cubs made some sort of miraculous comeback late in the season and grab the Wild Card?
All these other teams have written their own history, why can’t the Cubs do the same thing?
CubFanSince1970 - September 16, 2009
I think we finally found a way for Milton to drive in runs: HBP
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
Props to DLee for going over 100 RBI's.
cubswynn - September 16, 2009
Thanks.
Forgot to mention that among all the walks. He needs seven more for a career high.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
He's having an incredible year...
An outside chance at 40 HRs, over 100 RBIs, hitting over .300… and he didn’t start hitting until, what, June?
hokie316 - September 16, 2009
Since May 16...
… Lee has played 102 games. In those games he has hit .336/.421/.649 with 30 HR and 86 RBI.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
And before that
a large contingent around here wanted to replace him with Micah Hoffpauir.
Josh Timmers - September 16, 2009
Large contingent = about 5 people
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Maybe.
But that contingent SHOULD have been zero.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
depends on what you mean by "replace"
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Yeah...
When he was OPS-ing in the 500’s and Hoff was smashing the ball in the 900’s.
It was logical to want that.
kanderber - September 16, 2009
sigh
DGU - September 16, 2009
Hmm. I guess knee jerk = logical in some places.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
why have a bench then?
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
To fill in, pinch hit and be in the wings to back up a front line player lost for
an extended time. Just like Hoffpauir did when Ramirez went down. oh, wait…
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
wait - now I'm confused...
were you echoing DGU’s sigh or supporting kanderber’s logic?
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Sigh.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
FWIW, I got it
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Good point.
kanderber - September 16, 2009
Replace "large" with "loud" and you've got it.
You won’t see most of those folks around here now.
Giving up on a player too early is foolish. Giving up on a player of Lee’s quality too early is suicide.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Now that I can agree with it
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
What p/o'd me the most during the trade Lee
so Hoffpauir can get the playing time, was that the loud outcry occurred after DLee had turned it around. He was in week 2 or three of tearing the cover off the ball and Hoffpauir had started to wobble.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Lee's production isn't worth $13M next year.
The team needs to trade him so Micah can play.
sN Oakley - September 16, 2009
Definitely - it's been a great year for Derrek.
daver - September 16, 2009
Great
Season for DLee indeed, would never have seen this coming, given the way he started this season, and how he played in 2007 and 2008. Not only has he been the only steady offensive force for this team (at least after May) but he has saved this team a shit-load of runs with his glove!
My question would be what to do with him beyond next season? Would anyone want to extend him beyond 2010? If so, for how long, and for how much? As great as he has been this season, I would like to see him play this way once again next year before committing beyond 2010. If we have learned anything from the Dempster signing, we should not be to quick to overpay for career seasons.
Also, just out of curiosity, when does Prince Fielder become a Free Agent? Would the Cubs ever consider bringing him here to replace Lee, he could be the left-handed bat the Cubs have longed for?
tripdenten - September 16, 2009
Too many variables to decide on Lee right now.
Commitments to other contracts may require the Cubs let him go for financial reasons for 2011.
Is Vitters progressing/ready? Is Ramirez and option at 1st? Is there another option? Is Derrick healthy? Sill producing? Want to play?
As for Prince – do not want.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
I agree...
With moving Rami to first, if and when Vitters comes to the majors, I have been a proponent of that one for a long time.
I also agree with a wait and see approach with Lee, I do get the sense however that he will be gone after next season regardless, due mostly to constraints brought on by bad contracts, and his age.
As for Prince, I personally would be open to bringing him here. I think he would put up some monster numbers in Wrigley. However, I do worry about his conditioning, and wonder how much longer he can continue to play at first base every day. Do the Cubs really need another out of shape player (see: Zambrano, Soto)? If I were the Cubs I would at least consider bringing him here, he is an offensive force you can build a line-up around, and has been a consistent run producer his whole career. In the end, I still think Fielder is better suited to play in the AL, where he can DH occasionally, likely will end up in Boston.
tripdenten - September 16, 2009
The problem with moving Ramirez
to first to make room for Vitters is that Vitters may soon have to move to first base as well.
Josh Timmers - September 16, 2009
If Theriot is still our SS...
this my be necessary.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Just...
How bad was Vitters’ defense in terms of range and errors this season? I was not able follow the minor leaguers as much as I would have liked to this season. Keep in mind, Ramirez took a long time to grow into a competent defensive third baseman as well.
tripdenten - September 16, 2009
Dont' laugh, but we gained a game on the Cardinals too.
This season isn’t over yet.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Hahahahaha
Oh. Don’t Laugh? Sorry.
Archie - September 16, 2009
Did you have a good time last night? I hope you did.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Yes, thanks!
It was a blast.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Yeah, let's hear some on-the-scene reportage!
Shoes or sandals?
daver - September 16, 2009
It was sandals.
Tonight it’s going to be shoes. We are going with a group my husband works with and I don’t want him to be embarrassed of me. I will wear the same Cubs t-shirt even though I bought a new one that I can’t wait to wear. It also seems to be lucky-it’s going 2-0 for games I’ve attended with it. I did wash it.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
You washed it?
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
I think it will be OK.
I’ve washed it in between those other two games too.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
I also found two lucky pennies before the game yesterday.
I’m thinking one was for last night and the other was for tonight. Not that I’m superstitious or anything.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
I think you might have to stick with the sandals after last night's win.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I was going to walk from DeVry, but maybe you are right.
Whose going to look at my feet anyway?
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Exactly!
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Only those of us looking for cow-colored toenails.
daver - September 16, 2009
If you see me say hi.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
win one of the next two
and we don’t have to watch STL celebrate this weekend.
nji232 - September 16, 2009
We won't have to watch that. Book it.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
We still have to watch Saturday's game with Buck and McCarver
and Sunday’s with Morgan, Phillips and Miller. That’s pretty torturous in and of itself.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Just mute your TV.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Still a chance
but the Cubs would really have to sweep the Cards in STL to have any chance.
RIOTSHIRTS.com - September 16, 2009
Isn't Sullivan
The guy who suggested Z will waive his no trade and be shopped in the off season?
Anyone else catch Zambrano leave the post game after being questioned about that.
Seems like he has something against Z right now (I never read articles in Tribune so this might be a long running thing)
ak123 - September 16, 2009
It was Rogers, but him and Sullivan are joined at the butt
The Tribune has shifted their editorial line considerably since May. There are serious economic interests driving their reporting and writing method. Hence, I have cancelled my subscription and I try not to link to their stories online.
I caught Z being snippy. I would’ve been snippy too if those dicks asked me those questions. I usually don’t defend him, but I am today. I’m on his side.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Agreed.
I don’t think most reporters realize – or maybe they do and don’t care – how emotional the suggestion of a trade can be for a player. Especially a guy like Z who’s been with the Cubs his entire career. I actually like the way Carlos handled himself last night in the postgame.
daver - September 16, 2009
Zambrano gets a +1 for his post game behavior!
ak123 - September 16, 2009
Agreed. It was
ridiculous of the reporter to ask Z that. I don’t blame him at all.
sue369 - September 16, 2009
Hope is a good thing
maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies. —Shawshank
After this season DLee will have the two greatest single seasons by a 1B in Cub history. He has moved up to 5th in the NL in OPS and 4th in RBIs.
paulucla - September 16, 2009
Phil Cavarretta's 1945 season...
… 97 RBI in 498 AB, a .949 OPS, and winning the batting title at .355 — that’s got to be up there, too. (Yes, I know Cavarretta played some games in the OF in 1945.)
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I can't believe
you’re all dissing Cap Anson’s 1881 season. Dude hit .399 with a .442 OBP, and this was when you needed eight balls to draw a walk. Anson led the league in RBI, which was shocking even to him, since the stat hadn’t been invented yet. And every pitcher in the league was a submariner! :-)
Josh Timmers - September 16, 2009
The patience
on offense reminded me of the 08 team. Great to see Soto answer Z’s disasterous 5th with the bomb. Something has to give with Zambrano- to surrender a 4-0 lead against Gallardo isn’t acceptable. It would be nice to see Fox or Hoff get a start in one of the corners today. I would look for Blanco at short today also- Theriot dinged up his finger on his first, and ultimately, only error- i don’t see how McGhee’s grounder was ruled a hit. BB saw it as a hit too, but it just seemed a play a SS should make. Amazing that the Cubs score 13 with Dome and Bradley looking helpless at the plate. I’m pleased with the Cub’s effort- they haven’t given up, and look to be far more invested than Milwaukee did last night.
Finally- does any one else get tired of the way Fielder holds the ball at first, and continually holds it on top of baserunner’s heads after pick off attempts? I don’t like him… at all.
Slakkr - September 16, 2009
They weren't helpless!
Each got hit by a pitch! That takes skill.
mykalmorgan - September 16, 2009 via mobile
Yep, they are starting to remind me of last year.
I don’t know about anyone else, but now when they are down a run, I’m not getting that hopeless feeling like the game is over that I was getting most of this season. I’m now starting to expect them to come back and win. It’s a good feeling.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
I'm just glad this didn't end up like the Yankees-Blue Jays game last night.
That was an ugly situation.
Link.
Vermont Cubs Fan - September 16, 2009
You know I usually not one for a bean ball war...
