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It's Theo Epstein Compensation Time! (Probably. Maybe.)

Theo Epstein, the new President of Baseball Operations for the Chicago Cubs, walks across the outfield following a press conference at Wrigley Field in Chicago, Illinois.  (Photo by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)

Jonathan Daniel - Getty Images

Theo Epstein, the new President of Baseball Operations for the Chicago Cubs, walks across the outfield following a press conference at Wrigley Field in Chicago, Illinois. (Photo by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)

So says Phil Rogers in the Tribune (and please consider the source):

Next week looks like a big one for the commissioner's office. Look for both the Ryan Braun and Theo Epstein rulings to come down, although only the Epstein compensation matter is under Bud Selig's control. Braun's appeal of a steroid suspension is in the hands of an arbitrator.

Setting aside the Braun issue for a moment, what could the compensation be? We have discussed this here many times. But I wanted to add to this post some thoughts from Boston. After the jump, an article from a Red Sox writer's point of view.

Star-divide

Let me say that much of the time, I think Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe does a pretty good job covering his team and baseball. In this column posted today, Cafardo says it's still uncertain when the compensation issue will be decided; given what's happened in this situation so far, it's certainly possible that Cafardo is right and Rogers is wrong.

But then he starts naming names. He mentions the Red Sox' early reported demand for Matt Garza or Starlin Castro and says "of course, they were rebuffed."

But check this out, when Cafardo starts talking about what would be "fair":

“Significant" would be someone such as Travis Wood, who was just acquired by the Cubs in the Sean Marshall deal with the Reds. He is a 25-year-old lefthander the Sox could use as a fifth starter. But would the Commissioner’s Office take a player Epstein and Jed Hoyer just traded for and hand him over to the Sox?

Nope. Don't see Selig doing that. Cafardo then mentions Jeff Baker and Reed Johnson -- I suppose I could see that; the Cubs would likely be more willing to let Baker go. On the other hand, it never seemed as if this would result in a major league player heading east.

Cafardo goes on to mention a laundry list of players:

Then there is a prospect such as first baseman Anthony Rizzo, who was traded from Boston to San Diego in the Adrian Gonzalez deal and then dealt to the Cubs this offseason after a poor major league debut with the Padres. While there isn’t a need in Boston for Rizzo now, maybe you get him for the future.

The Cubs also have third baseman Josh Vitters, a high draft choice with unfulfilled promise, shortstop Junior Lake, and outfielder Matthew Szczur. They have righty Chris Carpenter, who looks like he’ll make the Cubs bullpen, and lefty James Russell. There’s veteran righty Jeff Samardzija, whose arm has always intrigued teams out of the pen.

Other top prospects include outfielders Brett Jackson and Reggie Golden, shortstop Javier Baez, righties Trey McNutt, Zach Cates, and Dillon Maples, and catcher Wellington Castro.

Rizzo? Um, no. There's no way the commissioner's office would do that. I can't see any of the higher-level prospects like Szczur or Jackson or recent draft picks like Baez or Maples being chosen. Looks like Cafardo just went down recent draft lists and wrote down some names he had heard of, or people who got big bonuses.

Oh, and it's "Welington Castillo", not "Wellington Castro."

As I have written before, there is one precedent for something like this, and it also involved the Cubs. When Andy MacPhail came from Minnesota (as GM) to the Cubs (as team president), the Cubs sent pitching prospect Hector Trinidad to the Twins. At the time, Trinidad was 20 years old and had just finished a decent, but not outstanding, season for Daytona. He was considered to be a major league possibility, though not a top prospect.

He never made the major leagues.

Who would be comparable pitchers from last year's Daytona roster?

Aaron Kurcz might be the guy -- made 32 appearances (12 starts) for Daytona last year and posted a 3.28 ERA and 1.22 WHIP. He's 21. Nick Struck is 22, and had 16 good starts (combined 2.96 ERA and 1.40 WHIP) for Daytona and Tennessee before being promoted (probably before he was ready) to Iowa, where he posted a 5.20 ERA in 12 appearances (11 starts). Maybe even Dae-Eun Rhee, who is 22 and had a 4.02 ERA and 1.36 WHIP for Daytona and who has been given a NRI to Cubs spring training this year.

