NOW what do you do with Rich Harden?
One of the more exasperating talents in recent years to wear a Cub uniform, Harden has had great success this year in night games (6-3, 2.66 before last night's game). So you figured that he'd be ready for a good performance against the Brewers. Unfortunately, Harden suddenly remembered that he was pitching at Wrigley Field (3-6, 5.90 before last night's game), and gave up hit after bloop hit in three innings of work. It took him 71 pitches to get nine outs and at that point, Lou had seen enough and sent Aaron Miles up to bat for him. It seemed a good idea to get Miles out of the way early, but he actually got a hit and scored a run. The last time Miles did both of those in the same game was on August 8 in Colorado, where he hit his only triple of the year.
In any case, Harden's bad outing -- he was charged with only two earned runs of the five he allowed, because a tough grounder that glanced off Aramis Ramirez's glove was ruled an error after the fact -- helped lead the Cubs to 9-5 loss to the Brewers in a game they simply could not afford to lose in their desperate charge to get back into the wild card race. With the Rockies hanging on, barely, to win 4-3 over the Giants late last night, the Cubs trail by 6.5 games with 18 to go.
Deficits like this have been overcome in the past, and more than once. But it's getting more difficult each day.
Much as I hate to admit it, BLou was probably right about David Patton. Can we declare this experiment over? I'm not sure if the Cubs had anyone else who could have occupied the slot given over to the Rule 5 acquisition for three months, but Patton, who will be 26 next May, came in to relieve Harden and wasn't really any better. He walked two, gave up four hits and was charged with four earned runs when Justin Berg allowed a two-run single in relief of him in the fifth inning. Actually, that single by Corey Hart was the blow that put the game away, because without that the Cubs would have reduced the deficit to 7-5 instead of 9-5, and then you've got a much closer game.
The Cubs had plenty of baserunners -- sixteen of them, courtesy of 13 hits and three walks, but hit into a pair of rally-crushing double plays. The most deflating of those occurred in the eighth inning when the first two men reached base, only to see Ryan Theriot hit into a DP. Theriot actually had a good night, reaching base safely in his first four plate appearances with three hits and a walk, but when crunch time came he failed.
Lou actually appeared to be awake last night; I think the Cubs moving back into marginal contention energized him, at least for a while. He double-switched the pitcher's spot three different times, including yanking Milton Bradley out of the game after he grounded out with two runners on to end the third inning. Paul Sullivan says there might have been something beyond a double-switch involved:
Bradley looked so disinterested during his second-inning strikeout that Piniella yanked him after the third. Piniella downplayed it afterward, saying it was only a double-switch.
I agree with Lou, although the score was 5-2 at the time and Micah Hoffpauir, who replaced Bradley in right field, didn't do any better, flying to left and hitting a comebacker before he was removed in another double-switch.
So the Cubs face the task of mounting a long winning streak starting today and getting some help if they're going to overcome the 6.5 game deficit. Impossible? No. Unlikely? Yes. But I'd like to see them finish the season strong. And as for Harden... frustrating, maddening, aggravating, whatever other adjectives you'd like to add. He's got top-line ability, but many times looks like he has no idea what he's doing out there. Sullivan's article says:
Piniella said he may give Harden an extra day of rest before his next start, inserting Tom Gorzelanny into the mix.
Gorzelanny (and the nine-days-missing Sean Marshall, too) threw well last night in relief. That's a good idea. The Cubs can pick up a half-game with a win today. Keep the faith -- it's not over, not yet.
0 recs | 196 comments
Is it time to don the viking helmut and braided blonde ponytails?
Yikes. Times getting REALLY short now boys & girls…
Zeke - September 17, 2009
The things you learn about people...
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
TMI anyone?
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
Reminds me of one of the final scenes from St. Elsewhere...
when Dr. Fiscus is trying to decide whether he should leave the hospital or not (for good) and suddenly an ER curtain next to him is pulled back revealing a very large woman in full Valkyrie attire singing an aria at the top of lungs (the running joke was she had lost her voice and was there the entire episode getting treatment).
The fat lady’s warming up…
Zeke - September 17, 2009
SPOILER ALERT. Do not read if you have not seen last episode.
Of course the FINAL scene reveals that the entire show was in fact a fantasy in the mind of an autistic child. Sounds
about right for the Cubs , at least this year.
One of my all time favorite shows.
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
That and the final episode of Newhart were flashback/dream sequence CLASSICS...
Now one of those seasons of Dallas? Not so much :P
Zeke - September 17, 2009
LOL....
That show ended 20 years ago and you want to give a spoiler alert?
One of my faves, too.
carmen_fanzone - September 17, 2009
It is being ru-run on cable and I am guessing some folks never saw it.
For the KIDS here, this is one the best shows ever and you can see Denzel Washington. Howie Mandel, David Morse,
Mark Harmon and other actors early in their careers. For us old folks Ed Flanders, Norman Lloyd and the one and only William Daniels.