…but last night could have used a retaliation pitch.
BTW, your link goes to a different video.
cubswynn - September 16, 2009
Here, try this
Link.
That should be it.
Vermont Cubs Fan - September 16, 2009
Nice.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Some random thoughts...
1. Why does “the Shark” considered on the “fast track” to the Big Leagues, when he continually blows most chances he gets to impress the team brass and Cub fans?
I don’t think he has the talent to succeed at this level, or the desire to “learn the game” by developing a couple more pitches.
2. Why isn’t Jake Fox playing 80% of the time right now in LF? the stupidity and stubborness on Lou’s part needs to end. He is perfect for the 5th hole and we need his bat.
3. I believe we are seeing what Fukudome really is. A decent fielding outfielder who is a .250 hitter with little power. You could run almost any decent AAA CF out there and get the same production for a lot less money. His swing technique (or lack of) is so infuriating to watch, that I almost always look away when he is at bat. BB was making fun of Ted Lilly’s batting style the other day on TV, and I have to say Fukudome’s batting style is almost as bad. The next two years are going to be really long!
4. Has Sean Marshall become the forgotten man in the bullpen now? Wouldn’t be surprised if they traded him in the off-season. I would rather keep him and use him more often.
CubFanSince1970 - September 16, 2009
Matt Murton, but can play Center.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Fukudome also walks.
A lot. Still an undervalued skill.
mykalmorgan - September 16, 2009 via mobile
Agree about everything but Fukudome.
You need to stop looking at batting average and get over the fact that he looks bad when he Ks. (A lot of guys do.) A league-average replacement wouldn’t give you a .373 OBP or a .345 wOBA. And he remains one of the better defensive right fielders in the game. Admittedly, his UZR numbers in CF look awful for his career thus far and not great for the 2009 season, but he’s still a valuable player.
daver - September 16, 2009
rec'd
Archie - September 16, 2009
However
Dome has a tendency to take not weeks off, but months. His approach at the plate this month is horrible. Sure his OBP is .373, but his run production is weak, combined with Milton’s poor year and the lost year of Soriano the Cubs OF this year has been bad.
Dome and Milton are esstenially the same player, no power, good gloves, and get on base. Don’t look for them to drive in any runs or hit homeruns, and unfortunately the Cubs need them to do that. Cubs all ready have Fontenot, Miles, Theriot, Blanco, Fuld, to get on base and not hit for power.
Grockcubs - September 16, 2009
I'm confused
Isn’t getting on base at a high-rate a big part of “run production”?
mykalmorgan - September 16, 2009
And he has had ONE horrendous month this year.
His per-month splits in every other completed month are actually kind of fantastic. There is still time for him to salvage September.
mykalmorgan - September 16, 2009
That's what I'm hoping for.
daver - September 16, 2009
Let’s take a look at the OBP for the guys you mentioned.
Fontenot .303
Miles .217
Theriot .341
Blanco .316
Fuld .379
Fuld tops Fukudome at the moment, and Theriot was up there until his recent slump, but the other guys…?
cwpettis - September 16, 2009
My point is
“run production” knocking in runs, RBI’s, Dome and Bradley do not have 100 combined. Dome and Bradley have become middle infielders.
But if you want a OBP of .370, 10 HR’s, score 70 runs and knock in 50 from your two outfield postions, well, good luck. IMO I want some better production than that from 2 of my outfielders.
Do you think Hendry or for that matter Cub fans expected the numbers from Bradley and Dome that they are putting up for the wonderful 10M+ a year they are getting. God help us if Hendry did or us fans did.
Grockcubs - September 16, 2009
Well, no one besides DLee and Aramis (in many fewer ABs)...
…have been very good at driving in runs this year. It’s the story of our season. And Kosuke and Milton are what they are at this point – top of the order guys. There are other positions that could be driving in those runs – catcher, left field, even second base – but there have been problems there, too. Anyway, my main point is simply to argue against the notion that Fukudome is worthless.
daver - September 16, 2009
Dome is not worthless at all
disappointing is my take. Him and Bradley are average baseball players.
Grockcubs - September 16, 2009
Dude
What planet do you live on.
Average?
You are kidding, right?
Hyperbole at least?
Archie - September 16, 2009
Neither have been that far from an MLB average starter.
Kosuke’s offense has been slightly above average this year. If he could keep from deep cold spells he might be really good, but he’s had them for a couple years straight, so it might be how he’ll play in MLB for his whole career. UZR says he’s a below-average CF and I think that’s probably right. He doesn’t have blazing speed and plays really deep, but has a good arm and doesn’t make too many mistakes. But, as CF is a tough defensive position, slightly above-average offense and somewhat below-average defense make a slightly above-average player. Then you consider that he has to sit against most lefties, and the reduction in playing time hurts his value. He’ll probably end the season right around average.
Bradley’s case for being an above-average starter based on this year’s production is worse than Kosuke’s. His offense has been fairly similar. He’s probably not as valuable on defense; UZR gives him around average marks this year but at an easier position. His history suggests he might be better than this year’s number, but he also could be slowed by injuries and age. He misses more time for injury and rest than most players. So he’s probably a somewhat below-average starter this year, who can be better in the future if he (a) proves he’s still a plus defender in right and (b) has a good year with the bat.
aldimond - September 16, 2009
Fukudome vs. LHPs
I really would like to have seen Lou give Fukudome a chance to work out of this year’s funk vs. LHPs. For whatever reason, it wasn’t a problem last year, when he hit .251 vs. RHPs and .276 vs. LHPs (with a slightly better BB to K ratio).
cwpettis - September 16, 2009
Dude,
I am not kidding, goodness look at the numbers that have been posted below, average is being kind.
As mentioned by so many
LIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grockcubs - September 16, 2009
point taken
Yeah, I think the problem is that Bradley was brought in with the expectation that he’d be a big bat. I used to think that this was an unreasonable expectation, but now that I look at his stats again, maybe it wasn’t.
Sure, his 77 RBI wasn’t phenomenal but given his 509 PA it’s not bad. For comparison, in 2008 Soriano had 75 RBI in 503 PA while Soto (usually hitting in the bottom of the lineup) had 86 RBI in 563 PA. Moreover, Bradley slugged .563 in 2008 and .545 in 2007. Soriano and A-Ram led the Cubs in slugging last year with .532 and .518, respectively. This year Bradley is an anemic .398!!!
Of course, 2008’s stats don’t mean anything this year—clearly Bradley has performed under expectations. This wouldn’t have been such a problem if nearly every other player on the team—Soriano, Soto and, yes, guys like Miles and Fontenot—were doing the same thing.
I think Fukudome can still salvage his Sept./Oct and end up with an .820 OPS and maybe 65 RBI. But your point stands—if your team is going to have two high-OBP low-RBI guys in the outfield, you’re gonna need a slugger in left field and a Hanley Ramirez, Chase Utley, or Troy Tulowitzki in the middle infield.
cwpettis - September 16, 2009
You gotta take in to account a player's home park.
Bradley spent last year in Texas, and no doubt benefited from that statistically.
If nobody in the front office was able to figure that out and instead based their expectations on what he was doing in a very offense friendly park, shame on them.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
That's a good point
And I totally agree. But it is interesting to note that Bradley managed a .947 OPS (153 OPS+) in a (admittedly short) season split between Oakland and San Diego, two of the most difficult-to-hit parks in the MLB. I think he has the potential to be excellent, but his annual performances have fluctuated quite a bit year to year.
cwpettis - September 16, 2009
Some of that may be a question of comfort as well.
Its clear Bradley was uncomfortable in Chicago at first. He seems to be a sensitive dude, acutely aware of his environment. He also seemingly got more comfortable with the Cubs and starting playing as such as the season progressed.
Maybe an offseason in one place, around one set of guys he seems to enjoy now, could bring him around to his prior performances.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Or to take into account the pressure cooker that is Chicago sports
heine41 - September 16, 2009
I kinda liked Soto in the 5th hole last night. Although I would like to see Fox in there somewhere.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Agree about Marshall. He's not in the doghouse too, is he?
katie casey - September 16, 2009
The Sean Marshall thing...
…is becoming a mystery of Hardy Boys-esque proportions (unless I missed a news story). He hasn’t pitched since September 6th. Seven days and counting! What gives? Is it only because of the expanded rosters?
daver - September 16, 2009
I think it's two things.
First, like you said, expanded rosters. Marshall is a known quantity, and Lou wants to give guys like Caridad and Shark a look. Second, now that Grabow is around Marshall is no longer the shut-down lefty out of the pen.
aldimond - September 16, 2009
Why did he wait until know to give guys a look? Fox was an unknown quantity when Armais was hurt.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
I don't nose.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Interesting that Soriano gets shut down
And Cubs are 8 of last 10.
You can’t go back and change time and we probably should have at least 5 more wins if it weren’t for bullpen meltdowns but it feels like a different team playing ever since they left CitiField.
ak123 - September 16, 2009
In Fairness
the Cubs were beating the Pirates, Reds and Brewers with Soriano in the lineup too.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
On Theriot
No. He certainly should have handled it cleanly, but he had nowhere to throw to get anyone in time. The Cubs’ radio announcers and Brewers’ television announcers all said the same thing.
Theriot isn’t a major league shortstop, but that play wasn’t an error.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Agree and disagree.
