SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting

Bleed Cubbie Blue

Thoughts On Gerardo Concepcion: Trust The Scouts

Hey, everyone. It's your always-absent "statistical editor." I'm going to try to be around more often, and thought this would be a good reason to jump back into the BCB-seas. I'm re-starting things with this Fan Post on the Cubs recent signing of Gerardo Concepcion, who was the rookie of the year in the Cuban National Series. Nice, right?

For those that don't know/remember me (I don't blame you), I come at things from a statistical angle. So the first place I tend to look are the numbers. And here are Concepcion's (h/t to yankeeanalysts for the translations):

Age W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB SO H/9 BB/9 SO/9 FIP
18 10 3 3.36 21 16 101.2 103 42 38 6 43 53 9.1 3.8 4.7 4.75

Yuck. Read on to find out why these numbers seem terrible to me, and to find out why I still like this signing, despite the numerical warning signs.

Star-divide

First, a caveat. The issue with evaluating players from Cuba - in particular for basement-dwelling bloggers such as myself - is that the projecting players MLB performance based on their Cuban stats is difficult. Why? Well, the sample size is small. In general, when you're evaluating something in science you want as many data points as possible, and the more data you have the better your ability to accurately use that data to build predictive models. For example, we have much more certainty on how Matt Garza will perform this year than we do on how the recently-departed Andrew Cashner will perform this year. Why is that? It's because we've seen a lot more of Matt Garza at the MLB level. In other words, we have more data.

Now, apply this principle to prospects coming from various backgrounds (high school, college, minors, other countries). We are more certain of projections of future performance for minor league players than anything else, because just about every single player in MLB serves as a data point with which we can base our expectations for the current minor league players. In other words, we have lots of data to back up projections of minor league players. But we have fewer data on college players, and even less so on players coming from foreign professional leagues. We have some of the worst data on players from Cuba. What this means is the projections based on statistics have a particularly high degree of uncertainty.

Faced with this uncertainty, what should one do? I'd recommend three things. First is to think about the context of the projection, and dive deeper into the stats to see if you can unearth an explanation of the "why" behind a player's good/bad numbers. Then, use your brain and see if the numbers have an explanation. Finally, ask the scouts what they think.

Let's start with the numbers. Concepcion's ERA is nice, and the W-L stellar. But let's dive deeper, as I suggest above. Moving from ERA to FIP** goes in the correct direction here, as it can help figure out if a pitcher did well because of "luck." And Concepcion's FIP was very high, suggesting his low ERA may have been luck-induced and that he shouldn't expect to post such a low ERA again. But we can do better than that. Why was Concepcion's FIP high?

Let's break down that high FIP in the context of the Cuban league. From what I can gather, the "story" on the talent level in Cuba is that it's roughly A-ish in talent/competition level, but it has a few studs playing in the primes of their careers. So if Concepcion had a high strikeout rate but his FIP were high because of a high HR rate, I'd give him a pass as I could chalk that high HR rate up to getting dinged by a few legit stars in their primes. But... that's not the issue here. The issue here is his strikeout rate is low. Aaaand that's a problem. If you're not striking guys out a lot, you're not dominating your opponents. And any player that's playing at a level of competition that is A-ish (overall) should dominate their competition if they expect to get to the big leagues in the next couple of years. In other words, the issue with Concepcion isn't that he's getting hit by the "Cuban league stars." The issue is that he's not striking out the bottom of lineups in the Cuban league. At least not often enough.

So we've taken a look at his stats, and used our brains to give them context. What about the scouts? They At least an agent (thanks for the catch, DartmouthCubsFan) seems to love this guy:

"I would not throw him into the major leagues yet," agent Jaime Torres said. "While I think he can make it really fast, he is only 19. But this kid has good stuff, a great makeup and he's extremely intelligent."

OK, how about an actual scout? Kevin Goldstein was asked over Twitter where he'd rank Concepcion on the list of Cubs prospects, and he said 6th. Based on his November ranking of Cubs prospects, that would make Concepcion the Cubs' best pitching prospect. The Cubs don't exactly have the most stacked stable of minor league arms, but that's still high praise.

The short story is this: there isn't any good reason to expect anything out of Concepcion based on his numbers. But this is an extreme case where there are very good reasons to trust the analysis of scouts over numbers. (I bet there are people here that thought I'd never say those words). So on this one, I'm going to trust the scouts. And even if they're wrong (and my statistical intuition is right), the Cubs aren't spending a lot of future money on this contract. (Yes, I said "future money." I'll explain that later.) So I'm happy, even though the numbers are telling me to be apathetic (at best).