FYI the final episode was excellent but the final episode of Newhart is my favorite of this “genre” . Much more than the final scene. The parody of FIDDLER was PRICELESS.
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
I think the Cubs will not re-sign Harden...
Unless the payroll goes up again or unless the team is able to shed salary via trade, there just isn’t the flexibility to take on his contract next year. I think we’re going to have to hope that Wells maintains his 2009 form next year and that one of Marshall and Gorzellany establishes himself as a solid fifth starter.
SouthernCub - September 17, 2009
And that Zambrano... if he's not traded
actually acts his age and does his situps
Worf - September 17, 2009
Yes... we'd need the other three to remain sub-4.00 ERA guys...
and Wells to do well. And then hope that Marshall or Gorzellany to be a ~4.50 or better ERA.
SouthernCub - September 17, 2009
Z says he's not going anywhere....
http://tinyurl.com/nbl3g5
LT - September 17, 2009
So did Jake Peavy.
NTC’s get waived all the time.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
RIght
That’s why I said Z says he’s not going anywhere instead of Z is not going anywhere.
LT - September 17, 2009
Let Harden walk.
Use that money on a reliever and either SS or 2nd. Hopefully the offense rebounds and in July trade for an ace. Or maybe sign someone like
Brad Penny if you could him somewhat cheap/5M or less.
Zy Toro Young - September 17, 2009 via mobile
I think your right
Cubs will let Harden go.Pick up another 4-5 starter type to compete with Marshall, and Gorzo for the 5 hole. Harden is to high risk. He will get some team to bite for 7-10M a year for at least 2 years.
Grockcubs - September 17, 2009
I actually hope we don't overpay for another #4-5 type...
If we’re letting Harden go to save money, then overpaying for another #4-5 type doesn’t make much sense to me. Take the full savings and use the money elsewhere.
SouthernCub - September 17, 2009
Offer Harden Arbitration
He would probably command a 1 yr deal of $10mm or so. He would be well worth that. However, this is the one time in his career that he has been healthy for a long stretch of time. I can’t see him turning down the chance to secure a long term deal. He would most likely turn down arbitration and the Cubs would get 2 first round picks for him.
DON’T just let him walk.
Archie - September 17, 2009
So now we agree with Sullivan?
I so confused
Worf - September 17, 2009
No, I said I agreed with Lou.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Yeah, but you gave Sully some cred here
I for one have no problem believing that Bradley is no longer interested.
Worf - September 17, 2009
Y'know, in weeks past...
…this would be the point where I might leap to Milton’s defense. But I’m going to confess right here and now that this very suspicion has been creeping into my mind for the last few days.
Milton has drawn no walks so far in the month of September. None. Now I haven’t seen every one of his ABs in the last two to three weeks but, in the ones I have seen, he seems to be either hacking at everything or standing there watching pitches too close to take go by him – even before his usual two-strike count. (Last night’s three-pitch strikeout being a prime example.)
He did get robbed on a potential RBI single last night, which could have changed Lou’s decision to pull him, but he just doesn’t look like the same hyperfocused guy we saw earlier in the season. And I’m starting to wonder…
daver - September 17, 2009
Was listening to the AM sports spew on the way to the office and they were speculating their belief
that either Lou or Bradley have to go as they do not seem to be able to coexist. Shocking I tell you, just shocking.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
how about both?
is that a choice?
Illicat - September 17, 2009
The theory is they can't work together.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Ack, reading is fundamental.
Both to go, I’m okay with that.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
yes, both to leave
I don’t want to see either one of them in Cubbie Blue next year
Illicat - September 17, 2009
Slumps happen
Just as his April and May are probably not indicative of the real Bradley, it’s likely that neither was July or August.
My concern is that this coincides with him hitting 5th and 6th. You know, the job he was brought here to do.
Worf - September 17, 2009
Why in the world did we bring him here to bat 5th?
Why didn’t we just get the best RF we could get and then find out where he best fits? Why keep trying to force players into roles that don’t necessarily fit them?
DGU - September 17, 2009
I think you know the answer to that question: Lou.
His need to have a left-handed bat in the middle of the lineup seems to trump everything.
daver - September 17, 2009
Well, yeah, Lou -
but why, Lou, why?
DGU - September 17, 2009
It's a comfort blanket
When he’s had a lefty in the middle of the order, he’s generally been successful. In Seattle, it was John Olerud; in Cincinnati he had Paul O’Neill and Hal Morries.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
Shocking concept
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
I hope you're right.
It just seems like, during Milton’s earlier slumps, he was still seeing a lot of pitches and drawing walks. His approach lately seems to be either hack at anything or stand there and do nothing. I’m not sure I have the energy for another Milton Bradley debate; I just needed to confess my own suspicions that, for some reason (and a few different ones come to mind), he’s gone into coast mode.
daver - September 17, 2009
That's enough of a reason for me to send him packing
Time to admit your mistake, Hendry, and get this cancer out of town.
Itchy - September 17, 2009
I figured it would be.
daver - September 17, 2009
In all fairness...