I agree that the Theriot could NOT have gotten an out on that play – even if he had fielded the ball cleanly. He was deep in the hole and his momentum was carrying him toward the third base line.
IIRC, there were runners on second and third: He couldn’t have gathered himself quickly enough to get the guy going to third, and there’s no way his throw makes it to second base in time (much less first). Al, I urge you to go back and watch it again. The original error call was not warranted.
Disagree that Ryan Theriot isn’t a major league shortstop – and I will continue to rally against what I feel is an unjust oversimplification of the situation. His career and seasonal UZR numbers show him as above league average at the position, and he’s about to finish his third full season at the position (3,318.2 total innings).
Am I open to an upgrade? Absolutely. Would Theriot do just as well, if not better, at second base? Probably. But the Cubs have won two division championships and now sit seven games above .500 with Ryan Theriot as their starting shortstop. Let’s give the guy some credit – he has earned the right to be called a major league shortstop.
daver - September 16, 2009
Runners were on 1st and 2nd
But Ramirez wasn’t on the bag.
Shawon Dunston might have had a play, but it would have taken that kind of arm. Most shortstops don’t have it.
I don’t honestly know enough about defensive statistics. But while I do think they are valuable, I also don’t think they detail everything (positioning, instincts, etc.). Theriot, like his LSU buddy, doesn’t know how to make tag plays, he has poor footwork and a really bad arm.
Maybe I’m unfairly harsh on him (although I am defending him on last night’s play – it wasn’t his fault), but I just don’t think he’s that good. He’s adequate on a team like the 2008 Cubs.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
That's a fair enough assessment of Theriot.
I just think it’s way overstating the case against him to say he’s not a major league shortstop. He is – better than some, worse than others.
daver - September 16, 2009
I suppose you're right
He is, in fact, playing short for an MLB team.
I guess I should say that I don’t think he’s a very good major league shortstop.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I'm rec'ing both dcd's post above and SB's post here.
It’s true that Theriot’s stats say he can do the job. It’s also true that when I watch him, and other fans watch him, he just looks bad at the job. I’d love to be able to read the pro scouting reports on him. Either way, I think his trade value is at its peak (well, it was earlier in the season at least) and he should be shopped in the off-season. The problem is that we’d need to shop for a SS in trade, too. That’s tough to do.
DGU - September 16, 2009
The eye test says he jsut doesn't have very good range
It was very noticeable (by comparison) when the Cubs played Atlanta and we got a good look at Escobar
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
rec'd the reply
theriot has terrible footwork. look at how many grounders he has recently been unable to make the play to first (forget the play last night where he went to his left—I agree that was not an error). however, on grounders of modest speed theriot has no instinct to come in on a ball, he only seems comfortable going parallel to 2B/3B. just no ability to adapt. and with his average arm (I am being kind), he can’t compensate for the bad footwork.
I do think we can do better defensively and should in 2010.
LAcarl519 - September 16, 2009
Care to name a name?
daver - September 16, 2009
Andres Blanco
He did say “defensively”
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I'd play Blanco/Scales/Baker
and send Miles packing and trade Theriot. If we can upgrade/trade LBR on the right side, I would do that too. I would take defense at 2B/SS as a priority over offense. My guess is we will get a lot more offense out of the OF next year.
No way it can be as bad as it was this year.
LAcarl519 - September 16, 2009
Defensive statistics are about results.
The ball is hit into a certain zone, and the player is credited if he makes an out and debited if he does not; exactly how much depends on which zone and how hard the ball was hit, based on average results for balls hit into that zone. Zones are relative to the field, not the player. So whether a player made the play because of range, jump, positioning, arm, etc, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that he got the out. If a player has good positioning or instincts it should show up in the results. There are supposed to be park adjustments, to make up for, say, Wrigley’s long-cut grass, but I’m not sure exactly how that works.
The difficulty of UZR is that not all balls hit in a particular zone are equally tough to field. Similarly, a hitter could face really great pitching for a while and you’d expect his numbers to be poor. This tends to even out over a large number of chances, and people tend to think a couple seasons worth of shortstop data is pretty reliable (for positions that get fewer chances it’s less reliable, just like a season of hitting results for a bench player means is less meaningful than those for a starter). It’s also possible that there are other biases
- a human judges which zone a hit belongs in and how hard it’s hit. It’s been documented that some parks tend to have more balls scored as line drives than others. And some players have seen their defensive numbers change dramatically when they move to new ballparks, or consistently are graded differently by fairly similar systems that use different data sources (UZR vs. Dewan’s +/). So it’s completely possible that some players that play in the same place for a while have completely biased defensive stats.But as for your statement that they “don’t detail everything”… well, they definitely take into account the things you mentioned. They do miss a lot of things that affect how many bases are taken on hits (some of these are captured for outfielders), they don’t consider foul balls, and they don’t look at anything but ground balls for infielders and fly balls for outfielders. I don’t think we can completely determine defensive worth by them, certainly, but they’re a nice tool to have around.
aldimond - September 16, 2009
The Brewers radio guys
thought it was an error.
I listened to the Reds broadcast over the weekend and they made the statement that the official scoring at Wrigley is generally thought to be the worst in baseball and has been for years.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
I have always felt...
… that the official scorer should be a MLB employee, a fifth member of the umpiring crew. Why that job has gone to retired sportswriters is beyond me.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
It's not that hard to figure out Al...
baseball and baseball writers have been in an incestuous relationship for a long, long time.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
And with few positive results.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
drewishdrewid - September 16, 2009
Coming soon to a ballpark near you...
Tonight’s official scorer is Jay Mariotti
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Of course they did.
Len and Bob thought it should not have been called an error and said as much when it was corrected.
daver - September 16, 2009
Why of course?
Wouldn’t they be happy to see McGehee credited with a hit?
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Perhaps, but they'd be just as happy to see a Cubs player credited with an error.
daver - September 16, 2009
Well
that is just plain ridiculous.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
i don't think it is a Soriano issue
I mean the top two guys in the lineup (Theriot and Fukudome) are in horrendous slumps, I think Dome is hitting maybe .100 over his last 50 at bats, and the offense is still figuring out ways to get it done mostly on the backs of Lee and Ramirez. I’d like to see Pinella shove Dome down to 8th in the order or on the bench, he’s pretty useless and Fuld would add more value.
The fact is we continue to get good starting pitching (5th inning last night notwithstanding) and a couple guys in the lineup are hot and we are playing bad teams. Not rocket science.
BeltwayCubsFan - September 16, 2009
Sigh...again...
…a guy who sees a lot of pitches, draws walks and has stayed healthy all year and played decent defense in the outfield is not useless. And Fuld can’t add more value now – he’s injured.
daver - September 16, 2009
did he hurt his wrist on that catch?
Looked like he was favoring it on the way back to the dugout on the highlight.
Archie - September 16, 2009
He did, apparently.
He’ll be out a few days.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
For the last month or so, he's done none of those things, right?
.137/.286./176 in Sept. – .207 / .314 / .287 over the last month. Obviously, Fukudome is going nowhere, but maybe a couple of days off could re-charge him again?
While Fuku’s second half has been way better than his 2008 second half, he’s definitely in a free-fall at the moment, and 2 more weeks of this is going to leave him with a 2009 line that will be almost identical to his 2008 line.
D98 - September 16, 2009
Let's see how the month (and season) plays out.
After all of our talk of putting Dome and Milton at the top of the order, both have been struggling to get on base lately – though Kosuke’s been doing a little better than Bradley, I believe. If nothing else, Dome’s been a little more consistent this year. I just don’t think it’s fair to call him “useless.”
daver - September 16, 2009
He may not be useless
but he isn’t worth his pricetag, and he’s middlin when it comes to production
Illicat - September 16, 2009
Besides ADAM LIND!!!!!!!!!!!
Who else would be your choice to replace him?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Why can't I have ADAM LIND!!!!! ?
Get it done Jim!
I honestly don’t know, I have no idea who is available, since I’m not a major league GM. I just know that Dome is clearly a below average offensive player.
Illicat - September 16, 2009
Price, price, price.
I’m so confused by why so many here lament this stuff. How does it affect you what Dome gets paid? Its not like they’d ditch his salary and give it back to fans.
As a major market team, the cubs will always and forever pay more for players than other smaller market teams will invest for similar production. This is a fact of the franchise you root for. It isn’t coincidence 4 of the top six 2009 team payrolls come from the cities of New York, LA and Chicago.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
6 of the top 12 2009 team payrolls come from the cities of New York, LA and Chicago as well.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
The Cubs are CLEARLY working under a payroll cap
It’s the reason we had to dump Derosa to bring in Milton. No, it doesn’t affect my wallet, but it does affect the team that is put on the field. His production does not equal his monetary price tag, and that hurts the club.
Illicat - September 16, 2009
Just for the record
DeRo wasn’t dumped because of Bradley. The moves were independent of one another.
Here a link from Kenney
The line was Fonty needed to get more at bats. But I believe DeRo was moved as part as a 12 step process trying to get PV.
KaliCub - September 16, 2009
If that's the case they should have made 100% sure they could do that before taking step one.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I agree and the moves kind of bit Hendry in the ass.(re DeRo)
I think the whole PV thing distracted Hendry and let him down the wrong path this off season since we didn’t acquire him anyway.