One of those guys should do it -- maybe two of them, if you think Theo is worth more than MacPhail. To me, that's reasonable compensation, using the MacPhail case as a precedent. A youngish righthander who performed well at the lower levels of the organization and could make the Red Sox in a couple of years if everything goes right.

A major league player? Sorry, Nick Cafardo. Sorry, Boston. That's a pipedream.

0 recs  |  97 comments

Comments

If the compensation is Reed Johnson...

This is me:

I agree we could lose ReJo

That being said (and based solely on gut feeling rather than stats), I’ve always felt Reed was a decent player. Seldom, if ever, would I question his effort. One way or another, Reeds time with Cubs wouldn’t be indefinate either way…so if they’ll take Reed…ok.

IFO, would view the loss of Reed like this, altho I (foolishly) thought the same with Mark DeRosa...

David Sappelt approves of this response!
David Sappelt?

(G’morning ClarkFan). I don’t know him… or are you joshin’ me? :]

OK "Dave" Sappelt

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=sappel001dav

You know, the 4th OF candidate who was part of the Marshall/Wood deal? Tony Campana would probably approve of dealing RJ, too.

Ahhh... thank you

I haven’t done my due diligence in last 4-6 weeks. We’re building a new facility…has kept me buuuusy!!! :]

Reds player?

It’s too early for my mind to get the link in this…

Cubs now - came over with Wood for Marshall

That could shake out as a fine trade for the Cubs.

And Torreyes.

I think the trade was very very impressive for the Cubs.

The Reds site was all

“I miss Jim Hendry already”.

Since Soriano...

a lot of sites shoulld be that way! (leaves site before becoming too negative) /paging TJ11…paging TJ11…/

I think

it’s going to be Junior Lake, and I’m ok with that.

I'd probably be OK with that, too.

Lake has talent, but he’s no sure thing.

Lake or Vitters (both ;played in AZ) plus Jay Jackson or Struck and $$$

1st rounder, or 21 yr old and possible usable pitcher

You're saying the compensation...

…is going to be TWO players plus money?

^this^

Just because we’ve seen sooo many examples over the years of “talent/potential = pooh-pooh”. As I don’t follow minors that closely, I’d rather lose the completely unknown than Johnson.

You can not be serious

Give up an old, part-time, injury-prone outfielder with absolutely ZERO chance of being involved in any future Cubs team that contends or a young shortstop prospect that has substantial potential to contribute on the major league roster in a few years? I give up Reed Johnson every single day, and since today is Sunday, I’ll do it twice.

The hilarious thing is that anyone, including Nick Cafardo, would even hypothesize in passing that the Red Sox would have any interest at all in Reed Johnson as compensation.

Indeed I

am serious. Only b/c I’ve seen too many Cory Pattersons, Felix Pies, etc. in recent memory. I sadly feel that the Cubs (until the Theo trade), are unable to accurately evaluate talent. Ergo, Lake may just be another guy (Bobby Scales) “who never made good on his potential”.

The Patterson/Pie stream of failure speaks to weakness in the Cubs' player development

That is one of the big things the new FO is likely to change.

Agreed. I still have

thatt “bad taste in my mouth” from (almost) any pre-Theo acquisition. Am I likely to be wrong on some? Yes. But I’ll take that chance. How long has Josh Vitters been “almost ready” to join the majors? I think in the coming year, I’d rather see a vets presence than “kids mentoring kids”. We seem to all be in agreement that 2012 Cubs are a sub-80 W team…niether player involved will change that. In any case, I’d be ok losing Reed, as I stated above, but don’t have time today to attack/defend the Cubs developing players. Maybe JJosh will chime in on this?

Not Josh, but...

The thing with losing Reed is, we’ve got an abundance of OFers ready to go. Sappelt could take over the 4/5th outfield spot immediately, and we wouldn’t really lose any production and it could save some money.