… you wanted him gone in the midst of that .500 homestand as well, so its not exactly shocking that you continue to do so.
I agree, MB hasn’t lived up to the promise we’d all hoped for. I’m just not sure its time to ditch him yet. He’s proven the ability to be a productive early in the order on-base type guy, and his defense doesn’t blow.
Sure, it isn’t working now, and if the cubs can figure out why in the off season and be reasonably assured the issue won’t continue, he may be worth keeping.
AndrewJStone - September 17, 2009
I have a hard time believing it was "just a double-switch" in the third inning
Piniella is doing the right thing here by not publicly calling out the player, but there was more to it than that. I don’t care who the beat writer is.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
I have a problem believing a word Sullivan writes
Especially when it comes to Milton.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
Yes
Bradley-baiting is one of Sullivan’s favorite activities. Like Dat Daver, I am weary of defending Bradley, however. I am in coast mode, too.
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
I agree.
sue369 - September 17, 2009
I don't know about writing off Patton
I do know it was a very, very bad choice to put them in the game THAT early when there was a chance to come back. Glad Lou was awake to pull double switches etc but not putting in Marshall or Gorzo for Harden killed the Cubs chances of coming back .
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
Agreed.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Why did we ever bother writing *IN* Patton?
The Cubs decided, for whatever reason, that they were cool with a 24-man roster for the first three months of the season. Is David Patton really that kind of a super-talent?
I can see Cincy doing this with Hamilton when they first signed him, because he obviously had the talent.
I can see PIT doing this with Veal, or KC doing this with, well, anyone they want really, because they aren’t really trying to contend and who cares.
But this is not something that contending teams do. The Cubs’ decision to go with a 13-man bullpen leaves the bench short one bat. Then, their decision to give one of the 13 spots to a Rule 5 acquisition essentially leaves the pen down an arm. (And Lou’s random decisions to let certain pitchers rot in the pen for weeks on end leaves the pen down another arm, but that’s neither here nor there.)
Bottom line – the Dodgers, Phillies, Angels, Yankees and Red Sox don’t seem to be all that interested in rostering middling Rule 5 players all year. Why are the Cubs doing these ridiculous things?
D98 - September 17, 2009
Sometimes, Rule 5 guys contribute.
But Patton was never one of those type of guys.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
The problem is not that Patton is rule 5
They did a reasonably effective job of getting his 90 days but WTF was he doing in LAST NIGHT when the game was
still within reach. I don’t know if Lou is stupid, senile or just trying to say F you to Hendry, media and fans.
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
Yeah, Heilman should have been in there to shut the Brewers down.
santoswoodenlegs - September 17, 2009
I don't know if you are kidding
but the obvious thing was to put in MARSHALL or GORZO. They are long relief guys but this a function Lou is apparently unaware of. Heilman would have been a very reasonable option had he not pitched yesterday but he still would have been a more logical choice.
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
Totally agree.
daver - September 17, 2009
Both the Phillies and Red Sox have done so with Rule 5 picks
The Red Sox had both Lenny DiNardo and Adam Stern on their roster as Rule 5 guys (though, admittedly, neither one is a major player at this point) in 2003 and 2004.
And the Phillies picked up some guy named Shane Victorino as a Rule 5 pick.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
Yeah, but the Phillies didn't keep him on the MLB roster at all.
The Phillies offered Victorino back at the start of the season, but the Dodgers just completely gave up on him, and let the Phils have him. The Phils sent him to the minors.
As for the Red Sox -
Adam Stern was chosen in the Dec. 2004 Rule 5 draft, broke his hand in 2005 spring training, and sat on the DL until July, and then got used as a 5th OF who could play CF.
Lenny DiNardo was chosen in the Dec. 2003 Rule 5 draft, started the season on the DL, was on the team in May and June, and then spent the second half of the season on the DL. Similar to the Patton situation, in that regard.
D98 - September 17, 2009
I agree.
But the fact remains that contending teams are still using the Rule 5 Draft to pick up players.
Now, I agree that the Cubs hurt themselves by keeping Patton on the active roster for 3 months and handicapping the team, but I can understand the argument that teams like the Cubs/Red Sox/Phillies can afford to take a flier on a Rule 5 pick and try and stash him on the roster for the year.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
Not easily
Playing with a 24-man roster, with a manager who goes through substitutions like Greg House goes through vicodin isn’t a winning formula.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
It's not easy by any stretch.
But with a reliable bullpen, the Cubs probably could have afforded to keep Patton (or a better Rule 5 pick) on the active roster. The fact that Heilman, Vizcaino, etc., were awful for the first couple months only exacerbated the fact that the bullpen was more thin because Patton was around and couldn’t be sent down.
Frankly, the Cubs should have offered Colorado a bucket of balls and gotten Patton down to Iowa or Tennessee in May, when they needed a live arm.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
That would require planning
Something that does not happen under the watch of Hendry and Piniella.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
Sadly, it does not seem to be a skill used in 2009.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
...and 2008.....and 2007...