When Towers was trying to get the Phils involved with the three way that included DeRo, Hendry thought he could get more value by dealing the parts himself and then taking those parts back to Towers for a trade. And it all backfired when he still couldn’t get a deal done with PV.
KaliCub - September 16, 2009
Agreed - DeRosa and Pie seem to be moved in order to get Peavy.
It’s inexplicable that Hendry would prefer to do the deal in stages, as opposed to a 3 or 4 team deal, however.
Especially considering that the Cubs gave up two productive players and got back a bunch things they didn’t really need – minor league relievers and Aaron Heilman.
D98 - September 16, 2009
Also
Money needed to be freed up to cover Dempster’s new contract, which was not totally deserved based on one good season as a starter.
tripdenten - September 16, 2009
We were going to save dollars
on both letting Woody and Marquis go. That money could’ve been enough to to keep DeRo and still sign Bradley.
I don’t think DeRo was a salary dump.
KaliCub - September 16, 2009
I mean, i'm sure every team has some sort of cap, even the Yankees.
But that is missing my point entirely. A player in the FA market know that if the cubs are pursuing him, or players at his position, he’s likely to get paid a premium.
If a guy is work a dollar on the open market, its common sense that the Cubs (or Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Mets…) will have to pay a buck twenty to sign him.
They “Player X isn’t worth his pricetag” argument is failed when it comes to the team you cheer for when its a difference as small as what you see for guys doing similar production at similar positions across the league. There are exceptions, obvs (Soriano has NOT been worth his pricetag this season, no doubt), but you aren’t cheering for the Royals here. Value in players coming out of free agency isn’t every going to be something the Cubs have a lot of luck in getting.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Few players are.
Every contract is a gamble. Players get paid what the market will bear at the time they’re signed. Yadda yadda.
daver - September 16, 2009
You forgot "small sample size," Dave.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
the only point of agreement i'll make with you
is that the alternatives to replace him are not blinking in large lights.
BeltwayCubsFan - September 16, 2009
Top-flight young OF don't come available very often.
And when they do, they’re expensive.
D98 - September 16, 2009
Unless you have the scouting and development in place within the organization
to find real prospects and groom them into MLB ready talent. Hey-O
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Yeah, but that's impossible. No one can do that. Right?
D98 - September 16, 2009
At least in Illinois, north of Madison.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
On Zambrano
I didn’t see him react to Scales not throwing home, but his body language wasn’t good during most of the rally. I thought at the time that he was more upset with himself than his teammates, but he was trying to throw 110 MPH – Santo made a comment about how he suddenly went to all fastballs, and Bill Schroeder made a similar observation.
Innings like that are tough to watch – two outs, no one on, the pitcher up and five runs score. I still think Zambrano was upset with himself – but he’s got to learn to harness that instead of letting it control him.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Zambrano is a very emotional dude. The discussion on trading him
probably had him at the boiling point before he took the mound.
I assume he thinks it’s okay for him to insinuate he’d like to be traded, but a different animal if the press or front office is discussing it.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Yet he was very good for 4 innings - that doesn't add up.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
It makes as much sense as anything with Z.
He may have stayed up blogging all night in anger, someone may have said something in the dugout, who knows?
Z just doesn’t seem to have much margin for error with his emotions. A little fire brings out his best stuff, but the ump missing a call (while pitching or him batting) or a poor fielding play behind him can knock the wheels right off.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
And that's why I tend to be in the "make a good deal for him" camp
I wouldn’t trade him just to trade him, but I woudn’t be devastated if he was moved.
If he ever learned to focus the emotion, he’d be one of the best pitchers in the league.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I'd need to see something strong and not a meager return to be pleased.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Agreed
I still like my Reyes and Maine thought, but that’s not without risks.
Thing is, no one is going to trade a sure thing for Zambrano right now.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Reyes and Maine are far from being "sure thing[s]" after their injuries.
I don’t think I like this trade idea a whole lot.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Again, no one is going to give the Cubs a sure thing
Not with the questions regarding Zambrano’s health and focus.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Zambrano's health is outstanding compared to Reyes and Maine, no?
.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Physical health, yes.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Hey-O!
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Wasn't Reyes a bit of a headcase too?
Or am I libeling the poor man?
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
That's his rep too.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
There are rumors
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I am so tired of his act
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
I have been getting there for a while
And he’s starting to lose a lot of public opinion.
If he thinks he has it bad now, he should see how people would respond to some of his antics in NYC or Philadelphia.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I don't think he knew of the trade rumor until after the game
Just from his reaction and post game comments…but I could be wrong.
ak123 - September 16, 2009
Oh, I think he knew beforehand
It was in the paper yesterday and online Monday night.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Then he probably did
I thought it came out a few hours prior to the game.
Mostly because there wasn’t a link or 5 on here talking about it.
ak123 - September 16, 2009
Yeah, I was surprised at that, too.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Mental toughness anyone?
If what little Paulie Sullivan said about seeing what Z can bring in return in a trade makes you (Zambrano) so upset that it affects your performance on the field??? I’m sorry, that’s weaksauce. It’s not like Z is receiving death threats (i.e. Hank Aaron) it’s some words printed in a newspaper discussing what your value would be out in the trade market. That’s sports writing, DEAL with it.
I’m curious as to what he can bring in as well…but, I’m hesistant because I’ve seen what recent trades have brought us…Aaronmileits. But why the hell not see what other teams may want to throw our way in exchange for Z? If nothing seems that great, then forget it. We’ll continue to deal with Dr. Cramp/Mr. Strikeout and go from there.
HawkVision - September 16, 2009
I think it's pretty safe to blame dat cubfan daver for all of Z's problems last night
As Al wrote, Z was dominant for the first four innings.
However, after the 4th, Z ducked into the clubhouse, read daver’s MLBTR Cubs leadoff discussion includes INTRIGUING TRADE PROPOSAL fanshot and worked himself up into a frenzy.
Canada catches a break, because for today, I blame daver.
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
I always blame Canada
“It’s not even a real country anyway.”
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Well...well...then I blame the Yankees fan who brought it up in the first place!
Seriously, Z, it wasn’t me…there was a fire, an earthquake, my suit didn’t come back from the cleaners…BLou made me do it…an old friend came in from out of town…IT WASN’T MY FAULT!!!
:::SLAP!:::
daver - September 16, 2009
It's 106 miles to Chicago,
we’ve got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it’s dark, and we’re wearing sunglasses
Hit it.
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
beautifyl
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Don't forget...
Miles had a 4-3 groundout. That guy may be worse than Enrique Wilson.
cubfanwill - September 16, 2009
"May" be?
I don’t think there’s any question.
mykalmorgan - September 16, 2009 via mobile
Hey, now...
That weak grounder “sparked” the 5-run rally in the 6th.
hokie316 - September 16, 2009
DING DING DING!
I’ve been looking for the one Aaron Miles fan. You, sir, are a saint. Mr. Miles will be getting in touch with you soon. He needs a friend really bad.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
I think Miles is over used
he needs a rest… and what was up with shaving? He looked 13 years old?
mrcubsfan - September 16, 2009
I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a fan, but...
I’m past the pulling-my-hair-out, purple-faced, neck-veins-bulging, “Aaron F-in Miles
” stage and ready to fully embrace the Aaron Miles Experience for what it is… a truly wretched ballplayer doing exactly what truly wretched ballplayers do.
If I couldn’t laugh at Ol’ No. 7 being trotted out as a PH… again… and predictably dribbling one to second… again… I’d have to cry.
hokie316 - September 16, 2009
You are a good man. A patient man. A wise man.
Getting angry at Miles is fun, but letting it be is wise.
Rec’d.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Thanks to all the 4-3 groundout talk on here about Miles,
I turned to the party I was with and said 4-3 before he did it. They were very impressed. It was pretty funny.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
With that power, say "gapper to RF, triple" next time.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
LOL
Wouldn’t that be something!
katie casey - September 16, 2009
On Samardzija :)
How would the game had been closer had he not given up runs?
In all seriousness, he still hasn’t shown anything to justify either the money or the fast track that he has been given.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
No, but they called him up and that's the kind of game to put him in.
I think we’re all weary of the Shark experiment and either want it to succeed or be shut down.
I hope they’re giving him this one last taste and a harsh pep talk before the offseason.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Oh, I have no problem with him being used last night
I just think he’s highly overrated.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
Agreed. So far he hasn't shown
anything of great interest in AAA. The argument for Hoffpauir and Fox is they’ve proved themselves in the minors. The argument for Shark is he has a guaranteed contract and I’m not buying it.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
And a ridiculous contract it was
Even at the time.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
You're right.
I meant to write “it got closer when”. I’ll fix it.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Sun-Times reported the Z trade rumors too
It’s not just Sullivan.
I also don’t think writers pull their stories out of nothing. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sullivan had a source or two in the locker room that told him, off-the-record, that they didn’t appreciate Zambrano showing up Scales.
Sullivan didn’t want to burn the players who told him, so he made it off as his observations.
I’m putting it at 50-50 that Zambrano is a Cub next year.
Worf - September 16, 2009
Well of course it's 50-50. He either will be or he won't.
That’s ALWAYS 50-50 ;)
Zeke - September 16, 2009
wow..