It would also make it easier to bring Brett Jackson up when he is ready to go, because you could just option Sappelt instead of needing to move a major league outfielder.

That could be a multi-step process if Jackson sticks

1) Call up Jackson, option Sappelt
2) Move Byrd at/near deadline
3) Call Sappelt back up

Sure, but it's one less move needed to get Jackson up.

If he sticks, there are a lot of options moving forward.

bdlugz

If you’re going to insist on making sense… I fear I’ll havta flag your comments! :] I guess we’re prolly all (myself included) making much to do about nothing.

That's fine

But Reed is not a part of anything. This team is going to suck. They are most likely going to suck next year too. We can find a Reed Johnson on the waiver wire after Spring Training cuts (which is how we got him in the first place), so losing him is no loss. Losing a prospect of any level or talent is giving away a possibility (however small) that the player could be useful in the future.

But that is exactly the reason why the Red Sox would not want him. They can sign their own Reed Johnson and also get a prospect from us. That and the point mentioned below about how Reed is a current FA signing, but the same can be said for Baker or DeWitt as potential compensation. Cafardo is talking out of his butt on that.

"Cafardo is talking out of his butt on that."

Agreed. That’s why I won’t worry too much on this issue… (any chance we could sneak R-Sox Bobby Scales???… guy has GREAT POTENTIAL ) :]

Seems to me...

… that Cafardo was talking out of his butt on most of it. All he did was name a bunch of major league and minor league players. Any one of us could have done that.

^enters the voice of reason...^

Morning Al.

Well since

as a SS prospect Junior Lake projects out as an eventual pitcher, I think he’s a fine guy to let go and have Boston take the chance on his potential.

I'm getting tired of this and really

waiting for Bud to screw this whole thing up. Who has more influence in this thing? Not the Cubs.

I agree. I get a pain in the pit of my stomach when it's time for Bud to actually act like a commissioner.

At least he has the tattoo on his arm to remind him: WDJWMTD – What Does Jerry Want Me To Do?

I am also. I am beginning to worry that this ruling

will turn out to be more about Bud’s ego than anything else. This is irritating.

Bud?

Has an ego?

Who knew?

hopefully Bud is packing

It will not be Reed Johnson

He was signed as a free agent. I don’t see the Union allowing a veteran who just signed a deal to be traded. I imagine Blake Dewitt is possible if he clears waivers.

DeWitt is possible.

As is Baker, presuming the Red Sox’ interest as reported by Cafardo is genuine.

It will be DeWitt, Baker, Lake, or Cardenas

since the Red Sox infield is very thin I feel that is what they will push for, they have Mike Aviles as their shortstop!

I really hope it isn't Rhee.

I think he could turn into a very good pitcher, and is a big sleeper pick for me for 2012.

I agree

Completely

Agreed.

And Kurcz is my favorite relief prospect over guys like Zych, Carpenter, and Dolis, so I’m crossing my fingers on him. He certainly is a possibility though.

yeah

I would not want to give up kurcz either

The lawyer in me.....

….. wishes this had been litigated in court, and here’s why- once the Red Sox gave Epstein permission to talk to the Cubs, they knew there was a good chance he was going to receive and accept an offer. At that point, they ceded their exclusive rights to him. They could have avoided al of this and just said no. Unless I haven’t been keeping up enough on this, I’m not aware that Epstein’s move was made conditional on the teams reaching an agreement on compensation, and failing that, the Commissioner would step in.

The only reason that...

….this is still an issue is the prickly side of Larry Lucchino. His ego won’t accept what the Cubs are offering and in his dreams he thinks that Bud will side with him. If the McPhail compensation was a Class A pitcher I would bet the best that Boston could hope for would be a player at the AA level or maybe 2 players at A ball.

i'll drive junior lake to the airport
I'll chip in for gas...
Paging elgato...
LOL!

(stop. it. stop.it.now.) :]

I've heard it's tricky to drive to the DR... you may want to wait a few weeks until he's stateside.
my car doubles as a submarine
Is this yours?

No...no...no!

THAT’S more along the lines of The Dells Ducks! :]

like this?