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
Write him off,
he’s a 26 year old nothing, those are a dime a dozen.
Itchy - September 17, 2009
I'm twice that age. Can I have my twenty cents now, please?
I have 11 other people here with me…
Zeke - September 17, 2009
LOL
Itchy - September 17, 2009
Are they 26 as well? ;-)
Vermont Cubs Fan - September 17, 2009
No one said that was a requirement...
Since they are “imaginary” people, I can imagine they are all 26, yes…
Zeke - September 17, 2009
Good point.
You win! ;-)
Vermont Cubs Fan - September 17, 2009
We will put him on waivers
The Cardinals will pick him up for nothing and he will will 20 games for them next year…. isn’t that how it goes?
Icubsfan - September 17, 2009
Not sure that's all that old for a pitcher.
daver - September 17, 2009
It's maddening
to seemingly never know if your pitcher will be on! Where’s the consistency? Tough to count on any of our pitches except Lilly. As far as Zambrano bring our ace, I think that’s long gone.
Saratoga - September 17, 2009
Dempster has been really good lately
And I think Wells has been good enough to count on.
But Harden and Z both fell short (though it didn’t matter as much with Z) in starts that were extremely important. I think last night’s game cements Harden’s departure.
elgato - September 17, 2009
Terrible post
Tough to count on any of out pitchers except Lilly. As far as Zambrano being our ace. I think that’s long gone.
Sorry about the errors.
Saratoga - September 17, 2009
My take
Where is Guzman. Is he hurt? Saving him for 2010? Or is the doghouse door closed and locked.
Harden last night hardly if ever hit 90MPH on the gun. Patton in that spot, I just didn’t have any confidence he could keep the Brewers in check.
It is a shame Fuld is hurt, he could spell both Dome and Bradley for a game or two.
IMO Bradley does look uninterested. When you are a so called “OBP machine” and don’t take a walk in 13 games this month it is odd to say the least. It is almost like, “screw it, they want me to drive in runs from the 5 hole, fine I am hacking away” And of course last night first AB never swings the bat, takes 4 pitches then back to the dugout. Dome and Bradley are the two concerns that I have for next year. Cubs can not continue to get that poor of production from those two. Milton’s game is just frustrating.
Grockcubs - September 17, 2009
Guzman apparently IS hurt.
He may be available today.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Triceps thing again, no?
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
I heard last week
that the team is trying to limit innings for Guzman because of his history with injuries and this being his first full non injury season.
KaliCub - September 17, 2009
Where the hec did So Taguchi come from?
Must have missed that on my long commute to the game. That was a surprise.
katie casey - September 17, 2009
Did you keep the sandals on?
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Yes and all I got out of it was blisters.
Got a ticket for only $3.50 for today’s game. I guess that’s the plus side of people giving up on them-I can afford a ticket now. I’m planning on walking the 4 miles from the Metra so it’ll have to be running shoes today.
Cards lost yesterday-trying to keep the faith.
katie casey - September 17, 2009
Gotta check the Fanshot bar!
daver - September 17, 2009
just so used to getting the info asap on here
that I was shocked to find out at the game
katie casey - September 17, 2009
You think YOU had a long commute to the game?
The I-Cubs season is over! Taguchi may have commuted from his home in Japan!
(OK, well, probably not. I’m sorta poking fun at Muskat for her comment yesterday that only Tennesee Smokies would be available b/c the other teams were done…. as if the Cubs organization scatters to the winds at the end of the minor league seasons and they have no idea where their minor leaguers go.)
D98 - September 17, 2009
Sounds like he came from St. Louis but he still has me beat.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090916&content_id=7004006&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc
Speaking of commutes, I have to leave now to catch that train. Bye
katie casey - September 17, 2009
He had the exact kind of at bat I remember from his STL days
a ton of annoying foul balls and eventually making an out. It runs up the pitch count and is fun when he’s on your side, but that stuff used to annoy the shit out of me. Aaron Miles used to do that too, but now he just gets his 4-3 groundout over with without wasting pitches.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
Efficiency, thy name is Miles
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
Put me down as NO on Harden for 2010
Too inconsistent and fragile. Yes, he might put it together someday but I’d bet against it. Unless he would be really cheap, I say NO.
rlpete - September 17, 2009
Not to mention that his primary weapon is failing him
This is a guy who can supposedly bring the heat, but his fastball speeds have been in decline all year. When you don’t have movement or speed, you’re gonna get knocked all over the ballpark. Put me in the “No on Harden in 2010” camp, as well.
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
Agree, offer arb and get the pick when he signs elsewhere.
KaliCub - September 17, 2009
Where are you getting the data on his declining velocity?
I hadn’t heard that.
daver - September 17, 2009
Fukudome is hot...
7 for 55 in Sept. Keep trotting him out there Lou!!
EamuCanoli - September 17, 2009
It is either him or Taguchi
With Fuld out who else can play CF ?