I am putting it at 50-50 that there will be NO next year
cubsnlinux - September 16, 2009
or a tomorrow for that matter...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
or aliens for that matter
cubsnlinux - September 16, 2009
can we finally get over
the idea that Koyie HIll should be taking ABs from Soto….
DartmouthCubsFan - September 16, 2009
not really..that feeling is relative to Soto's performance/struggles
cubsnlinux - September 16, 2009
agreed
sue369 - September 16, 2009
I think that at that time it was the right thing to do to have Hill in there.
Now that Soto is starting to be more his old self, I’m happy to see him back.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
I am glad that Lou is playing Soto now that he is hot.
KaliCub - September 16, 2009
Not yet
Hill has done a really nice job filling in with Soto slumping this year.
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
Right.
The Cubs have perhaps the best backup C in the league. That’s a valuable asset.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Hill is signed to a 1 year, with only 2.06 years
of service time, is he under control for next year?
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Yes.
He’ll be retained.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
what?
unless you’re referencing Soto as the backup, i have no idea why Koyie Hill is being so glamorized… he has an OPS+ of 70
He ranks 59th in MLB C’s in RC/27
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/c/sort/runsCreatedPer27Outs/count/41/qualified/false/type/sabermetric
what the heck is everyone happy about with Koyie Hill?
backup C’s ahead of him include: Mike Rivera, Omir Santos, David Ross, Chris Snyder, Ronnie Paulino, Gregg Zaun, Landon Powell, Ryan Hanigan, Kelly Shoppach, John Buck, Brad Ausmus, Yorvit Torrealba/Chris Iannetta…
what am i missing?
DartmouthCubsFan - September 16, 2009
His defensive value to the team.
He is 1st in MLB in throwing out runners. Pitchers like throwing to him, from all accounts. And the Cubs have a 39-23 record when he starts.
You can tell me those things don’t matter, but they do.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
rec
KaliCub - September 16, 2009
Green'd.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
okay... lets look at those numbers
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/2009-fielding.shtml#players_standard_fielding
Soto CS% = 29%
Hill CS% = 41% (for the record, catchers ahead of Hill in CS% = Gerald Laird (44%), Yadier Molina (42%), Ryan Hanigan (44%), Kenji Johjima (53%), David Ross (45%), etc
Range Factor
Soto = 8.46
Hill = 8.92
Range Factor/Game
Soto = 7.89
Hill = 7.99
Hill’s defense is maybe 3-5% better than Soto’s…
DartmouthCubsFan - September 16, 2009
Maybe he calls a better game?
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
are you implying
Soto—the cathcer of a 97-win team can’t call a better game than Hill?
socalbob - September 16, 2009
Logic fail
Theriot was the shortstop of a 97-win team. Does that make him better than Ernie Banks in 1958?
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
this is my point
what do you mean “logic fail”?
Clearly Soto is a better player. N Oakley specifically suggested he calls a better game. I asked if Soto, clearly a better player, could call games better than Hill?
You are twisting this into apples and oranges.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
Perhaps I am confused
You seemed to use a team record to support an argument that an individual from that team was superior.
What did I miss?
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
game calling
This was about game calling—Al used the Cubs record with Hill in the posts above.
It was not an issue on a 97 win team, right?
How do you call a better game if it does not lead to more wins? Soto was excellent in ‘08 and is returning to form now. I don’t get all the love for Hill. He is a nice back-up.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
Ah, I see
Fail on me for not reading the whole mini-thread.
Carry on.
Shanghai Badger - September 16, 2009
I guess I don't follow the conclusion.
The 2008 team won 97 games, therefore Soto calls a better game than Hill?
The same team won a higher percentage of games with Hill the catcher, therefore, with Hill’s lesser bat in the lineup and the same slumping Bradley, Lee, Soriano etc. I’m not concluding Hill calls a better game, but that it’s a possibility.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
no, you are just trying to turn around my
question.
I think game calling is over-rated and neither of these two is better. The Cubs won in ’08 over a full season and have had some good success over 1/3 a season with 2 different players.
I don’t see the value of using this metric to support Hill or Soto.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
I wasn't trying to turn it around, it wasn't clear to me it was a question
as much as usin the win loss of 2008 as a deciding fact.
I didn’t think I was being defensive so much as trying to clarify my intent as you were telling others I said things I didn’t.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
ok
I thought it was clear as I started the post with “are” and ended it with a “?”
My bad for not asking it differently so we would be on the same page.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
Well, I did not spefically suggest Hill calls a better game, but was trying to point out
an area not discussed. Soto has proven to have the better bat and DCF’s stats indicate Hill is only marginally better defensively.
If pitchers enjoy throwing to him and he has a 63% winning percentage for games started, what factor wasn’t discussed? Calling the game is the one I thought of.
As for logic fail is the string that because Soto, the better bat and almost defensive equal, is better, he must call a better game?
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
small sample size
you cannot say 63% winning percentage = better game calling because all other factors are the same
You realize this 63% = 102 wins over a full season?
I think game calling is irrelevant as the pitcher shakes off his catchers frequently anyway. They both have proven to be successful (wins and losses).
socalbob - September 16, 2009
Please re-read my comments.
I did not say Hill calls a better game than Soto.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
I know you didn't
I asked you a question to which you got defensive. You did not answer my question.
Were you implying this or were you speculating? Just trying to get your position. I understand now you were speculating.
There are some who actually believe that thought about game calling.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
rec'd
over the top.
I’m a big believer in “up the middle defense”
LAcarl519 - September 16, 2009
the Bad News Bears
won games with Loopis in RF and that doesn’t mean they would not have been better with another Kelly Leak.
Hill is a back-up and that’s it.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
but they did lose to the Mexican team that had a rock in the middle of the infield
Maybe we could get one for Wrigley to help out Theriot?
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
Isn't Shoppach the starter now?
And he’s had a pretty lousy offensive year, at least until very recently.
Did CLE already find another guy to start ahead of Shoppach? Poor guy, if that’s true…
D98 - September 16, 2009
He sure did.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
+1
Kudos to The Claw!
vonde6 - September 16, 2009
The Claw is our master.
I also think of “the claw” as a wrestling move made famous by Baron von Raschke and a gardening implement from Garden Weasel
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Not CRAW! ... CRAW!!!!!
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Good Yogi quote
This was from a local writer covering the SF Giants:
“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.”
I thought that was a good one to wrap your brain around with the morning cereal.
Here is the writer and his article: Mark Purdy – SJ Mercury News
I don’t actually like Mr. Purdy, since he has written two articles over the years about how the White Sox are a genuine working-man’s team and the Cubs and their fans are phony-baloney. I wrote him a nice e-mail response both times. Ahhh, those flawed college memories.
vonde6 - September 16, 2009
Isn't it fun to correct "journalists?"
I find it very amusing.
chilango2 - September 16, 2009
Sports Page Journalism
I took a journalism class in high school, and worked on my high school and college newspapers. So I am a long way from being a journalist. However, I did learn enough to know that sports page journalism (and feature page journalism) has always had a lot more latitude when it comes to reporting a story and being objective. I am sure that I pointed out to Mr. Purdy that I realized that he couldn’t be considered a real journalist.
vonde6 - September 16, 2009
Allow me.
daver - September 16, 2009
The nerve of the man!
I mean, for a guy covering the Giants to call any fans phony-baloney is laughable. A team with fans that used to walk out of the stadium after Bonds’ last at-bat, including in one game I was at where Jason Schmidt was up 2-1 through 8 and going for the complete game. As Schmidt pitched into and out of a jam in the 9th half the remaining fans had their backs turned to the field. The Marlins got runners to 2nd and 3rd with no outs, Schmidt struck out the last 3 batters to win the game, and less than half the paying crowd saw him do it. Pathetic.
aldimond - September 16, 2009
We're Gonna Pull This Thing Out
i just wanna go on record with that. We’re going to Win Out, take the WC or perhaps even the Division, and go all the way.
We are.
cubsgocubs - September 16, 2009
"Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose"
shifafaontheside - September 16, 2009
awesome
that’s the attitude we should all have. :D
drewishdrewid - September 16, 2009
TWHS
daver - September 16, 2009
I guess I'm not the only crazy one still looking at the Cardinals after all
katie casey - September 16, 2009
Here's a nice article
on the greatest pennant race comebacks in the history of baseball.
http://tinyurl.com/ovfysc
Interesting that almost all of them involve teams facing 10-12 game deficits in August. My take is that the greatest comeback / collapse was the Cardinals / Phillies in 1964, because it involved a 6 1/2 game lead with only 12 to play. When you look at all the things that had to go right for the Cardinals and wrong for the Phillies for that to happen, it makes your head spin.
If the Cardinals were to blow an 8 1/2 game lead with 16 to play, it might overtake 1964 in the annals of baseball.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Wouldn't that be sweet.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Cool article. Thanks.
katie casey - September 16, 2009
The point is...
… that comebacks similar to what the Cubs would have to do HAVE happened before.
Here’s another one. In 1987 the Blue Jays led the Tigers by 3.5 games with 7 games remaining. They were three outs away from beating the Tigers and going up 4.5 games with 6 left. Then Kirk Gibson hit a home run and the Tigers won that game in 13 innings.