** - For those that aren't familiar with FIP - Fielding Independent Pitching - it's a number based solely on the things that don't usually involve fielders and that the pitcher has the most control over: strikeouts, walks, and home runs. It therefore limits the luck from having lots of "Texas League singles" or hard liners right to the second baseman. Because it's scaled to ERA, the difference between those two numbers is often attributed to luck: high FIP and low ERA is often taken as a sign for good luck, and not as good of a performance as the player's ERA would indicate, and vice versa.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

2 recs  |  131 comments

Comments

I also meant to post this last night, but SBN crashed...

I’m off to work, and won’t be around too much but will answer questions as well as possible.

A question...
I’d give him a pass as I could chalk that high HR rate up to getting dinged by a few legit stars in their primes. But… that’s not the issue here. The issue here is his strikeout rate is low. Aaaand that’s a problem. If you’re not striking guys out a lot, you’re not dominating your opponents.

Given his fastball in the low 90’s and range of pitches, he sounds like more of a finesse pitcher than a hard-thrower, and based on this, I’m guessing he’s getting his outs in ways other than K’s. Is a low strikeout rate necessarily that big of an issue?

First post here, but yes it does matter

Without strikeouts, he’ll have to rely on a very low BABIP that may not be sustainable at higher levels of competition. To have success at the ML level (anything higher than a #5 starter) with a K rate that low, he’ll have to pitch with an unbelievable groundball rate with excellent infield defense in addition to cutting down on the walks to form a respectable K/BB rate. Go back and look at other finesse pitcher’s throughout their careers (even Tom Glavine averaged 7 K/9 throughout the minors).

However, he is only 19 and there is the possibility that as he gets stronger, his stuff will improve along with his command (and his already advanced approach to pitching) to make him a mid-rotation starter.

There are exceptions to those rules, however.

Look at a guy like Jair Jurrjens. He strikes out just over 6 per 9 innings with a walk rate of just over 3 per 9 innings. He only has a 43% GB rate and still holds a career ERA of 3.40, including 2 years below 3.00.

At the end of the day, worrying about the K rate of an 18 year old in the equivalent of A ball is quite pointless. He has, by all accounts, some very good stuff and is an intelligent pitcher. He still has a while to refine his pitches, work on the control of his breaking stuff, and get a better feel for pitching.

I’m a huge stats person, however people that run stats like this also need to realize there are times to step back and look at more than just what the numbers say. Sometimes they do not give a good indication of what we should expect.

"At the end of the day, worrying about the K rate of an 18 year old in the equivalent of A ball is quite pointless"

No it’s not. If he can’t strike anybody out at this level, he certainly won’t when hitters are much more talented at the ML level. I agree with there being exceptions to the rule and by all accounts he has the aptitude for it, but those are generally guys who are command heavy pitchers and can get lots of groundballs (which, by the way, Jurrjens averaged over 7 K/9 in the minors).

Greg Maddux disagrees

and I will take his word over you

He wanted hitters to put the ball in play, and used location, location, and location to get the ball hit how he wanted more often than not. He also kept his walks down, which is something I am more interested in. Strike Outs, like Home Runs, can be over rated too often when trying to judge the talent of a player, while dismissing too many other stat points.

I find it hilarious

when people state with certainty that a 17 year old LHP has already indicated his maximum upside. If people thought that Tim Lincecum was going to be this good (when he was off his 17 YO season), he might have been drafted in the first, say, 40 Rounds.

Yeah, Lincy’s a RHP, but you get the picture.

No one has said he's reached his max upside...

and certainly no one has said it with credibility.

We’re forecasting here, and we’re doing it with a lot of admitted uncertainty. We’re not saying “this is the best he’ll ever be, and it’s not good enough.” What we’re saying is “based on his past statistics, it looks like the best he’ll ever be won’t be good enough.” Oh, and there’s a clear admission that the statement carries lots of uncertainty.

No.

But a number of people have declared his upside as “3” or “4”. That would be “indicating his maximum upside”.

There is a difference between “I see him as a 3” and “His upside is a 3”.

Yes, but when people say "his upside is a 3 or 4"

they’re projecting. And projections are inaccurate, especially when you’re projecting far-off events.

this signing seems more and more

like it needed to be done based off instinct and less on the numbers available

You guys are getting into heated debates over a teenage prospect.

Who cares? You should be more excited that the Cubs are investing in better prospects, and probably aren’t done yet with Cuban signings this winter.

The fact that this kid automatically moves toward the top of all of our pitching prospects is a major problem. Our system sucks.