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
At this point, maybe Lou SHOULD start Taguchi today.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Really, why not?
Dome misjudged the ball over his head (I realize Len & Bob were very kind about how the scoreboard altered the winds) and has fallen into a hole at the plate. Taguchi has paid his dues in AAA this year, why not give him a try?
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Because he had a .680 OPS in Iowa?
davidalanu - September 17, 2009
So this is what the season has slipped to...
Rewarding 39 year old veterans for sticking around all season in AAA.
rlpete - September 17, 2009
Only when it turns into death not an option Taguchi or Dome.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Ok but please no Scales or Hoff in CF
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
Hoff in CF would be a bigger white flag...
..than trading Carlos Zambrano.
daver - September 17, 2009
But think of the entertainment value!
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
I find no entertainment in watching or listening to Ron stroke out.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Fox in center might be more amusing.
davidalanu - September 17, 2009
With Fox, he'd do what he's done at every defensive position.
Play it poorly, but better than I expected.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Only if Marshall is playing left.
santoswoodenlegs - September 17, 2009
Silly, Marshall isn't allowed to play anymore.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
TWSS
daver - September 17, 2009
And the alternative?
rlpete - September 17, 2009
I wonder if by Monday
we’ll be talking about maybe catching St. Louis instead of Colorado. They both seem equally difficult to do right now. Obviously, to have any chance in hell at that we’d have to sweep them… (Smoltz, Carpenter, Wainwright… tall order).
Dou - September 17, 2009
Patton
Is Patton really an affect of a ham-strung payroll?
Really now, would he even have been kept in the organization if Hendry were able to go out and spend even a little more money? Not talking a $5M a year reliever but at least something more than a rule 5 guy. Gees.
I’m not necessarily advocating opening of the proverbial bank vault either. But this years team is a clear indication that even though they spent like drunken sailors the previous 2 off seasons, they couldn’t this time around and it cost them, figuratively and literally.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
It cost them figuratively...
but not literally. :)
Dou - September 17, 2009
No.
Hendry took Patton on the word of his scouts. He knew Lou wouldn’t use the last man in the ‘pen very often anyway. Now we can put Patton back in the minors and see if he develops. I’d take another Rule V reliever again next year so long as we’re having a 12 man pitching staff.
DGU - September 17, 2009
Perhaps
We need new scouts
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
Well, you look at a guy like Kyler Burke
who the Cubs’ minor league scouts plucked from SD, and it took him some time to turn it around, but now he has. I think it’s worth giving Patton some time.
DGU - September 17, 2009
We get credit for Burke, but he was certainly highly-regarded.
It’s not as if we saw something great during his time with the Padres’ rookie ball team – Burke was a 1st round pick the year prior, who had a terrible season in rookie ball as an 18-year-old.
However, he was still an 19-year-old 1st rounder, our system is/was largely bereft of legit position player prospects, and we were only trading them Michael Barrett, who we had finally determined was completely incapable of playing catcher at a MLB level and who had just gotten into an actual fistfight with Z.
Also, while I’ve probably been the biggest Kyler Burke fan on this board, let’s not start shampooing each other’s dogs just yet about Burke’s awesome 2009. As Josh has noted, Burke needs to hit A+ and AA on the first try if he wants to stay on the prospect track.
D98 - September 17, 2009
+1
“shampooing each other’s dogs”?
I am awed by the horrible beauty of this phrase.
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
Yowza, I wasn't assuming a win, but
I did expect a decent effort out of Harden. On the plus side, he’s reducing his value if it gets to arbitration.
Conversely, I was really hoping for draft picks and each start he sucks reduces the chances he’ll pull a deal as big as he and his agent probably want that gets the Cubs the picks.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
I should add, this team is playing whack-a-mole with my emotions.
They lose a game or two and I reach peace with my expectations and hopes, they rip off a few wins and create a few what-if scenarios and I suck back in and poke my head out of the hole, then they lay an egg again and I feel clubbed over the head.
If Hendry signs another big ticket RF to hit 5th, he should be forced into a cage match with Matt Millen and Jerry Angelo to discuss Wide Receivers and O-Lineman. Even Millen and Angelo can see Hendry’s inability to identify value from a LH power hitter.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
"Whack-a-mole"...haha
good way to put it.
KaliCub - September 17, 2009
Don't let your expectations get that high
Awhile ago, I reset my Cubs 2009 goal to a winning season, and for an unlikely super-bonus goal, to win those last three games at St. Louis to finish .500 with them, too.
I know this is obvious, but for your long-term survival as a Cubs fan — lower expectations, support the players, and press the management for improvement.
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
So, how many Cubs are playing through injuries that are affecting their performance?
After the Soriano saga, it’s the question you have to ask. Harden’s performance is way down. Bradley’s performance is down. Soto’s performance was down.
And who’s making these decisions? Is Lou telling the guys to gut it out? Is the training staff incompetent? Is Hendry forcing the players out there?