The convertible submarines are especially rare.
The coupes really work better...

Is that a DeLorean???
Lotus - later vintage than the one in my avatar
Speaking of Phil Rogers columns.........

………did anyone read his comments today regarding Jason Heyward of the Braves? Seems he’s been working out this winter with a number of coaches, as well as with teammate Chipper Jones.

According to the article, Jones said Heyward is consistently “going down the line”, which, according to Rogers means, “driving the ball up the middle”.

Someone help me here………if going down the line actually means going up the middle, how do we describe a player who is hitting the ball down the line?

You're talking about a Phil Rogers column.

Which makes normal brains do this:

Honestly, Al, how does he get away with this crap?

That’s a heinous mistake, and if you know anything about Jason Heyward’s game, he was dominant in 2010 beating the Ted Williams shift. That has nothing to do with going up the middle of the field.

And he gets HOF votes too?!?!

I read Uncle Phil's column this morning, too...

…and wondered about that as well. I take about 1% of what he says seriously, anyway, but it didn’t ring true to me either..

It's utterly embarrassing......

……..that he’s the “dean” of Chicago baseball reporters.

How many years did McPhail have on contract.

The cubs basicaly should have compensated Boston for 1 year because that was all that was on Theo’s contract

IIRC, it was the same.

One year left on MacPhail’s deal when he came to the Cubs.

Send them Soriano for nothing and call it good (no cash exchanged).......
So, Bud's gonna settle this! LOL. I bet one of the teams appeals his ruling... it'll take forever.
The question is

… who do they appeal to?

If it takes until April

they can have Gonzalez or Flaherty with no strings

I to fear Bud will screw this up.

I fear a top 10 talent will go and will be unjust. JR. Lake, or Vitters I have no problem with. Please no picks from last year or Szczur.
Just get the crap done already.

Can't be last years's guys.

They can’t be traded until 12 months after signing.

Right.

Which is why Cafardo was way off base mentioning Cruz, Cates and Maples.

Cruz?
Sorry

… I meant Baez.

Ah ok.
Yeah.

Looks like I made the same mistake Cafardo did. :)

Thank you.

Did not know that.

I am definitely not 100% positive

but I thought someone (bdlugz?) had posted a link showing that with the new baseball CBA, that time frame had been shortened to 6 months.

I did read that, and do remember saying something here, but I'm not 100% sure it's accurate.

I still haven’t found anything with definite claims to that. It’s Bud Selig though, so anything is possible here.

I agree that it's long overdue

Lets be honest…unless Bud gives em Castro, a SP or a top prospect, we likely won’t be discussing this by mid-season. just.do.it.

Sure we will. If they do well.
Ah...maybe your right

Or, it could be, like we “discuss” Fuld, Theriot, Fontenot, Pie, Patterson, etc…

Oh...

Fuke, A. Miles, Bradley…etc. I guess my point is it’ll likely prove to be NBD

quiet today...later all

any word on the Hoyer compensation?
IDR...

We do owe compensation? I rememder we had to stop "pillaging thier FO… Hmmm…maybe you’re right

Yes, the Cubs do owe compensation for Hoyer.

That hasn’t been decided either. Googling around, I find there’s been nothing new on this since November.

so SD is in no hurry i take it
Doesn't appear that way.
LOL

Could help but laugh at this line:

One of those guys should do it — maybe two of them, if you think Theo is worth more than MacPhail.

I can’t wait til this is over and am not expecting much. But Nick Cafardo (one of the worst Boston baseball reporters) is much more the loop than you. He doesn’t just make things up.

This raises an interesting Zen question about Nick Cafardo

If someone is standing on the outside of a loop, how can they be more in the loop than anyone else? But I get big lulz at the idea Nick Cafardo has an in at the Commissioner’s Office. He probably calls Bud at home and is on his Christmas card list too.

Someone needs to put together a

Compensation Flowchart.

Just saying.

Well, it looks like Theo and Ben submitted their suggestions in writing to good old Bud.

Looks like this might actually be done this week. Shocking.

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