Still, 2.5 games up with six left. Should have been a no-brainer, right?
Wrong. The Blue Jays didn’t win another game. The Tigers beat them 1-0 on the last day of the season to clinch.
It CAN happen. It’s happened to many other teams. I say again, WHY NOT US?
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Aaron Miles
Mapmaker - September 16, 2009
Hmmm.
Well, the Cubs won a game last night in which he played by six runs.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Miles made an appearance (as in occupying space).
he didn’t “play”
LAcarl519 - September 16, 2009
Does he ever?
hokie316 - September 16, 2009
How about...
The 2007 Colorado Rockies who won 15 (or whatever ridic #) straight to end the season to tie for the Wild Card, were overlooked, won the one game playoff, and then went on to the World Series! If the Cubs were to make the playoffs this season, they would have to do something similar to this.
tripdenten - September 16, 2009
Right
and what the Rockies accomplished in 2007 was the first time that had been done in 100+ years of major league baseball. And you are pinning your hopes on it happening for the second time in 2 years? Good luck with that.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Why deny the dude his hope?
You are so adamant that it can’t happen. We get it. Its a long shot. But it COULD happen.
What about somebody clinging to that hope gets your undies in such a bunch?
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
What is it about logic
that gets your panties in such a bunch? I am merely responding to people’s posts. It’s not like I started a thread with the heading “Cubs are done!”. You guys are trying so hard to twist things to make it look like there is realistic hope, why is it considered bad manners when facts and figures are used to refute the goofy stuff that is being said?
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Whatever dude.
You are clearly and obviously invested in telling everybody why it can’t happen, why it won’t happen.
We get it. It’s a long shot. As i’m sure you are fully aware, cubs fans aren’t an overly optimistic bunch. But pissing in everybody’s cereal every time they say “hey, there is a chance this is possible” is pretty annoying, and you are doing exactly that.
You seem to want to attack every time somebody goes optimistic, and then scream “facts, logic, blah blah blah” when they say “yeah but i hold out hope due to reason x, or example z”.
Fair enough. You don’t believe. Keep it to yourself, or at the very least stop berating everyone who does. Its unbecoming.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
+1
Some people post to go on record as being optimistic, maybe to rally the troups, to make people feel better — and some people post to go on record as being right. I must say that AzzJazz is very consistent in his posts.
vonde6 - September 16, 2009
I'm not sure I get the gist of this
but are you implying that some people should post with the intent of being wrong?
If so, there are plenty of folks on here that are doing a good job.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
No...
… he’s saying some people post hope, and others stick to realistic assessment. This is obvious, obviously.
He also seems to be implying that there are those that keep away from hope and stick to whats likely so they can jump up and down and point out how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. And the implication is that you are that guy.
The question is, why? Offended baseball sensibility? Really? How lame.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Okay
so what you are saying is that it’s not my desire to stay in the real world that bugs you so much, it’s the possibility that I might be right. Well, sorry about that.
Or maybe you are saying that by pointing out the reasons why the Cubs chances are slim and none and slim is making travel plans, I am stating the obvious. Well, on that I would have to agree. After all, Al updates the BR % playoff chances with daily updates. The last time I checked it was like 2%, so I guess this is a legitimate point.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Yep anybody who has a different thought than azjazzman is wrong, I now know that.
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
I think
you have that backwards. anybody who has a different thought from the Blue Believers is wrong. This is historical, going back as far as gaius marius, who I believe correctly identified the debacle of the post 2003 Dusty Baker led Cubs, and was villified here. There just doesn’t seem to be any tolerance here for ideas and thoughts that don’t toe the line.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
see above post as an example of my point
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
If your point is that
anybody who assumes the role of the “loyal opposition” to the Cubs Can Do No Wrong contingent is automatically wrong, they yes, you are absolutely correct.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
No, I think my point is you just like to disagree.
You spent a lot of time the other day defending Blou, and acted as if you knew nothing of his past issues. Then, you referred to him as Blue Mike, so you clearly knew that was one of his previous banned monikers. Hmm, fishy.
You claim the victim of having to be the one to stand up to this vast can do no wrong conspiracy. Yet, to a man, every poster has said, isn’t likely, would like to see it happen (WC), but most likely won’t. And, very frustrated with the under performance of the team as a whole. So, not sure how that is a can do no wrong. Maybe holding out hope while there is some is being supportive of your – you know like a good fan would do. There has been no shortage of pointing out the problems by these same people. I just don’t see the argument you continually need to make.
I know you will respond and tell me how I am 100% wrong and feel good that you have “refuted” my argument. You won’t really read this ar give it any consideration.
Just starting to feel a little trollish to me.
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
Well when you make assumptions
you make an ass out of u and me. I used to participate on BCB years ago when BLou was Blue Mike. Then, in subsequent years, I did not participate much (did not even read it much) until fairly recently. So, in fact, I am NOT aware of everything that BLou has said or done. Nor do I much care.
But, I will say this: I have seen plenty of examples of the lynch mob mentality on here, not just with BLou bit also others, when the only offense was to be critical of the Cubs or to point out something that might be construed as negative. It really is amazing. You guys just don’t like it when someone tries to inject some reality on here, and that is irrefutable.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
We're critical of A LOT of things about the Cubs.
You must not really read BCB very often.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Okay you've got a point
maybe it’s just when someone who is not part of the “brotherhood” makes negative posts that you go into attack mode.
No, I take that back. It’s only when someone has the temerity to try to “take your hope away”. I guess your hope must be in a pretty fragile state if someone posting all the way from Arizona can steal it away so easily.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You're don't seem to be able to match up posters with their comments..
I never accused you of trying to “take (my) hope away”.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
SWL
I was using you and your in the group sense. Did not mean you specifically. I think I am pretty clear on who said what.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Haha, you are quite funny.
What I assumed was you wouldn’t read or give my post any consideration, just rush to tell me how I was wrong.
Exactly what you did. Please, hero, you aren’t the only one who injects realism. As I said in the post you didn’t read, just told how I was wrong, a lot of people criticize a lot of things about the Cubs on here.
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
You were wrong several places
One of them being when you implied that I was being disingenuous when I acted like I was unaware of all of Blou’s transgressions. I just explained to you why you were wrong about that.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
ok, i knew you'd be sure to point out how I was wrong, phew. Thanks for explaining that.
hmm, no repsonse to what the hell it is exactly what you are argiung about. You have studied Blou, well, grasshopper. That was his favorite, too. Just skip the stuff that makes too much sense.
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
I don't care how hard
you guys try to tie me to BLou, it isn’t going to stick. It’s a nice attempt to try to recover when you ain’t got nothing else, but unfortunately, it has no basis at all. The next lame thing from you clowns is that you will try to say that I am BLou. That will, finally, make me mad.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You'll tell us to pound sand?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Clowns? Humm...
… calling names to deflect from the conversation when cornered? How very BLou-esque of you!
As the man would say… TOTAL GARBAGE!
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Yes
It is interesting that, after trying for several hours, you have finally raised my ire. I am done.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The old "I am done" thing huh?
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Yes, here is what I was told by a very smart poster here:
“I love it when people are shown to be completely off base and they respond by saying, "I’m moving on" It’s pretty hard to follow that.”
Oh wait, that was the jazzman…
He’s on the Diamondbacks site with his real friends now. Gametime!
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
The surest way to tell you've won a debate...
… is when your opponent stops trying to refute you and starts trying to insult you.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
The fact that you...
… seem to most closely identify with a dude who has been banned multiple times and was just yesterday seen calling somebody a cu*t says volumes about you.
We don’t have a problem with reality. Most of us are acutely aware of it. Some are over the top “kool-aid drinkers” but why is that any less ok than your supposed “reality”? Because you say so? Ok…
We have a problem with self righteous “shame on you for holding out hope” comments.
Maybe its time for another break. You are taking this all far to personally.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
OK that is where I draw the line
You are way out of bounds. I do not identify with BLou and I resent your saying that. And you’re damn right I take that personally. The fact that you would say that, following your out of bounds comment about loved ones with incurable diseases, just proves what type of person you are. I have not felt the need to make such outrageous comments about you.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Did i hurt your feelings?
Don’t worry… its not you, its me.
You’ve come off the tracks here man. If my metaphor was out of bounds, somebody other than the one it was directed at (you) would have let me know so. Al has no problem telling people when they’ve crossed the line, and he’s the one that draws the lines around here, not you.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Not a BCB line
you dolt. You have gone out of bounds with me.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Oh heavens, what ever shall i do?
Well, this ‘clown dolt’ has had enough of debating with you today, now that your vitriol has devolved from poor attempts at defending yourself to pure insults.
Its been real. I’m off to Wrigley.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
His thinly veiled accusations...
… that i’m not a “real” cubs fan because i cling to the sliver of hope that the Cubs could make the playoffs cracks me right the hell up.
Just an absolutely absurd line of thinking.
Somebody needs a hug.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I know I do
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
I'm glad it cracks you up
because that isn’t even close to what I said. I’m glad you have a sense of humor, because your reading skills aren’t very good.
What I said was, any true cubs fan, like Jessica or Al, for instance, both of whom I consider friends, would not be threatened by anything I wrote in any of my posts. They would not be threatened because, #1, they know I nearly always back up my contentions with actual numbers, which after all, is the essence of baseball, and #2, they know me well enough to know that I am amused and entertained by, and in fact, much admire Cubs fans for their loyalty and enthusiasm, even during trying times.