Moving to the top of our pitching prospects in an opinion

If people think he’s already our top pitching prospect then they must be pretty high on him because McNutt and Maples are still highly regarded pitching prospects and have several others that have the potential to be.

The point isn't that K's are "all-important"

the point is that, in this case, his K rate is very very low for a player that is expected to make a MLB roster. That’s not to say he can’t make the MLB roster. It’s just to say that he has the statistical profile of someone that has a very small chance of making it.

In this case, there are reasons to doubt the numbers. But if the numbers are the only thing you’re looking at, your expectations in this case should be low, or perhaps non-existent.

i understand that, it does make sense

(honest question, not trying to stir the pot) but doesnt the thought that unless a player can strike out “x” amount of players of hit “x” home runs he cannot be a MLBer seem to be a little bit of tunnel vision?

Maddux averaged less than 6Ks/9IP in the minors

can’t see why the Cubs kept him around

Again, a mischaracterization of the argument.

But I’ll play along for a moment.

If we were to use Maddux as an example, we’d take his 1985 season, when he threw 186 innings at Peoria (A) as an 18 year old. He posted an ERA of 3.19 and an FIP of 3.22.

In other words, in Maddux’s case you’d conclude he had lots of success at the low minors, despite pitching at a young age, and you couldn’t attribute that to luck. He struck out 6/9 IP and only walked 2.5.

Basically, if I applied this sort of analysis to Maddux at a similar point in his career I’d be optimistic.

have you always been sarcasm impaired?
Yes. I bought one of these, but forgot to charge it:

re-read shawn's comments

they dont say he CANT have success

they say its a SMALL PROBABILITY.

A guy like Maddux, who keeps getting cited, represents the small probability.

Tunnel vision would suggest that you’re ignoring ANY likelihood that the player can be successful without the ability to strike players out. I dont think that fits the sentiment Shawn is putting out there

i understand and was just asking

due to how it seems that i keep seeing k rate as if it was the holy grail of how to judge.

its one of the more predictive stats for pitchers

again, doesn’t mean its the holy grail… but since it has stronger predictive power than most other metrics, it naturally gets more attention

It's not *the* holy grail...

it’s just the particular flaw in Concepcion’s numbers that give me pause.

Didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

The low K number should give one pause

it is not the be all and end all, but it usually maters

What DCF said.

It’s not that it’s impossible, just unlikely. Those are two very different things.

Agree 100% with this
Maddux also had pinpoint command and averaged a 3:1 K/BB ratio

Concepcion doesn’t even have a 2:1 K/BB ratio. I won’t get into all of it, because I see you guys have discussed this at length, but without strikeouts, you must rely on few BBs and a low BABIP, meaning that you must be lucky, at least to some extent.

There are certainly exceptions to this rule, but they are few and far between.

BTW, Goldstein and Jason Parks (another writer/scout from BP) called this signing “stupid.” He also notes that his upside is a back-of the rotation starter. Not saying he’s right, but that is how the industry views him. The best thing he has going for him is his age and that he can still grow and improve his stuff to improve that upside.

That isn't how "the industry" views Concepcion.

That is how TWO people in the industry view Concepcion. There are plenty of other reports that say his upside is #2/3. The fact remains, until we see what he can do over here, our information is so few and far between and unreliable that we simply have to trust the legwork that Theo and Jed did on this.

It may turn out to be a bust, but calling it stupid already is, in my opinion, stupid.

Impressive first comment!

I hope you can contribute more often in the future…

Thanks!

I appreciate that!

minor nitpick

is Jaime Torres a scout? The quote cites him as an agent

Jaime Torres is an agent.

Same agent who represented Yasiel Balaguert and Carlos Martinez, the Cuban players we signed in December. He also brought Yuniesky Betancourt, Alexei Ramirez, Jose Contreras, and Ramon Castro to MLB.

Good point, I'll fix that.
Thanks, Shawn.

As always, you write in a way that even a non-number person like me can understand and find interesting.

Thanks!

Posting here more often is a new year’s resolution put off by an insane amount of work so far in 2012.

agreed

he does a great job breaking it down

Welcome back Shawn

I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on FIP and other pitching metrics.

The efforts to view pitching statistics through a fielding independent lens has unquestionable merit. That said, there is something about completely stripping away fielding that doesn’t sit well with me. My gut tells me that a pitcher that yields lots of ground balls is likely to be more successful than one who gives up fly balls, and both will be more successful than one who gives up lots of line drives.

thoughts?

Well, this is the hope:
a pitcher that yields lots of ground balls is likely to be more successful than one who gives up fly balls, and both will be more successful than one who gives up lots of line drives.