Sure, this is a case based on speculation, but the questions have to be asked. When healthy Rich Harden is a dominating pitcher and Milton Bradley is a dominating hitter. How many Cubs are playing that shouldn’t be?
DGU - September 17, 2009
If Harden were hurt...
… wouldn’t he be bad every start? Instead, he’s been inconsistent.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Really, I haven't gone back to compare, but
other than Harden appearing balanced and not beating up people in the dugout, his starts feel a lot like Z’s.
Either seem to be elite and efficient on pitch count labor on pitch count early which leads to a brutal early inning.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Depends on the hurt.
DGU - September 17, 2009
I think Harden's arm just can't take being in a rotation for very long
It isn’t strong enough, never will be.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
Have to ask
but all teams have this issue.
On Bradley, IMO it’s 95% in his head. If he’d quit worrying about how next he’s gonna be the victim and concentrate on playing, he’d be much better off. Like mentioned before, he’s a lightning rod for controversy.
Soto I truly believe it’s a mix of the weight issue, WBC, pot incident and sophomore slump. One thing for sure IMO on him; it’s not his attitude. I like his attitude and think he’ll return to a better performance level in 2010.
I can’t explain why Harden is better at night and on the road. But he just didn’t have the command. I’m still not sold on him but don’t want to see him cut loose yet. He has 3 more starts.
I think guys are gutting it out. Lou probably pushes too. Can’t say Hendry does also. I also don’t believe the training staff is incompetent. In Sori’s case I believe “he almost always gets what he wants”. Unfortunately that puts him in Slammin’ Sammy territory.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
I'm growing more excited about Soto
And if he can lock down the 5th spot, that solves a lot of problems.
A 1-7 of Dome-Bradley-Lee-Ramirez-Soto-Soriano-Theriot/Baker would look pretty good.
Worf - September 17, 2009
Can a RH hitter lock down the 5th spot?
But I like your lineup.
DGU - September 17, 2009
That's the key question.
I don’t see a lefty bat in that lineup outside of Milton (assuming a RHP) and it doesn’t seem like Lou will give on this point.
In any case, I’m very happy to see Geo having success at the plate after all the guff he’s taken this season.
daver - September 17, 2009
Who cares if Lou will "give"?
Lou doesn’t sign the players. He manages the players that are signed.
Hopefully Hendry will have the good sense to see that Lou’s desires don’t always result in improvement on the field. Give him the best guys you can, and tell him to make due.
AndrewJStone - September 17, 2009
dome and bradley
Rhymenocerous - September 17, 2009
Oh, right.
daver - September 17, 2009
the 'guff'?
I think any criticism is deserved. Soto, until the past few weeks, has been terrible!
elgato - September 17, 2009
Indeed
And his multiple brain cramps last night weren’t so great, either.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
for what it's worth ...
I like Geo — and of the struggling Cubs this year, I think he has the most potential to rebound. But he’s had an extremely disappointing season that’s worthy of criticism.
elgato - September 17, 2009
I like him too, but
He’s done that crap before with the mask and it’s not the first time he’s lacked situational awareness on the field.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
agreed, completely
elgato - September 17, 2009
I've said it 1,000 times before and I'll say it again
Cubs minor league prospects who get to the majors have the amazing ability to have no clue about fundamentals. Can’t bunt, run the bases, or know the rules. From Corey Patterson to Ryan Theriot to Geo they just don’t get it and that comes from piss poor teaching in the minors.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
Theriot seems pretty fundamentally sound to me
But generally, I wish Cubs’ farmhands were taught plate discipline.
elgato - September 17, 2009
Really?
How about his baserunning, poor footwork, inability to execute a tag play properly, lack of bunting skills . . . .
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
Hadn't thought about baserunning
Maybe you’re right.
elgato - September 17, 2009
He gets a pass on the other stuff?
;-)
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
You're 100% correct
And what bugs the piss out of me is that there’s no organizational change likely to fix it.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
*organizational change likely on the horizon
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
If there is an indictment of Hendry, that is it. (besides Miles)
No overall organizational philosophy of teaching of fundamentals.
KaliCub - September 17, 2009
Yes, it's been disappointing.
But, as mentioned, he’s been injured (twice) and had his playing time cut. Now that he’s playing more regularly – low and behold- he’s producing.
daver - September 17, 2009
He hasn't been playing much until the past few weeks.
daver - September 17, 2009
Hell, you could have something like that now if Fox would play for Soriano.
Sure, Bradley is struggling mightily, but the 2-hole is where he’s been best this season.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
Soriano will be here next year
Learn to love it
Worf - September 17, 2009
Oh, I know that.
I was thinking over the next 15 games or so the Cubs could trot out that lineup.
Bill Potter - September 17, 2009
I guess I don't want Soto to lock down the 5th spot.
With the combination of weight and WBC test, I’ve speculated he felt too much pressure. I’d rather see that he’s proven he’s somewhere between 2008 and 2009 and a solid answer for a few years.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Eh, I still think both the weight and WBC factors were overblown.