I wouldn’t even be here if that wasn’t the case, and if you weren’t so busy being threatened by some totally benign baseball chatter, you could see that.
Funny, I can banter with Al about the prospects of a Cubs sweep of the D’Backs in the last series of the year, and Al can trot out his numbers and I can trot out mine, and there is no need for it to get personal. We respect each other and that’s not going to change. That is why I am somewhat suspect when you maintain that I am the only problem here.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Wait, what happened to you ignoring me?
Right here, ballhawk proposes an entirely possible albeit unlikely way the cubs sneak in to the playoffs. Numbers, facts, all that stuff you claim to so dearly love (so long as it doesn’t get in the way of your pessimism).
Your response?
No numbers, no evidence. Just dismissing his hopeful scenario for the sake of doing so. And i could scroll though your comment history here and find plenty of other examples of you doing the same. Why? Why is it so hard for you to just accept somebodies hope as how they celebrate their fandom?
Again, it insults your baseball sensibility? How lame.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
That is hilarious
That was like, the first thing I posted this morning, while I was still having my coffee, and since then I have made a gazillion posts explaining why that is so. You have got to be kidding with this one.
That is the real reason I have kept reading your posts. The amusement value is incredible.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Oh... so you are only a "grumpy gus" when you haven't had your coffee yet?
Fine, man. Than i think a run over to Starbucks is in order.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I don't even drink coffee
I was just being facetious.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Just for the record
I am very much a proponent of hugs.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You are blindly
missing the point. I don’t care one way or the other if every Cubs fan in the world goes to bed at night chanting, “we still have a chance, we still have a chance”. It just offends my baseball sensibility when fact, logic, and common sense are twisted all out of shape in a lame attempt to support their optimism. I have never once tried to say the Cubs don’t have a chance, or that it is impossible for them to pull off a miracle. But, I don’t think it is being mean, insensitive or anything else you might accuse me of to point out the uphill battle that the Cubs are facing. If anything, a real Cubs fan could easily take that as evidence of what an incredible feat it would be if they were able to pull it off.
If you take that as me being the Grinch that Stole Christmas, then I think that says a lot more about you than me.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The fact that...
… you seem to be swimming against a tide of popular opinion here should maybe clue you in that the problem might just be you, not the rest of us.
If we all so deeply “offend your baseball sensibility”, go elsewhere. No purpose in taking on the world just to “prove” to everyone else that there is no hope.
I feel bad for the loved one in your life that comes down with some sort of disease that they have little chance to recover from, if this is how you trudge through your day-to-day.
Hope isn’t bad. Again, i must repeat (at the risk of “offending your baseball sensibility”): HOPE IS NOT BAD.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Additionally...
All of us “real” cubs fans here aren’t saying it WILL happen. In fact, we aren’t even saying it is LIKELY to happen. Some here like to dream about how it MIGHT happen, or look at historical scenarios where similar comebacks DID happen. There is no harm in that, but you seem to take offense to it.
We know its unlikely. We don’t need to be reminded by the likes of you every time we allow a sliver of hope to shine through.
An innate desire to rain on everybody else’s parade is an odd thing.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Now that statement
is just plain ridiculous. Do you really think that the fact that I do not fall in line with a bunch of kool aid drinkers, which make up the vast majority of the responses I have gotten, somehow makes me the one that is the problem, as you put it?
I have been through this before. This is a blog for baseball discussion, not just blind Cubs worship. If Al asks me to leave, I’ll leave. I really don’t feel the need to take advice in that regard from someone whose thought process is warped enough to try to draw a bizarre parallel between a baseball pennant race and a loved one with a terminal disease.
And for the record, I NEVER SAID HOPE WAS BAD. For the last time. Just trying to put it in some perspective.
Do me and yourself a favor and refrain from responding. You comment about a loved one caused me to lose interest in hearing any more of what you have to say.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Its a perfectly good comparison.
And discounting it for the sake of discounting it isn’t going to do you any better than you did above in your little debate with SWL.
Proclaiming something to be so does not make it so.
And pissing in the cereal of everyone who shows hope by pointing out the painfully obvious “its not likely” may make you feel like a better baseball fan, but it does so at the expense of people that do you no harm. We don’t need you to point out the obvious OVER AND OVER AND OVER. We get it.
Some here like to play the hope game. You don’t. We get it.
Get over yourself.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Wow, you are obsessed with getting banned.
Relax, read the guidelines, Al gives a lot of warnings. Paranoid much?
In that same vein, weren’t you the one above grousing about intolerance of viewpoints? Something like:
“Which just proves my point from yesterday about the intolerance here for any point of view that doesn’t fit the accepted company line. Sort of like Nazi Germany.”
Maybe you shouldn’t be asking someone to refrain from posting?
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
Now tell me
exactly what have I said that would warrant getting banned? Please, I would love to hear.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You brought up banning, nobody else.
You have acute paranoia that your doomsday predictions will result in you not being welcome here anymore. I’ve never seen any evidence that something like that takes place at BCB.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
Well, it might be a fine point
but to me, Al asking me to leave is a much different thing than me being banned. As we discussed yesterday, banning is reserved for people using being profane or abusive. I don’t think I have been either.
However, if Al were to email me off blog and say, “You are upsetting people and I don’t think your posts are contributing anything to the group other than to annoy people”, then I would have to consider retiring from BCB. I know that might make some of you happy, but I really don’t think that view is universally held.
BTW, as far as my paranoia, as you put it. I have left BCB before, for long periods, because I was made to feel not welcome, so there is precident. It always winds up with someone telling me that I am not welcome because I am not a Cubs fan, and I cannot argue with that, because I am not. But, I do enjoy the baseball banter on here, and despite what some of you think, I like it when people challenge me and disagree with something I have said. It makes me think more and that is not a bad thing. But, if the vast majority of people here are irritated by my posts, then there is no reason for me to be here.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
You like it when people challenge you and disagree with what you say...
and then complain about being challenged and argued with.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
When did I ever do that?
I didn’t even complain when you called me a ridiculous jerk. I just pointed out that it was a personal attack. But, trust me, it did not bother me. Sorry, but I am skeptical on this until and unless you provide some examples.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
And I quote...
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
ouch
ftw
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
That comment is not about people disagreeing
with me, SWL, and you know it.
That is about people questioning my motives, my intelligence, my sensitivity and my social skills when I make a point.
C’mon, you’re going to have to do better than that.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
All I ask
is that is you disagree with something I have posted, support it with something tangible. Instead, I get called a jerk, accused of wanting to steal people’s hope, and somehow insensitive to my loved ones.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
I haven't called you a jerk...
… or anything else.
I’ve pointed out your desire to debate peoples hopeful comments, but thats really what we are debating here, so whatever.
And i didn’t accuse you of being insensitive to your loved ones, i used a metaphor where one of your loved ones was sick and had very little hope, and asked if you’d respond to them in the same way you’ve responded to cubs fans hoping to make the postseason.
Maybe SWL’s “you must not tell your kids about Santa” comment was less hurtful to you, but the point is the same.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I'm the one who called him a jerk Andrew.
when he saw fit to “apologize”.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
It's strange to make this kind of demand...
when our conversation was about the possible outcome of something that’s already occurred. We simply disagree about what was possible. You’re facts to support your opinion are the actual things that happened, my opinion over what could have been possible is just that, and opinion.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Hey man... i'm not questioning your fandom.
I don’t belive you’d be here if you weren’t a fan.
I’m questioning your tolerance for fans who don’t subscribe to your pessimistic ways. It clearly burns your britches when somebody gets all excited for the possibility of something good happening, remote as it may be.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
If you think
my saying that the Cubs are facing an EXTREME uphill battle, despite the recent wins makes me pessimistic, well, then I don’t know what to say. I am also pessimistic that the Diamondbacks will win all of their remaining games, so I guess that must make me a Gloomy Gus.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Gloomy Gus.
On that, finally, we can agree.
Now if only you wouldn’t be so damn combative about it whenever a Happy Hector showed his face.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I really
would like to hear examples of my supposed combativeness. I never called anybody a jerk or told them that they must be insensitive to a loved one with a terminal disease. All I have done is to try to make a point and back it up with facts. If that makes me combative in your eyes, then that’s on you.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
The "its not me, its you" argument seems to be a popular one with you.
I don’t have to provide more examples of your combativeness. I did so right here, and you’ve yet to respond to the comment.
And I don’t have to convince everyone else as its pretty evident to the masses, it seems.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
No, you just compared us to Nazi Germany.
Totally non-combative thing to do.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
completely missed the point. you have done nothing to get banned. hence paranoia
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
see above
i answered this in detail
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Oh and for the record
I didn’t ask what’s his face from refrain from posting, I just asked to refrain from responding to me, because I had no intention of reading any more of what he has to say.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Ah, the old "i win because i'm not paying attention any more" argument.
NAH NAH NAH NAH I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
Works every time!
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I CANT SEE YOU
YOU CANT SEE ME
jesus christos - September 16, 2009
Also popular:
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
WHOOSH!
the sound of this one going right over my head. Saying that I’m in favor of hugs means that I am not paying attention anymore? Sorry, I don’t get it.