You got it. If he is giving up lots and lots of ground balls, or more generally lots of “weak contact” that would explain the low runs allowed rate, despite the low K rate. And that would be good. But the tendency in pitchers is not to repeat an FIP-ERA discrepancy from year to year. Usually, that discrepancy will disappear in the next year. And the non-repeatability of this “potential skill” is one reason we attribute it to “luck.” There are exceptions, but they’re just that. So it’s not as much that it’s impossible that he fits into this category, it’s just unlikely. Now if he posts similar stats in the minors, I’ll start to wonder.

What about his age, relative to the league he played in?

Doesn’t that factor into the evaluation?

Well this is the reason its difficult to evaluate Cuban players on numbers alone.

The league is supposedly at a level approximately on par with A ball. BUT, lots of those guys are older and more experienced than your typical A-ball player in the US. AND, there’s no AA, AAA, or MLB-level league for these guys. They – more than anyone else in baseball – are literally trapped in a league at about A-ball talent level. So… although we can translate, there’s uncertainty there because of these issues.

Plus, even if it IS an average of A ball...

He was 17/18 last year, so if we had a 17/18 year old playing in Peoria putting up these numbers, we’d be very excited. I’m not overly concerned about his K% right now. He has a solid FB in the low 90s (once again, only 17-18) and an above average curve and a decent change.

That's a fair point.

How he performs this season will tell us a lot more than anything he’s done so far. I’m looking forward to seeing him… hopefully in Peoria?

I would expect the Cubs to be pretty aggressive with him, given the contract.

Some sites have even claimed that he may see some time in the bullpen as early as this year. I don’t see that as even a remote possibility, but the fact that some experts see it as one should be pretty telling.

Peoria piggybacks.

He might ‘relieve for four’ on occasion.

let's say the scouts are right (though the quote you gave was from HIS AGENT)

and he’s a decent young pitcher with some upside, it doesn’t change the fact that you could get a similar skill set in the fifth or sixth round of the draft and sign them for 200,000. 7 million MLB contract? nonsensical. unless this guy is really best buds with soler and cespedes.

you say to take into consideration (paraphrasing)

that his HR rate could be due to facing some legit stars in their prime. wouldn’t that be worse then in MLB with a larger number of legit stars in their prime?

also, regarding strike out rate, how important is that compared to say GO/FO%? In the opinion of some isnt that rate more important than how many strike outs he has, especially if pitching at Wrigley?

Tim, I'll reply to this later...

You raise good points, but I don’t have time to reply at the moment.

My understanding...

I would look at it this way…

An 18 year old in A ball would be expected to give up X home runs. Now, if you put a few major league caliber players, “legit stars”, in that same league, the number of home runs would go up and not be a negative indicator for that pitcher. The thinking, as I understand it, is that this is an 18 year old giving up HR to players who are superior, in part, due to their age. Thus, the # of HR given up in the Cuban league would not project well to the MLB.

That said, he didn’t give up a ton of HR’s so that aspect doesn’t really matter.

I get that

I should have asked how many of those stars are on calibar with MLB talent (woujld they be AA, AAA, AAAA, MLB, Theriot, AS, et al) here? I would think they would be lesser since the best ones seem to defect.

Also, how many of those players are top tier talent, are there more top talent players in Cuba’s league than in A or AA ball on rehab at any given time?

Any my main curiosity would be GO/FO rate, since i dont care if he strikes out none if he gets 60%+ ground outs and can keep his pitch count down

It's sort of a moot point, right?

I don’t know how many of those guys are in Cuba. But the “excuse” people have given for his poor numbers is that he’s playing guys much older/better than him, that he wouldn’t have to face if he were in the states, because of the tiered talent leagues here. So I was looking for a way that could affect his numbers. Couldn’t find one.

But Cuban ball would also get weird because you have older guys in A-ball who aren't stars

Even if he doesn’t have MLB talent, an experienced 27 year old is going to be a harder out than an 18 year old.

What I like

Is the IP for 16 starts – could indicate that he’s going deep into games. Great news for a young kid. He’s getting out of jams. He’s surviving the quick hook, common in Cuban style baseball.

Pitching to contact, he could project as a Brandon Webb type. Hopefully not as a Livan Hernandez, but that wouldn’t be terrible either. With strong infield defense, an innings-eater will be valuable.

i'll wet my pants

if he’s livan hernandez

that would be a dream

Yes, Livan Hernandez would be an amazing outcome.
55/45

From Theo’s first Cubs press conference there was this quote.