Geo’s season has been cut apart by two injuries: The shoulder fatigure early on and the oblique pull midway through. Toss in some BABIP troubles and possibly ending up in the doorway of Lou’s doghouse and he’s just had a sort of nonstarter of a season (ha, no pun intended).
By the way, I’m surprised no one here has mentioned Soto’s bizarre error last night.
daver - September 17, 2009
Geo's done that a few times this season
Got away with it about two weeks ago I think, Brenley called him out on it then. That is a habit that Geo needs to drop quicker than his weed one.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
I actually wasn't aware of that rule until last night.
daver - September 17, 2009
And also...
… someone needs to tell him he doesn’t have to tag a runner at the plate when the bases are loaded.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Ron Santo was mad about that.
He was
visiblyaudibly upset with Geo after that play.daver - September 17, 2009
Probably visibly, too.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
There is another weed joke here
but I won’t say it.
Really that is just another wonderful example of how Cubs minor league players are so aware of the rules and fundamentals of baseball. Truly they teach it all down there. /sarcasm
nji232 - September 17, 2009
In his defense
It looked as though he had one foot in the vicinity of the plate when the throw came in, but wanted to make sure he got the out. Not saying he played that perfectly, but when most of the balls you see for put-outs are on timing plays, rather than force plays, you can sometimes have a brainfart.
Corralling the ball with his mask is still inexcusable, though.
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
Good point.
I was listening on the radio so I had no visual to refer to. Of course, ahem, Ron doesn’t have the same excuse.
daver - September 17, 2009
I don't care which spot he locks down, really
as long as he gets back to 2008 levels and helps the Cubs win.
I can see him anywhere between 4th and 7th, inclusive.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
Potty humor.
My husband ran down to the bathroom in the 5th. Judd was doing his best Howdy Dowdy laughing impression and saying some mumbo jumbo about not knowing why Bradley was taken out of the game yet. He said all the guys in there bust out laughing with some shouting “because he’s hitting 250 you moron.” He said it was pretty funny and that he never heard quite an uproar like it in the men’s room before.
katie casey - September 17, 2009
Run In With DeRo
I was on a flight with DeRosa last night. He was heading home to Atlanta to spend an off day with his pregnant wife. He was kind and patient enough to let me pepper him with questions for about 20 minutes as we waited for our plane. He could not have been nicer or more down to earth. Really great guy.
Said he loved his experience in Chicago and was sad to leave. His best friends on the team were Demp and Lilly. He did not seem to care much (at all) for Z. Lazy and stubborn, he said. A great talent, but no work ethic. His tone seemed to suggest that Z was somewhat of a clubhouse cancer.
He shook his head and actually started laughing when I suggested the Cubs could still catch the Cards.
Really wish he were still a Cub. Think we’d be in a different place.
STLCubby - September 17, 2009 via mobile
I'd have laughed at you too
and then spat in your coffee
Worf - September 17, 2009
Wow, interesting perspective on Z.
Let’s hope Carlos doesn’t read this or DeRo could be taking one in the ribcage during the St. Louis series (uh, assuming Z pitches).
daver - September 17, 2009
Z would pitch Sunday
he went Tue so Wed, Thur, Fri & Sat are the other 4 starters.
Should be interesting if Z were to find out about this. But I have a feeling DeRo wouldn’t be the 1st nor would he be the last ex-teammate to intimate Z is lazy and/or stubborn.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
This doesn't necessarily prove anything
But when the ancedotal evidence was there a long time ago, and a handful of posters noted it, we got ripped on. (I’m not saying Dave did it.)
My point isn’t to say, “I told you so”, it’s a shout out to those who blindly defend a Cub just because he’s a Cub and consider every criticism a personal attack — sometimes emprical evidence is indeed correct. Zambrano most likely is: very talented, very passionate and VERY immature.
Shanghai Badger - September 17, 2009
7 games back instead of 9?
Felonius_Monk - September 17, 2009
I was thinking maybe 5.5
I believe you underestimate his impact on last year’s success (regular season, of course).
STLCubby - September 17, 2009 via mobile
For those of you that didn't watch the game on TV...
…what the hell was wrong with Richard Dreyfuss?! Seriously, is there something wrong with that guy? Was he drunk?
cubswynn - September 17, 2009
Maybe he's not healthy.
I was surprised to learn he’s not quite 62. Thought he was much older.
Al Yellon - September 17, 2009
Great question. Sadly, I thought he was trying to be funny. Failing, but trying.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Poor Len.
That must have been really awkward. What was the “America today” rant about? I don’t think he was joking there.
cubswynn - September 17, 2009
Guess so. Didn't see Len ask Dreyfus to stay around and sign his
“A” list autograph ball like he did fawning over Drew Barrymore the night before.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Dreyfus didn't give Len a chubby like Drew did...