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Acting like...
… you weren’t going to read what i had to say in response to your comment is akin to placing your fingers squarely in your ears and pretending i’m not there.
And you clearly read it and couldn’t resist responding 10 minutes later anyways, so whatever.
The hugs thing had nothing to do with this little tangent of the argument.
Are you confused about how these conversational comment threads work?
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
I take it you also tell your children there is no Santa Claus.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
but there is a tooth fairy
jesus christos - September 16, 2009
Wow - I go away to the Cubs game and come home to quite the extended thread here...
I suppose I was one of the instigators in all this, but I never intended it to get to the levels I’ve seen so far (and I have quite a few comments to still read). So my apologies for starting somewhat of a landslide – but then again, it appears azjazzman has no problems parrying all thrusts in his general direction so I won’t lose too much sleep over it.
I realize this thread is probably played out but I’m picking this particular comment to respond to because I think it contains a very critical phrase that might explain why a lot of us here seem to differ with azjazzman on this topic (my emphasis).
Can’t speak for the others, but to me, hope kinda implies a certain lack of realism – that’s why we hope.
If we felt there was a realistic chance for something to happen, we probably don’t put as much effort/thought into hoping for it because we already think it’s gonna happen. But when the chips are down, we’re facing significant challenges and the odds are not good, well…. that’s when “hope” kicks in.
I guess my point is, I don’t see a need to respond/refute every hope-laden comment with facts/figures/realistic assessments. I think most, if not all of us, understand what we’re up against – that’s why we’re hoping…
ballhawk - September 16, 2009
Thanks ballhawk.
You captured it much better than i was able.
Dum spiro spero…
Unrelated note: I was up in the bleachers and saw a couple of guys scrambling for the Fox foul ball that just barely went left of the pole mid-game. Any chance that was you?
AndrewJStone - September 17, 2009
Mr. Stone, I admire your persistence on this thread
I like the Latin quote, and feel uneducated that I had never seen it before. I think that Al should put it in the masthead.
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
Thank you!
Took a little Latin in high school and that phrase stuck with me.
In fact, i think i’ll make it my sig line.
AndrewJStone - September 17, 2009
When the Jays went up 3.5 games with a win against the Tigers, Gibson was quoted after the game that "Maybe we're setting the biggest bear trap of all time".
He was right.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
The collar tightens considerably the last weeks of the season as you try and clinch.
Everything is magnified…
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Wait, is it tightened or magnified?
daver - September 16, 2009
Both.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Players start worrying about hitting slumps and making errors.
Pitchers try to win every start themselves.
As Ronnie says: When you’re ahead, it seems like inches. When you’re behind, it seem like miles.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
It is
tightnified
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
That too...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
this year?
doofus cubs guy - September 16, 2009
Why is it that
there was a reporter with the chutzpah to ask Zambrano about trade rumors after the game (which, honestly, I thought was a totally unnecessary question to ask at the time) but no one is questioning Lou’s practical refusal to play Fox?
cwpettis - September 16, 2009
I'm gonna guess
That a 10-4 record in September eases the pressure on the manager for questionable personnel moves. Just a hunch.
Clutch16 - September 16, 2009
Good question.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Fox has started once in the last two weeks...
There HAS to be a reason for that that the public doesn’t know about.
kanderber - September 16, 2009
We're on a "need-to-know" basis I guess.
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
Yep
And it’s almost certainly not a good reason for someone involved.
DGU - September 16, 2009
Steve Cochran of WGN asked Lou why Jake Fox hasn't been playing much...
…on Monday, September 14, and here’s a transcription of what Lou said:
(I subscribe to the Lou Piniella Show podcast and still have the episode on my iPod.)
Jake went 1 for 3 that night with a single.
daver - September 16, 2009
And then sat the next night.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
I don't really get it either.
Your theory that Fox did or said something to aggravate Lou still seems like the most plausible explanation. Unless maybe Sam Fuld has put Lou on a defensive kick and he thinks Scales’ D outweights Jake’s bat. Assuming the wind isn’t howling in, I’d rather have Fox in the lineup – especially against an offensive team like the Brewers.
daver - September 16, 2009
Scales maybe better than Fox defensively
But he is my view below average and his play last nigh showed it. I have no idea why Lou keeps starting him over Fox.
Doggie Stalker - September 16, 2009
Fish up 4-0 bottom of the 2nd in StL...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Mid 3 now...
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Now end 3.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
MID 4
Zeke - September 16, 2009
END 4.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
This is riveting play by play!
santoswoodenlegs - September 16, 2009
If riveting play by play falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound?
I’m just giving the essence of what you need to know…;)
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Fish out in the 5th. Still 4-0 Fish over the Cards.
BTW: The Cards FOX announcers say they’ll put the division away this weekend verses the Cubs.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Someone posted yesterday if we won that game, the Cards couldn't clinch this weekend
color me confused
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
I think they mean they'll put a stranglehold on it with a sweep.
They’re Cards announcers. Numbers confuse them…
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Ok, I get it. Thanks, I don't speak St. Louis dumbass
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
Cards out in the 5th. 4-0 Fish.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Pinero out now for the Cards. Reyas coming in. One on for the Fish.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Fish fail to score with a RISP. 4-0 Fish mid 6.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Cards score. 4-1 Fish. 2 out single, Molina scores. Johnson still in for FLA.
That’s it for me. I’m heading out. Go (you g****mn) Fish!
Zeke - September 16, 2009
I May be in San Francisco on the 27th
I’ve never been to that ballpark. Does anyone have suggestions for where to sit if I can swing it?
shifafaontheside - September 16, 2009
Inside.
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Try to find a chair or some sort.
AndrewJStone - September 16, 2009
on your butt?
BleedsbluinMI - September 16, 2009
I've sat in several locations
at AT&T and I don’t think there is a bad seat in the whole ballpark. The upper deck has outstanding sight lines and you still feel close to the field, and you get the extra benny of the panoramic view of the bay and China Basin. sigh
azjazzman - September 16, 2009
Thanks for the advice
A bit more helpful than Zeke’s
shifafaontheside - September 16, 2009
Sorry. I've got a keyboard full of wise ass this afternoon.
I keep trying to discipline it, but to no avail…
Zeke - September 16, 2009
Not a problem
My keyboard gets its share of wiseass too
shifafaontheside - September 16, 2009
I've been to SF as well.
… azjazzman is correct. There really isn’t a bad seat in the house.
Al Yellon - September 16, 2009
Great stadium
Be sure to get the signature garlic fries or whatever they were, I remember the taste, not the name.
I would try and get seats in the RF upper deck. It’s a great place to watch baseball and all the sightlines are great. The view of the bay from right field is spectacular.
IllinoisCubs - September 16, 2009
Thanks
I appreciate all the help. By the way, Garlic fries are great at Safeco Field in Seattle too. I’ll be there next June!
shifafaontheside - September 16, 2009
In a van down by the river!
daver - September 16, 2009
There are a few bad seats
But easy to avoid. They are on the left side upper level, where the upper level abruptly ends — there are just a few sight-obstructed seats there. My wife had a company outing that was there, and they must have bought the last seats in the ballpark. I would guess that there are a few similar seats in the symmetrical location on the right side.
The other recommendations are good, too. Upper deck on the right side has the best views of the bay and SF skyline. The garlic fries are great, as are the Sheboygan brats. And microbrews, lots of great microbrews. Be sure to take a walk around the ballpark while you are there — you can go all the way around, and see the giant mitt and the boat traffic in McCovey cove up close. Plus, you will probably find even more great food and drink than I am aware of.
vonde6 - September 16, 2009
wow it felt like just a day ago the cubs were 8.5 back of colorado
jesus christos - September 16, 2009
If John Havlicek made the 6th man famous,
I think we can given Aaron Miles the “26th Man” award this year.
No doubt Miles contributions would have been better had he been kept off the active roster.
Maybe BCB can whip up a 26th man t-shirt in his honor—XXS only.
LAcarl519 - September 16, 2009
Have a cage match where Joey Gathright, Ryan Freel and Aaron Miles can't leave the
batters box until one makes contact with 10 BP pitches in a row.
N Oakley - September 16, 2009
Another Angle...
Finish off the sweep of the Brewers, take 3 from the Cards, and we’re suddenly 4 games back in the Central with 15 to play.
St. Louis has been struggling lately, so it’s not impossible.
STLCubby - September 16, 2009
Yep :) Just keep winning
heine41 - September 16, 2009
Pujols just got nailed in the shoulder to force in run number 2
5-2 fish, bases loaded bottom ninth
heine41 - September 16, 2009
saint holliday grounds into a game ending DP
UNPOSSIBLE
jesus christos - September 16, 2009
its a thing of beauty
heine41 - September 16, 2009
thank God
teh Marlins don’t have Gregg closing for them—GW walk-off.
socalbob - September 16, 2009
instead they have a cocky closer who hates khill
jesus christos - September 16, 2009
Game reminded me of some of my daughters'
10U softball games…
blackhawk24 - September 16, 2009
sorry
but i wont let myself get sucked back into the cubs getting to the postseason. but i do enjoy seein them play well and trying to finish 2nd. only divine intervention could help us now.
NOMAR - September 16, 2009
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