“I should probably have another press conference right now to resign because my popularity definitely has to be at an all-time high right now,” he joked. “It has peaked and it’s only going to go downhill because, in baseball, when you make moves, if you do a great job, you’re right 55 percent of the time So the other 45 percent of the time you’re going to tick some people off. I understand that.”.

I don’t see it ever refenced here, but it is important to remember.

This move could fall into that 45% side, but it is at least consistent with Theo and Jed’s stated philosophy:
1. Younger
2. Deeper pitching
3. Build the organization up to build up the team
4. Pay for future performance, not past performance

Great post

thanks for the insight. Looking forward to having you around more.

Nice to see you back, Shawn.

I think “trust the scouts” is going to have to be our mantra with these signings out of Cuba. Not that it hurts to look at his numbers – and FIP is certainly better than ERA – but the fact that Concepcion is only 18 and still able to have that degree of success weighs heavily for me.

I see it as a gamble

It’s not cheap, but in our market these are the kind of gambles we can take.

To me, the most puzzling thing is that he is getting a MLB contract. From what I understand, that means he goes on the 40 man. They are going to be tying up a 40 man spot for a long time with him. He has to be at least 3-4 years away from being ready.

Probably 3

The 40 man spot may have been an expectation. I’m trusting Theo. Here’s hoping Soler is signed, even if it ties up another spot.

I think it is worth the chance.

I am sure homework was done on this kid ( 19), and they thought it was worth the risk. At 19 I am sure he has room to get stronger.
Anyone know his height/weight?

Per wikipedia, he's a 6'2" lefty with a slender build.

Link

LOL at his wikipedia page.
Gerardo Concepción Pérez (born in 1993 or 1994) is a Cuban baseball pitcher who is a free agent.
It's wikipedia. If I want him to be born in 97 I can make it happen.
Just don't change his name
So...

Gerardo Concepción Pérez aka Rodrigo Lopez (born in 1993 or 1994, or even 1997) is a Cuban baseball pitcher who is a free agent.

That work?

Dude needs a BCB nickname

in the worst way

Ok, check the site now. See if it stuck. lol
it did
Some punk thinks he can undo my changes. I WILL WIN THIS BATTLE!
That does not seem to be going well for you...
It's my page right now!
I've never edited Wikipedia before

I know what I want to edit, but I’m too old school to figure out how to get it to acknowledge that Bob Stanley didn’t cover first in Game 6, 1986.

If the page doesn't have the lock on it, anybody can just edit anything.
I'm totally on the verge of being banned from wiki editing. I think the site mod's are giving me warnings.
Bahaha, my company can't do anything on wiki for awhile now. lol
On the "Bob Stanley" page

hit edit.

See an editable screen that says “Highlight” with 4 entries below.

How do I get it to say he never covered first?

Pandora’s Box, open1

I can't, they banned my IP for awhile. lol
There are multiple edits. If you see it in a certain area, try hitting the first edit you see under that section.
done, and thanks.
you should have done a print screen after it stuck and then put it up here!
ha yep or even add "possibly 2001, but could have been born in 1989" to the rest and call it good.
I thought you meant 97, not '97

And that would be funnier.

would it be wrong to note that he has been traded

to Saskatchewan of the CFL for Maple Syrup and the Mountie?

I'm not gonna complain about this.

I’d rather see that $7 million spent on someone who has a chance to contribute in the future, than on a filler for this years team. I’m not much into any of the scouting, but I trust Theo and Jed.

Think of it as a gamble.

Theo is spending $1M/year, as a gamble that this kid turns into a superstar. If the gamle pays off, this is someone that will contribute in the future. If not, it’s not a significant outlay of resources.

Think of it as a possible down payment on Chase Headley
To bad their aren't GB% numbers
Goldstein and Parks' reactions...

In their podcast for BP this week, Kevin Foldstein and Jason Parks responded to the signing by saying that 7 mil. Is kind of insane for Concepcion but could be a product of a last gasp for IFAs before the new CBA. Concepcion profiles as a 4/5 according to what they hear from scouts (he also struck out less than 1 batter per 2 innings in Cuba). That means giving more to Concepcion than Taillon, who who’s expected to be an ace, is a petty big sum. I think I’m more optimistic about what this says about the Cubs aggression with IFAs this year than what it says about Conception.

Lotta iPhone fails in that post.
if taillon was able to negotiate with every team

he would have gotten more than $7mill

Yeah, perhaps the *best* think about this signing...

is that it indicates the Cubs are going to bid aggressively on IFA’s this year. I suppose there’s also a downside if that is what they’re doing and this signing tips their hand to other GM’s.

You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Bleed Cubbie Blue to post a comment.