Zeke - September 17, 2009
Can rip Len on the Drew Barrymore part
for whatever reason, she’s always been in my top-10 celebrity/famous women.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
Len definitely loved
Drew. I like her and thought she did a nice job.
sue369 - September 17, 2009
Harden
Prior to the season I was in the camp of picking up his option and then dealing him. At this point I think they have to let him walk. Offer him arbitration… someone will offer him a long term deal. I think that the major step that the Cubs took in 2007 and 2008 revolved around having starting pitchers who went to the mound every fifth day and threw with some degree of consistency. One of the things that I had hoped that we had learned from the Wood and Prior era was that when these guys aren’t going to the mound or are starting but lasting 3 or 4 innings that it has a major trickle-down on the rest of the team. Harden is out of that book and we say this in a year where he remained relatively healthy.
dmlichte - September 17, 2009
Prior and Wood usually lasted longer than four innings
It was a matter of them not being able to pitch at all for a lot of the time.
elgato - September 17, 2009
When Woody was out early
I’ve seen him at triple digits in the 4th inning a couple times.
Last night Harden just didn’t seem to have it. I’d rather see what he can do his last 3 starts before writing him off for 2010.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
Sure ...
But that’s not uncommon for strikeout pitchers. I guess I’m saying that if the Cubs learned lessons from Wood and Prior, those lessons were about durability.
elgato - September 17, 2009
But their cases in 2003 were abuse
IIRC Wood and Prior not only threw the most pitches in all of MLB that season, they also had the highest number of pitches per inning.
Granted some of that came from the 12 playoff games but most came from leaving them in too long later in the game. Case in point Prior at 120-ish pitches in NLCS game 2 with the Cubs up by a touchdown and a field goal.
blackhawk24 - September 17, 2009
I truly don't think that anyone will offer him more than a one-year deal witha vesting option
or a two-year deal with a boatload of incentives.
davidalanu - September 17, 2009
Hendry gave Miles a two-year deal...
just sayin’
santoswoodenlegs - September 17, 2009
And Harden's probably a better hitter.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Offering arbitration to Harden becomes a greater risk with each start
How could another team watch him pitch and want him on their team? He can’t pitch effectively more than 20 starts a season- and that is pushing it- and forces you to move around rotation guys so he can get more rest.
I’ll bet he accepts arbitration if offered.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
I'll bet he doesn't.
The pitching market is slim. He’ll get a deal longer than 1 year. And if he accepts, we’ve got a bargain.
DGU - September 17, 2009
I hope you're right
I just don’t see many teams shelling out money after seeing Harden’s inability to pitch many innings before breaking down.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
But Harden also posted a 2.00 ERA the season before.
People will always pay for that kind of upside. On a one-year deal, the Cubs should be glad to.
DGU - September 17, 2009
I agree, but I think any team that takes Harden
has to be prepared to but him on the DL a ton. More than the Cubs have. It seems like after about 10 starts or so in a row his arm dies.
I understand the value you get from having Harden give you 125 IP a season, and the Cubs are one of the teams with enough pitching to get away with it. How many other teams (granted I’m not taking into account stupid teams giving out stupid contracts which makes my whole argument pointless) can afford to have a starting pitcher who can only pitch 60% of the time?
nji232 - September 17, 2009
And this year is only good+ in half of those starts.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
DGU is right in saying he will get a nice deal somewhere
Teams are stupid, especially when it comes to talented starting pitchers. I just don’t understand why any team would be willing to give him a two year deal.
nji232 - September 17, 2009
Because at least 2 years will be needed to sign him. If he's only looking at
a 1 year deal, he may consider just accepting arb and bothering to change teams.
N Oakley - September 17, 2009
Was he really good in only half of his starts?
That seems extreme.
daver - September 17, 2009
Maybe a little hyperbole.
He started 26 games, the team is 13-13 in those starts and he left in or before the 5th in 11 games. Of those 11, the team came back to win 4. Start put team in deficit as team scored 2 or more runs in all 11 of those games.
13 games of 6+ IP, less than 2 ER is half.
Team is 13-13 when he starts, era of 4.09, whip of 1.34.
Harden can be great, he hasn’t been consistently this year.
N Oakley - September 18, 2009
And if the economics are so bad
That he actually falls back to arbitration, it seems like the arbitrators should not be handing out huge awards, either.
It would be easy enough to talk down his value in an arbitration case — I know that the Cubs don’t like to do this, and it can be counter-productive, but I am just saying that I think that the worst-case scenario here (you don’t really want him that much, but he accepts arbitration) is not too bad.
vonde6 - September 17, 2009
Can't offer him a contract in "Canadian Dollars"???
santoswoodenlegs - September 17, 2009
You can try but you won't save much
How about the Zimbabwean currency ? I think inflation is like a million percent ( seriously) so offer him 20 million and
by the time the bill is due it is $20/
Doggie Stalker - September 17, 2009
I'd risk it, if he takes it we're only on the hook for one year.
Itchy - September 17, 2009
Hello new info
Harden shut down for remainder of season
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
Also, Preview thread is up
Clutch16 - September 17, 2009
I like this one. Where has it been all season?
Zeke - September 17, 2009
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